Virgin Cruise FO: Accepting Interest...

[High_To_Low]

I see on the VB recruitment website that VOz has just opened up recruitment for CZFO's. Has anyone got any inside information as to when recruitment will start, or how many CZFO's they are looking for, realisitic minimums they are looking for? etc I know there has been much "slagging out" on here with regards to the CZFO position and the conditions so if it could be kept civilised that would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[High_To_Low]

sorry...CRUISE FO

[Howard Hughes]

When will they start? They already have...:E

[biggles7374]

1,000 hours fixed wing experience (turbine experience desirable)
500 hours on multi-engine aircraft
Current ICAO ATPL (or Australian CPL with passes in all ATPL theory subjects), command multi-engine instrument rating and class one medical
English Language fluency (written and verbal comprehension)
An ability to communicate effectively in a dynamic operational environment
The desire to learn and grow
Ability to live and work in Australia
B777 type rating desirable
Wide body long haul experience desirable
The desire to learn and grow

[neville_nobody]

I don't think the competition would be to stiff if the salary and conditions remain as they are and no chance of progression......but you never know!

Curious to know how many type rated guys join to be Cruise FOs. That would mean you have resigned as an FO from a foreign carrier I presume.

[The Hill]

Not only resign, but be on $59,500 :ugh:

[43Inches]

Not to mention, at VOz you wont be flying 1960's death traps just waiting for an engine implosion to subtract one member of your family.

No, just watching and hoping the FO knows how to glide the thing when it goes quiet on short final....


$59,990 is excellent money compared to what some of these GA scoundrels are offering.


Until you realise that FOs on regional turboprops earn almost the same amount or more.

[j3pipercub]

QF gets tool of the year.

[Piano Man]

$59,990 is excellent money compared to what some of these GA scoundrels are offering. Not to mention, at VOz you wont be flying 1960's death traps just waiting for an engine implosion to subtract one member of your family.



:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[flamingmoe]

Wind up alert people! And if it isn't...well QF....see previous comments.

[eternity]

Touche j3 :ok::ok:

[Trimmed_Flaps]

Up to 8 slots.

Dont expect any career advancement on the 777 as you will eventually have to transfer to VB if you ever want to land an aircraft again.

Good luck.

[solowflyer]

I am sure your local HJ's store manager make that much

[smiling monkey]

Now, if i have made some kind of mistake please tell me, but for me, the decision is Red and Silver... I mean Black and White.

Mate, the minimum requirements for VOz is no different for VB. You still need a minumum of 1000 hours TT and 500 hours multi before they will even look at your application. Please explain how you expect to get those hours by by-passing GA? :rolleyes:

[the air up there]

j3

QF gets tool of the year.

Big call on Feb 2nd mate.

[KRUSTY 34]

So, "as an older bloke entering the industry..." W'QF, how much of a pay cut will you have to take to become a Wide body International Flight Deck crew member? :ooh:

Also; "young and expanding fast" does not always equal viable career opportunity, especially when your backseat experience counts for D!CK! :=

[an3_bolt]

$59,990 is excellent money compared to what some of these GA scoundrels are offering. Not to mention, at VOz you wont be flying 1960's death traps just waiting for an engine implosion to subtract one member of your family.

Great return on investment for the money and effort spent on gaining your licence and qualifications - NOT.

You would make more money cleaning tables and pumping coffee at the coffee shop where I get my coffee........:ok:

But I imagine your comparison between flying GA and a 777 has to be accurate if you are so insular and can not look past your navel. Do yourself a chocolate flavour and apply to "reputable" airlines around the world. It is a global business these days you know........ :ugh:

But then again - the pay might be right and the job perfect for someone who can envisage their future as a licenced radio operator/seat warmer. Sorry what was that - you think you pilot guy ehhh?:D

[GADRIVR]

Lester,
"I cannot understand how in the middle of the greatest pilot shortage in recent Oz history VAust was able to put up such a hilarious CFO agreement and people actually flocked to it."
Because they have no choice. Thats why! Have a good look around GA, it's a joke generally speaking.
Until we have an EFFECTIVE GA/Regional union, this will continue to happen.
The bloody airline types just don't remember where they came from or just don't care.
End of rant!!!:sad:

[43Inches]

What other industry has separate unions for every employer within it?

Why have a separate union for Virgin/Qantas/Regional and GA except to divide pilots up and prevent any sort of cohesive action if required. Divided everyone just fends for themselves which will continue to force conditions downwards, the comments justifying these salaries are proof of that.

[KRUSTY 34]

GA's always been a joke (at least in the way I think you mean it). I spent 9 years there, and I can say with confidence I saw the very best, and the very worst in both people and operators. As for "bloody airline types" not remembering where they came from, I can tell you I used those exact words many years ago myself. It's just not particularily true.

As for having no choice, that has always been the retreat of those willing to take the fast track even when rational thought may point to the contrary.

It's a free Country, you are free to extoll the virtues of what amounts to be an international embarresment in Pilots Term and Conditions. People such as Lester, myself and quite a few others are equally free to comment from the other side of the fence.

But we all have a choice. If your choice leads to a viable career in aviation, we'll eat our words. If it doesn't, then in years to come you may reflect that those "bloody airline types" just may have known what they were talking about.

Good luck,

Krusty.

[an3_bolt]

Because they have no choice. Thats why! Have a good look around GA, it's a joke generally speaking.


There are plenty of choices and opportunities out there. Get out there and look for them - think outside the square. Thinking that you must have an airline job where HQ is in Brisbane or Sydney is extremely nieve.:= Use your brain..... plenty of fun to be had through out the world..... living O/S can be great if your into it - or ever heard of commuting to work?

The bloody airline types just don't remember where they came from or just don't care.

Good try :}- but off the mark. You will find that most know where they came from and the experiences that they went through are still as fresh as the day thet they occured - from washing the bosses car through to scaring the living bejesus out of yourself on that dark stormy single engine IFR night freight (...or please insert similar...). Some have fond memories of GA - some do not.

Of course not all airline pilots are ex GA - there are some ex RAAF, and some who went through a cadet program - so in that regard you are 100% correct. I would suggest that they are in the minority however.

Personally - I chose to go overseas to get turbine time and then overseas again to get an airline job. Best thing I ever did for my own personal development and career. :ok:But that is the choice that I made instead of whinging and resigning myself to mediocrity. Just gotta get out there and find the best "global" business opportunity.

Reality is that you will probably have to pack and move to find any descent job in aviation. Suck it up and get out there guys....but I do know that working for $59,000 odd :eek: on a 777 is pure exploitation - go work in a coffee shop instead :ok: If you want a pay rise - go work on the Sydney trains as a guard....put another $20,000 with shift penalties on top of the 777 job......

[novice110]

an3_bolt

How does working in a coffee shop, or at Sydney trains as a gaurd even compare to the experience gained in a B777??

Are you saying you'd rather make coffee for a little more money than be a pilot on a B777? That money may not be enough for you and me to get by, but it's obviously enough for others with family help, investments etc..

