What makes a good (and bad) FO ?

[John Citizen]

I am trying my best to be a good FO.

What qualities make a good FO ?

Also what makes a bad FO (so I know what not to do) ?

Thanks.

Yes, I know about :
1 - Good landing captain (always)
2- I'll take the chicken
3 - I'll take the fat/ugly one

Anything else ?

[Flexi]

Hey John,

in another thread VONKLUFFEN gave an excellent post - for me a MUST read especially for young FOs.

Here is the link (first page, post #8)

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/401210-lets-make-our-profession-prestigious-again.html#post5428022

Cheers Flexi

[IRRenewal]

1. turn up on time
2. know your sh!t
3. don't be a w@nker


Ps: same applies to captains

[Bob Lenahan]

1) FO in the seat 10-15 minutes befor the Capt; Capt arrives, "Sir, our clearance is SID... and I've set :::in you HSI."

2) Things are a little hectice, Capt very busy, "How can I help?"
Bob.

[Widewings]

I am not sure "everything ready" FO work is a best one. I think the most important for any pilot in any position is TO BE AWARE AND KEEP THE OTHER ONE BE AWARE. Even in case you loose your awareness, it is safer to tell it to the cpt than pretending everything is all right.

Captains instruments setting beffore the flight IS DEFINITELY NOT the FO´s responsability, sorry guys, but who says this should have a look into any FOM. How can one be aware when the setting was done by someone else (not to mention someone less experienced..).

Or imagine low hour FO making mistake in the preflight performancecomputation. CPT only comming to the seat and not even interrested in the V speeds, just copying them to the FMC (which I have experienced by myself!) is the safety risk. Such a crew then represents "two single pilot operations", but this is deffinitely not what the airline pilots are drilled for.

You may not agree, but this is my experience.

[Centaurus]

A good F/O goes about his job quietly and efficiently and observes carefully. Before "suggesting" courses of action to the captain, he listens to his own conscience and then decides if his "suggestion" is based upon personal opinion and ego. Most times it is because he thinks the captain will appreciate his fast mind. In real life, "suggestions" which are actually prompts, are irritating and often counter-productive. Avoid getting a reputation of being a "fly by mouth" individual.

[Bob Lenahan]

If the FO is there before me he can set my instruments anytime he wants- it's not expected, but he can do it. Apparently you think I'd blindly accept it, which is not the case. V speeds? If you have experience flying the plane, you should pretty well know if the Vspeeds you been given are close enough to being accurate. Same with with most the other stuff- like fuel loads.
Bob.

[Checkboard]

Just the fact that you care enough to ask probably means you're a good one. :ok:






Notice, I'm not bothering to ask what makes a good Captain. ;)

[Spendid Cruiser]

Notice, I'm not bothering to ask what makes a good Captain.
One that says "what and excellent idea!" and after the flight "thanks for looking after me" :}

[NVpilot]

Assuming you are at an airline, no need to stroke the captain, follow your SOP's and do the job you were trained, don't assume that the captain has looked at everything properly, you need to check NOTAMs, WX and also the tech log, even though you may be familiar with the a/c defect, always recheck MEL procedures. Read the checklist, don't memorize it.

We all make mistakes, you are the second set of eyes. Brief EVERYTHING that you are going to do that is not SOP.

[Checkboard]

Keep your hands and feet off the controls when you are not flying the aircraft!

i.e. - you don't "backup" the Captain on the rudder pedal/brakes for take-off or approach to stand. (Unless it's in your Operations Manual, of course.)

[Dream Land]

Keep your hands and feet off the controls when you are not flying the aircraft!:D:D:D:D

Our cadets are trained to back up during the Landing and Takeoff phase, but why in the world do they have their feet on the rudders any other time, that's what the footrest is for! :ugh:

[Union Jack]

.... . I believe that you might really quite enjoy reading the thread Centaurus has started on D&G Reporting Points entitled http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/406561-axe-man-apia.html :ok:

Jack

[Captain_djaffar]

What makes a good (and bad) FO ?



If you mean Foul Odour, I'll suggest some carribean beans...

:}

[Kiltie]

Don't decide to prematurely start using your pedals bringing the aeroplane to a halt on the runway as the Captain is steering and lining up, until he says "you have control...." I have had countless smooth line ups ruined by feet-happy FOs "itching" to have control for their take off. Calm down!

