MEP instructor courses

[theflyingbus]

Evening all

Would be greatful if anyone could suggest where I can do the training for a MEP instructor ticket, I am currently a FI (SEP)

A rough cost would be fantastic, the closer to London the better, but not essential

Thanks in advance

[S-Works]

Ontrack at Wellesbourne. I have done most of my Instructor and Examiner ratings with them over the years and they have been outstanding value and quality.

[Mickey Kaye]

Kevin Rowell at Sherburn in Elmet

Advanced Flight Training (http://www.advancedflighttraining.co.uk/)

[hugh flung_dung]

David Scouller at Thruxton (near Andover) 01264 773900

HFD

[theflyingbus]

Thanks guys

[madlandrover]

Also Craig Padfield at HGFC (www.hgfc.co.uk) - training probably on their DA42 with the new Austro engines, 170hp a side and composite airframe :ok:

[Terry_flyer]

Try Atlantic Training Support at Coventry Airport - they have fantastic first class instructors / examiners. Highly recommended. :ok:

Did mine there - costings you should contact them but I believe you can either do the course on a C310 or PA44 or even your own a/c if you have one available at your disposal.

[DFC]

I would like to become a CRI too but 30 hours MEP PIC seems pretty expensive. Does anyone know of any cheap ways to get this time or any "loop holes" that allow for lower MEP PIC hours?


What knowledge / experience are you going to base your lessons on with less time?

Just as important, with less than 30 hours are you not going to be still learning MEP operation yourself.

Some advice - I would put your '"loop holes" that allow for lower MEP PIC hours' in the same bag as the "as soon as I get 1000 hours I want to be an examminer". There is one thing getting a rating in your licence. It is a big difference being able to efficiently teach as well as safely operate the aircraft and totally different thing being approved by an FTO i.e. getting to make use of the rating you have obtained.

Plenty of FTO's will take the money you pay for the course with the bare minimum hours. None of the reputable ones will employ you at the end of the course though.

The idea of finding a way to build the experience with the minimum cost to yourself is a much better idea. Cost sharing flights can reduce the multi time costs to 1/4 the hourly PPL Hire rate. i.e. do 40, pay for 10.

[S-Works]

Is there anything stopping someone from building the 30 hours PIC in a sim? Checked LASORS and there was no mention either way.

yes, the rules require you to have 30hrs on the type in which you want to teach.

I wouldn't teach/exam a subject I'm not comfortable with myself. Believe it or not good flying skills aren't solely based on hours.

Rubbish. Unless you think you are some sort of sky god?

Not wanting to start a war here but for gods sake if you want to teach something get the experience of it first. Hows in gods name do you think you can have the experience to teach MEP from sim time is beyond me.

Why do some people have to find a curve on a straight road all the time?

As an Instructor you should be familiar with LASORS and JAR FCL, but to help you out I have highlighted the relevant part that you seem to have overlooked in your keenness to find a loophole.

H3.3 CRI(SPA) COURSE FOR MULTIENGINE
AEROPLANES
In addition to the requirements below, please also refer to
the Instructor Ratings (Aeroplane) pre-requisites detailed
previously in Section H0.
An applicant for the issue of a CRI(SPA) rating for multiengine
aeroplanes shall have:
a. A valid Multi-Engine Piston (Land) Class or Single
Pilot Multi-Engine Type Rating.
b. Completed at least 500 hours flight time as pilot of
aeroplanes.
c. Completed at least 30 hours as PIC on the applicable
type or class of aeroplane prior to commencing the
course. It should be noted that ME SPIC time is not
allowable towards this 30 hours requirement.
d. Completed an approved course at an approved FTO
or TRTO including at least five hours flight instruction
on the aeroplane or a flight simulator given by an
instructor approved for this purpose (see Appendix
1 to JAR-FCL 1.380 and AMC FCL 1.380); and 25
hours* teaching and learning theoretical knowledge
training.
e. Passed the relevant elements of a FI Skill Test in a
single pilot, multi-engine aeroplane with a suitably
qualified FIE(A).

[DFC]

Cost sharing flights can reduce the multi time costs to 1/4 the hourly PPL Hire rate. i.e. do 40, pay for 10.



