MEP instructor courses

[theflyingbus]

Evening all

Would be greatful if anyone could suggest where I can do the training for a MEP instructor ticket, I am currently a FI (SEP)

A rough cost would be fantastic, the closer to London the better, but not essential

Thanks in advance

[S-Works]

Ontrack at Wellesbourne. I have done most of my Instructor and Examiner ratings with them over the years and they have been outstanding value and quality.

[Mickey Kaye]

Kevin Rowell at Sherburn in Elmet

Advanced Flight Training

[hugh flung_dung]

David Scouller at Thruxton (near Andover) 01264 773900

HFD

[theflyingbus]

Thanks guys

[madlandrover]

Also Craig Padfield at HGFC - training probably on their DA42 with the new Austro engines, 170hp a side and composite airframe

[Terry_flyer]

Try Atlantic Training Support at Coventry Airport - they have fantastic first class instructors / examiners. Highly recommended.

Did mine there - costings you should contact them but I believe you can either do the course on a C310 or PA44 or even your own a/c if you have one available at your disposal.

[DFC]

I would like to become a CRI too but 30 hours MEP PIC seems pretty expensive. Does anyone know of any cheap ways to get this time or any "loop holes" that allow for lower MEP PIC hours?

What knowledge / experience are you going to base your lessons on with less time?

Just as important, with less than 30 hours are you not going to be still learning MEP operation yourself.

Some advice - I would put your '"loop holes" that allow for lower MEP PIC hours' in the same bag as the "as soon as I get 1000 hours I want to be an examminer". There is one thing getting a rating in your licence. It is a big difference being able to efficiently teach as well as safely operate the aircraft and totally different thing being approved by an FTO i.e. getting to make use of the rating you have obtained.

Plenty of FTO's will take the money you pay for the course with the bare minimum hours. None of the reputable ones will employ you at the end of the course though.

The idea of finding a way to build the experience with the minimum cost to yourself is a much better idea. Cost sharing flights can reduce the multi time costs to 1/4 the hourly PPL Hire rate. i.e. do 40, pay for 10.

[S-Works]

Is there anything stopping someone from building the 30 hours PIC in a sim? Checked LASORS and there was no mention either way.

yes, the rules require you to have 30hrs on the type in which you want to teach.

I wouldn't teach/exam a subject I'm not comfortable with myself. Believe it or not good flying skills aren't solely based on hours.

Rubbish. Unless you think you are some sort of sky god?

Not wanting to start a war here but for gods sake if you want to teach something get the experience of it first. Hows in gods name do you think you can have the experience to teach MEP from sim time is beyond me.

Why do some people have to find a curve on a straight road all the time?

As an Instructor you should be familiar with LASORS and JAR FCL, but to help you out I have highlighted the relevant part that you seem to have overlooked in your keenness to find a loophole.

H3.3 CRI(SPA) COURSE FOR MULTIENGINE
AEROPLANES
In addition to the requirements below, please also refer to
the Instructor Ratings (Aeroplane) pre-requisites detailed
previously in Section H0.
An applicant for the issue of a CRI(SPA) rating for multiengine
aeroplanes shall have:
a. A valid Multi-Engine Piston (Land) Class or Single
Pilot Multi-Engine Type Rating.
b. Completed at least 500 hours flight time as pilot of
aeroplanes.
c. Completed at least 30 hours as PIC on the applicable
type or class of aeroplane prior to commencing the
course. It should be noted that ME SPIC time is not
allowable towards this 30 hours requirement.
d. Completed an approved course at an approved FTO
or TRTO including at least five hours flight instruction
on the aeroplane or a flight simulator given by an
instructor approved for this purpose (see Appendix
1 to JAR-FCL 1.380 and AMC FCL 1.380); and 25
hours* teaching and learning theoretical knowledge
training.
e. Passed the relevant elements of a FI Skill Test in a
single pilot, multi-engine aeroplane with a suitably
qualified FIE(A).

[DFC]

Cost sharing flights can reduce the multi time costs to 1/4 the hourly PPL Hire rate. i.e. do 40, pay for 10.

