Irish ATC Disruption 20 Jan 2010 [Archive]

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 09:17

So the underlying motive to strike, as put by the union, was that 15 contollers were suspended by the IAA. The cause is failing to comply with the introduction of new technology (is that correct?) The controllers believe that the introduction of new technology and working practices has increased pressure and has allowed the job to become more stessfull? However, lurking in the background, is a 6% pay increase which the IAA will not honour. So if they honour the 6% and bring your colleagues back to work, will ATC comply with the new technology and will the job become less stressful knowing that you have an extra 6% gross on your salary?

Keeping in mind that capacity has dropped (Ryanair say up to 25% - open for debate due to the source). Average ATC payment in Ireland is 112K (is that correct?) However introductory level is around 55k. With 6% that will raise to 58.3K. And already something like 30.65% of your salary is placed in your pension fund by the authority.

So who funds this, the struggling airlines? Can't see that escaping resistance, as a result you may have even less work to do due to capacity dropping further! The government...nope, not intersted - why should they be?. Airports....doubtful! IAA customers besides the airlines...well I can see some charges being risen there undoubtably. Even if the IAA has the money to pay you an extra 6% a year NOW they will hide this fact and look to source the lost revenue externally.

I've been an FO of a mid sized airliner for two years and don't earn 55K. I can't see many guys in my position supporting your industrial action i'm affraid. If you get your way its our employers who will bare the brunt of it. And that will filter down to us. Always does!

kick the tires

20th Jan 2010, 09:29

Wouldnt it be nice if airlines gave their pilots an extra 6% when they change aircraft types!

All that extra 'stress' with the introduction of new technology must be rewarded, or should it - after all, we're just doing the job we are paid for!!!!!!

737-500

20th Jan 2010, 10:41

ozbiggles

20th Jan 2010, 11:13

At least the ATCs are putting up a fight to maintain/improve their conditions. In the name of getting up hours pilots forgot how to do that a long time ago. No body forces pilots to work for that pay, do those long hours. We as an industry have self inflicted that upon ourselves. So if you signed up for a wage and conditions that are less than others, well dry your eyes and don't have a go at a group of people who are willing to improve their lot.

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 11:43

Well said Biggles, sitting on the other side of the world looking in. I don't know how things are 'down unda' at the moment, but in Ireland they are on their arse. High rates of unemployment, failing economy in nearly ever sector, businesses collapsing or relocating overseas, tax, income levy and national insurance hikes in order to bail out the economy, appauling weather and disruption, widescale flooding leaving large sections of the community homeless......the list is endless...endless!

If they want to protect their interests, fine...nothing against that. Do it from a position of strength. The public will only see this as additional misery at a time when misery is abound. When they hear some of the figures involved there will be nothing but resentment directed at the controllers. Cold hard face of it!

kick the tires

20th Jan 2010, 11:46

Well said Biggles, sitting on the other side of the world looking in. I don't know how things down unda are at the moment, but in Ireland they are on their arse. High rates of unemployment, failing economy in nearly ever sector, businesses collapsing or relocating overseas, tax, income levy and national insurance hikes in order to bail out the economy, appauling weather and disruption, widescale flooding leaving large sections of the community homeless......the list is endless...endless

and how does striking for an extra 6% help that little lot?

iwhak

20th Jan 2010, 12:19

The Irish economy, and the Irish aviation industry have been in meltdown for the last couple of years. To think the average ATCO package is €160,000 is unbelievable. Have they taken (like everybody else has) any salary reductions in recent times? (10% + has been the norm). Looking for a 6% rise in the current economic climate beggars belief. Do they care about jeopardising jobs in an already struggling Irish aviation business? Do they care about the damage they are doing to Ireland's faltering international reputation? Are these the same people that struggled to achieve anywhere near international standards on single runway movements at DUB during peak times? There are very few flight deck crew on this sort of renumeration.

There is a time and a place for everything, as a group of people you have got this completley wrong, there are industrial mechanisms in place for dispute resolution, why not follow them. Get real, or the government should adopt a Reagan type solution.

Roadrunner Once

20th Jan 2010, 13:12

To think the average ATCO package is €160,000 is unbelievable.
Unbelievable because, of course, it isn't. I'm not an Irish ATCO but, as I understand it, that figure relates to someone at the top of the scale and includes all employment costs ie.- employer's pension contribution etc. The basic average salary is nowhere near this figure.

