Emirates A380 continues to LHR after Cargo Fire?

[puff m'call]

Been hearing some stories about an Emirates A380 out of DXB en-route LHR had an intermittent cargo fire indication, known problem by all accounts on this aircraft.

After a while they decided to fire the bottles into the hold because they could no longer decide whether it was false or not, but then elected to continue with the flight to LHR!!!!!

If this is true it's shocking news, any event like this must surely be "land at the nearest suitable airport" under a Mayday.

Anyone else heard anything, hope it's not true.

[vip-1]

Sounds a little suspect, lets wait and see.:ok:

[vapilot2004]

Beats the living daylights out of the UAL evacuation at Newark, at least on some deeper philosophical level...

[ab33t]

Still cant find any info , anybody

[HamishMcBush]

...and what's the nearest suitable airport where you can land an A380 (and take off again after investigations have been completed)? Maybe it was LHR anyway.

[WindSheer]

After a while they decided to fire the bottles into the hold because they could no longer decide whether it was false or not, but then elected to continue with the flight to LHR!!!!!

If this is true it's shocking news, any event like this must surely be "land at the nearest suitable airport" under a Mayday.


Come on guys.
Any pilots flying the a380 for any airline over the world will be more or less the best that outfit has to offer. They will also be a lot more 'scoped up' on the various glitches the 380 is suffering at the moment.
We all know fire is a pilots worst nightmare.....they are not going to take ANY chances.

:ugh:

[Checkboard]

Any pilots flying the a380 for any airline over the world will be more or less the best that outfit has to offer.
http://www.abfnet.com/forum/images/smilies/rofl3.gif

Oh! that's good. :} Rare to meet someone who hasn't heard of seniority. :}

The first pilots onto a new type are generally Management (if you can't do, manage) or the oldest. :hmm:

[vapilot2004]

We all know fire is a pilots worst nightmare.....they are not going to take ANY chances.


No prob. Get a set of stairs on call and we'll be all set. :}

[Brenoch]

I'm in stitches now Checkboard, thanks, I really needed that.

Btw. I nicked the animation-smiley for future reference. :}

[Exit Strategy]

It wouldn't be the first time that this particular outfit has continued to destination after a cargo fire indication. May have something to do with the way they have dealt with guys that diverted in the past?

[Fox3snapshot]

Exit...

It wouldn't be the first time that this particular outfit has continued to destination after a cargo fire indication. May have something to do with the way they have dealt with guys that diverted in the past?

Not kidding mate, a good friend of many of us here went down that road 5 or 7 years ago with no serious damage (except for the bags the hold lights were burning to pieces!) , no injuries and the company reputation in tact after a no s*it hold fire and faced the wrath of EK mis Management for any reason they could think off for not getting the frame back to home plate.

Ya can't win! :ugh:

[thegoon]

So they discharged the bottles just in case the intermittant warnings were false. I wonder if the warnings continued. If the warnings didn't continue the crew may have thought the fire was real and was now out. Still a good reason to land. If the warnings continued now is a really good time to land. Suitable airport when you might be on fire is anywhere. They better have a good explaination for all the people in the back. I wonder what Airbus has to say. We will probably never know the whole story.

[Llademos]

There's been an EK A380 in the BA Hangar at LHR for the last few days ... any BA Engineers out there?

[B-HKD]

That would be the SQ 380 who got an engine change and is now getting a gearbox replaced.

[411A]

We will probably never know the whole story.

That is...IF there was/is a real story to begin with:}....considering some folks wild imagination, and/or distorted 'facts'.

[Nom De Guerre]

BH Child.. where is the gearbox? We'd love to know..

:rolleyes: :}

[Taildragger67]

Nearest 'suitable', or 'available', runway? :eek:

I'd suspect that any strip of concrete able to handle the weight would do if necessary; getting it out might then be an issue, as long as it's not a pile of charred metal.

