BA to get 30% rise

[Underdog]

OK, :) so it'd be nice - but will it happen?

I heard the other day that this sort of figure will be pushed for by Balpa - but it depends on what Luftie and others get. :rolleyes:

Now before people start slagging me/us off for earning too much anyway let me explain that I am now - after 4 years with BA - just about taking home what I did as a 3 year FO with the 'tourists' in 1997 http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

There are people earning considerably more and some earning less (cadets).

Rather than a 30% across the board rise a better (for me ;) ) solution would be to give an enhanced rise to the lowly scum and less to those nearer the surface of the pond. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

What do think guys? Should BALPA be chasing a straight percentage or a 'staged' rise?

I flew with a Balpa rep the other day and he said the feeling was definitely strong enough from the junior ranks to go for industrial action :mad: but thought the more senior (i.e. about to retire ) guys are sitting pretty and couldn't be bothered to support us.

How did the guys at Luftie garner enough support for their action?

ATB,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

ps just found out how smileys work :)

[JPJ]

I am not a pilot. I no longer work. But:

"Now before people start slagging me/us off for earning too much anyway let me explain that I am now - after 4 years with BA - just about taking home what I did as a 3 year FO with the 'tourists' in 1997"

i) Did you know the rules when you applied?
ii) If so, why did you apply?

It's a free country, and anyone can apply for any job they are qualified for. So what is the problem?

Most people aren't pilots, and most people earn less than those who are pilots. I have no problem with that, but will the pilots who leave one job for another, and then don't like it when they get there, please look elsewhere for sympathy?

[L337]

That seems a little harsh. He was stating fact, not looking for sympathy.

L33T

[JPJ]

Sorry, L337, you may be right. On the other hand, it is as well that the many posters to and readers of this site remember that there is a world out there in which lots of people earn more or less sod-all, and that those of us who are comfortably off might occasionally admit that we are among the lucky ones.

But good luck to the ones who make it - it's a bit of humility that I would like to see.

[Carnage Matey!]

Humility be damned! What I earn is nothing to do with anyone else. There are people much better off than me and people far worse off but that doesn't mean I shouldn't push for the best I can get just to protect the feelings of others!

As for the staged rise, I believe this is fairly close to BALPAs thinking, particularly as the results of the comparative pay study suggest this is where the major pay imbalances lie between us and out competitors. I don't believe you'll see much support from our long haul brethren so I suggest we reduce the FHR for all flights >6hrs and redistribute the savings to short haul crews who do the real work in the company. In terms of relative workload in the flying day I can't really see how the long haulers can justify the sums they earn whilst sleeping in the bunk! At least this would stir up some interest from them instead of the usual apathy!!!

Tin hat on!

[sudden twang]

the inevitable conversation arose on the crew bus the other day . stdss when pilot pay rise mentioned stated oh well we should get a rise as well . this will be BA's defence .

whatever you do don't rob peter to pay paul we will all be paul or there abouts when our time comes alienate the senior guys and we're finished before we start .

ps I'm very cheap for the company in my role so no axe to grind

[xsimba]

Good luck to you chaps. However, I doubt very much whether Balpa have the balls to push for 30%. They promised us lots of jam at Virgin earlier this year only to let us down badly when the time came to get tough.

You must make it absolutely clear to the likes of Mr Darke that you are unwilling to accept anything other than a substantial increase. We are falling behind everybody else - time to put a stop to the constant degradation of our packages.

[Notso Fantastic]

LPJ...."I am not a pilot. I no longer work. But:"......But in that case, what the hell are you doing in a 'Professional Pilots Network' and precisely why do you feel your opinion is wanted or welcome here in an area that is non of your business. There are too many loudmouths like you and Guvnor and some Bus-ground guy making uninformed and unwelcome comments in areas not of your concern! You are the weakest link....Goodbye!

[This message has been edited by Notso Fantastic (edited 29 May 2001).]

[overstress]

Likewise.

LPJ: your comments have no place here.

Underdog: come & join us in the BA forum where your observations have plenty of relevance

Anyone else: BA pilots are perfectly entitled, through the proper channels, to push for whatever payrise the market will stand. So there.

[JPJ]

NSF:

Neither you nor I live in a vacuum. There is a world beyond aviation, and you are part of it, like it or not. Just because you don't like my views, there is no need to be rude now, is there?

PS it's JPJ.

[whats_it_doing_now?]

Dammit, a good sounding thread ruined by mud-slinging!

[knows]

Xsimba and Notso Fantastic - good observations!!!

[maxalt]

Bloody nationalised 'flag carrier' airlines like BA and ALT have had their chips.

Roll over you dinosaurs, you're history.