With respect, I think you've lost perspective.

[GADRIVR]

AN_3 Bolt.....a bit naive mate.
Reality is this. The situation that leads to blokes having to take this job is easy to understand, family, bills to pay etc. Given the situation, I'd take it as well.
Remembering what it was like in GA and doing something positive about it are two very different things.
Until an effective union is in place, these jobs will continue to pop up. People at the bottom cannot do much about the current situation....people at the top of the tree can....if they want!
As to the sanctimonious rantings that basically say....don't take the job, I'd answer.... rot!
Krusty........can't see what your point is apart from "I'm right Jack"!
Geeez.:ugh:

[novice110]

Who do you perceive to be the 'top of the tree'?
And what can they do about it?

[an3_bolt]

a bit naive mate

...well actually have been there and done that in your situation.....but I took a different course of action when faced with the same decision.

But I think you don't get my drift - I am not having a go at you in this regard - simply saying that there are options you may simply have not seen or considered.

With that regard:
How does working in a coffee shop, or at Sydney trains as a gaurd even compare to the experience gained in a B777??
.....so the 777 gig is just work experience? Sounds like it as effectively you are subsidising their operation. A bit like the dude who got the doctorite at university but gets paid less than a checkout chick at coles when looking after the universities nuclear physics lab? Hmmmm - but cruise FO hours in a logbook must look so attractive (....by the way when applying O/S some airlines do not even acknowledge cruise FO/SO what you want to dress it up with" hours...)." But I imagine you have researched that in case it all goes tits up or does not expand for the next 15 years etc etc.

Are you saying you'd rather make coffee for a little more money than be a pilot on a B777?
...yep. How much have you invested in monetary terms? How much have you invested in terms of your years? Pain and suffering? If you can get paid more for an "unskilled" job or semi - trained job (couple of weeks on the job training for a train guard) - what is wrong with the picture of being paid less to fly the 777?

That money may not be enough for you and me to get by, but it's obviously enough for others with family help, investments etc..
... so let me get this right - working for an airline as a heavy jet pilot - and having to rely on others generosity or previous investments to simply make it from day to day and pay the bills? And this is acceptable for an airline environment? How healthy is it to have a financially stressed crew member on a flight deck?

People at the bottom cannot do much about the current situation....people at the top of the tree can....if they want!


.....really? So you are not into self help? The governments fault? Others fault have to fix it?
By the way - just in case you do not know - there are plenty of people at "the top of the tree" (your words not mine as I believe that everyone is in it together...) trying to change what you and others are going through for the better.

Summing up: If you gotta absolutey have that shiney jet seat in Australia right now, today - pull out that VISA card and melt away - as you will be the one paying - today, tomorrow, the next day, the day after that........ But is there another way....

[j3pipercub]

This industry has turned to worms, with the help of that attitude. Just go to J* and tell them you'll fly for 28k. Just get it over and done with...

[empacher48]

Jeez, some pretty passionate responses here.

I guess there are guys here who will take this and see it as an opportunity to move up in their careers. Yes the pay may not be flash in comparison to QANTAS or Cathay or Air NZ. With time to command with the legacy carriers somewhere around the 20 year plus mark. I wouldn't want to be making beds and serving the Captain coffee for the next 5 to 10 years before I get to move into the Right seat for another 10 years..

According to the VAus recruiting page it does state:

"Opportunities to progress from Cruise Relief First Officer to First Officer may exist within the company provided a CRFO has sufficient appropriate experience. It is envisaged that in line with forecasted aircraft delivery dates these opportunities will be limited"

It doesn't say that opportunities to progress to First Officer will never happen and no one will be able to predict what is going to happen, but those CRFOs in the company with suitable experience may find themselves F/Os in 2 or 3 years time, a lot sooner than with a legacy carrier - it may take longer too, point is we just don't know.

I have put my name down for it, just under $60K a year is better than what I am on now flying as an F/O on a turboprop for just under $30K outside of Australia, we all make sacrifices for our careers and what we want to do.

[flamingmoe]

Given the short sighted attitudes of many on this thread, is it any suprise that the CEO of Voz "dared" insult our profession with the CRZ F/O T&C's on offer?

If you were a CEO, what would you do??.....the race to the bottom is nearly complete.

[The Hill]

I dont care how you dress it up, $60k for a B777 gig is an insult

[strim]

What VA is offering is a disgrace.

I have worked hard to get where I am in GA and enjoy my job (G1 MEIFR and occasional CHTR). I basically work 9-5 and earn slightly more than what's on offer at VA. Throughout my time I have enjoyed a great relationship, bought a house and spend plenty of time with family and friends. I've had the opportunity to move on but could not have achieved/enjoyed these things on a regional pay.

I have got this far never having paid for hours, endorsements, renewals etc...

Now why a person would spend so much money on a licence, ratings, hour building etc and then accept a contract like this is completely beyond my comprehension. I can only put it down to lack of maturity or too little time in the job. Flying is not life, it is a job, and while I think the 777 is a brilliant machine and would love to fly one, I'm not going to sacrifice my current situation/lifestyle with such a backwards step. Nor would I accept a job where they said, congratulations, now pay us 30k.

The main question I would ask those who have registered interest is, why is it VA has no clear path for progression within its ranks? How is this attractive?

Any CFO's out there want to talk us through a typical roster? Then we can compare it to QF SO and see how big the divide really is.

[A Comfy Chair]

With time to command with the legacy carriers somewhere around the 20 year plus mark. I wouldn't want to be making beds and serving the Captain coffee for the next 5 to 10 years before I get to move into the Right seat for another 10 years..


And yet you want to fly for a company that will have you earning about 80k a year less while you wait, and by its own admission says there will be extremely limited promotional opportunites?

If you think that 2 to 3 years is a possibility, you've got rocks in your head. The point is that there will be a stream of applicants for VA, and you can bet your bottom dollar they will be for Direct Entry F/O positions, while all the cruise F/O's sit there logging hour after hour of time that is getting them nowhere, but being paid 80k less than their Qantas brothers for doing the same thing.

[Trimmed_Flaps]

For anyone considering this you WILL be much better off waiting for VB.

VB have been recruiting and will need pilots. The requirements are the same. The pay and conditions at VB are MUCH better.

If you join VA (as a CFO) with the bare minimum experience, you WILL eventually have to transfer to VB.

Good luck with your choices.

[rodrigues]

The minimum requirements for this job make it even worse. Perhaps with lower entry requirements, they'd attract willing lower-houred Pilots who drool over the prospect of being anywhere near a 777-3. The position has been rightfully compared to a QF S/O, who only require half the time for Direct Entry, and will earn nearly double. That is :mad: pathetic.

[biggles7374]

The minimums are the same for DEFO with Virgin Blue.

Why anyone with those minimums would apply for Cruise FO when they can apply for DEFO with VB is beyond me.