How does that work??


I will be kind and simply give you the explanation;

Cost sharing permits you to hire an aircraft, take 3 passengers flying and divide the cost equally between all four of you. Therefore if the aircraft costs 240 per hour, you will only pay 60 for that hour.

The minimum you can pay is

1/4 when you have 3 passengers
1/3 when you have 2 passengers
1/2 when you have 1 passenger

Since this is a minimum contribution, you can choose to for example pay 120 per hour and have your 3 passengers contribute 40 each per hour.

Therefore if you do 40 hours flying with 3 passengers and the cost is divided equally, the 40 hours has cost you the same as flying 10 hours if you paid it all yourself. i. fly 40 pay for 10.

-------------


Is there anything stopping someone from building the 30 hours PIC in a sim?


Simulator time is not PIC, PUT, SIC or any other form of time. It is simulator time. It is recorded totally separate from the time in an aircraft and with 1 exception can not be appied to anything other than the simulator time element of a training course.

[S-Works]

Quote:
Why do some people have to find a curve on a straight road all the time?
Because some people aren't rich

That does not give you the right to cut corners. The only people who suffer as a result of this are your students. Why should they pay for you to learn when it is your job to educate?

It is little wonder Instructors are left at the bottom of the food chain.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[S-Works]

Your only chance if you are not going to pay for the hours is get a job flying a twin. oh hang on, you won't get a job flying a twin because you don't have the experience. Therefore if you don't have the experience you will make a very poor Instructor.

I wouldn't teach something I'm not comfortable with myself. De ja vu??

And pray tell how are you going to be comfortable with teaching without this experience? Are you a bonafide 'Skygod'?

De ja vu?

The FAA require 15hrs of PIC in the type or class in which a rating is sought, in addition to the 5hrs of mandatory training for a ME rating or 3hrs if converting an ICAO rating. You are then required to do 3hrs of flight training for the rating and the you are required to have 5hrs on EACH SPECIFIC make and model that they wish to teach FAR 61.195 & 61.183 You will also need an FAA CPL and and FA CFI rating.

As a ME Examiner myself your posts make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up to be frank. Symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the flight training industry.

If you had an opportunity to get a job in aviation for as little cost as possible (and you weren't rich) I'm sure you would take it.

I have a job in aviation and to be frank a worked my ass of to get there. I had 500hrs P1 ME before I became an MEP Instructor and over a thousand hours on ME before I became an Examiner. The same for the type rated Aircraft I fly, teach and examine. You are nothing as an Instructor without experience and using your students to gain experience is criminal.

[hugh flung_dung]

Alister,
It's commonly said that there are more opportunities to kill yourself after an engine failure in a light twin than in a single. IMHO the minimum requirements are (if anything) somewhat low and it's rather worrying to see someone looking for ways to cut corners. The "standard" way of reducing the cost used to be to fill the aircraft up with fuel and go somewhere that allowed you to reclaim the fuel duty (and ideally also to bring back a load of duty-frees) - this isn't as easy as it was but it's still possible if you think about it - you could combine it with a weekend away with your mates.

With all due respect, you might want to consider whether it's wise to continue with what might be perceived as slightly naive questions/comments on a public FI/FE forum. Some of the recent questions and comments (how to join the RAF, how to become a test pilot, how to become an examiner, starting an RF, cutting corners on MEP instructional pre-reqs, whether an aircraft becomes "lighter"..., reaction time to correct an approach error, etc, etc) might be better asked of your flying chums.

I think you've said that you instruct at Bournemouth, which is one of the places I'm known to frequent from time-to-time. Send me a PM if we know each other.

(edited to add: Bose and I overlapped - I'm also an MEP examiner and fully endorse his comments. Bah, and to fix a typo.)

HFD

[DFC]

DFC - There aren't too many people who are going to pay that kind of money to simply sit back seat. Thx anyway though.



Even if they only pay £1, that is £1 of the costs saved by you.

Plenty of pilots have built experience in this way and I even know a few that used that method to gain experience of flying all over Europe rather than get an instructor rating and having the same 1 hour local flying thousands of times.