How does that work??

I will be kind and simply give you the explanation;

Cost sharing permits you to hire an aircraft, take 3 passengers flying and divide the cost equally between all four of you. Therefore if the aircraft costs 240 per hour, you will only pay 60 for that hour.

The minimum you can pay is

1/4 when you have 3 passengers
1/3 when you have 2 passengers
1/2 when you have 1 passenger

Since this is a minimum contribution, you can choose to for example pay 120 per hour and have your 3 passengers contribute 40 each per hour.

Therefore if you do 40 hours flying with 3 passengers and the cost is divided equally, the 40 hours has cost you the same as flying 10 hours if you paid it all yourself. i. fly 40 pay for 10.

-------------

Is there anything stopping someone from building the 30 hours PIC in a sim?

Simulator time is not PIC, PUT, SIC or any other form of time. It is simulator time. It is recorded totally separate from the time in an aircraft and with 1 exception can not be appied to anything other than the simulator time element of a training course.

[S-Works]

Quote:
Why do some people have to find a curve on a straight road all the time?

Because some people aren't rich

That does not give you the right to cut corners. The only people who suffer as a result of this are your students. Why should they pay for you to learn when it is your job to educate?

It is little wonder Instructors are left at the bottom of the food chain.

[S-Works]

Your only chance if you are not going to pay for the hours is get a job flying a twin. oh hang on, you won't get a job flying a twin because you don't have the experience. Therefore if you don't have the experience you will make a very poor Instructor.

I wouldn't teach something I'm not comfortable with myself. De ja vu??

And pray tell how are you going to be comfortable with teaching without this experience? Are you a bonafide 'Skygod'?

De ja vu?

The FAA require 15hrs of PIC in the type or class in which a rating is sought, in addition to the 5hrs of mandatory training for a ME rating or 3hrs if converting an ICAO rating. You are then required to do 3hrs of flight training for the rating and the you are required to have 5hrs on EACH SPECIFIC make and model that they wish to teach FAR 61.195 & 61.183 You will also need an FAA CPL and and FA CFI rating.

As a ME Examiner myself your posts make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up to be frank. Symptomatic of everything that is wrong with the flight training industry.

If you had an opportunity to get a job in aviation for as little cost as possible (and you weren't rich) I'm sure you would take it.

I have a job in aviation and to be frank a worked my ass of to get there. I had 500hrs P1 ME before I became an MEP Instructor and over a thousand hours on ME before I became an Examiner. The same for the type rated Aircraft I fly, teach and examine. You are nothing as an Instructor without experience and using your students to gain experience is criminal.

[hugh flung_dung]

Alister,
It's commonly said that there are more opportunities to kill yourself after an engine failure in a light twin than in a single. IMHO the minimum requirements are (if anything) somewhat low and it's rather worrying to see someone looking for ways to cut corners. The "standard" way of reducing the cost used to be to fill the aircraft up with fuel and go somewhere that allowed you to reclaim the fuel duty (and ideally also to bring back a load of duty-frees) - this isn't as easy as it was but it's still possible if you think about it - you could combine it with a weekend away with your mates.

With all due respect, you might want to consider whether it's wise to continue with what might be perceived as slightly naive questions/comments on a public FI/FE forum. Some of the recent questions and comments (how to join the RAF, how to become a test pilot, how to become an examiner, starting an RF, cutting corners on MEP instructional pre-reqs, whether an aircraft becomes "lighter"..., reaction time to correct an approach error, etc, etc) might be better asked of your flying chums.

I think you've said that you instruct at Bournemouth, which is one of the places I'm known to frequent from time-to-time. Send me a PM if we know each other.

(edited to add: Bose and I overlapped - I'm also an MEP examiner and fully endorse his comments. Bah, and to fix a typo.)

HFD

[DFC]

DFC - There aren't too many people who are going to pay that kind of money to simply sit back seat. Thx anyway though.

Even if they only pay £1, that is £1 of the costs saved by you.

Plenty of pilots have built experience in this way and I even know a few that used that method to gain experience of flying all over Europe rather than get an instructor rating and having the same 1 hour local flying thousands of times.

