Pilot says, ready for turning...
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Pilot says, ready for turning...
Hi guys,
This is a question for airline pilots, so I do not know if this is the place to put it. Anyways, here it goes:
Where I work, we give always vectors to the LLZ, asking for visual most of the Spanish crews when in the vicinity of the field. Some of the foreigners will report "ready for turning" when on a parallel heading opposite that of the LLZ (lasting two vectors for the final app. heading), but a few miles before I can vector them inbound to the gate. My question is, are they requesting visual or what? If so, that is not standard phraseology, so why not say ready for visual. I know they are not actually with the RWY in sight (it would be a "in contact" app), but that's fine...
So I go like "roger, right/left (whatever) turn at discretion, clear for straight-in app RWY00". How much do they turn? If not RWY in sight, are they in contact with the terrain or just following instruments? Are they assuming the responsibility to maintain separation with ground? I have checked the Spanish Air Regulations, but nothing about it...
Thanks for the help.
Dr. Triax
This is a question for airline pilots, so I do not know if this is the place to put it. Anyways, here it goes:
Where I work, we give always vectors to the LLZ, asking for visual most of the Spanish crews when in the vicinity of the field. Some of the foreigners will report "ready for turning" when on a parallel heading opposite that of the LLZ (lasting two vectors for the final app. heading), but a few miles before I can vector them inbound to the gate. My question is, are they requesting visual or what? If so, that is not standard phraseology, so why not say ready for visual. I know they are not actually with the RWY in sight (it would be a "in contact" app), but that's fine...
So I go like "roger, right/left (whatever) turn at discretion, clear for straight-in app RWY00". How much do they turn? If not RWY in sight, are they in contact with the terrain or just following instruments? Are they assuming the responsibility to maintain separation with ground? I have checked the Spanish Air Regulations, but nothing about it...
Thanks for the help.
Dr. Triax
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I don't know the Spanish AIP/rules etc. but I wouldn't be turning anyone for base etc inside the standard IAP intercept points unless they have specifically declared "Visual".
If they report "ready for turning"; I would ask, confirm Visual before letting them turn in;' otherwise just continue vectors as you originally planned...
Where I used to work Noise Abatement was a significant issue, we couldn't let anyone over 5700Kg turn in, in specific areas of the approach despite the repeated requests... Pilots would report "visual" hoping for me to clear them to do their own thing, but I would just say "roger continue present heading, visual" etc.
If they report "ready for turning"; I would ask, confirm Visual before letting them turn in;' otherwise just continue vectors as you originally planned...
Where I used to work Noise Abatement was a significant issue, we couldn't let anyone over 5700Kg turn in, in specific areas of the approach despite the repeated requests... Pilots would report "visual" hoping for me to clear them to do their own thing, but I would just say "roger continue present heading, visual" etc.
Last edited by Blockla; 17th Nov 2009 at 18:06.
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Vortex, the traffic IFR is under radar vectors to the LLZ, so no downwind or base legs. I guess the right thing to do is what Blocka points, confirmation of visual contact. I need the opinion of a pilot, just to get an answer for the questions I have.
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I would guess that the pilot is letting you know he has enough track miles from where he is and can accept a base/closing turn whenever it suits you so as to enable a continuous descent.
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The pilots might actually be saying: "Ready for turn in", meaning they don't need any more track miles to get ready for final approach.
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yeah, it's good that you share your opinions and experiences in a Forum, but if UNSURE or UNCLEAR of something while giving vectors - or receiving(pilots) you Have got to say, "say again" or say intentions?
hopefully you do that next time you hear that phraseology and share it with us
hopefully you do that next time you hear that phraseology and share it with us
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The pilots might actually be saying: "Ready for turn in", meaning they don't need any more track miles to get ready for final approach.
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Where I work if aircraft report visual,or are happy to continue visually,then they are cleared for a visual approach,subject to traffic etc.
We only have one airline that regularly says ready for turning (Dutch/blue),and they are not visual.
I tend to just say roger,as they seem to be looking for a 3 or 4 mile final.It always seems to happen on 16 and they arrive from the south.Unfortunately the minimum on the ILS here is 5 miles,so I'll either stick to plan (a) which was 6 mile final,or turn them on a base leg which is aiming for 6 miles.Then you can slide them on the minimum 5 mile final,and they seem very happy with that.
We only have one airline that regularly says ready for turning (Dutch/blue),and they are not visual.
I tend to just say roger,as they seem to be looking for a 3 or 4 mile final.It always seems to happen on 16 and they arrive from the south.Unfortunately the minimum on the ILS here is 5 miles,so I'll either stick to plan (a) which was 6 mile final,or turn them on a base leg which is aiming for 6 miles.Then you can slide them on the minimum 5 mile final,and they seem very happy with that.
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<<Yes, I know he means that, BUT my question is how does he know it>>
I can't believe a controller would say that!! Pilots generally know roughly where they are...
I can't believe a controller would say that!! Pilots generally know roughly where they are...