Also, don't be so rude as to grab the paperwork from the dispatcher and start barking orders at him when your Captain is sitting three feet away :mad:

Don't start shuffling uncomfortably in your seat, nervously pointing and then predictably exclaiming "ALTIMETER CHECK!" five feet after we have passed the level when it wasn't your challenge to make in the first place. Relax, give the Captain a chance, then intervene a few hundred feet later if he's completely forgotten. It's not a bl**dy race for something so non-urgent so don't point score.

Don't wear your stripes in the breakfast hall at the night stop hotel. Don't mention to other passengers you're a pilot when on dead heading flights. It's boring.

You must be a good guy to fly with anyway if you've got the guts to ask the question in the first place, so that's why I've only mentioned some of the "don'ts" !!

......and GET YOUR BL**DY HAND AWAY FROM THE BACK OF THE THRUST LEVERS DURING MY TAKE-OFF!!!! When I want your help fine tuning the thrust setting I will ask for it!

Bah!

[Herod]

Don't be afraid to (tactfully) query a captain's decision if you think he may be wrong. The captain has all sorts of pressures on him to keep schedule, accept defects etc; you are the failsafe. I've made the wrong decision before and been corrected ( and appreciated it).

[Dan Winterland]

It all depends on culture, age, training and experience as to what a Captain will expect of an FO. And this is really what you are asking - what is expected of you. The question is so airline and region specific, I don't think you will get a good generic answer on this forum. What you will get is opinions (can't wait for 411A's inevitable input) and you can pick out of them what you will. So here's mine:

I fly in a company with lots of expat pilots with lots of nationalities and many who don't speak English as a first language. Therefore, my company requires and expects strict observance of SOPs to avoid possible confusion. You as an FO should be hot on the SOPs, perhaps better than the Captain.

I fly with FOs who range in experience from being older than me and with more hours to 250 hour cadets. I expect similar standards of operating throughout the range but obviously I have to make allowances for the newer guys. But my company treats the pilots the same regardless of seat. If you as the FO is PF , you do everything the commander would (with the exception of having your hand on the Thrust Levers on the take off roll and making any reject decision, and Low Weather Minimum Operations which are both seat specific). Therefore, the FO should try to become as knowledgeable as possible and be confident. But you will find in most cases, knowledge leads to confidence.

If you analyse the above, you will see that what I'm talking more about how a Captain relates to his colleauge on the flight deck rather than what the FO percieves as what he's doing in relation to being a 'good FO". Flight Deck CRM is a two (three with a FE) way thing and no crew member should have to adapt their techniques to suit another in any major way. Unfortunately, it's often the FO who is more SOP compliant and has to adapt to the guy in the other seat which shouldn't happen, but is frequently the case.



So, know your SOPs, know the aeroplane but be prepared to be flexible.

Oh, and don't scew up!

[powerstall]

just be standard and follow the SOP's! :ok:

[BOAC]

I am a copilot, I sit on the right
I'm quick and courageous; I'm wonderfully bright
My job is remembering what the captain forgets
And I never talk back, so I have no regrets.

chorus: I'm a lousy copilot and a long way from home.

I make out the flight plan and study the weather,
Pull up the gear, drop it, and stand by to feather
I make out his mail forms, I hire his whores,
And I fly his old crate to the tune of his snores.

I make out the flight plan according to Hoyle
I take all the readings, I check on the oil,
I hustle him out for the midnight alarm
I fly through the fog while he sleeps on my arm.

I treat him to coffee, I keep him in cokes
I laugh at his corn and his horrible jokes
And once in a while, when his landings are rusty,
I come through with, "Yessiree captain,it's gusty!"

All in all, I'm commissioned a general stooge
I sit on the right of this high-flying Scrooge
Some day I'll make captain, and then I'll be blest,
I'll give my poor tongue one long hell of a rest.

From The Wild Blue Yonder, Oscar Brand

(A much treasured old and battle-scarred LP now transferred to CD)

[Captain_djaffar]

I laughed my a** :D

[ehwatezedoing]

......and GET YOUR BL**DY HAND AWAY FROM THE BACK OF THE THRUST LEVERS DURING MY TAKE-OFF!!!! When I want your help fine tuning the thrust setting I will ask for it!

Bah!

So basically you don't want him to follow SOP's :confused:

[BOAC]

I suspect Kiltie is referring to the myriad 737 F/Os who do not understand the way the 737 sets take-off N1, and finish up poking and shoving at the levers unecessarily, normally resulting in the wrong N1.:ugh: A constant education process. Boeing have a publication telling all about it which I carry with me.

[Kiltie]

BOAC - correct.