What kind of experience is required to become an FAA MEI? I've got around 40 hours of MEP already, problem is the PIC time though, I've only got 5 hours SPIC and that doesn't count int he JAA system...


No need to ask where you trained then!!!!

Forget the idea of finding a short-cut. Such talk makes people like me start thinking that the parker pen shortcut may already have been used if I ever looked at your logbook during an interview.

Like I said, lots of FTO's will sell you the course with minimum hours. None of them will employ you after. Rather than ask about the minimum hours to start the course, do some research into the experience FTO's require before you can teach multi VFR or multi IFR.

If you want to do something to progress, build up some IMC time and then get the no applied instrument restriction lifted and start teaching for the IMC rating and perhaps after showing some experience in that area get the chance to teach for the single engine IR and build from there.

You seem to be an a big hurry to collect badges. You seem to seek any available short cut and dismiss the well proven idea of saving your costs.


I'm pretty sure I already mentioned I wouldn't teach something I'm not comfortable with myself.


Then foregt about getting the qualification to teach Multi-engine / IR's. Holding the qualification is going to require you to keep your multi engine rating and IR curent - LPC every year and when it comes to renewing your instructor rating you are going to have to do it in a multi / IR instructional environment since you will not have done the required amount of multi IR training while the rating was valid (or just go back to being a single engine VFR instructor with a single engine test).

In simple terms you are trying to take a short cut to lots of extra expense on your part and no income to balance it against.

[ytsouk]

Hi to everyone.

I am currently hold an JAA CPL with FI(A) -IRI(A) with out restrictions and want to do the CRI(A). On my FAA ATPL I have more than 30hrs PIC on light multi engine aircraft. Are these hours ok to count for the 30hrs PIC that JAA required? Or I have to fly 30hrs on my JAA license ?

Thsnk you very much

Yannis

[DFC]

As long as the hours are legal and are gained in a manner that would be acceptable in accordance with JAR-FCL then it does not matter what licence you used.

An example of hours that would not count is the common US system of two pilots flying together and both logging PIC time. Most common with pilots who hire twins at very low rates for hour building - the rate being so low because there are two pilots logging the time!!!!!

So as long as you were legally and properly licensed as PIC and the only PIC on that flight then there would be no problem.

[ytsouk]

Thanks DFC for the answer.
The hrs that i have 100% legal ,As far as the MEP on my FAA is also legal because i rent the plane to built up some hrs and to do my MEI.
Can i find on JARs the point that it is said about my question for the flight hrs?

thanks

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Alister the time has come for you to quit talking and start listening.

Like bose-x said your thinking makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

There is only one sensible, workable and affordable way to gain multi engine experience and that is to find a job flying multi engine airplanes.

I am appalled at the mindset that tries to find a way around not having forty hours of experience on multi engine airplanes so they can teach others.

When I was gaining experience on flying multi engine airplanes it took me about ten years to progress to the DC3 and even though I had a few thousand hours on multi engine airplanes the airline that hired me had a policy of a minimum of 1000 hours as F.O. before even being considered for upgrade to captain never mind a training pilot.

So take a break here for a while and go sit down somewhere and start thinking of how selfish and unreasonable you are thinking that you should be allowed to teach something you can not possibly understand yourself.

Then get back to me and let me know if you finally see the light.

[mad_jock]

Thats easy.

Go fly the plane get the required number of hours and sit the course.

The quality of what you will provide to the customer will be pretty poor but hopefully you will stay alive long enough that eventually you will be useful.

O and I had a look at getting CRI MEP as well and with 50 hours MEP and 3000 plus turbo prop time I would have had to still build the same hours as you. Its been so long since I have flown one but I am sure there is more to it than remembering to put the mixture rich on finals compared to driving a TP.

O yes there is, its call experence and knowing what you are talking about.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:

" DFC has since answered that question Chuck with constructive advice. "

I apologize for having given you non constructive advice Alister and suggest you disregard it and only listen to those you perceive to have the knowledge and experience to guide you.