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 13:33

The basic average salary is nowhere near this figure

Well the introductory salary is 55K. Plus a 30.65% pension contribution which the employees do not contribute to. What else on top of that? Health Cover? Allowances?? Contractual agreements? What is the tier system for an ATCO? When's the next pay raise?

They are having their arse wiped for them in every corner. Cowan has come out and said the general public should not have to pay for their grievances. That's what the Labour Court is for.

And the comment is totally apt regarding single runway utilisation at peak periods at EIDW. You are totally screwed if RW10 is in use! Speed up, slow down, hold, 20nm finals.

Maybe a few days in Gatwick or Stansted would be of use. Then they would really understand the meaning of 'stressful.'

What a load of Bullsh1t!

Sober Lark

20th Jan 2010, 13:56

I think this strike will focus public attention on the 'Package' provided to ATCO's who through nothing short of greed see it as their right to hold a country to ransom at very short notice. An I'm alright Jack and to hell with everyone else attitude.

Here is a prime example of how Trade unions run things into the ground and can't see the wood for the trees.

There has been a general decline in defined benefit schemes, the costs of providing them are excessive and unsustainable.

Get actuaries to value the scheme with a view to changing it to a defined contribution one and let the employees work to put money aside for themselves to provide for their own retirement years.

If such well paid individuals cannot provide without interuption the services they are being paid to then let them forfeit their jobs and have replacements organised.

EI-CON

20th Jan 2010, 14:22

Closing every major airport in the country will make Ireland the laughing stock of Europe.

The IMPACT trade union aswell as every other trade union in Ireland should be ran out of the country. Watching the IMPACT trade union spokesperson last night on the rte news was making my blood boil. He would not answer a single question that was put to him and he thinks its a good idea to strike. Does he not realise the aviation industry is on its knees. Two Irsh airlines are on the brink and this is what IMPACT do too help the situation?? :ugh::ugh:

MOL is right to keep the trade unions out of Ryanair. They are useless and do nothing only look out for themselves. If airlines go bust and there are no planes in the sky there are no need for air traffic controllers so the trade union is not helping its members at all!

Kiwitraveller

20th Jan 2010, 14:26

Firstly the IAA is obligated to recover its operating costs from it customers - the airlines, so we know who will pay. IAA would seem to be doing the right thing especially when at least one local carrier is on its knees.

Second the ATCO's are well paid by any standard, and usually the work hours are not to onerous. And where else do you get a non contributory pension of 30%!?

Go on strike? Make a fuss about new equipment? keep your head down, keep quiet and hope no-one finds out more like!

Third its not just ireland. In Spain where controllers are paid rather more (perhaps double Ireland) the public have recently become aware of this "gravy train"

There was a piece in the Spanish News last week about controllers now being targettted to abuse by angry tax payers, daubing paint on controllers houses, vandalising cars etc...

Chickens will come home to roost in Ireland and elsewhere.

I predict an unpleasant year or two for the ATCO fraternity.

Katy

Economics101

20th Jan 2010, 14:47

The real problem in Ireland is that Public Sector trades unions have been over-indulged by governments for years (under the guise of "partnership"). So while pay cuts have been quite common in the Private sector and pay levels generally lower, the public sector unions gone on a gigantic sulk when they were levied for contributions for generous pension schemes, and when their pay was cut.

The biggest difference is that the Public Sector guys have virtually total immunity from compulsory redundancy, while the Private sector has had huge redundancy levels. Pubilc sector levels of pay are sill at a handsome premium compared with provate sector, and even more handsome when compared with like occupations in the UK and W.Europe - not only ATCOS, but nurses, doctors, teachers, police.....

The Ryanair comment that even though traffic and ATCO workloads are down significantly, but there have been no redundancies, is for once spot on. Totally in contrast to other poor devils working in the air transport industry.

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 14:49

Does he not realise the aviation industry is on its knees. Two Irsh airlines are on the brink and this is what IMPACT do too help the situation??

They couldn't give a toss because they are unwilling to see beyond the moment. External circumstances don't raise union fees or lobby votes. They refuse to answer awkward questions regarding the knock on economic effect or public disruption because it simply isn't any of their concern. It is always somebody elses fault at the end of the day.