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They usually know where they are with more accuracy than we do.. our information is about 4-5 seconds late... theirs is in real time ! 
Pilots flying traditional steam gauge navigation are usually very happy to receive headings, but a modern equipped "climate controlled aircraft, with signature individual tray table"*** with RNAV can self position for an ideal final just as accurately (if not better) than ATC can do !
Ready for turn simply means the pilot doesn't need / want another 5 miles downwind plus the base, and would like to be put on to final asap, which ATC usually try to oblige with, when traffic allows
*** Eastern airways Fleet - Eastern Airways
Pilots flying traditional steam gauge navigation are usually very happy to receive headings, but a modern equipped "climate controlled aircraft, with signature individual tray table"*** with RNAV can self position for an ideal final just as accurately (if not better) than ATC can do !
Ready for turn simply means the pilot doesn't need / want another 5 miles downwind plus the base, and would like to be put on to final asap, which ATC usually try to oblige with, when traffic allows
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<<Pilots............. can self position for an ideal final just as accurately (if not better) than ATC can do !>>
I would just say, with a smile Ivor, that a large percentage of aircraft I let turn on by themselves went hurtling through the localiser! We'd sit back laughing and say "If we did that, they'd moan"!!!
I would just say, with a smile Ivor, that a large percentage of aircraft I let turn on by themselves went hurtling through the localiser! We'd sit back laughing and say "If we did that, they'd moan"!!!
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This could also be symptomatic of controlling from the flight deck using TCAS. If they see no traffic they decide that (whatever your plan) they will dictate the traffic pattern. I had this the other evening. Tower ask for the inbound to be extended to allow an aircraft to get away on a tight slot. Couple of extra track miles for the inbound but an unneccesary call to me and a subsequent explanation to the aircraft( albeit a short one).
Most ATCO's can do range/descent profiles in their sleep and will not delay an aircraft unneccessarily.
Fly the aircraft, let me worry about the sequence and don't engage in superfluous chit chat.
Most ATCO's can do range/descent profiles in their sleep and will not delay an aircraft unneccessarily.
Fly the aircraft, let me worry about the sequence and don't engage in superfluous chit chat.
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Personally, I prefer leaving it into the hands of Controllers, this is why (among other things) they are here for.
Most of the time we don't understand why some Tracks/altitude/speed are given, simply because we don't have the picture they have of all the traffic, whereas we are tunneled visioned by our own flight.
What I found particularly upsetting is when speeds are not respected, because some guys think they can do it better and start reducing/accelerating on their own.
Personally, I prefer leaving it into the hands of Controllers, this is why (among other things) they are here for.
Most of the time we don't understand why some Tracks/altitude/speed are given, simply because we don't have the picture they have of all the traffic, whereas we are tunneled visioned by our own flight.
What I found particularly upsetting is when speeds are not respected, because some guys think they can do it better and start reducing/accelerating on their own.
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Hi guys,
today I had the chance to ask a RYR to confirm 'visual contact with terrain and ready for visuall app' when he said 'ready for turning' (the only one today to report it today). He replied, affirm, request visual app... so I guess that's it... but I will keep on asking, I do not fully trust RYR crews...
today I had the chance to ask a RYR to confirm 'visual contact with terrain and ready for visuall app' when he said 'ready for turning' (the only one today to report it today). He replied, affirm, request visual app... so I guess that's it... but I will keep on asking, I do not fully trust RYR crews...
Personally I try to fly CDA’s as much as possible for economy reasons. There is a heck of a difference between our fuel flow while descending even at 4 or 500 feet per minute and flying level at say 4000 feet. At most airports we are not given any estimate of the track miles to run so we have to use our own judgment coupled with what we can see of other traffic on TCAS.
When on the rare occasion I use the phrase “ready for turning” it is explicitly to let the controller know that we have now got more than enough track miles remaining to comfortably take a turn for final approach while staying on profile and establishing on the ILS. This is just in case he is extending the downwind because he thinks we need the extra track miles when I know instead that any later turn is going to require me to fly a level segment and burn the considerable amount of extra fuel that entails (I have already factored my profile for speed reduction). Obviously, I know my aircraft and it’s abilities a lot better than he does.
If a turn is not forthcoming, I have no problem with it. It is simply a prompt that it would be “good” for us. It is not an attempt at “pilot control by TCAS” nor is it “unnecessary chitchat.”
When on the rare occasion I use the phrase “ready for turning” it is explicitly to let the controller know that we have now got more than enough track miles remaining to comfortably take a turn for final approach while staying on profile and establishing on the ILS. This is just in case he is extending the downwind because he thinks we need the extra track miles when I know instead that any later turn is going to require me to fly a level segment and burn the considerable amount of extra fuel that entails (I have already factored my profile for speed reduction). Obviously, I know my aircraft and it’s abilities a lot better than he does.
If a turn is not forthcoming, I have no problem with it. It is simply a prompt that it would be “good” for us. It is not an attempt at “pilot control by TCAS” nor is it “unnecessary chitchat.”