What kind of experience is required to become an FAA MEI? I've got around 40 hours of MEP already, problem is the PIC time though, I've only got 5 hours SPIC and that doesn't count int he JAA system...

No need to ask where you trained then!!!!

Forget the idea of finding a short-cut. Such talk makes people like me start thinking that the parker pen shortcut may already have been used if I ever looked at your logbook during an interview.

Like I said, lots of FTO's will sell you the course with minimum hours. None of them will employ you after. Rather than ask about the minimum hours to start the course, do some research into the experience FTO's require before you can teach multi VFR or multi IFR.

If you want to do something to progress, build up some IMC time and then get the no applied instrument restriction lifted and start teaching for the IMC rating and perhaps after showing some experience in that area get the chance to teach for the single engine IR and build from there.

You seem to be an a big hurry to collect badges. You seem to seek any available short cut and dismiss the well proven idea of saving your costs.

I'm pretty sure I already mentioned I wouldn't teach something I'm not comfortable with myself.

Then foregt about getting the qualification to teach Multi-engine / IR's. Holding the qualification is going to require you to keep your multi engine rating and IR curent - LPC every year and when it comes to renewing your instructor rating you are going to have to do it in a multi / IR instructional environment since you will not have done the required amount of multi IR training while the rating was valid (or just go back to being a single engine VFR instructor with a single engine test).

In simple terms you are trying to take a short cut to lots of extra expense on your part and no income to balance it against.

[ytsouk]

Hi to everyone.

I am currently hold an JAA CPL with FI(A) -IRI(A) with out restrictions and want to do the CRI(A). On my FAA ATPL I have more than 30hrs PIC on light multi engine aircraft. Are these hours ok to count for the 30hrs PIC that JAA required? Or I have to fly 30hrs on my JAA license ?

Thsnk you very much

Yannis

[DFC]

As long as the hours are legal and are gained in a manner that would be acceptable in accordance with JAR-FCL then it does not matter what licence you used.

An example of hours that would not count is the common US system of two pilots flying together and both logging PIC time. Most common with pilots who hire twins at very low rates for hour building - the rate being so low because there are two pilots logging the time!!!!!

So as long as you were legally and properly licensed as PIC and the only PIC on that flight then there would be no problem.

[ytsouk]

Thanks DFC for the answer.
The hrs that i have 100% legal ,As far as the MEP on my FAA is also legal because i rent the plane to built up some hrs and to do my MEI.
Can i find on JARs the point that it is said about my question for the flight hrs?

thanks

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Alister the time has come for you to quit talking and start listening.

Like bose-x said your thinking makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

There is only one sensible, workable and affordable way to gain multi engine experience and that is to find a job flying multi engine airplanes.

I am appalled at the mindset that tries to find a way around not having forty hours of experience on multi engine airplanes so they can teach others.

When I was gaining experience on flying multi engine airplanes it took me about ten years to progress to the DC3 and even though I had a few thousand hours on multi engine airplanes the airline that hired me had a policy of a minimum of 1000 hours as F.O. before even being considered for upgrade to captain never mind a training pilot.

So take a break here for a while and go sit down somewhere and start thinking of how selfish and unreasonable you are thinking that you should be allowed to teach something you can not possibly understand yourself.

Then get back to me and let me know if you finally see the light.

[mad_jock]

Thats easy.

Go fly the plane get the required number of hours and sit the course.

The quality of what you will provide to the customer will be pretty poor but hopefully you will stay alive long enough that eventually you will be useful.

O and I had a look at getting CRI MEP as well and with 50 hours MEP and 3000 plus turbo prop time I would have had to still build the same hours as you. Its been so long since I have flown one but I am sure there is more to it than remembering to put the mixture rich on finals compared to driving a TP.

O yes there is, its call experence and knowing what you are talking about.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Quote:

" DFC has since answered that question Chuck with constructive advice. "

I apologize for having given you non constructive advice Alister and suggest you disregard it and only listen to those you perceive to have the knowledge and experience to guide you.

Good luck in your career and good luck to your students.