Good luck in your career and good luck to your students.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Pilots with low MEP hours can't get a job flying twins and you need a great deal of experience flying twins before you teach MEP. My question was, albeit badly worded, how do you get the experience in the first place without forking out tens of thousands of pounds on aircraft hire?

Unfortunately there is no easy answer to your problem and even spending the big bucks to rent an aircraft to achieve the minimum hours does really address the central issue. To be a safe and effective ME instructor you need a significant amount of real world operating experience, the kind you get when employed as a line pilot in a commercial operation. That combined with the the training and experience you allready have as a flight instructor will make you a competant instructor. There are no short cuts.

Finally even if you buy your 30 hrs, who is going to hire you when there are many pilots out there with lots of ME PIC ?

[Tinstaafl]

Alister, the short answer is that there is no shortcut. The hours required are the hours required, no different to the minimum hours for a licence. The problem is in your question: You've effectively asked how can you avoid a restriction that doesn't suit you, along with your *currently* inexperienced judgement that your skills would be sufficient at that point - and that's what has various experienced pilots concerned.

Your constant assertion that we must have been rich is baseless & sounds petulant. Most of us were in your situation. Only time & persistence will get you there. The questions you should be asking is "What is the cheapest way I can meet the hours?" and after that an honest appraisal of your skill & knowledge.

Sharecosting flights is a very good way to do build time. Get a bunch of mates or family together and head off somewhere for a day or seven. Not just short joyrides 'cos you run out of potential passengers before you gain the hours needed (depending on how many hours needed, of course). Going on trips offers the opportunity to see places & do things your passengers couldn't do conveniently otherwise. Skiing trips, golfing, duty free if international, island/airstrip hopping to sample whiskey in Scotland etc. And all flying done at a half, third or quarter of the full aircraft cost!

Another way can be if you work somewhere that has twins by going on the twin flights to fly the empty legs. This had the advantage that you get to see experienced pilots operating the aircraft and can learn from them.

[Mickey Kaye]

Alister
Could I give a slightly different slant on this and although not ideal (3000 hours single pilot IFR is) I wouldn’t regard it as unsafe.
A couple of instructors that I know are currently in the process of gaining their 30 Hours PIC. They have a good few years experience instructing on SEP and the company they work for needs some additional MEP instructors.

They have splashed out the cash and are both buying 30 hours PIC. However they are splitting the flying with one doing the outward leg and the other the inbound leg and visa versa.
I personally think this is a good method of gaining experience. I believe a person with 30 hours PIC and another 30 hours watching some one else flying their 30 hours PIC. Is in a better position than someone who has simply flown 30 hours PIC.
However at the end of the day if you have everyone has to start somewhere. If the regs state you need 30 hours PIC and you meet those requirements then you are entitled to do it.
I remember my first lesson spinning as an instructor. I had done it numerous before but the first time with a student who was relying on me to recover did make it feel a little different. However after a while it became second nature. I’m sure thats the same with your first MEP student.

[FlyingForFun]

Lack of spare time means it's so rare I get to read PPRuNe that I've only stumbled across this thread quite late on. I am quite surprised by what I'm reading.

To all those who say it is not possible to get a job with minimum experience - rubbish. I got a job with minimum experience, at a reputable school, and I've been doing that job for the last three and a half years.

Of course I have far more experience and knowledge now than I had when I started my job. But, aside from some personal touches which we all add with experience, I teach each of the flights on the MEP course in exactly the same way now as I did when I started the job and had very little experience - i.e. the way I was taught to teach them when I did the MEP-FI training.

Just as I did when I started out, if I come across a problem which I don't know the answer to, I ask my colleagues - some of whom have vastly more experience than me, and some of whom may have less total time than me but more experience relevant to the particular question that I've been asked. It happens less frequently now than it did then, but it still happens.

Thanks to being well-trained as an instructor, dedicated to my job, and having a good network of colleagues I could rely on for support, I don't feel that my instruction was sub-standard when I started doing the job just because I only had minimum hours, and this is proven by the fact that then, as now, my students had a very high pass rate at the ME-CPL and ME-IR and a high level of success in finding airline jobs (better then than now, although that's more to do with market factors than training factors).