Biggles

[Captain Dart]

...but it's a BIG SHINY JET!

[Goat Whisperer]

May need a few more Second Officers (come on, let's call them what they are, it's not an insult, that's their role), heard some of the existing ones are getting a shot at window seats on company 737s. They won't know what do with the (nearly) 100% payrise.

[Trimmed_Flaps]

some of the existing ones are getting a shot at window seats on company 737s.

As I was saying.........

Why waste 2 years of your life?

:ugh:

[training wheels]

When you do the training for a type rating as a Cruise F/O position, is there less emphasis on the take-off, approach and landing phases, or is it the same as any other F/O type rating? Just curious.

[The Bunglerat]

I've been out of GA for a few years now, but a combination of circumstance and too much free time found me at a GA airfield earlier today. Basically I was in the area, so thought I would pop in and reminisce about the old days.

Turns out it was less reminiscing, and more cold shudders at the miserable sight I beheld. Can't say I ever enjoyed GA all that much to begin with, but it was still gut-wrenching to catch up with some hard-working, dedicated drivers who are simply doing whatever they can to climb the greasy pole. Just when I start getting disenchanted with terms and conditions at my place of employment, an afternoon with these guys certainly put me back in my place, and made me remember that I'm not better than them - just luckier.

As an airline pilot, I think the V-Oz conditions are disgraceful, but it's easy for me to say that from the perspective of someone who already flies for an airline. On the other hand, some poor bugger getting paid peanuts, flying a clapped-out, questionably unsafe piston-engine bugsmasher, may simply be unable to make that distinction - and I don't think it's fair for us to pass judgment on them as a consequence. Or in other words, it's about not criticising someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes first - and whilst most of us have at some time in our career worn those very same shoes, I daresay it was such a long time ago for some that they've simply forgotten how bad it was.

If I was stuck in GA and had the option to step up to the majors - even if just for a pissy Cruise F/O slot - I can see how it would make for a compelling argument. Thankfully I don't have to consider it, but I bear no ill will towards those who do.

[greenslopes]

Well said Bunglerat.

[Zoomy]

Greenslopes, you beat me to it. Very well said Bunglerat. :ok:

[G.A. Boy]

I agree Bunglerat, the best arguement by far on this thread!

[Capt Fathom]

If I was stuck in GA and had the option to step up to the majors - even if just for a pissy Cruise F/O slot - I can see how it would make for a compelling argument.

Well maybe! But what is next?

Nice aeroplane, nice hotels (well probably not!). More money for the time being.

But the position leads to nowhere. You may as well tough it out where you are, and move up the greasy pole, gaining marketable experience along the way.

[Colonel Braddock]

Gentlemen,

I put in an application months ago through internal sources and it's looking positive with interview soon. Regardless of what YOU think about this position it's a chance for hard working GA pilots like me who have done their time to become part of a professional flight crew and fly with the big boys. I've only just picked up heavy turbo-prop experience and would pay my bond out in a heart beat to sit in the 777... and with my experience I think they'd be lucky to have me and others alike who have slogged it out in GA.

My sources tell me they are hiring big and all the people who are stuck flying turbo-props or bug smashers in their 30's will miss out with your current attitudes!! :ugh:

PM me for any (private) details if anyone wants info on the interview and testing process. :ok:

Salute.

[psycho joe]

Are you really a colonel ???

[flamingmoe]

If you're serious colonel, then you deserve what you get, it couldn't be put any plainer than it has been on this thread, you'd be well advised to listen.

Enter at your own risk, but dont complain in 12 months about your upgrade, dont complain about DE F/O's taking "your" seat, dont complain about the cabin crew being paid more than you,and dont say you werent warned.

A 777 job is now just a "slightly" better GA gig ...well done boys, you're selling your very expensive career down the river.:ok:

[Compylot]

:ok:Gentlemen,

I put in an application months ago through internal sources and it's looking positive with interview soon. Regardless of what YOU think about this position it's a chance for hard working GA pilots like me who have done their time to become part of a professional flight crew and fly with the big boys. I've only just picked up heavy turbo-prop experience and would pay my bond out in a heart beat to sit in the 777... and with my experience I think they'd be lucky to have me and others alike who have slogged it out in GA.


GOODAY and kind regards sir!

All the very best in your new position, it certainly must be very exciting to finally become part of a professional flight crew and fly a heavy twin like the 777! :ok:

I know that you may have just picked up some heavy turbo-prop experience and obviously this has helped immensely in gaining your new professional flight crew position, but what I need to ask you if you don't mind, is how important is it to have heavy single time when applying for a heavy turbo prop flight crew position?

Any advice much appreciated :ok:

PM me if you prefer :ok:

[mattgitau]

If, as Biggles has pointed out 'The minimums are the same for DEFO with Virgin Blue', whats wrong with applying for both and taking whichever opportunity presents itself first.

It seems everyone seems to focus on the Cruise FO wage. Its not always necessarily about the money, its about and lifestyle and opportunities, and everyone's individual circumstances are different! You would certainly not be doing your career any harm in taking a Cruise FO position. If you dont - someone else will. If I was the boss of VOz, or any airline for that matter and I could get away with paying my staff less than I had to - then I would, it kinda makes sense to me!

Reading these posts just highlights to me why leaving GA in Australia was the best thing I ever did. I took a chance, when an opportunity presented itself, and have never looked back.

You can't realistically ridicule anyone for taking this opportunity.

Good on you guys who have applied, and in the process hope to change your circumstances. I wish you all the best.

[j3pipercub]

I AM still in GA and get paid more than this. And even when I was getting paid 30k to fly a bongo, I still thought the FO wage was an insult. Good luck guys, hope you get what you deserve.

[empacher48]

I AM still in GA and get paid more than this. And even when I was getting paid 30k to fly a bongo, I still thought the FO wage was an insult. Good luck guys, hope you get what you deserve.

Thanks j3. I just hope that by getting what I deserve, I get to live with my family. I get to live in a country where I don't have to worry about the military breaking into my house to take me to prison because I might have said the wrong thing while at work. I get to enjoy the outdoor pursuits and hobbies that I can't do here because it is illegal. Oh and also the ambulances here haven't run for the last three months because they don't have any money to buy fuel for them!

I guess moving over here has given me a whole new outlook on life and it has shown me that money does not equal happiness. Everyone has their own reasons for applying for these jobs.

And oh for the record, I haven't just applied for VOz, but also Jetstar and VB too.

[j3pipercub]

So Empacher,

Was it that same military that came over, dragged you from your home and threw you in the RHS? Or was it, oh my god I'm gonna say it, YOUR CHOICE?!???.....

So you went overseas to try and further your career. Sorry that it doesn't seem to have worked for you (and it really mustn't have if you're applying for a CZFO). You probably didn't do your homework on the country you were intending on living, you just saw a turboprop and everything else faded into the background. It wasn't until a few months later you realised the contract you signed was pitiful...

There's no point arguing with you guys/girls. Your minds are made up, however follishly. I'll just leave you with this....