Airbus designed the 380 so that any 747-capable strip could handle the 380 (leaving aside ground-handling issues) - so between OMDB and EGLL, there would be myriad places to put down if an emergency required it. Frankfurt, Finkenwerder, Amsterdam and CDG come quickly to mind. Plus lots of former-Soviet Antonov-capable strips in eastern Europe.

Another aspect might be that the pilots might have felt more familiar with EGLL than anywhere in between so if not necessary to get down pronto, then being over familiar turf might have been a better place to be.

I make no comment as to company policies, ground handling, engineering support, ability to get the airframe out, etc.

[L337]

BH Child.. where is the gearbox? We'd love to know..


That one? Gearbox (http://www.orange.aero/orangeaero_part-rb211-535e4_high-speed-gearbox-assembly.htm)

[jolly girl]

I would be interested in hearing the Engineering side of this... which sensors do they use and what is the failure/service history for that P/N and/or manufacturer?
Chris Wickens has been doing some interesting research on responses to alerts with histories of false alarms, not making a judgment on this event either way, is anyone familiar with this vein of his research?

[Flightmech]

Nom De Guerre,

Don't get your statement. All engines have gearboxes or there's no way to drive all the accessories (hydraulic pumps, oil pumps, idg's, fuel pumps etc etc etc) :rolleyes::}

[1DC]

When you consider how efficient CCTV is these days and so cheap to purchase and install,i am surprised you folks only have a sensor and a light to go on.

[Fubaar]

And where would you put it? Commercial do their best to fill all cargo compartments. If they managed to do so, (as EK cargo department almost always do), all you'd see - from just about any position in the cargo compartment - would be the side of a container, about two centrimetres from the lens.

[hetfield]

Seems like AB didn't learn that much of false CCMPT-SMOKE warnings on A300/320/340.....

[Danimal]

If Boeing managed to get certified CCTV equipment in ceilings of modified MD11s, then it should be certainly possible to have something like that in the holds. Especially, since those ones had infra modes.
Acutally, I am wondering myself why this is not standard.
Danny

[flyingchanges]

Screw the camera, give me a thermometer...

Mike

[PJ2]

puff m'call, jollygirl;
I would be interested in hearing the Engineering side of this... which sensors do they use and what is the failure/service history for that P/N and/or manufacturer?

Chris Wickens has been doing some interesting research on responses to alerts with histories of false alarms, not making a judgment on this event either way, is anyone familiar with this vein of his research?
I don't think this has been asked/answered yet.

I have a question and a comment. For the A380, are the detectors "smoke" or "fire" detectors? The A320 series and A330/A340 series there is no fire detection system but only smoke detectors.

The comment i have is, these smoke detectors would occasionally trigger in high-humidity conditions on the ground with the cargo doors open. I have never experienced a smoke caution/warning in flight.

So far as the "reported incident" goes, (we have no report yet), regardless of whether it happened or not, (I think fundamentally this is the same category of question as the evac and slide deployment one), - If one has a fire or smoke warning, unless one can positively identify it as false, one lands at the nearest suitable, period. If on an extended over-water leg, one decides very carefully, obviously. Fortunately these systems are very reliable and false alarms rarely occur.

The British Airways' collective decision to carry on with an engine out isn't quite the same, but for my money its damn near - the proof for me would be in the simulator, if, on an engine failure with damage, (no N2 or N3, over-temp, hi vibs etc), I decided to carry on the mission using financial considerations as justification for the PPC/IFR ride, I would rightfully have failed the ride.

But it's a different aviation/airline world now, where pilots have, perhaps because more and more don't know any better, have permitted the MBA's to take charge of the left seat where cost is the primary consideration in decision-making. Not saying it can't be, but given the industry's tremendous safety record and an increasing number of managers who have no idea where that record came from or why it exists, the industry has yet to re-draw the line between money and primary safety principles.

[421dog]

Just a thought, but does the fact that ionization detectors contain a small amount of radioactive material play into the decision to have "smoke only" detectors?

One of our corporate planes had a tritium compass that got everyone in Buffalo customs very excited a few years back. Needless to say, we replaced the offending instrument without a repeat performance...

