Pilot says, ready for turning...

[Dr.Triax]

Hi guys,

This is a question for airline pilots, so I do not know if this is the place to put it. Anyways, here it goes:

Where I work, we give always vectors to the LLZ, asking for visual most of the Spanish crews when in the vicinity of the field. Some of the foreigners will report "ready for turning" when on a parallel heading opposite that of the LLZ (lasting two vectors for the final app. heading), but a few miles before I can vector them inbound to the gate. My question is, are they requesting visual or what? If so, that is not standard phraseology, so why not say ready for visual. I know they are not actually with the RWY in sight (it would be a "in contact" app), but that's fine...
So I go like "roger, right/left (whatever) turn at discretion, clear for straight-in app RWY00". How much do they turn? If not RWY in sight, are they in contact with the terrain or just following instruments? Are they assuming the responsibility to maintain separation with ground? I have checked the Spanish Air Regulations, but nothing about it...

Thanks for the help.
Dr. Triax

[Vortex Issues]

I presume the pilots are asking in a polite way "we've gone far enough downwind, can we turn base please?"

[Blockla]

I don't know the Spanish AIP/rules etc. but I wouldn't be turning anyone for base etc inside the standard IAP intercept points unless they have specifically declared "Visual".

If they report "ready for turning"; I would ask, confirm Visual before letting them turn in;' otherwise just continue vectors as you originally planned...

Where I used to work Noise Abatement was a significant issue, we couldn't let anyone over 5700Kg turn in, in specific areas of the approach despite the repeated requests... Pilots would report "visual" hoping for me to clear them to do their own thing, but I would just say "roger continue present heading, visual" etc.

[Dr.Triax]

Vortex, the traffic IFR is under radar vectors to the LLZ, so no downwind or base legs. I guess the right thing to do is what Blocka points, confirmation of visual contact. I need the opinion of a pilot, just to get an answer for the questions I have.

[ZOOKER]

Dr. Triax,
but surely your 'radar circuit' includes downwind, base leg and closing leg elements?

[CarbHeatIn]

I would guess that the pilot is letting you know he has enough track miles from where he is and can accept a base/closing turn whenever it suits you so as to enable a continuous descent.

[ShyTorque]

The pilots might actually be saying: "Ready for turn in", meaning they don't need any more track miles to get ready for final approach.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Precisely.

[Defruiter]

I would have thought that the only way you will find out exactly what they mean is to ask them when they next say it...

[DeltaGolf]

yeah, it's good that you share your opinions and experiences in a Forum, but if UNSURE or UNCLEAR of something while giving vectors - or receiving(pilots) you Have got to say, "say again" or say intentions?

hopefully you do that next time you hear that phraseology and share it with us

[Dr.Triax]

The pilots might actually be saying: "Ready for turn in", meaning they don't need any more track miles to get ready for final approach. Yes, I know he means that, BUT my question is how does he know it, if he has not given visual or terrain contact? Once he reports "visual", he is responsible for ground separation, but in this case?

[throw a dyce]

Where I work if aircraft report visual,or are happy to continue visually,then they are cleared for a visual approach,subject to traffic etc.
We only have one airline that regularly says ready for turning (Dutch/blue),and they are not visual.
I tend to just say roger,as they seem to be looking for a 3 or 4 mile final.It always seems to happen on 16 and they arrive from the south.Unfortunately the minimum on the ILS here is 5 miles,so I'll either stick to plan (a) which was 6 mile final,or turn them on a base leg which is aiming for 6 miles.Then you can slide them on the minimum 5 mile final,and they seem very happy with that.

[first_solo]

They are just asking for a short line up (even if they are still IMC)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Yes, I know he means that, BUT my question is how does he know it>>

I can't believe a controller would say that!! Pilots generally know roughly where they are...

[Ivor_Novello]

They usually know where they are with more accuracy than we do.. our information is about 4-5 seconds late... theirs is in real time ! ;)

Pilots flying traditional steam gauge navigation are usually very happy to receive headings, but a modern equipped "climate controlled aircraft, with signature individual tray table"*** with RNAV can self position for an ideal final just as accurately (if not better) than ATC can do !