IF THEY PAY PEANUTS WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU...

And quit comparing GA to airlines, there SHOULD NOT be any comparison in Terms and Conditions. Besides, you've still gotta go out and get that 500 multi to apply anyhow.

j3

[43Inches]

I find it pathetic in the level of people justifying this ridiculous salary.

All of you chose to be pilots!!! Now that you've shelled out thousands to get a licence (some $80k+) you just jump at a position paying half the going rate, flying machines that should be the top pay scale to retire on. Why didn't you just save your money and do something else rather than winge how bad GA is and I want to fly a jet yesterday.

The only thing wrong with GA is the lower end pay. If the aircraft or operations are dangerous, report the company and leave.

I have never felt sorry for any Australian pilot because they can easily leave and take up another profession in this country. For those who moved overseas to fly for a living well that was YOUR choice.

What is being said here is advice to try to stop the deterioration in terms and conditions in this country.

These lower salaries are being used to compete directly with airlines that pay reasonable wages, so what do you think the next step will be? Your airline will not pay more (they have all you guys accepting their terms), however the others have reason to PAY LESS!

[empacher48]

Yes it was my choice to make the move here. I did it to further my career, my next step will be to further my career.

I do not regret making the move over here, after 9 years in GA it was a shot to make it into the airlines at a time when no one else was hiring. Anyway the flying is fantastic and it has shown me that money isn't the be all and end all. You should have your own values to consider your life a successful one. As I said, to me, its family, health and a job that I enjoy. In that order now.

I realise there are people who wish the T&Cs to be the same as they were 20 or 30 years ago. Unfortunately it will never be "like it once was" pilots are no longer the demigods they once were and every country on earth is in a race to the bottom.

[Al E. Vator]

GA may seem rough but it is invaluable experience. The skills, thought processes and maturity gained in GA are FAR more valuable to potential employers than a cruisy CRZ FO slot with VA.

Unfortunately a CRZ FO means nothing. It's a dead-end street. It's the same as having been a S/O with Qantas for 10 years - you are unemployable elsewhere. Indeed the time may be regarded as a liability - you may be seen to lack motivation and too indoctrinated with big company/cruisy living mentality. The major difference is that at least with QF (shrinking operation though it maybe) you still progress to F/O and Captain. No such guarantee exists with VA.

Beware shiny jet syndrome. It's nice to see enthusiasm at the joy of working for VA but as it stands it's not a good career move. Yes living in Karratha and banging about in a rusty 206 or Baron isn't as glamourous as looking at pretty FA's but the latter means nothing when it comes to your attractiveness to potential employers.

[KRUSTY 34]

empacher48,

Good God Almighty!!! :rolleyes:

[novice110]

In my opinion there is significantly more opportunity with Voz as a cruise F/O, than sadly with QF as an S/O.
Not the way I'd like to see it either, and maybe a little pessimistic. But nonetheless in simple terms a new contract verses an old and withering one.

Good luck to those who join, you'll never look back.

[neville_nobody]

I do not regret making the move over here

At the moment when life is cruisy you do bugger all flying, and have long layovers. V probably is great fun, and now is the time to experience it.

However if things ramp up a bit I think your contract could bight you in the arse very hard. Flying from one side of the world to the other one day off then off to the other side of the world I don't think would be much fun. Even less so when you are getting pay peanuts. Not sure if V do it however I know Jestar count days off overseas as RDOs!!

Anyway the flying is fantastic

As a cruise FO??:rolleyes:

In my opinion there is significantly more opportunity with Voz as a cruise F/O

Assuming that V will let you to go VB and VB will take you!!
If not I would suggest you are probably in the same position as QF 2nd Officers. I also believe that there is no seniority at V so in theory they could just flush out Emirates and fill the RHS will those guys.

[novice110]

'you are probably in the same position as QF 2nd Officers'

I disagree, you would be in a growing company instead of a contracting one.

Of course the pay would be what, triple at least, but how long will that last?

[Trimmed_Flaps]

there is no seniority at V so in theory they could just flush out Emirates and fill the RHS will those guys.

Or indeed the LHS.

:ouch:

[strim]

QF has progression.

To those who've applied, have you asked yourselves why there is no career path or progression? In fact they have said quite clearly 'opportunities will be limited'.

I would be very sceptical of a company with this attitude. I certainly can't see any positive reason as to why this policy would exist, not for flight crew anyway.

[KRUSTY 34]

Errr... novice110

How's the air on your Planet? :hmm:

[G.A. Boy]

For those of you that think there is no career path for CFOs. VB are arranging slots for interviews with VB after their 24 month bond comes closer to expiry. Some of you may say that why have to go through the interview process again. Those VB guys/gals that transverred to V about a yr ago also had to go through Vs interview process.

[empacher48]

Sorry Neville, you may have got the wrong end of the stick. I don't work for VOz, I've only just applied. :ok:

[Trimmed_Flaps]

Rumour has it the majority of VOz CFO's found out today just how much opportunity there is. :rolleyes:

[KRUSTY 34]

C'mon TF, don't keep it to yourself.

[Zoomy]

IF THEY PAY PEANUTS WHAT DOES THAT MAKE YOU...



A bloody very talented little monkey. :ok:

[B043]

I here there is another payrise about to come for them :ok:.

[Trimmed_Flaps]

Krusty,

Put it this way... If you joined as a CFO without jet time >40T....... you wont be seeing the RHS of the tripler.

:uhoh:

[Trimmed_Flaps]

WannabeQF,

Im not sure. I just heard some sort of upgrade policy was presented to the pilots today.

CFO's WILL have to transfer to VB........ or leave I guess?

:\

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks TF, I kinda' worked that one out for myself back in the beginning. People really need to read the original VA contract. A more cynical document you will never find. I particularily love the part where a CFO after having spent thousands of dollars and years of effort to become qualified, then over a period of no less than six years, is required to resign from Two(2) major airlines, and Re-apply to the same Two(2) major airlines, all just to advance His/Her career with the original carrier! Also, there is nothing in the contract to prevent VA or VB from not accepting the pilot either on the outbound journey or back to VA! More than one golden opportunity to punt an undesireable, aggitator, or non-brownnoser if ever there was one.

It's all well and good to have stars in your eyes. Crikey if we didn't have stars at some stage in our lives then none of us would be flying today, but the "progression" component of the VA contract takes the term "Snake Oil Salesman" to an entirely new level.

There's a lot of flack going back and forth. Quite naturally when you have two different opinions from people with "stars" on one side of the fence, and those who can see this whole thing for what it really is.

If you're hopeing for the EBA negotiations to bring about change in this area, I wouldn't be holding my breath. I've been involved with more than one EBA in the past, and I can tell you apart from maybe a modest pay rise (usually at the sacrifice of some conditions, although in this case I fail to see any conditions to give up in the first place), operational matters such as Minimum crew requirements for a window seat, won't get a look in.

