EGCN/DSA Departure

[a400]

For those who fly DSA.

What do you fly in IMC out of DSA, what departure.
We have been cleared always RWY 20 - 20 SOUTH departure to ROGAG ( ref. JEP 10-3B DSA) or 02 RWY same chart.

Under remarks: "2. These routes are not assessed for obstacle clearance and do not constitute SIDs" :sad:

There is no other SID to Rogag.

Remark no "5. Aircraft unable to comply are required to obtain a non-standard clearance from ATC before departure"
Obtaining non-standard clearance seems to be a problem for ATC, and nobody from my company do it. :hmm:

Any guys from Thompson for advise on there experience, please.

Thanks

[DFC]

The only SID is via UPTON

In simple terms that means the departure sid takes you to upton and then you follow the ATS routes to rogag.

The reason is that the base of controlled airspace east of the CTA is FL105 and if you depart and turn direct rogag you could easily end up outside controlled airspace.

Thus the chart you are referring to is not an SID procedure and hence the disclaimers attached.

If you are happy that either you are light enough to follow the procedure described and and either the climb will keep you in controlled airspace or you don't mind being outside then if ATC are happy you can leave controlled airspace to the east and (with an appropriate clearance) rejoin climbing towards rogag.

All that the chart writers have done is copy the words from the AIP.

In the UK SIDs are always contained within controlled airspace. "Departure Procedures" may not be.

Essentially - are you (or your company) happy to take your passengers outside controlled airspace in that part of the world or not. That is what you have to ask yourself.

[9.G]

a400 the routes aren't SIDs meaning no analysis for obstacle clearance has been accomplished. The mere fact of being placed outside controlled airspace is not necessarily coherent with the obstacle assessment. Sometimes like in NAP you'll see something like obstacles protruding above 2,5% OIS exist and not taken into account for departure though it's a controlled airspace. Bela Italia always good for a surprise :ok:

[DFC]

Sometimes like in NAP you'll see something like
Quote:obstacles protruding above 2,5% OIS exist and not taken into account for departure
obstacles protruding above 2,5% OIS exist and not taken into account for departure
though it's a controlled airspace. Bela Italia always good for a surprise http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Why be surprised?

It is standard ICAO procedure. Close in obstacles less than 200ft may not be taken into account when deciding the promulgated climb gradient. A warning will be added to the chart and the obstcacles will be notified.

Seem to remember that Bela Leeds had something like that but it may have changed.

The UK is the only country where lots of IFR airports have no ATS, No departure procedures and no Approach procedures. Makes Italy seem positively normal!! :D

[9.G]

DFC, not aware of such standards. Have you got a reference by chance? No info about the obstacles either. However willing to learn by all means.:ok:

[DFC]

The reference is ICAO DOC 8168. Vol 1 Briefly touches on the subject but if you look in Vol 2 there is more detail.

[9.G]

DFC, thanx had a look at it. Indeed it's a little note on the usual diagram reflecting SID design criteria which is easily overlooked. VOl II gives a clearer picture the position and height of close-in obstacles penetrating the OIS. A note shall be included on the departure chart wherever close-in obstacles exist which were not considered in the determination of the published procedure
design gradient (PDG) (see Figure II-3-2-3 in Chapter 2); Well, in practical terms spoken, what consequences does it have? Any idea?:ok:

[Coldbear]

Hey guys,

This is what I got from the Navtech charts:

Runway 20 South departure:

"Climb ahead to 500 or D0.5 IFNL
whichever later, turn right to
track 210°M. At D1.5 IFNL turn
right to track 250°M and at D3.5
IFNL turn left to intercept R322
GAM to GAM. At D2 GAM turn
left to intercept the R099 GAM to
ROGAG. Climb not above FL80
initially. Climb when instructed
to cross ROGAG level or above
FL160."

Also to be noted:

1. These routes are not accessed for obstacle clearance and do not constitute Standard
Instrument Departure procedures.
2. The above routes include the Noise Preferential Routes.
3. Climb Performance Planning - Nominal climb gradient 8%.

Martin

[ask26]

Having said all that, there is an ILS 02, if you follow the track 200 after departure off 20, maintaining a 3deg climb gradient minimum to MSA 3100ft (approx 10 miles) then left turn to Rogag in uncontrolled airspace, then you would I believe fulfill any obstacle issues in that direction.

The left turns at 0.5 and 2.5nm are mainly for Noise Abatement around Bawtry.

[Coldbear]

Just checked the departure chart again and since Navtech provides eng. fail also - they say: straight ahead to 1600feet then left turn to FNY HP.

hope this helps,

Martin

[DFC]

if you follow the track 200 after departure off 20, maintaining a 3deg climb gradient minimum to MSA 3100ft (approx 10 miles) then left turn to Rogag in uncontrolled airspace, then you would I believe fulfill any obstacle issues in that direction.



I would not automatically assume that being able to climb an 5.2% (3 degrees) after departure OEI to a gross altitude of MSA meets the requirements of the OPS Rules because many other issues come into play such as in general;

1. The ILS GS crosses the departure end threshold at 50ft. If you are field limited, you will cross that threshold at 35ft dry (15ft below the slope you are using to clear obstacles) and if it is wet you cross the threshold at 15ft a whole 35ft below the surface you are relying on to clear obstacles by guess what - yes 35ft!!

So if the runway is wet and you need it all, the required net climb profile will parallel your surface 35 feet below which means (in theory) that you are bouncing along nicely at the tops of the obstacles!!!!!!

2. You have to both get to a gross altitude of MSA and accelerate to final take-off speed within the climb thrust limit - possible here but other places may not be so kind. You may get up to the MSA but struggle to accelerate to final take-off speed within 30nm from the point on which the MSA is based - which is unlikely to be reference zero.

3. The method you describe could be very restrictive - work back from having to cross the departure end of the runway at 50ft and see where your 15ft wet reference zero is. This is the point that defines the end of your effective TODA in the wet and will be quite restrictive.

To me, the only issue with taking the departure procedure and not either the only SID or a non-standard clearance remainng within controlled airspace to ROGAG is that the flight (a public transport oprtation) will leave the protection of controlled airspace in an area of high military activity - when the airspace has been designed and procedures put in place that do not make that an essential requirement. Therefore such a routing is optional and must only be taken when all the possible safety issues have been mitigated. In other words - Captains decision keeping within the Part A rules. Think of the result of an Airprox with a fast jet while taking the "short-cut".

The airport has covered it's ass in all respects and passed the book to the company / PIC!!

Quite ironic that for many decades public transport flights departing regional airports into the most frequented and bussiest areas of military flying have not had the protection of controlled airspace - because of course the military object to their operations being restricted in any way. - Newcastle, Teesside and now Doncaster spring to mind!

Domcaster's airspace was not designed to facilitate departures to the east. The only option for such flights is to route initially towards the MTMA and then do a 180 to once again fly past the departure aerodrome climbing. Not a good idea for Pilots, Companies, passengers or ATC. Who is it good for?