Ready for turn simply means the pilot doesn't need / want another 5 miles downwind plus the base, and would like to be put on to final asap, which ATC usually try to oblige with, when traffic allows

*** Eastern airways Fleet - Eastern Airways (http://www.easternairways.com/training-and-simulation/eastern-airways-fleet.html)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Pilots............. can self position for an ideal final just as accurately (if not better) than ATC can do !>>

I would just say, with a smile Ivor, that a large percentage of aircraft I let turn on by themselves went hurtling through the localiser! We'd sit back laughing and say "If we did that, they'd moan"!!!

[eastern wiseguy]

This could also be symptomatic of controlling from the flight deck using TCAS. If they see no traffic they decide that (whatever your plan) they will dictate the traffic pattern. I had this the other evening. Tower ask for the inbound to be extended to allow an aircraft to get away on a tight slot. Couple of extra track miles for the inbound but an unneccesary call to me and a subsequent explanation to the aircraft( albeit a short one).
Most ATCO's can do range/descent profiles in their sleep and will not delay an aircraft unneccessarily.
Fly the aircraft, let me worry about the sequence and don't engage in superfluous chit chat.

[kijangnim]

Greetings
Personally, I prefer leaving it into the hands of Controllers, this is why (among other things) they are here for.:ok:
Most of the time we don't understand why some Tracks/altitude/speed are given, simply because we don't have the picture they have of all the traffic, whereas we are tunneled visioned by our own flight.:}
What I found particularly upsetting is when speeds are not respected, because some guys think they can do it better and start reducing/accelerating on their own. :ouch:

[Dr.Triax]

Hi guys,

today I had the chance to ask a RYR to confirm 'visual contact with terrain and ready for visuall app' when he said 'ready for turning' (the only one today to report it today). He replied, affirm, request visual app... so I guess that's it... but I will keep on asking, I do not fully trust RYR crews...:E

[John Boeman]

Personally I try to fly CDA’s as much as possible for economy reasons. There is a heck of a difference between our fuel flow while descending even at 4 or 500 feet per minute and flying level at say 4000 feet. At most airports we are not given any estimate of the track miles to run so we have to use our own judgment coupled with what we can see of other traffic on TCAS.

When on the rare occasion I use the phrase “ready for turning” it is explicitly to let the controller know that we have now got more than enough track miles remaining to comfortably take a turn for final approach while staying on profile and establishing on the ILS. This is just in case he is extending the downwind because he thinks we need the extra track miles when I know instead that any later turn is going to require me to fly a level segment and burn the considerable amount of extra fuel that entails (I have already factored my profile for speed reduction). Obviously, I know my aircraft and it’s abilities a lot better than he does.

If a turn is not forthcoming, I have no problem with it. It is simply a prompt that it would be “good” for us. It is not an attempt at “pilot control by TCAS” nor is it “unnecessary chitchat.”

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

It doesn't mean 'I'm visual'

It means 'for f%cks sake turn us in or we'll be up here all bloody day'.

Or less rude words to the same effect.:ooh:

[John Boeman]

To put it concisely! :ok:

[eastern wiseguy]

Where possible we attempt to provide CDA's They are compulsory for us at night. You will ALWAYS recieve a Range check PRIOR to the commencement of the final descent with the aim being that you commence your descent from 6000 feet and continue on the glidepath.

I say again that we do not delay you unneccesarily and you will only be given a period of level flight or extra track miles when required.

John Boeman...you use your judgement coupled with what you see on TCAS....please see my previous reply regarding the requirement of the tower. Any non standard R/T is unneccesary chit chat.

[John Boeman]

Eastern Wiseguy, your previous reply was what prompted me to post on this thread. Easily one of the most condescending posts I have seen in some time.

Even though I have a feeling it is a lost cause where you are concerned, I will try again. We operate into dozens of different European (mostly) airports each month. Some of these require CDA's. The majority do not. Nevertheless, traffic and everything else permitting I try, as I already said, and avoid flying the aircraft level at all times during an approach because, as we all know, that is when it is at its least fuel efficient and most noisy.