As I said before,

GOOD LUCK!!!

[flyby]

Upgrade Requirements for V-Australia Pilots

Command

Basic Hour Requirements- Command

8000 Total of which 500 hours should be multi Engine command

And Either

2000 Command or First Officer Time on a Wide or Narrow Body RPT Jet > 40 tonnes. A pilot must have a command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement.

Or 1000 Command on Wide Body Jet > 120 tonnes (B767 or above)

Or 250 Sectors as a First Officer on Wide-bodies (767 or above) with a minimum of 50

Sectors completed on V Australia B777 aircraft

The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.

Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.

First Officer

Basic Hour Requirements- First Officer

4000 Total

400 Sectors in a Jet RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes as Co-Pilot or Pilot in Command. A pilot must have a Command endorsement on the aircraft to meet this requirement. 1000 Co-Pilot Hours after Check to Line on RPT aircraft > 40 tonnes is deemed to meet these sector requirements.

CRFO?s who have prior sectors on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes may combine these sectors with CRFO sector?s on the B777 to meet the 400 sector requirement. The minimum number of hours as a First Officer on RPT Jets > 40 tonnes must be 200 hours to take advantage of this provision. For CRFO?s who have prior sectors on an RPT jet a minimum of 50 sectors is required to be on V Australia B777 aircraft. The Company reserves the right to consult with previous employers in respect of sectors flown if added to the 400 sector requirement.

CRFO sectors do not constitute FO sectors unless the above provision is available.

The above requirements may be varied by the GMFO in exceptional circumstances only.

Military aircraft and two crew jets below 40 tonnes will be assessed by the GMFO on a case by case basis to decide if the hours meet the required criteria to be considered for promotion.:yuk::ugh::yuk:

[patienceboy]

Not saying that I agree, but the fact that many Cruise FOs would have to leave to gain the experience for an upgrade has been available on the careers website since inception. It also states that opportunities will be limited.

The lure of a shiny jet should not be underestimated, but it's not ALWAYS best to jump at the first opportunity.

[Dreamshiner]

I worked as a cruise pilot in the past, here's a typical flight:

Turn up in briefing room, prepare all documents with F/O, do the chart (we did Oceanic via NATS so needed a chart with ETOPS circles). With capt's permission notify final fuel. In my experience 40% of capt's consulted and involved you, 40% didn't and the final 20% didn't have a clue how to act in a heavy crew.

On board, program FMC from PF chair as they went to do the walkaround. Get clearance and fill out V speed card. W&B document was my responsibility to complete in outlying airports.

After take off, fill in waypoint times, notify hosties of expected turbulence so they could plan the service. Plan the work schedule based on who was doing landing and who was tired at present.

Rarely got into a seat within 30 minutes of take off, some captains saw it as integral you were involved as much as possible. Some went down the back for a sleep, some never left their seat.

Generally do most comms, most inflight paperwork and weather dictation. NATS you have 5 minutes of activity followed by 1 hour of reading the manuals or paper. Other than that, a 12 hour flight was 2 hours sleeping, 1 hour eating, 1 hour toilet/stretch legs in aft galley/talking to crew, 3/9 hours in a seat.

The company I worked for had an SOP that whenever a CP was in a control seat, they would defer to PF regardless of their role before.

20 minutes before TOD, back into back, look to speak to Ops and give them ETA and get stand, finish up paperwork that you could without getting final Landing/Block times.

After landing, pass all paperwork to capt for signing, prepare new documents for incoming crew and tidy up the mess.

Hotel after meet and greet with incoming crew.

GOOD:
Easy life, good to absorb procedures from the third seat "the throne". Get a decent layover 4x a month (mini holiday - if its a crap crew it drags). 11 colleagues to go away with, 11 new colleagues a week later.

BAD:
Job in mundane, treated as a dick/skivvy by a lot of colleagues (including hosties), could be messed about with by management with respect to upgrade as its an inconvenience for them. Some regulatory authorities and airlines don't value all the time logged towards their thresholds. No T/O or Landings.

Only a fool enters into a job without researching it. If it works for you financially or as career progression then you apply, if you have an aversion or don't fancy it, you don't.

[biton]

Out of interest, does this new policy mean that "CRZFOs" will automatically be offered positions with VB? And on what fleet? Will be interesting to find out how this will all work. What about all the experienced pilots outside of the Virgin group applying for the latest round of recruitment? Will they be overlooked for CRZFOs coming from Vaus? What about all of the VB FOs who transferred to the Ejet and are waiting to come back to the 737? And more worrying, who will replace the CRZFOs? I wonder if that is still a much sought after position....or if it ever was.

[KRUSTY 34]

biton: "Out of interest, does this new policy mean that "CRZFOs" will automatically be offered positions with VB?"

NO!

Read the contract. :=

[littlehurcules]

Your dreaming mate of thinking that you will walk into a window seat at VB after a stint in the galley at VOZ

[flamingmoe]

You asked Biton?? Thats the answer....DYOR.

[KRUSTY 34]

Eaeaasy biton, no need to get too hot under the collar.

Hope your S/A in the cockpit is better than your knowledge of your own company's hireing policy! :ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

So who pulled the retort? Biton or the Mods.

Don't think it would be the mods, But for the benefit of others it went something like this...

"I dont give a @#%* about the contract Champ.. I work for VB...etc, etc,...":ok:

[biton]

Yes, I deleted it because I took a deep breath after I'd posted it. Schoolboy error. I'll let you in on something you may not know about VB, we don't know much at all about what is happening at Vaus. They are run as two separate companies with separate recruitment and conditions, etc. You wouldn't believe the lengths one has to go to to see a copy of the Vaus contract. Now, I don't know too many people working at Vaus which is why I asked the questions here. So now you know that it's not just a simple matter to "read the contract" as you so gleefully told me to do. Is it really that unreasonable that I should ask the questions I did on here? You act like I offended you in some way by asking them. Perhaps you should take a deep breath too.

[Captain Dart]

They are indeed. A colour full-page ad from Emirates recruiting for First Officers was in my last two 'Flight' magazines (and the aircraft depicted was a Boeing 777).

[Reeltime]

I don't blame the guys who are accepting the job at all, they are exercising their right to make a decision that suits them, it's still a free country (sort of!).

The real villains are the architects of this contract, the envious and mean spirited Voz management. They saw an opportunity to screw pilots and they took it...big time.

Make no mistake, if QF management could get away with it, that's exactly the type of contract that would exist in mainline.

This is the thing about airline management, they hate pilots the most (even more than cabin crew and engineers). They are the enemy, not your fellow pilots. If an airline manager could take food off your table in order to increase his bonus, he would.

Think about that when your next EBA rolls around!

[FireBatHero]

Eaeaasy biton, no need to get too hot under the collar.

Hope your S/A in the cockpit is better than your knowledge of your own company's hireing policy! :ugh:


Hmmmmm....