It is not SOP to have the PM guarding or nudging the thrust levers from behind during the take off roll; this is an age-old "habit" that I have never seen printed anywhere. I don't do it to my FOs so why should they do it to me? I find it intrusive and as BOAC says more often than not the FO attempts to forcibly assist the A/T with a manual shove resulting in an exceedance of N1. Boeing FCTM states that the PM should verify that take off thrust has been set and THR Hold is engaged. Thrust should be adjusted IF REQUIRED to-0% +1% target N1.

ehwhatezedoing perhaps your company has its own SOP over and above Boeing's which is commonplace and in which case you are correct in your situation.....

[BOAC]

Well, that's two of us on the same script, anyway:ok:more often than not the FO attempts to forcibly assist the A/T with a manual shove resulting in an exceedance of N1. - and then often it results in THR HLD cutting in just as the A/T over-compensates for 'eager young pusher' and N1 ends up BELOW target, but 'eyp' does not notice 'cos the job is done, innit?:ugh:

[411A]

(can't wait for 411A's inevitable input)

SOP's...yes we have a few, however, much latitude is left to the individual pilot.
I leave the First Officer alone to do his job (they get at least 60% of the sectors anyway)...if he wants my advice I expect he will ask for it.
Exception..I will speak up only if the situation is getting out of hand, and the First Officer does not notice the trend.
Haven't had to do the latter in years...:)

[alf5071h]

A Captain who can see the FO’s point of view, who can provide explanation and guidance in operations, and who sets an example in leadership and professionalism …. You get what you are.

FO’s – do what your replacement would do tomorrow.

To intervene or not to intervene? The co-pilot's catch 22. (www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/PACE.PDF)

CRM More than just Talk, Talk,Talk,Talk. (http://cradpdf.drdc.gc.ca/PDFS/zbb72/p510933.pdf)

The Better the Team, the Safer the World. (www.daimler-benz-stiftung.de/home/discussion_research/collegia/completed_collegia/highrisk/all/white_book.pdf)

The Learning Process (http://www.dynamicflight.com/avcfibook/learning_process/)

[Pull what]

Understand that the captain may be the biggest :mad: in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.

Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.

[A37575]

Unfortunately, it's often the FO who is more SOP compliant and has to adapt to the guy in the other seat which shouldn't happen, but is frequently the case.

While that may be true, there are also first officers who, once their check to line is over and done with, sit back and relax in the right hand seat and go on to display an alarming contempt of SOP because they simply cannot be bothered to continue their professional development by self study.

[RR RB211]

A37575 - That is very disappointing to hear.

From a newish FO who continues to strive for my own personal improvements in SOP application and flying ability, it saddens me to hear of colleagues (from any airline) with inappropriate attitudes to their job. :ugh:

And what a job it is :)

[John Citizen]

Understand that the captain may be the biggest :mad: in the company but he is the commander of the aircraft.

Once you have got to grips with that the rest should fall into place naturally.



Ok, so does this mean :
- allow the captain to fly his own way and deliberately not follow SOP ? :confused:
- allow the captain to bully you and not stand up yourself ? :confused:
- not point out any errors the captain might make (so not to embarass him) :confused:
- not make any standard calls if the captain is outside tolerance /about to exceed limits (no to embarass him / allow him to be a rebel) ? :confused:
- allow the captain to exceed company limits and not say anything to him ? (not to embarass him / allow him to be a rebel) :confused:
- adapt to the captains non-standard ways and fly the non-standard way he (she) likes to fly ? :confused:
- always agree with the captain when you know he is wrong ? :confused:
- never to consult any documents to point out what the books say to him (her) (when you know you are right) ? :confused:
- not offer any advice/suggestions to the captain (because it will be against his pride to listen to you) ? :confused:
- allow the captain to discourage you from following SOP ? :confused:
- allow the captain to teach you his non-standard ways ? :confused:
- make detailed notes on each captain I fly with (because they are all so different) so that I can alter how I fly depending on the captain I fly with ? :confused:
- pretend to treat the captain like your best friend even though he is the biggest :mad: ? :confused:

[FLCH]

John Citizen,

Pull what simply said that the captain is ultimately in charge of the aircraft, like him or not the seat position is to be respected, not necessarily the individual.

It would be your professional obligation to address all the points you have just so well made.

I was an F/O for 12 years and 7 as a Flight Engineer before upgrading to the left seat and discovered while I was there that those sitting in the left seat are not infallible, but they were the final arbiter of decisions, with or without your input.....hopefully with.