30% my a**e....

[L337]

aaaaaaaah I smell jealousy! Let me guess, BA turned you down. Poor thing.

:)

[Bigpants]

I wish some of you would read the papers especially the business and appointments pages. You might then appreciate how crap pilot pay generally is eg "Cauldwell Communications looking for top graduates for fast track management scheme...starting salary £60,000..those who make it to Directorships £500,000pa"

That may be the top end but read the papers on any given day and you will find careers that many of us could or did pursue that pay far far more than any UK pilot is currently getting.

[exeng]

Maxalt,

BA a nationalised carrier! Perhaps you have been trapped in a time warp.


Regards
Exeng

[beamer]

If BA can get their union ( oops, sorry, our
Union)to get them 30% then good luck to them.
They have been overpaid for years when the
various allowances are taken into account but
that perception is only true when taken into
account against other UK operators - the same
view cannot be held when viewed against the
world's major players - some of whom have
gone of course in part due to labour costs !

BALPA's recent performance in pay negotiations seems to have been little short
of pathetic especially when a newly gained
recognition means that subscriptions increase
thus reducing in part the benefit of any increase.

One of the problems facing BALPA and indeed
any other negotiating body is that we as a
group tend to be conservative (small 'c') by
nature. We are unlikely to go down the road
of industrial action unlike some of our
EU colleagues and as such we are seen as a
soft touch. Many are just so damn grateful to
have a job despite years of training and much
expense that they become sycophantic in their
attitudes to THE COMPANY.

So who is at fault ? The Companies want the
most for the least. BALPA are too concerned
with BA yet are themselves hindered by pilot
indifference. I don't pretend to have the
magic wander so where do we go from here ?

[porpoise]

not so fantastic how dare you slag jpj. he/she is perfectly entitiled to an opinion and many of our members are concerned about how they will be received in the wider community should we as pilots strike for a better pay rise than the others in our company. We have to explain our case better not slap down anybody who disagrees. Most of the cadets now too far down the road of a pilot career to change could have done many of the other careers around. Most of us had degrees from good universities. If we are now struggling to buy a house near our base in the southeast then we should argue that our career has not kept pace with others and we want to sort it out. But try to be nice about it because we have to work and live in these communities afterwards.

[TEMP0+TSRAGR]

I agree with Underdog - I joined BA as a DEP but took a hefty pay cut from a much smaller regional airline.
I threw away 6 years seniority and a good lifestyle to join BA in the hope conditions and pay would be better.
Conditions on mainline are good, roster stability is brilliant, but basic pay is cr*p.

I have plenty of friends who like me were messed around by BA for 2 years in the DEP hold pool (even re-interviewed) who when the offer eventually came turned BA down.

BA has a very arrogant attitude, they think they are better than everybody else, think pilots are queing up to join them, think they pay above average ......

BA will have to start offering qualified pilots something sensible if they hope to attract DEP's over the next few years ...

[SQ7000]

Read this again!


http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/013491.html

[maxalt]

L337....turned down??!! You have gotta be jokin'.

Why don't you whingers chuck it in at BA and come to FR and earn that 30% pay rise. :)

Exeng...just cause you're 'gone public' in BA don't think that means you have any credit with me regarding your 'free market credentials'. It takes more than that sonny.

[snooky]

If he was'nt turned down I can only think it's because he did'nt apply.

On a more serious note, BA pilots do deserve the quoted 30% rise, at least. They have tolerated small rises for years and these savings to BA have been squandered by mis- management. They now lag behind the world and have some catching up to do.

FR and the others will eventually follow. If the BA pilots are successful the market rate in the UK in general will rise.

[autobrakemedium]

JPJ, you are an idiot!

What other jobs do you know of where many people have spent between £20,000 to £60,000 to get qualified, then spent years trying to get a job with an airline whilst earning a pittance instructing.

I know that we all have a choice, but we deserve what we get paid, not least becuase we have a lot of responsibilty, work sh1jty hours, social life suffers and we put in A LOT of hard work to get here.

[The Guvnor]

Look, you signed a contract when you joined your company which almost certainly stipulates how much you will be paid and by how much that will be increased.

As long as your employer has played a straight game with you, you're not entitled to change the rules in mid-channel.

Demanding huge pay increases in the middle of a recession is also a great way of finding out what the inside of a dole office looks like! :rolleyes: :)

[xsimba]

Didn't think it would take long before we saw the Guvnor and his ramblings!!

[knows]

Guvnor states "you're not entitled to change the rules in mid-channel". I wonder what he makes of Lufthansa mgt reducing pay by 30% and simultaneously making promises to reinstate it when the airline enters profit.