I mean suggesting the implementation of new technolgy as the root cause of this action makes a mockery of the public. Everybody knows why aviation in Ireland has come to a grinding hault today!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$

737-500

20th Jan 2010, 15:16

The number suspended is up to 20 now. The IAA ARE NOT going to back down on this one. The ATCO's need to realise that the IAA pay their wages and do the hiring and firing not IMPACT:hmm:

iwhak

20th Jan 2010, 15:21

Roadrunner.....

According to the IAA the average ATCO package is €160,000 with the top 10% at €230,000 as reported by RTE. Why is it not believable. They pay NO pension contributions, they have not taken ANY pay cuts, they ARE looking for a 6% rise, they will NOT accept the introduction of new techology, and are far from being the most efficient ATCOs. They ARE holding this country to ransom, and they WILL feel a massive public backlash. They care not for the rest of us in this industry hanging on by our fingernails, in fact they have given us two fingers. I also understand they were having a pre-strike vent this morning at their airline customers, ensuring that every flightplan followed every waypoint, wasn't a direct routing to be had. Spineless, greedy bunch, this gravy train has to be halted, as does the ridiculous amounts charged by Eurocontrol!

Fly Through

20th Jan 2010, 15:39

See you've all taken time to read the thread in the ATCO forum then. Why let the truth get in the way of a good rant. :ugh:

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 15:54

See you've all taken time to read the thread in the ATCO forum then. Why let the truth get in the way of a good rant.

And neither will the majority of the Irish people and those 20,000 effected by the strike today. That's where the game is lost. To them and us the rant is viable!

corsair

20th Jan 2010, 16:27

I've read through the thread in the ATC forum and complained at the lack of transparency on the strikers side. Even to the point where one contributor, presumably ATC himself advised others to not get involved in the debate.

We don't actually know the truth. Because no one is telling the truth. I even saw a union rep on the RTE news saying this dispute was about the suspended controllers. The IAA says it's about money. I'll tell you what the general public see. Another example of a well paid unionised public service holding everyone to ransom. No one is telling the truth. The public may be a lot of things but they're not that stupid.

If it's true the ATC were effectively working to rule and deliberately avoiding any flexibility to it's 'customers'. Then it's an utter disgrace.

Rarely have I seen such a universally negative reaction to any similar dispute. Both here and other forums and elsewhere. ATC have dug a very deep hole for themselves.

121decimal375

20th Jan 2010, 17:33

I expecting the backlash here but....

Firstly I'm am an ATCO but do not work for IAA. I have had my conditions of employment and pension changed significantly. I have also took a freeze like most ATCOs in the UK

How can you compare flight crew pay and conditions to ATCOs? Flight crew get the going rate within their industry so do ATCO's.

The main difference is that there is a worldwide shortage of qualified ATCO's where as there is unfortunately there an abundance of surplus flight crew(for a number of reasons including the economic downturn etc)

Why not compare Doctors, lawyers etc to ATCO's they obviously get the going rate in their industry

On a personal note, we are all professionals and we do our best to provide the best service we can. We understand that there is a reduction in traffic and we dont just sit on or backsides reading the paper. We endevour to use the spare capacity to co-ordinate re-routes, directs, straight in etc all which take considerable time and often many phone calls.

How many of those people here moaning about the IAA controllers have actually visited an ATC centre? Those who havent how could you possibly know how stressful the job is?

With the invention of modern aircraft systems and ATC systems we are all becoming observers and checkers. Just remember flight crews and ATCOs alike we all get paid for what we can do, not necessarily what we do on a daily basis e.g. emergencies

To all the IAA ATCO, well done for making a stand. I only wish my union had the same balls!

:ok:

737-500

20th Jan 2010, 18:24

Just for the record I have visited Cork TWR/APP and Shannon ACC and I am well aware of how stressful it is. But surely they are not doing themselves any favours the way they have gone about things? And now they have stopped giving shortcuts and in one airport not filing local flight plans which they have done for years. Is it not getting a bit silly at this stage?

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 19:39

How many of those people here moaning about the IAA controllers have actually visited an ATC centre? Those who havent how could you possibly know how stressful the job is?

No one denies the job can be stressful. Of course it can. You only have to fly within the London TMA or to a major airport at peak time to see what ATCOs deal with. However when it appears that the union has disguised the introduction of new technolgy and working practices as a stressor which as a result has left 20 ATCOs suspended by the IAA as they failed to comply with the new methods, something appears to be amiss. Especially when pay increases, high average salaries, massive pension contributions and lowered capacity is mentioned in the same breath!

