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Flyman35
30th Dec 2009, 20:01
I was holding short for a the departure runway,the captain told me-as I was the PNF- to tell the tower that we are ready for departure,I said to the tower that we are ready for take off,he told me that you can't say that you are ready for take off while you are not on the runway,so he gave me two new rules,before entering the runway I am not allowed to say that I am ready for takeoff instead I should say ready for departure,but if I am on the runway I have to say ready for takeoff ,any reference for that information?!:ok:

CJ1234
30th Dec 2009, 20:09
I don't know if there's any reference to official publications but he's right - you MUST not use the word takeoff until you're cleared to power away and lift off the runway - a point made particularly poignant by the very nasty accident at Tenerife involving KLM and Pan Am 747 circa 1977/8.

I don't even agree with the second point - just don't EVER use the word takeoff unless your hear the phrase 'CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF'. Just to avoid any horrible incidents. ;)


1234

Kirks gusset
30th Dec 2009, 20:38
The guidance is available in CAP 413 section 4 Aerodrome Phraseology, it stresses " take off clearance" shall be issued separately from any other instruction, it follows, therefore, that you cannot accept a line up and take off at the same time. "ready for departure" is the correct phraseology, it assumes you are just that, i.e will not be doing engine run ups or checks on the runway and can accept a " take off" clearance. This is our bread and butter stuff guys, know it, know where to find it and keep the standards high.

FCS Explorer
30th Dec 2009, 20:38
same reason that we're not supposed to say "three" but "TREE". because "three" sounds like "free" .... at least that was the explanation given to me :rolleyes:

approaching the runway simply say "ready" - tower will know what you mean.

bfisk
30th Dec 2009, 21:18
Hmm... to me "tree" sounds more like "free" than "three" does. However "tree" is probably easier to hear on a scratchy radio? How about "niner" instead of "nine"? I heard it was because "nine" sounds like german "nein" meaning "no".

On the original question: the word "take off" shall ONLY be used when reading back a takeoff clearance (for you) or when issuing a takeoff clearance (for the tower). To report ready for....said event, you shall report ready for "departure".

gimmesumvalium
30th Dec 2009, 21:51
I see 2 conflicting regulations:
1. UK CAP 413, which specifies "Ready for Departure" by the pilot; and
2. ICAO Doc 9432 - Manual of Radiotelophony; ICAO Doc 4444 PANS-Air Traffic Management, which both specify "Ready" by the pilot.

In no situation does the pilot use the word "take-off" UNLESS when acknowledging the take-off clearance issued by the tower.

While operating in the UK, CAP 413 takes precedence; operating in the rest of the world, ICAO rules OR the local state rules take precedence.

BTW, a similar conflict exists between the UK climb (SID) and descent (STAR) altitude clearances and ICAO/rest of the world, and must be treated with extreme caution to avoid altitude busts. Refer UK CAA 'FODCOM 16-2009'.

Sir George Cayley
30th Dec 2009, 21:58
What where you taught recently when doing the training that got this job?

If you followed the script then your training provider is to blame, if not....


Sir George Cayley

Piltdown Man
31st Dec 2009, 10:57
but if I am on the runway I have to say ready for takeoff

Even there, the correct term is still "Ready for departure" which is shortened by some to a plain "Ready". The first person to say "take off" is the tower and these two words will only ever be used with the clearance "ABC, Cleared take off, runway 99".

PM

Boroda
31st Dec 2009, 15:34
By the way, about local rules in Russia - you must report at the first contact with Tower "request line up" that means "ready for departure" for the rest of the world, and YOU must report "ready for take off", that means you are ready for roll. You can tell Tower both things togeather, if no reasons for delay by you for more than 1 minut, if after clearence for take off 1 minut elapsed you must receive another clearence.
But it is only rule, and you know how we like to follow them in Russia.:O

G-BHEN
2nd Jan 2010, 22:27
I really do not mean to sound rude here, but is this not one of the basics covered? This was ATC lesson 1.1 for me on about my second lesson in a C152, "ready for departure" and "cleared for takeoff" and I have never heard anyone use any other.

I just cannot believe that an airline pilot would not know this, let alone have got this far through their training having never used the correct ATC terminology :eek:

despegue
2nd Jan 2010, 23:57
I assume that the original poster is a Microsoft FS pilot, anything else is just scary... How low must training levels fall I wonder?!

172_driver
3rd Jan 2010, 07:41
This was ATC lesson 1.1 for me on about my second lesson in a C152, "ready for departure" and "cleared for takeoff" and I have never heard anyone use any other :eek:

Hear it all the time here in the US, together with here-we-go, we're-on-the-roll and other "standard" take-off clearances :rolleyes:

RWEDAREYET
3rd Jan 2010, 08:21
I agree with 172.

Also, all turbine aircraft are expected to be ready for departure upon reaching the holding point in the USA. In other words, standard procedure would be to tell the tower you are not ready for departure while on the taxiway vs ready for departure upon reaching.

demomonkey
3rd Jan 2010, 08:33
Boroda (http://www.pprune.org/members/256666-boroda)

Thanks for the information. Do you have a reference (in English) I could read as I fly to Russia occasionally and was not aware of this difference in RT phrases.

Many thanks, DM

punkalouver
3rd Jan 2010, 16:55
Use the term all the time over here, as recommended by the appropriate authorities.

From Canada's AIM

4.2.8 Take-off Clearance

When ready for takeoff, the pilot shall request a take-off clearance and should include the runway number. Upon receipt of the take-off clearance, the pilot shall acknowledge and take off without delay, or inform ATC if unable to do so.

Pilot: WINNIPEG TOWER, BEECH ALFA JULIETT GOLF TANGO READY FOR TAKEOFF, RUNWAY THREE SIX.