At most airports operating CDAs. we receive an estimate of track miles to run most of the time, not every time (obviously it would appear that I do not operate into yours). On the rare occasions I have used the "ready to turn any time" phrase, the response I got has even contained the word "sorry" more than once, believe it or not, suggesting that he/she had meant to turn us sooner.

The thing is EW, you are talking about what happens at your airport. Most of us pilots have to deal with more than several. If we are unaware of your airport's special procedures because it is not one we visit regularly, you have the choice of simply acknowledging such a transmission or if things were quiet you can choose to try the more human approach (we call it CRM) and say why you were delaying the turn. Instead it appears to irritate you that all pilots visiting the airport you work at don’t just do what they are told regardless. Sorry if I have you wrong, but that is the impression you give.

I will say again that if I can see no other conflicting traffic and a turn will not take me over a built up area and I can see there is not a queue of traffic waiting to take off on the landing runway etc etc then I will try and prompt a turn if we appear to be wastefully flying away from the airport. I repeat - it is only on the rare occasion that I do that (but it amounts to a few times when you consider that I am older than you!) I do not believe that is unnecessary chitchat but I have no doubt you will continue to disagree. So let’s agree to disagree.
(Oh, on the non standard R/T stuff, I bet even you have let an occasional “evening” or “bye” slip out during your career – but then again, maybe not.)

[mrwebs]

:D nice one John Boeman.

[throw a dyce]

John Boeman,
Well it is non standard R/T coming at a critical time.As I said before with the Dutch Airline,that their call for ready to turn in is often way too early.If I did as they asked they would have a non stabilised approach,intercepting above the glide.
I have had crossed transmissions with aircraft saying that they are ready for turn,and at the same time I'm calling them to turn them on base.:ugh:That takes time to sort out,and it leads to a little extra distance being covered downwind.
It seems to me that pilots say this at airports they think are quiet.A lot of the time they have got the quiet bit really wrong.It would be interesting if this phrase is heard much at Heathrow.
I don't say''evening'' or ''bye'' either.

[John Boeman]

No, throw a dyce, it is not coming at a critical time.

I thought I made it clear that I had taken everything I possibly could into account prior to using the phrase on the FEW occasions that I have done. That is what the etc, etc was meant to imply. On those occasions there has been no other traffic in the pattern (it was the middle of the night) and even on the occasion that I crossed with the controller he only had to repeat his brief call.

Look, I think we all agree that it would be a prattish thing to do in other than a quiet airport environment. And I don’t suppose the phrase is heard much at MAN, FRA, AMS, CDG, MAD or JFK either so not sure what has that got to do with it.

However, having said all of that, I think I have digressed somewhat from what was being asked at the beginning of this thread.

Posts Nos.2, 6, 7 & 8 already had the questions answered accurately IMHO.

I made the mistake of allowing myself to be irritated by post No.17. I shouldn’t have. I know it was not written by a troll but it sure as heck could have been.

Can I just say that like everyone else I constantly appreciate the cheerful and professional service given to us by the vast majority of the controllers we are lucky enough to have looking after us on this island. For the years of my career that I was based in LGW I recall that for the majority of our approaches, once below 7000’ one hardly had to move the thrust levers from idle before finals, the vectors and descent clearances were that timely.

Oh, and an “evening” and a “bye” was managed most of the time as well. :)
(It’s easy to please some of us you know.)

[throw a dyce]

John Boeman,
Well unless I've been missing something for the last few decades,the timing of turns for base,and final approach are the 2 most critical in Approach Radar.In the same way as you know what your aircraft is doing,I know what the minimum distance I can vector aircraft on final,24 hours a day.:)

[John Boeman]

"I know what the minimum distance I can vector aircraft on final,24 hours a day."

throw a dyce, no one any where here has even intimated that you didn't.

Can't help feeling that some of us here are talking at cross purposes and it would all be easily clarified with a face to face chat if only we could!

The "cringer" on the otherhand, :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Eric T Cartman]

The safest place for an aeroplane is on someone else's frequency - oops, delete that... - on the gound. Therefore if a pilot asks for an early base or short final & I can do it, it gets my vote everytime. But ,hey, what do I know - I'm an ATC Dinosaur - only 121 cycles till retirement :8