Put it in the perspective of the pilot. We have lower average salaries than ATCOs, which I agree is no fault but our own, yet in a dynamic industry we continually have our working practices altered. We often change aircraft type, mostly at the decision and request of our employers. It requires lenghty conversion courses, examining and training on line. I've never heard of anybody actually striking over it and I'm not aware of anyone getting a pay raise because of it (unless they deliberately change operator for sake of a better contract). The same goes for the majority of professions that introduce new technolgy and practices which in turn require their staff to be retrained.

If no one actually knows what the real 'story' behind the ATCOs industrial action is then someone better come out and publicly announce it. Instead IMPACT have made an arse of you all by making the public out to be stupid feckers and appearing indifferent about the disruption caused. People have no time for this kind of behaviour, especially now!

B767PL

20th Jan 2010, 19:52

ATC SEEK 6% PAYRISE DESPITE 25% FALL IN WORKLOAD

Due to industrial action by overpaid and underworked air traffic controllers in Ireland, Ryanair has been forced to cancel 52 flights today (20th Jan) affecting over 6,000 passengers. Please see the below list of cancelled flights which were scheduled to operate to and from Ireland today (20th Jan).

Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at [email protected] or on +353-1- 8171529.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%. These overpaid air traffic controllers should agree to substantial pay cuts to reflect the reduced productivity being demanded of them at Irish airports this year.

Callsign Kilo

20th Jan 2010, 19:58

Doesn't help when Dublin's largest operator plasters this all over their website does it?

Expect MOL to turn this into a PR Circus. How do you counteract an already swayed public opinion? I believe in effective collective representation, however IMPACT have well an truely ****** up again :ouch:

Michael Lanson from IMPACT has stated more strikes are likely. Noel Dempsey, Transport Secretary, has said they will look at ways of making strikes effecting essential services illegal.

IMPACT still maintain the introduction of new technologies and the suspension of staff is the cause.

The IAA still maintain that ATCOs are holding out for 6% and that they won't contribute to their pensions.

The public are well and truely pissed off and clearly see through the sh1te. Your going to get ****** on this one!

homerj

20th Jan 2010, 20:44

I think ATC do a great job, it must be hard listening to all nationalities of pilot wanting this and that, and at the end of the day its them who are the first line of defense in preventing accidents but this action is just wrong.

Like the muppets that are Aer Lingus Pilots , they are not living in the real world. Can they honestly say , giving the economic and industry conditions that this behaviour acceptable. Thankfully as a taxpayer I dont contribute to the ridiculous salaries they still pay in Aer Lingus anymore but I do contribute to Irish ATCs, and If I had anything to do with it Id do a Ronald Regan and give you an ultimatum, get back to work of join the massive dole queue.

This public sector wasteful bulls*** has had its day

Aer Turas

20th Jan 2010, 21:37

Just had my airband scanner on to Dublin tower, heard Aer Lingus pilot giving the tower controller his best regards on behalf of IALPA for what they done today. Interesting times...

homerj

20th Jan 2010, 22:17

yeh , they really havent a clue do they . The worrying thing is that they genuinely believe that they are right , God help us

Sober Lark

20th Jan 2010, 22:19

Professionals?

Today we have just experienced ATCOs here who have such poor situational awareness coupled with a complete inability to think more than one move ahead and who for some form of arrogance that one can only get from being overpaid and underworked, took self satisfaction at their ability to hold the country and travelling public to ransom.

You'll get down off your high towers yet.

viper3

20th Jan 2010, 23:07

Corsair,
as a result of management actions after previous dispute where members were threatened with disciplinary actions after posts on pprune and to avoid the unnecessary annoyance that can be caused by reading some of these posts it was requested that members stay away from forums like this and facebook we get enough **** in the media.
IAA management are DEFINITELY on this forum hunting for anything that they can use and looking to create stress, again, another reason to stay off.

Look at the rumours and news forum its an IAA/ atco bashing shag- in designed solely to give the media the Impression that there is no support for ATCOs in the wider aviation community.