As for employment - it is precisely because the 30 hours P1 MEP is so difficult for many people to meet that there is a serious lack of qualified and commited instructors out there. I actually got a couple of job interviews - including the interview at the school I now work at - before I had 30 hours P1 MEP, on the basis that my CV demonstrated that I was a commited instructor. Now I'm on the other side of the fence, I know how difficult it is to find instructors with the right attitude and the right qualifications. That is the reality of the ME instruction job market.

As for how to finance the experience-building - well, first of all, if you are a full-time FI, realise that you are looking at very quickly doubling or tripling your salary if you teach ME CPL and IR, so any investment you make in building experience will quickly be paid back.

There is a little advice on this thread already about how to gain the experience, and I would definitely agree with cost-sharing, which is how I gained much of my experience. Working as an FI at a busy PPL school brings you into contact with many people who have lots of spare cash and a serious interest in aviation.... your students! I had no problem whatsoever finding students who wanted to cost-share with me. Some of them wanting some hands-on experience in a twin, so I let them handle the controls (having explained carefully that I was not a qualified instructor on this class of aeroplane, so they would not be able to log the time). Some of them just wanted to go for a ride. Some wanted to experience airways flying - perhaps a student who has an IMC and is wondering what the next step is. One wanted me to demonstrate engine-failure drills in a twin, so he could understand better what he'd read in the theory books (even though he had no intention of doing the rating). But I had no problem finding people who wanted to cost-share with me, and the range of different things they wanted to do meant I ended up with a range of different experiences myself. In fact, I don't think I cost-shared with the same person twice in all of my experience-building.

I was also fortunate enough to have a good enough relationship with the school I rented a twin from that they gave me a couple of ferry flights, etc, to do, so I got a little free flying that way too.

Do please take on board the general attitude on this thread towards cost-cutting, doing things in minimum time, not giving your students value for money, etc. But, if you have the right attitude, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to get qualified, find a job and give a high standard of instruction to your students at a minimal cost to yourself.

Good luck!

FFF
------------

[Preparing for incoming..... but the schedule at work is looking busy, so I may not be around to read the counter-arguments for some time!]

[hugh flung_dung]

"Of course I have far more experience and knowledge now than I had when I started my job. " especially when it comes to saving tyre wear by only landing on 2 wheels :}
(well done, BTW :ok:)

HFD

[Go Smoke]

Quick Note- The 30 hours required by the CAA cannot include ME SPIC, PICUS or P1s hours.

[Mickey Kaye]

I knew ME SPIC didn't count but I thought/hoped PICUS did. Can anyone confirm. It doesn't say it doesn't count in Lasors - although it does imply it doesn't.

[Go Smoke]

Lasors is a little unspecific regarding the make up of the 30 hours stating only that ME SPIC time does not count towards the 30. However the policy department at CAA states that P1s and PICUS do not count.

ME SPIC and PICUS I can understand but P1s seem daft to me.

Basically you can jump in a multi and fart around doing nothing much of value for an hour and have that P1 time count, but a more demanding and valuable hour spent P1s on say your multi renewal flying assymetric approaches and go-arounds, recovery from unusual atts etc doesn't count........go figure?

This caught me out a couple of years ago when I did my multi instructor course.

If in doubt call the CAA.

[Mickey Kaye]

That’s abit annoying.

I have a LPC coming up to upgrade my BCPL to CPL and was looking at doing that in a twin.

If I had passed I would log it as PICUS and hoped it would get me another hour closer to the magic 30.

Oh well more expense.

[blobber]

All the TOOLS on here who Regularly post arsey comments on here are Pathetic. Get a Life. Aviation is about sharing ideas constructivly instead of thinking you know it all and jumping dont peoples throats, even if the questions seem stupid. ChumpsAreUs!

[S-Works]

Isn't that an arsey comment you just posted thus making you the very TOOL that you are lambasting?
;)

[blobber]

Yes, I'm afraid it does to a degree, although that was a one off! ;)

[S-Works]

Yes, I'm afraid it does to a degree, although that was a one off!

Yes, it starts that way.....

[MrAverage]

Don't forget the aircraft cannot have more than 4 seats.