[KRUSTY 34]

Well said Reeltime. Goes to the heart of the matter doesn't it.

biton, consider the breath taken. Appologies for the slur, I retract it unconditionally. It gets a little snippy in hear sometimes, especially when not in possesion of all the facts. Not sure where I got my copy of the "contract", but if you can get a hold of one, you will see that it was most definitely drafted by the pilot's natural enemy, as so well put by Reeltime!

[On Guard]

Why would Emirates take Cruise F/O's as F/O's when they have plenty more experienced applications? I think these guys are kidding themselves, their only option is into VB which is a good opportunity considering the experience some of them have.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong and this happening but I doubt it very much, maybe Cruise F/O to S/O at Cathay?

[Dreamshiner]

Personally I don't think there is anything bad working as a Cruise Pilot for a year or so, there is a lot to absorb working in a commercial heavy jet environment without having to worry/contend with the flying bit too. it a gentle exposure that certainly helps (please bear in mind, you still have to do the full TR course, pass it and any subsequent OPC/LPC's). You are fully conversant with the aircraft and can easily perform the function of PNF in an emergency if another pilot is incapacitated.

Cruise Pilots exist because they facilitate current regulatory requirements about flight time and rest. A few years ago airlines made do with 2 pilots who managed their own rest/sleep patterns. Now its felt that 2 fully aware pilots are required during all phases of flight (even flying a over an ocean and position reporting every hour).

I thought I had absorbed enough from the third seat after 6 months, however my time to upgrade wasn't up to me. The only thing that should be insisted upon by the union/regulatory authority is that the cruise pilots hired should have a definite upgrade/promotion scheme in place with the company. Or do what the company I worked for did, fly 767 as a cruise pilot then after serving your apprenticeship move down the 757 (which was also in their fleet).

Virgin are adhering to the rules set out by CASA and doing this in the cheapest way possible (by hiring cruise pilots), as a commercial operation it makes good business acumen/sense to do so. However it is worth remembering that every cruise pilot has already paid the best part of AUD200,000 to attain their licence to be in a position to provide that cheaper alternative (opposed to employing a full FO) to the airline. The have also went into further debt by agreeing to be bonded on the 777.

As a result it would be nice if the chief pilot/ops director kept this in mind and rewarded them in the future. It's a shame in the current economic climate the balance sheet has the power.

[Dreamshiner]

B043 - I don't believe the rumours you heard for a second. VOz are hiring for their requirement. The only middle eastern operator that uses cruise pilots I know of at present is Qatar. A lot of other airlines (Emirates being one) if flying a heavy crew do it with either 2 FO's and a capt or 2 capt's and 1 FO.

Also if true, all these airlines are also quite capable of advertising and training applicants to their own SOP's without using an airline in a different regulatory authority and bonding them (if they so choose) directly. Which makes me wonder why skimming pilots from this scheme would be attractive to them?

Emirates and Etihad are still airlines that are seen as aspirational due to the lifestyle and benefits that come with the job. They have no shortage of applicants and therefore put their hours threshold pretty high. I am in no doubt that some pilots with 2/3000 hours would consider dropping from FO to CRP just to get a foot in the door.

[KRUSTY 34]

I think you'll find that any VA CFO applying to Emirates would have to possess the minimum 2000 hours jet time, exclusive of time spent as a backseater. I have heard that some of the VA CFO's have "real" jet time, and is it any wonder that these people would be looking to move on. By not offering a clearly defined career path, VA management have almost certainly guarenteed it!

As for the rest, well, unless they have ATPL and a competative level of other experience, then their options I'm afraid appear limited. :ooh:

[neville_nobody]

Emirates minimums are 4000 total 2000 on Medium size jet, (I assume A320/737). I highly doubt there would be to many Crz FO's who would have that experience and the ones that do would probably have a good shot at any airline anywhere in the world.

[AerocatS2A]

It used to be that a 2nd Officer position was recognised as being in a bit of a holding pattern, you didn't get to do any flying, but at least the pay was good, the lifestyle might be alright and you got yourself into a large international airline. In 5 years you'd be in the right hand seat and it'd all be worth it. In the mean time you take your pay, enjoy the staff travel, and make the most of having all care and no responsibility. This thing with VOZ seems to be taking those few things that made the job worthwhile away. Crap pay, crap job, crap career advancement. You'd could get $10,000 more than that sitting in the right hand seat of a turboprop.

But you have no choice, you need to get into a heavy jet, you need to get out of GA, and it's more money than you were earning in GA right?

That argument works when there is pilot surplus and I understand that when it comes down to a choice between surviving and not surviving, you take what you can get, but these are not those times boys. The airline industry is on the way up. The middle companies are hiring a lot of pilots and the top companies will be hiring soon too. This is the one time when you really can make a stand and say "I won't accept the first job that comes my way, I will only take a job that pays me what I'm worth." There is only one person who sets your wage, it's not those who have gone before you, it's not your prospective employer, it's you. If you accept low pay for a job then you are telling the world "this is what my job is worth, this is what I am worth." And you know what? It's true, when you accept **** pay, you are worth **** pay, and you make it just that much more difficult for everyone else to get what they think they are worth.

Of course that's easy for me to say. I don't want the job anyway, regardless of pay, because I don't want to be an SO, I'm here to fly aeroplanes, not watch other people do it. That's for me personally, I don't mean to disparage other pilots who see being an SO as a good career move. Indeed if I was younger I might look at an SO position with good career advancement, but VOZ doesn't seem to offer that.

[Dreamshiner]

I must admit, I've never heard of anyone waiting 5 years to move up.

What a lot of people are missing is as a CRP, you don't do pushback and start, taxi (not that you do much in a Boeing when the capt has a tiler), take off and 2 minutes later autopilot goes on.

On the decent you miss out on decent planning (however if you are on the ball you sit in the third seat and do it yourself and see how you'd compare), slowing the plane, hand flying for a further 2 minutes before landing and shut down is omitted from the CRP remit.

Other than that you observe everything else, manipulate the autopilot, dodge round thunderstorms, make requests from ATC related to better airmanship and do most radio work and all paperwork.

There are worse jobs in aviation and some airlines place higher credence on this opposed to pootling about in a twin piston in the middle of nowhere.

Again, with respect to this role, do your homework, do your sums and then apply if its the right move for you, if its not hold off as it appears there is an upturn in Australian aviation.

Also hope all the ex-Ansett and grandpa/granny-visa holders flying for Easyjet in the UK don't want to come home and make it that little bit harder for you.