737-500
MAN the F**k Up. So you saved all your communion money and bought a pilots licence, well aren't you great, now you hear there's someone else in the aviation world earning more than you and you're off on your crusade.
As for the Ridiculous assertion the I was handed my job that marks you out as an immature tw4t.
Induction (one week) - This is classroom based and students are taught about the Irish Aviation Authority and given a general overview of the aviation industry.
Familiarisation (one week) - Students are introduced to the Shannon based operational areas of the IAA. Visits are arranged to local airlines and the Met office and students also take a trip onto Shannon airfield.
Team building - The class spends three days at an adventure centre for team building.
Theory module (three months) - Subjects include Air Law, Navigation, Meteorology, Theory of Flight and Communications. There are frequent progress tests throughout this module ending with written and oral examinations.
Basis skills training - The class is broken into three groups of eight. Students spend six weeks each learning Non-Radar skills, Radar skills and Aerodrome skills. At the end of this stage students are assigned to Cork, Dublin or Shannon.
Rating training (12 weeks) - Students are trained in a specific airspace at Cork, Shannon or Dublin.
On-the-job-training (OJT) (16 weeks) - Students are coached by on-the-job-training-instructors (OJTIs). These are qualified air traffic controllers who monitor the progress of the student. (shamelessly lifted from the IAA website)

Which part of that sounds like handed out to you??
Remember 737-500 you control 1 airplane (with your captain)
ATCOs control them all

Jules Meister

21st Jan 2010, 08:11

Viper 3

I think you're missing the overall point in this thread - start from the beginning and read it all! Specifics don't matter to the general population (aviation or general) as in this day and age anyone can claim to speak the truth about the facts.

What I, and many others see is a bunch of highly paid individuals looking for more in a time when the country (and indeed most of our neighbours) can't afford these requests. So what if new technology is being introduced.... There isn't an industry in the world that hasn't had to adapt to remain competitive - and you want more money to erode any benefits this technology may bring.

Take a look at the now defunct printing industry in Ireland the UK. For years the well paid printers looked for extra money every time something 'new' was introduced. Many print firms even paid their workers in cash every week because the union wouldn't accept an electronic payment method without huge compensation! Now where are those companies - bust and the jobs in mainland Europe and further afield leaving workers who were so 'super-qualified' and compensated that they had no chance of finding a job that would use their life long skills or the type of money they were used to! Many are now driving taxis!

Look at the big picture and keep your head down in these times.

bear11

21st Jan 2010, 09:32

from: fxcentre Breaking News (http://www.fxcentre.com/news.asp?2542111)

Air traffic dispute is set to escalate

Thursday, 21st January 2010 09.33am

The air traffic controllers' dispute is set to escalate, with the Impact union warning that further action is likely to happen "sooner rather than later".

Up to 20,000 passengers suffered disruption yesterday when controllers halted flights with a four hour walk out at Dublin, Cork and Shannon airports.

Two more controllers were suspended yesterday, in addition to an earlier 12, for failing to co-operate with the introduction of new technology.

The controllers are to meet in Roscrea, Co Tipperary, this morning to decide their next step.

As pressure mounts on the government to intervene in the dispute, there is a growing expectations that the Labour Court will be asked to help.

In a statement ahead of this morning's union meeting the controllers' employer, the Irish Aviation Authority, said no business can have its staff dictate what work they will or will not do.

"The IAA wants full services restored as quickly as possible and calls on controllers and Impact to return to normal work so that discussions can take place," it says.

"In any such discussions, which the IAA is willing to have, the authority wants an assurance from controllers and Impact that they will link all three issues that need to be addressed: pay increase, pension contribution, and work practices. "The work that controllers are now refusing to do is work they have been doing for the last two years and were doing until three weeks ago. On January 1, 2010, they refused to continue such work. No business can have its staff dictate what work they will do and will not do, particularly in a safety-critical business such as ours. "All air traffic control systems are continuously upgraded as a matter of course. This is a high-tech service requiring ongoing technical upgrades to its systems, many of them Windows-based. "The IAA's customers - the airlines - cannot pay additional charges every time such upgrades and updates occur. The IAA receives no State aid, is funded by the airlines, and would have to pass on to the airlines the entire cost of any pay increase awarded to staff."

121decimal375

21st Jan 2010, 10:09

HomerJ said:
If I had anything to do with it Id do a Ronald Regan and give you an ultimatum, get back to work of join the massive dole queue.

Get real....where do you get the replacements from? Massive shortage of ATCOs worldwide all that would mean is ATCO terms and conditions improve. IAA offer even more competitive conditions to lure foreign ATCOs, the other ATC providers improve their terms and conditions to retain staff.

Either way the IAA loose and Irish airspace remains shut!

Clandestino

21st Jan 2010, 10:16

I would like to express my gratitude to my pilot colleagues that bashed ATCOs on this thread. While you were not particularly helpful in clearing up the basis of IAA - ATCOs dispute, now I better understand why we are so poorly paid.