[This message has been edited by knows (edited 31 May 2001).]

[Notso Fantastic]

Why does any mention of airline pilot remuneration bring all the non-involved idiots like Guvnor and LPJ out of the woodwork feeling they have to make an input into something that is not of any concern to them. I remind all- this is a Professional Pilots Network for PROFESSIONAL PILOTS.....Gerrit. Other opinions may be relevant, but if it becomes an area for non aviation persons to attack professional pilots, then their input is not welcome and professional pilots will increasingly retreat to their private areas!

[Carnage Matey!]

Anyone see the Daily Mail a couple of days ago and their report on solicitors salaries in London? Apparently on completion of two years training (during which they are paid substantially more than your average CAP509er) starting salaries in the city are circa £80k, and starting salaries in regular high street solicitors have risen by 30% in recently to around £35K. Where's the outcry over these salaries? Why aren't they 'overpaid and underworked'? At least your average pilot doesn't start a stopwatch every time he answers the phone then charge by the minute!

[beaver eager]

Guvnor,

Just to put the record straight, a recession is when the GDP of a country is falling year on year. I think you'll find that the UK has experienced a sustained period of GROWTH for quite a few years now.

It's a pretty basic concept.

[The Guvnor]

Knows - if done unilaterally, without consultation and agreement, it's ethically as wrong as what the VC are doing at the moment. When a company has financial problems, it's normal for it to ask its staff to take paycuts - in preference to layoffs - but then that lost pay needs to be restored in full.

Carnage Matey - solicitors (at least top commercial ones) and especially barristers undergo considerably more training - and are, quite frankly, considerably more skilled, than your average pilot.

Incidentally, I understand that Inland Revenue classifies pilots as 'semi-skilled'!! :) :) :)

[Pontius P]

xsimba I have no reason to defend BALPA. However, what lever do you think BALPA has for forcing a company to do anything? The only "muscle" the Union has is when members are prepared to take industrial action. The fact is, that members seldom take industrial action. Will someone please tell me how the Union is supposed to achieve anything without support from the membership?

[JPJ]

Before everyone gets too excited over solicitors' pay (I am not one, but I do know a bit about it) the huge figures quoted in the Press apply to a tiny number of City firms. In reality, plenty of High Street solicitors are pushed to make more than £30k or so. A newly qualified City solicitor will start on about £40-45k, and the senior ones make loads, but the big firms only take on people with a 2:1 or better from a decent university, who have passed a demanding selection process. The Crown Prosecution Service, for example, offers in the low £20ks for someone who must have done a degree then a postgrad course then two years' training before qualifying.

The grass is always greener!

[This message has been edited by JPJ (edited 31 May 2001).]

[xsimba]

Pontius P - you are quite right, the members do have the final say and need to make it quite clear to their council exactly what they expect.

The problem we had in Virgin was Balpa 'commending' an offer to us. While some of us actually examined the offer and decided to reject it on the basis of being inadequate, too many people just took the council's 'commendation' at face value and voted yes.

The council were left in no doubt before serious negotiations began that we were all pretty unhappy and that there was a groundswell of support for hard bargaining. The council, it appears got too cosy with the management and folded after the first serious round of negotiating. Had the company council not 'commended' the offer and mereley left people to make up their own minds, I suspect the vote may have been different to the 51% to accept, 49% to reject. We are sometimes our own worst enemy!

[minogue]

As I have said in other postings, I'm not a pilot. Many of you appear to think therefore that I have no place posting here. Those who feel this way, please pass on to the next poster.

I make no comment on what a captain should or should not earn. A few points worthy of consideration though are

1) BA profitibility, although better, is still c..p particularly during a booming economy. BA has to make an adequate long term return to its shareholders to continue to exist. It is clear there is no easy fat waiting to be distributed to flight crew.
2) Flight crew costs represent a significant part of BA cost base. Anything like a 30% increase in pay would require BA management to take drastic action to repair this impact on the bottom line. In reality there are two main possibilities
a) Cut costs in other areas. Given that customer service in a cutthroat industry is sacrisanct, this in practise means other staff groups will need to be paid less or jobs in these areas cut
or b) routes that were profitable under old cost base will be unprofitable after the salary hike and will be cut. Less flying means less jobs for all staff groups ... including flight crew.

Some of you may care about this, others may not. Your choice.

[snooky]

I think that the proportion of costs attributable to flight crew is generally overestimated. I don't have any specific figures, but I think it's less than 5% of total costs for the large aircraft as operated by BA.
30% of 5% is less than 2%, and this increase in opereating costs is hardly going to have the dire consequences predicted by some posters here.
If the pay is'nt right, the industry will in the long term not attract the right calibre of people. I think that most passengers would gladly pay an extra 2% to have the right calibre of people at the sharp end.