[rog747]

i am ex airline ops and some safety (30 years) but not a pilot.

i appreciate (kinda) what a cruise f/o is...
he would most likely be a more junior guy who gets big-jet experience for in-flight duties only as part of a 'heavy crew' as needed by legislation for L/Haul ops such as V-oz transpacific LAX-SYD 777-300er whilst the PIC's have their duty rest...am i correct?

i assume Voz have a Capt, snr f/o, and just the cruise f/o ? ?
or is the cruise f/o a 4th pilot?
all other heavy crews i have dealt with in the past the 3rd pilot is always another snr f/o or another capt.

if that is the case, is his training sufficient in the event of the other pilots being incapacitated, or otherwise (for whatever reason) in actually taking full control and say, taking over the 777 in an dire emergency, maybe on his own, say, on one or no engines, or emergency descent, then land at a remote pacific island (midway, or somewhere else) ?

do you follow me?
(i mean here IF he is the 3rd guy only)

[Dreamshiner]

1st point - yes

2nd - unsure what VOz plans are, I worked and it was always 3 pilots (unless the capt was on a line check). If it was a junior FO the capt was generally a training captain. If it was a senior FO it was any line capt. Depends on the insurance policy and its restrictions as ot what VOz can do.

3rd - To work as a cruise pilot you have to attain a full type rating in that aircraft type. The only thing you don't get is absorption of skill by doing the role. Before assuming either of the front seats the company SOP was to brief the PF on the rapid decompression and double engine recall items. Cruise pilot would take on roll of PNF regardless of other 2 pilots pre-defined role in flight determined in flight planning phase in the office.

It is common that people look down their nose at you because of your status rather than your ability. One of the many misconceptions cruise pilots have to overcome with those not versed.

It's well within the capability of a commercial pilot who has attained a jet TR to perform the function of PNF during an emergency (QRH, Radio, Charts, Prepare for approach, act on instructions from PF such as "Gear Down, Flaps 30").

I fought with my airline to give me 3 TO and Landings every 90 days to keep me legal. Before I pressed for it they didn't do it. Tried to tell me as a cruise pilot I wasn't required to land or take off, agreed with them but pointed out my licence and rating was valid with the landings regardless of my role in flight. Obviously they didn't want to do this as it cost them money and they already saw the requirement of a CRP as superficial and an unwanted added cost.

[frigatebird]

ex-Ansett and grandpa/granny-visa holders flying for Easyjet in the UK don't want to come home

you hope - Dream on

They are entitled to do just that. They have earned it, as well as having gained various extra aviation operating knowledge to bring. I too have spent a decade and a half outside Australia while others have enjoyed home comforts, so say if you want to stay put, then accept the limited advancement opportunities. Am entitled to time here now more than some, yet on application for a position, got passed over for imported non-nationals.
Sheez, some want it all handed on a plate.. CRZFO.. what a paper shuffling exercise - ( these days.. !?! ) Just hold out for FO T&C's if you want to get ahead.
Those charting the course in airlines should wake up to themselves.

[Dreamshiner]

You Kiwi's are helluva easy to wind up aren't you?

[bonvol]

Am entitled to time here now more than some, yet on application for a position, got passed over for imported non-nationals.

If you know this for a fact then kick up a stink about it. Employing "temporary" non nationals over qualified nationals is a no no under the immigration act. This is assuming that the foreigners are not Kiwis.

If these non nationals were to be employed they would most likely come in under the infamous 457 temporary visa. Its possible that they could come in under the Employer Nomination Scheme as skilled migrants but I doubt VB would go to this level.

Write to your local member outlining your case. With employment being a hot topic they may just do something.

[neville_nobody]

Other than that you observe everything else

BIG BIG difference from observing to actually sitting in the seat and doing it under pressure!!

To work as a cruise pilot you have to attain a full type rating in that aircraft type.

Usually they just have FO endorsements

[Dreamshiner]

Observing - I agree, however there is more merit to it than flying about in a traffic pattern in a C152 if your aim is to be a jet pilot. This role is primarily to allow the airline to satisfy a regulation. If you look at it as serving an apprenticeship and use the time observing and during the cruise well it should pay dividends in the future.

FO endorsement - Didn't know you get get a restriction put on your type rating to reflect this. I must admit, my licence is JAA and I don't know of this with any airline here. Maybe different in other parts of the world.

[AerocatS2A]

Yeah, Aus has FO endorsements, it's up to the company whether they want to give you a command endorsement or not.

If you look at it as serving an apprenticeship and use the time observing and during the cruise well it should pay dividends in the future.
It's not an apprenticeship though is it? Not in the case of Voz because there is no guaranteed career path through the company. It is possibly a dead end job requiring you to take yet another job with another company to do your real apprenticeship.

[Dreamshiner]

I don't know enough about it, but you would think think that a company that has the reputation of Virgin wouldn't treat its pilots like crap. Because you do reap what you sow.

If you are paying for the B777 TR via a reduced salary bond, then I would argue you should be able to dictate you want it to include the command rating. I'ts not as if its a freebie (like it was back in the day or only with legacy carriers currently), its your cash that paying for it.

However if they want a little more of an input/fiddling in your career/future development and attractiveness to other airlines then the might insist you get the FO rating. Then they have a little more control. Not that you could go from CRP to Capt overnight.

I don't know if applicants will have much negotiation sway or just glad to get their feet in the door. However I would ask about it at 1st interview and if the answer wasn't satisfactory then I'd punt my services to another airline. If it was satisfactory I'd ask for something in writing at 2nd interview - previous experiences would lead me to ask for that.

[rog747]

thanks for the reply DShiner

rog

[George_of_the_Bungle]

It seems a Voz CFO will have another progression option to that of a VB FO, some have been looking into the ever-expanding Qatar airways who already have 14 777's and one new addition every month until another 29 (including freighters) are delivered. Unlike Etihad and Emirates these guys only require 500 hrs on the aircraft type....would be interesting to see the pay scales for living and working in Doha with this mob.

[porch monkey]

Weren't F/O only type ratings given the arse a little while back?

[slice]

Dreamshiner - The way Virgin Atlantic treat their crew compared to their antipodean cousin company is like comparing night and day. The V Aus longhaul pay & conditions are measurably worse than the Virgin Blue. V Aus generally is a nasty deal, and I suspect turnover could start accelerate as crew get their 777 hours and depart for better deals.

[Dreamshiner]

I must admit that was an eye opener, especially as the Virgin group of companies generally has a fun/aspirational ethos attached to them (well in my perception of the brand anyway).

If VAus do follow this plan then as I pointed out, they'll reap what they sow. As you say slice, when the market is more buoyant globally then a mass exodus could very well happen (or overnight increase in terms and conditions). The bonding (and associated penalties for leaving early) they will offer applicants at present to secure employment may also help in their retention.

It's worth pointing out that from what I've been told a B777 TR would allow a B787 conversion on a rapid/abridged course as the methodology and systems are a natural progression from the 777. Some food for thought with so many on order for Australian airlines. (Granted Boeing need to get the finger out and get them built and delivered). Just gives anyone at VAus a few options in the years ahead.

[clinty83]

Evening all

Here is a question. Suppose you worked internally in VB and held all the appropriate licenses for a CRFO minus the hrs, would you be given a chance or would they make you stand in line with all the other applicants??