Tarq57

21st Jan 2010, 10:41

Nicely said, Clandestino.

I simply can't believe the number of posters prepared to have a bash, here, with an apparent displayed ignorance of the issues, or a total willingness to disregard same issues.
Some of you are lemmings in training (or fully rated), or undercover management.
I suspect the latter, since it is impossible for me to believe that so many pilots could be so short sighted.

frangatang

21st Jan 2010, 10:53

With the pay quoted in these pages , it explains why we hear *strines and kiwis operating shannon enroute. They aint there for the weather thats for sure!

sback

21st Jan 2010, 12:48

viper3

21st Jan 2010, 13:59

Jules sometimes it helps to dig back. if only for other peoples morale.
I still encourage any Seriously interested visitors to visit
2010 Irish ATC dispute – get the facts (http://irishatcfactfile.wordpress.com/)
and get the real facts.
Outing this particular thread as an IAA run forum for the benefit of the press needed to be done.
Look how much more civil it has become since they left.

I also maintain that ATCOs effectively shut themselves off from an increasingly vindictive and bullying IBEC controlled media.
The media and public opinion will play no part in solving this issue and most people believe about arse point 2 percent of anything the RYR CEO says anyway so dont let it get to you, work is stress media is bulls**t!

Stay off the forum as much as possible, we know ,now, that management are here in force.
Keep radio silence and stay together.
Tarq57
Thanks for the support and the wisdom.

"grab yer gun and bring the cat in Starbuck":ok:

sickofitall

21st Jan 2010, 14:43

Viper1

You have me a tad confused.

Are the ATCO's down here because the pilots are up there or are the pilots up there because the ATCO's are down here?

You may like to think that they control them all but without aircraft there would not be any jobs for them. Now we all know that that is not going to happen, but as traffic reduces there is a requirement for less ATCO's...and the opposite is also true.

The problem here is that the traffic is reducing...and has been for at least a year. Impact need a sniff of reality. I couldn't care less if they earn 500,000 or more a year...but it should be based on performance.

Dublin is probably one of the only airports where if you are approaching from the east and they are landing on RWY28 that they will actually turn you onto an easterly heading on approach in order to keep a SEVEN MILE separation...in VMC!! Before you say it doesnt happen, it does...I have operated where I was wondering if I was going to end up getting handed back over to Manchester Control

By all means pay them the money if that's what they want...but it has to mean an increase in productivity.

Incidentally, landed on RWY16 today. They are obviously on a work to rule. Flew the full VATRY3U arrival...poetry in motion. Nobody ******* things up!

M609

21st Jan 2010, 15:16

only to get airborne and hear very little on frequency.

That might be quite high on the stupid comment scale!

You do realise that the regulating sector can be at any point in your flight, and maybe not even in Austria?

I used to work at a TWR/APP way up north of the artic circle, and "often" had to hold aircraft for up to 2 hrs....even if if was the only one, and maybe one of 5-6 in in each sector all the way down Norway on a quiet Saturday afternoon.
All because of because of staff shortage at London ACC!

If you are on a short domestic flight, then fair comment, and I'll crawl under my rock again.

1985

21st Jan 2010, 18:20

As an American that has been flying for a European carrier for almost two years now, I must say that most of the controllers here are wussies. I am absolutely flabergasted at the slot times (CTOT) we get because of congestion (especially Austria), only to get airborne and hear very little on frequency. Vienna controllers must have a clause in their contract that limits them to handling no more than 3 a/c at a time. What a joke. ATC here in Europe has equipment that is 20-30 years newer and better than in the States, yet they seem to be capable of so much less! I wince when I imagine how euro controllers would manage Chicago O'Hare, LAX, or JFK approach on a normal day. A busy day would absolutely eat their lunches!

Thats because we have to talk to too many americans pilots that can't understand english and continually moan about a little bumpy air that every european pilot doesn't even mention. Wind your neck in.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%

I'm confused at where the 25% drop in traffic has come from??

If traffic at the airports fell by 15% then how do you get a 25% drop in overall traffic levels? Unless overflights/transatlantic fell by something like 40% (which it hasn't) and thats presuming that Irish traffic is split 50/50 between aerodrome traffic and overflights (which i seriously doubt it is). :ugh:

And the 6% rise has already been negotiated, The IAA don't want to pay it. If you were promised a 6% payrise and then your employers tryed to get out of it wouldn't you be a bit upset?