Tower: JULIETT GOLF TANGO, WINNIPEG TOWER (any special information-hazards, obstructions, turn after takeoff, wind information if required, etc.), CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF RUNWAY THREE SIX (or JULIETT GOLF TANGO, WINNIPEG TOWER, FROM GOLF, CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF RUNWAY THREE ONE).

Pilot: JULIETT GOLF TANGO.

RAC - 4.0 AIRPORT OPERATIONS - TC AIM - RAC – RULES OF THE AIR AND AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES - TP 14371 - Aviation Safety Letter - Publications & Videos - National Operations - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publications/tp14371/rac/4-0.htm#4-2-8)

oceancrosser
3rd Jan 2010, 18:03
Seems Canada is out of tune with the rest of the civilized world... too many died in Tenerife to ignore the lessons.

punkalouver
4th Jan 2010, 16:59
I remember from the report that the KLM crew said "we are now at Takeoff" and then took off with out a clearance. Not sure what difference it would have made if the had said something different like "we are now at departure". In fact it may have been even less likely that the controller would have picked up on it. However, it does make sense to have everyone use the same terminology regardless of that accident.

Perhaps some more thought on it from the rest of the civilized world.

JEP
4th Jan 2010, 19:11
I think one of the factors at Tenerife was the ATC-clearance "After Take-Off continue on RWY heading....."

Anyway: ICAO-rules state that:
"the word "Take-Off" is only used when an aircraft is cleared for take-off, or when cancelling a take-off clearance. At other times the word "Departure" or "Airborne" is used."
DOC 9432 "Manual of Radiotelephony" 2.8.3.3

But many countries deviate from ICAO-standards.

punkalouver
4th Jan 2010, 19:30
I think one of the factors at Tenerife was the ATC-clearance "After Take-Off continue on RWY heading....."

Anyway: ICAO-rules state that:
"the word "Take-Off" is only used when an aircraft is cleared for take-off, or when cancelling a take-off clearance. At other times the word "Departure" or "Airborne" is used."
DOC 9432 "Manual of Radiotelephony" 2.8.3.3

But many countries deviate from ICAO-standards.

Thanks for the link JEP.

GEN - 1.0 GENERAL INFORMATION - TC AIM – GEN – GENERAL - TP 14371 - Aviation Safety Letter - Publications & Videos - National Operations - Aviation Safety - Air Transportation - Transport Canada (http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/publications/tp14371/GEN/1-0.htm#1-3)

Section 1.3 of the link above shows Canadian Differences with ICAO Standards, Recommended Practices and Procedures. Nothing is indicated for radiotelephony.

My understanding of that section you quoted means that the controller is never to say the word takeoff to an aircraft until that aircraft is being cleared for takeoff.

If I call the tower and say "ready for takeoff", how is that going to lead me to misunderstand the next ATC statement to me, leading to me rolling without a clearance?

As for Tenerife, the controller in Tenerife did say "standby for takeoff, I will call you" and if I remember correctly, due to radio squealing, all that was heard by KLM was "Standby-sqealing......". So even there at Tenerife, the use of the word takeoff by ATC did not lead to the accident. I do agree that ATC should not use the term until the takeoff clearnce is given.

JEP
4th Jan 2010, 19:54
My understanding of that section you quoted means that the controller is never to say the word takeoff to an aircraft until that aircraft is being cleared for takeoff.


I think it works both ways - you (as a pilot) cannot use the word "Take-Off" until you are cleared for take-off.

But after rereading the ICAO-bible (DOC 4444 12.3.4.10) - it seems that the phrase "Ready" is sufficient - the words "For departure" are optional.

(Have been RT-instructor 8 years and just learned something new - again)

Stratobus
4th Jan 2010, 20:27
So how is working in this Canandian system when lots of aircraft on taxiway, all calling "ready for take off, runway xx" total confusion for aircraft lined up ready to go.. good job this system not used in Europe. Was a LHR other day and Korean pilot made to repeat 3 times readback before they let them line up..chaos..worse than Athens!

bjornhall
4th Jan 2010, 21:05
I remember from the report that the KLM crew said "we are now at Takeoff" and then took off with out a clearance. Not sure what difference it would have made if the had said something different like "we are now at departure".
If the word "takeoff" had never been used until a takeoff clearance is given, ATC might have picked up on the term "takeoff" as signifying the aircraft was by then in its takeoff roll.
If I call the tower and say "ready for takeoff", how is that going to lead me to misunderstand the next ATC statement to me, leading to me rolling without a clearance?

It will not, but that is not the point of that particular phraseology change.

There were two issues identified in the Tenerife accident leading to two different changes in phraseology.

1. The captain thought he had received a takeoff clearance, when he actually had only received his airways clearance. This was fixed by ensuring the takeoff and the airways clearances are given separately, so nobody could misunderstand an airways clearance as being both an airways and a takeoff clearance.

2. When the FO told ATC "we are now at takeoff", ATC could interpret that as meaning the aircraft was ready for takeoff, or at the takeoff position, or something of that sort. That was fixed by ensuring the term "takeoff" is only used in the takeoff clearance, so whenever someone says the word "takeoff" it means someone is in the process of taking off. That makes it easier for ATC to realize when someone is taking off without a takeoff clearance.

The above illustrates that the phraseology changes introduced after Tenerife would have constituted two more barriers, that were not in place at the time of the accident, each of which would have had the possibility of preventing the accident.

Flyman35
4th Jan 2010, 21:10
I assume that the original poster is a Microsoft FS pilot, anything else is just scary... How low must training levels fall I wonder?! :=

despegue : if you got something good to say say it if you donít silence is much better than your silly criticism. And actually it seems that you are the Microsoft FS pilot as the two phrases are not familiar to you.