Clinty83

[Red Jet]

Applicants are currently sought for 2x Command & 2 x Senior FO. The application web-site will remain open with status "Accepting Interest" after these positions are filled. Several CFO's are getting interviews with the mainline, and major hiring drive for VB in both fleets are imminent.
Good times ahead , enjoy and play nice.

[KRUSTY 34]

If you were sucessful in gaining employment on a 40 year old turbo-prop DUX, You would more likely be a High time F/O fying with a Low time Captain! :confused:

[em20]

Do you have to have an Australian visa to apply for this position? Will they help you with a work permit for Australia. Are there any expats out there that have been through this? Any information is greatly appreciated.

[KRUSTY 34]

Any movement from RHS to LHS on the 777 in that little lot Red Jet?

[Red Jet]

Any movement from RHS to LHS on the 777 in that little lot Red Jet?
We can only hope! Will keep you posted.....

[Dreamshiner]

Great Pretender, 9 years of membership and that is your first post?

Pissed myself laughing, very Mr Miyagi. Very profound.

[inandout]

VB have pay levels for FOs can some tell me what the criteria is for each level. Also what are their bases. Thanks

[Abul Qais]

Hey guys,
Just been offered an interview date with VAus for a Cruise F/O.Wondering if anyone with info on the interview prcoess with Vaus for CRFO??

Any info will be much appreciated ,
Safe Landings

[DUXNUTZ]

When's your interview?

[Goat Whisperer]

em20

without already holding the right to live and work in Australia you wouldn't be eligible for the VA job. Companies can only assist with visas when they're employing people whose skills are not available in Aust/NZ. That might work for a 787 test pilot but not a Second Officer position.

clinty83

you'd be unlikely to get a look in without the hours. If you did have the hours, your record working within the company is likely to be looked on favourably.

Krusty34

the various window seats at VA have been promised many times over to different pilot bodies. IF VA are to honour their deed with Virgin Blue's pilots (and while they retain their current MFO I reckon they will) practically all of the commands for aircraft 5 to 7 will be existing VB commands. PB pilots have also been given a look in and existing VA drivers are keen to shuffle seats. I would expect a lot of VA promotion to come via 737 and EJet window seats, especially for Second Officers with little or no jet flying (window seat) experience.

[KRUSTY 34]

So no command upgrades for existing VA SFO's GW?

Ouch! :ouch:

[Red Jet]

Not to worry, the upgrades will come eventually. We all knew about the deed between the AFAP and VB to cover 4/7th of commands for the first 7 aircraft, before we decided to join as SFO's. Currently 18 Command slots left to fill under that deed, so upgrades will really only get underway for aircraft 7. There will only be a few internal upgrade slots for aircraft 5 & 6 and the advertised 2 are part of that. All indications are that the 2 Commands will be internal promotions. I believe we currently get on average 1 CV EVERY DAY, from 777-experienced Captains, mainly from the sandpit and Fragrant Harbour, but believe the train has now well and truly left the station for DEC's from outside the VB-group.

[Goat Whisperer]

Indeed, after aircraft 7 all existing bets are off.

[hardNfast]

If Cruise First Officers have a "limited" chance of progression in VA, does that mean that VA's First Officers usually transfer from a Virgin Blue FO position?

[Goat Whisperer]

VB just published an internal email soliciting expressions of interest for EJet FO positions. As those positions would be a step down to any other VB pilots, one can safely assume they're expecting CRFOs to be the only ones interested.

Goat out.

[KRUSTY 34]

Perhaps a step in the right direction? In which case would it not be simpler to offer progression onto the E-Jet and be done with it.

Oh wait a minute, then we couldn't charge for the endorsement! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[VOz_HR_Sheik]

99% of current CFO's do not have the requirements for upgrade within V. They never will if they continue sitting in the back seat.

A select and elite few have and will be interviewed for VB. They are, however, required to complete the full VB recruitment process. This includes a sim check to test their decaying skills.

This is not a seemless transfer.

All successfull candidates will not be told for many weeks and left in limbo until morale is almost non existant.

Now back to my ergo chair.

:)

[Trimmed_Flaps]

Of the recent V upgrades only one of the slots for each rank went internally.

With the recent announcement of aircraft 6 and 7 being turned to options these could be the ONLY internal upgrades for many years.

You would be mad to choose V over VB. Especially with the recently announced 737 order.

Good luck.

Flaps.

[neville_nobody]

How many of the CRZ FO's would actually meet VB 's requirements?

[KRUSTY 34]

You'd be surprised Nev'!

Which begs the question, why didn't they apply to VB in the first place? Even Blind feddy, or perhaps the Village Idiot should see the deal (Re: CFO's) is a sh!t sandwich as far as "Experienced" Pilots go. :rolleyes:

[NGsim]

'Meeting' an airlines requirements means bugger all in the current climate.

I'd be shocked and surprised if QFlink has taken on anyone recently with 800 hours as it states on their website (the guys I know that have recently got in all had circa 2000 tt and then some) and again i'd be shocked and surprised if VB have taken anyone with a bare 1000 and 500 multi as it states on their website recently........so for those of us that may 'meet' an airlines requirements but in reality don't stand a chance of getting a phone call then maybe thats the 'bunch of idiots' that apply for these roles despite having a fair idea of how terrible the conditions are in comparison to other operations locally.

Having been unemployed for quite a while now the back seat of a 777 earning a fraction of what second officers get at other airlines is starting to look sadly appealing.

[KRUSTY 34]

With all due respect NGsim, the pilots I was talking about have vastly more experience than either the QFlink mins or the VB mins or the Jetstar mins or the Tiger mins or the QF mins or even the new REX mins for that matter. Generally what they lack is significant jet time, or more to the point in excess of 2000 hours on Jet A/C above 40 tonnes! Without that, as far as VA is concerned, they're in the back indefinitely! Truth is even the SFO's road to promotion is now looking long and uncertain!

But trust me, in the current climate VA was probably the worst choice they could have made. A little more patience, and a little less wide jet syndrome maybe, and most would certainly have found themselves in a better career situation. I know 10,000 hour + Air Transport pilots that have left solid jobs to go and sit in the back at VA for less than half the money. It really does begger belief. :confused:

The VA CFO's with only, or not much more than min requirements for that position, well that's another story, and I take your point.

As for Blind Freddy and the Village Idiot, have another read of my post. They're the one's that can see the deal for what it is and have steered clear!

[nohumbug]

The word at VB is that many of the CFO's at VA with VB's min reqs assume that a right seat on a 737 is their GOD given right above and beyond anyone else. I hope this isnt the case.

I know one or two of them from GA days who thought they were above and beyond. Especially that Danny Devito doppleganger , who when asked if he could lend a hand washing a few 210's ..replied " I dont wash planes..ive got 200 hours on a partnavia....:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[slice]

If CzFOs have the experience and capabilities to enter VB on their own merit and are more than competitive with anyone in GA who is a candidate for VB why didn't they go there in first place instead of signing up for the ****tiest airline deal in Australia. The flow in the other direction has been a tiny trickle, which should indicate what the problem is!