[hetfield]

The comment i have is, these smoke detectors would occasionally trigger in high-humidity conditions on the ground with the cargo doors open. I have never experienced a smoke caution/warning in flight.

PJ2,

Yes, they are affected bei humidity AND on ground with open cargo doors vehicles exhaust can also trigger the warning.

In my airline we had plenty of smoke warnings in the air due to high humidity, most of them caused by fresh mangos.

On 320 I had a tricky one. Aft cargo compartment smoke light on overhead panel, but no bell/ECAM....:cool:

[Taildragger67]

The British Airways' collective decision to carry on with an engine out isn't quite the same, but for my money its damn near - the proof for me would be in the simulator, if, on an engine failure with damage, (no N2 or N3, over-temp, hi vibs etc), I decided to carry on the mission using financial considerations as justification for the PPC/IFR ride, I would rightfully have failed the ride.

Experience demonstrates that BA will likely get on the desk ASAP where there's a fire concern. A BA 747 had a cargo hold fire alarm in 2003, not long after departing from Sydney for Singapore (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/aair/aair200203671.aspx#tab_1); the crew turned their aircraft straight around and put it down pronto back at YSSY. SR111 was still fresh in peoples' minds so I don't think there was much consideration given to any delay in getting on the deck so as to lose a few kg's of gas.

It turned out not to have been a false alarm.

[divinehover]

I have to agree. A couple of camera's in the hold feeding images to the same system that give us the taxi cam would be a rather simple, wouldn't cost much and wouldn't add any significant weight. If I can see a live feed of my a/c from the tail I can't see why I can't see a pic of the hold.

I'm not to sure how it would change the decision making process though. That will be a bit more tricky.

DH

[tom775257]

If the A380 is like the A320 series, when you fire the extinguisher in the hold you will get a continual smoke warning even if the original fire is out. You have no way of knowing (if genuine) if you have put the fire out, infact if there was a fire and you use the halon on it, it will still have lots of heat remaining even if no combustion remaining.

[PAXboy]

PJ2... but given the industry's tremendous safety record and an increasing number of managers who have no idea where that record came from or why it exists, the industry has yet to re-draw the line between money and primary safety principles.Too true and before the line has been redrawn, more people have to die.

In 1929, the Stock Market crashed through unrestrained greed and the effect lasted for more than a decade. The US govt (and others) put big fat laws into place. In less than 80 years, those laws had been dismantled and another great greed had overtaken the whole world, that we will be paying for across more than a decade.

Now think about the laws helping to keep the wonderful flight safety record? No one can guess how long it will take to reach the low point because the prangs will happen at various places around the globe, under different jurisdictions. So we will have to have more prangs/near prangs before there is sufficient reaction from the public.

My hunch is that it won't start to look really ugly for another 12/15 years, due to the time it will take for the generations of FC and managers to work through the system. Many carriers are only as safe as they are because so many of their staff (in all positions) are experienced enough to have seen the lessons learnt at first hand. Once they are gone - then we are all at risk once again.

Why did it take 79 years for the Stock Markets to crash again? The men and women who had been in the middle of it were gone and their children were retired (or dead) so their grandchildren were in charge and they did not listen to their grandparents ...

[Joetom]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/221811-ba010-bkk-lhr-divert.html
............................................................ ...
Worth a read, post 78 sums it up in one.

[IcePack]

PaxBoy,
Yep best post I've seen.

:ok:

[golfyankeesierra]

What do you expect to see on your camera when the hold is stacked till the roof with containers?

http://images.aad.gov.au/img.py/e83.jpg
(Not sure of the a/c type, but they're all the same)

[Mr Optimistic]

...with no lighting: an orange glow
...with lighting: smoke

[Curious Pax]

If cost permitted, thermal imaging in some form would be a more useful tool.

[peter we]

"...with no lighting: an orange glow
...with lighting: smoke"

Which means, I assume, that you would ignore the smoke detector alarm for - say half an hour - on the basis that you can't see a fire. Smoke detectors detect a far sooner than it can often be seen, and by definition the fire will be hidden as there isn't much flammable material in view.