I couldn't care less if they earn 500,000 or more a year...but it should be based on performance.

Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible, its not their fault if the airlines aren't flying the same amount as they were last year. They get paid and should get paid irrespective of how many aircraft they work be it one at a time or one hundred.

And do you get paid less when you fly less than full aircraft?? Doubt it.

With the pay quoted in these pages , it explains why we hear *strines and kiwis operating shannon enroute. They aint there for the weather thats for sure!

If they were in it for the money they'd be in the middle east.

red barchetta

21st Jan 2010, 20:23

1985
True, at least someone is trying to stay on track.
In Dublin the hourly capacity on rwy 10/28 is about 44 per hour in 2006- 2008 we were regularly shifting 51/52 per hour so if capacity has dropped 25% from then then I reckon at 40 movements we are operating at 90% or more of our main runways published safe capacity.
Anyway thats nit picking

It doesn't matter what the traffic levels are, everyone knows that there were only 2 aircraft in the sector at Uberlingen and look at the tragedy there.
The fact that new technology was a factor in this should never be overlooked cos it's not always a good thing.

kontrolor

21st Jan 2010, 23:16

@sback - next time you are returning to Ljubljana think twice about the ATCOS and what they do. We have very good relations with your carrier, we practice jump-seat flights and your coleuges visit us from time to time. We talk. You just chew.

darkskies

22nd Jan 2010, 06:04

Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible

Well, not quite, and certainly not in the UK ....

"An ATC service is provided according to the particular circumstances and class of
airspace, for the purpose of:
a) preventing collisions between aircraft in the air;
b) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft moving on the apron and the
manoeuvring area;
c) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft and obstructions on the
manoeuvring area;
d) expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic."

MATS Part 1, page 1

millerman

22nd Jan 2010, 07:03

It is amazing how performance related pay is always quoted when there is a downturn in traffic levels. I don't remember anyone getting an 8-9% increase a few years ago when traffic was increasing by that amount (at least in my unit) and an increase in wages in line with the increase in traffic figures would have been laughed at!!!
I agree we are well paid and have good working conditions (mostly) but it is all down to good old market forces.
Let's face it commercial pilot is still seen as a fairly glamorous job and most little boys want to be one and therefore there is a high take up rate ( and you pilots haven't done too much to discourage that impression have you ;) )
ATCO on the other hand is seen as a stressful black magic art where you sit in a dark room chain smoking and putting yourself into an early grave and therefore no-one ever says at the age of 6 "I want to be an Air Traffic Controller" and therefore take up is low.
Couple this with the fact that most people will get their pilots licence if you throw enough money and time at them:eek: Whereas most people cannot do an ATCo job no matter how much money or time you allow them which is why there is still a 50% failure rate even though companies have spent millions studying and developing selection tests! Ok ( before you start ) I know any monkey can control 2 cessnas an hour at a local field.
As you may have guessed I am an ATCO and these views are entirely personal but to those of you whinging about not getting any directs the other day - it just shows you what you get every day and take for granted :ooh: Why shouldn't you fly the route you have filed? The future will be flying filed routes and at the level you have filed as well just to make slot times, and ATCO's will not be able to deviate from that because the system tells them they can't - is that progress???

1985

22nd Jan 2010, 08:57

Quote:
Their job description is to keep aircraft apart not allow as many aircraft to fly as possible
Well, not quite, and certainly not in the UK ....

"An ATC service is provided according to the particular circumstances and class of
airspace, for the purpose of:
a) preventing collisions between aircraft in the air;
b) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft moving on the apron and the
manoeuvring area;
c) assisting in preventing collisions between aircraft and obstructions on the
manoeuvring area;
d) expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic."

MATS Part 1, page 1

Expediting and maintaining an orderly flow of air traffic does not mean let as many flights as possible go.

The Mats 1 quote above mentions preventing collisions three times therefore thats what i see as the main crux of my job. Expediting and maintaining means making sure that the the traffic does what it has filed to do as quickly and as efficiently as possible. If that means delays, no directs, holding etc to achieve that then thats what any ATCO will do. That's how the system works. Expediting and maintaining is the fourth point for a reason.