[sevenfoursharer]

At the start of the thread is a rumour about continued flight with an active lower cargo fire warning. Could anyone actually provide some substance to the rumour?

[Mr Optimistic]

I was only looking at the photo of hold and addressing what a camera would see. Surely more information (or the chance of), must be a good thing ? Whether really useful to a decision maker or cost effective overall: dunno.

[glad rag]

At the start of the thread is a rumour about continued flight with an active lower cargo fire warning. Could anyone actually provide some substance to the rumour?

Exactly.

Go look up CARGO FIRE VERIFICATION SYSTEM (CFVS) losers!

gr.

[Swannecker]

The photo is an A321 with a Centre Auxilary tank fitted in the aft hold if that helps.......

[segajet]

The cargo temperature should give you a good idea if the smoke warning is genuine, but it would be a brave/dumb pilot who disregarded the warning. Even a past history of snags in the tech log can't be trusted. I well remember the Dan 748 with a history of spurious door warnings, leading to the rear door warning being ignored,after a visual check by the new loadmaster. The volume of cargo prevented the pilots from carrying out their own check, and possibly spotting the webbing that was jamming the locking mechanism. It just wasn't their day when the door detached and deformed around the tailplane.

[Ocampo]

...with no lighting: an orange glow
...with lighting: smoke

If cost permitted, thermal imaging in some form would be a more useful tool.

I think the additional information provided by the camera would be only that of the side of the front container that is facing the camera. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that every airplane that can fly containers in its hold, always flies with all the containers it can carry. A camera wouldn't help that much, me thinks.

As some had already said, maybe a thermometer would be of greater help

[wingview]

Maybe a dumb question, but with today's containers how can you put out a fire in a container? :ugh: Possibly the fire won't spread that quick in such container, but I would like to go back to the nearest airport available asap! If it was a false warning, bad luck. If it was good it could save my life!

[Re-Heat]

In 1929, the Stock Market crashed through unrestrained greed and the effect lasted for more than a decade. The US govt (and others) put big fat laws into place. In less than 80 years, those laws had been dismantled and another great greed had overtaken the whole world, that we will be paying for across more than a decade.

Now think about the laws helping to keep the wonderful flight safety record? No one can guess how long it will take to reach the low point because the prangs will happen at various places around the globe, under different jurisdictions. So we will have to have more prangs/near prangs before there is sufficient reaction from the public.

My hunch is that it won't start to look really ugly for another 12/15 years, due to the time it will take for the generations of FC and managers to work through the system. Many carriers are only as safe as they are because so many of their staff (in all positions) are experienced enough to have seen the lessons learnt at first hand. Once they are gone - then we are all at risk once again.

Why did it take 79 years for the Stock Markets to crash again? The men and women who had been in the middle of it were gone and their children were retired (or dead) so their grandchildren were in charge and they did not listen to their grandparents ...
Poor analogy in my opinion. There were people in 1931 who were talking up the market once again, having forgotten the lessons of 1929, when they failed to understand they were in a bear market rally. The laws involved were in no way the cause of the recent crisis, and in finance, even the experienced forget the last crisis if a fast buck can be made.

More important is the eduction of professionals on past safety issues. I have never yet had a serious situation in the air and hope never to have one, largely as I am highly conservative by nature and was trained as such.

I can't say some of the others who fly around me are as conservative - some very experienced, some not. I don't think experience of accidents is relevant - it is the eduction on the first flying lesson or the first engineering lesson that breeds the safest and most competent operators.

[Geezers of Nazareth]

I think the additional information provided by the camera would be only that of the side of the front container that is facing the camera. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that every airplane that can fly containers in its hold, always flies with all the containers it can carry. A camera wouldn't help that much, me thinks.


No.

I've seen plenty of aircraft with empty spaces in the cargo/baggage hold. In fact, I've seen aircraft where an entire hold is empty. Not necessarily due to lack of cargo, either. Might be because of a faulty loading-system, so nothing can be loaded.