If pay is performance based ie per aircraft worked, then people will be working upto the point of exhaustion, not splitting sectors when they should and cutting corners to work more. Thats the nature of people. Every ATCO works with safety as their first, second and third priorities, being expeditious comes later once everything is safe. As you progress through training and gain more experience then the two work together as you learn that you can be both expeditious and safe, but the default position is always safety, safety, safety.

Lon More

22nd Jan 2010, 09:32

Amazing the amount of rubbish being spouted here by so-called professional pilots. Normally there would have been calls for threads to be locked, people banned etc. Just because you have 2/3/4/200 rings on your sleeve it doesn't make you an expert on something you know nothing about.

So are RYR flights no longer being greeted with "Top of the morning to you," but, "Top of the stack ...."?

The Euronator

22nd Jan 2010, 10:57

It's quite amazing to hear the vitriol spouted by so-called professional pilots here.
Yes, ATCO's are essentially public servants but I don't know too many ( if any ) public servants who can serve over 3 years of their life to study & then get failed at the final hurdle. The failure rate in ATC is very close to 50%. I don't think this happens in the pilot fraternity, even with mummy & daddy's money to give them their commercial pilots licence.Most students enter this profession between 18-20 & have NO outside experience. Try picking up a job at 23 with NO qualification & an extremely specialised experience..good luck.

If ATC was put in the private sector you could definitely expect to pay a lot more for the service but alas the pilot fraternity looks only into their own microcosm that is their cockpit. Keep looking at the stewardesses boys, one day you might have enough intellect to look outside the cockpit.

iwhak

22nd Jan 2010, 13:53

Aside from the reasons for the dispute, mismanaged PR etc. what I can't understand is why the controllers are effectively working to rule with their airline customers, no flexibility, no direct routings, know of a case today of ONE aircraft on frequency routing to a regional airport, asked for a direct routing, NO SIR not today, proceed as planned, must have added an extra five minutes. Your gripe is with the IAA, it has been a devastating time for the industry economically, and over the last month with WX cancellations, why make it even more difficult for the airlines, this action achieves nothing, it may however contribute to further traffic dilution!

1985

22nd Jan 2010, 15:11

know of a case today of ONE aircraft on frequency routing to a regional airport, asked for a direct routing, NO SIR not today, procede as planned

Wasn't a ryanair by any chance?? If it was it doesn't surprise me after the crap MOL has been spouting. Wouldn't think that any ryanair will get a direct routing for a while. They are well known for continually asking for directs and filing a level that is a few thousand feet lower than the one they want to avoid flow restrictions and then requesting higher levels.

iwhak

22nd Jan 2010, 15:31

No wasn't Ryanair!

flowman

22nd Jan 2010, 17:02

Surprised nobody has posted Ryanairs latest contribution to the debate, the following statement appears on their website and does not reflect the views of flowman:uhoh::

"RYANAIR FORCED TO CANCEL FLIGHTS ON 20 JAN DUE TO IAA STRIKE"

ATC SEEK 6% PAYRISE DESPITE 25% FALL IN WORKLOAD

Due to industrial action by overpaid and underworked air traffic controllers in Ireland, Ryanair has been forced to cancel 52 flights today (20th Jan) affecting over 6,000 passengers. Please see the below list of cancelled flights which were scheduled to operate to and from Ireland today (20th Jan).

Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at [email protected] or on +353-1- 8171529.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%. These overpaid air traffic controllers should agree to substantial pay cuts to reflect the reduced productivity being demanded of them at Irish airports this year.

:=

Why no mention of the French strike last week that must have affected a lot more than 6000 passengers? Why have they not supplied the e-mail address and phone numbers of the French strike organisers?:confused:

7AC

22nd Jan 2010, 17:32

I was just pleased to have a half day off, thanks folks.

Waterfall

22nd Jan 2010, 18:46

Thanks to all of those who supported irish air traffic controllers-our 14 suspended friends are back to work:D:D:D:D:D.Thank for the patience to all those pilots affected:E:E:Ewe are back to normal operations-expect direct routings:ok::cool:

mini

22nd Jan 2010, 22:30

Despite the countless media barrages by both sides, I'm still wondering what this "introduction of new technology" was all about.

As a disinterested observer I've formed the conclusion that the reluctance of the IAA to implement the 6% pay rise led to this situation.

The IAA historically seem to be a bit of a joke (ie the N reg scenario for eg)

The ATCO's/IMPACT need to either sort out their PR or take the hit. The controllers have an insulated financial/pension situation superior to all. Including Govt members.