[Underdog]

Well, well! I have stirred up a hornets nest. :)

I dunno, go to India for a quick curry and look what happens whilst I'm away!

Plenty of vitriol going around. Anyway, just to respond to a couple of points.... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

The guvnor :- it's obvious you don't work for BA otherwise you'd know just how arrogant the company is - as someone else pointed out. I signed a letter of acceptance for the job, part of which said that I agreed to their terms and conditions of their offer of employment. The only way to see these terms and conditions was to go to Meadowbank and look them up - they were never sent to people. Whilst it may be true that basic information such as starting salary may have been quoted, the full picture of what we were letting ourselves in for only started to appear once we were on line and others warned us of the many pitfalls of working for BA. Details such as being able to be moved at the companies behest to any fleet in the 1st 5 years - and so on. Many people joined BA thinking the grass was greener - and BA notably encouraged that view, and still does - only to find it was a different shade of brown! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

To the guy who suggested I join FR and 'earn' my money. :mad: What makes you think that you 'earn' your money and we don't 'earn' ours? You obviously haven't got a clue what LH flying (or SH for that matter) in BA is about or you wouldn't make such stupid comments. I don't attack your work at FR, probably because I know a few people there (or ex-there) and appreciate your work albeit markedly different to ours. Just because our job is different from yours doesn't devalue it in any way.

To anyone who thinks I was looking for sympathy - I wasn't, I was merely stating the facts. I can't disguise the fact that I may be a little p!ssed off with my lack of financial progress during my career, but there you go.

Anyway, talking to some colleagues earlier today it seems they are of the same mind and want to see a dramatic increase in our pay. Having said that, they have as much faith in Balpa as the Virgin guys. :rolleyes:

Tin hat back on.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

[The Zombie]

Time to all pull together and let the idiots at BA Flight Ops Management know how we feel.

-------------------------------------------

Only one (DB), out of all the senior managers at BA Flt Ops, has any respect from the pilots. All the rest are hated with no respect or trust (LCG/PD/TS/SS etc.).

--------------------------------------------

CD at BALPA also has an up hill task as he is up for re-election and support is reducing for him !
Just my observations over the last few weeks.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.........

[Jennifer Lopez]

You guys seem to be have a pretty good unity going for you, I'm sure you will get your 30% raise. NOT!!!

Also I thought one poster was talking about CX when I read..... >>>>BA has a very arrogant attitude, they think they are better than everybody else, think pilots are queing up to join them, think they pay above average ......<<<<<

Good luck, and also,please don't bring down the new standard set by UA, DL and also soon, AA. Just keep up the good work, like Luftwaffe, and don't try to be like Qantas...

[FL390]

Guvnor.........

When you say that it is not unreasonable for an airline to ask for pay cuts when they are in financial problems.......what do you say about CX management cutting salaries by over 30% in the last few years when they are making record profits???????????

[kippa]

I hear that BA pilots still make a contribution to the corporate purse of 4.5% each year.

Apparantly at the time of the Gulf War morale was so high the lads and lasses of Big Airways took pity on their highly regarded management and gave them part of their annual pay rise back!! The deal was, I am told, that when times got better the contribution made would be reinstated.

Despite profit share, dividends etc. doesn't look like times are good enough to give the boys and girls their pay increase of ten years ago?

[Nosferatu]

Calling "The Zombie" , or anyone else that may know:

Sorry to go off message, but since you clearly are familiar with BA Ops Management, could you, or any of yoour colleagues, give us here at BA CitiExpress an idea of what our new boss is like.
T dl F, (and his cohorts A M and G S) have been imposed on us by our new owners - your Board. Obviously, making record profits year on year shows we don't know much about Airline Flying - despite being the most profitable Airline in the Uk last year (in terms of % return on turnover)
So, any comments? Can we expect a gentle re-education, or the dead hand of BA Bureaucratic S.O.P.
What are these guys like to deal with, they were all BA or BA Regional before coming to show us a thing or two? Got any form ?
Listening out.

[This message has been edited by Sick Squid (edited 03 June 2001).]

[overstress]

Minogue
Every now & again someone comes out with the chestnut that pay is the big factor in airline costs. Total pay for BA's 60,000+ staff is about 8%, flight crew are 3500 strong. So you could assume that flight crew pay accounts for about 1.2% of total costs. A 30% increase in flight crew pay would therefore bring their pay to 1.3 x 1.2 = 1.56% of costs, a massive increase of 0.36% in BA's costs. Management cock-ups have recently accounted for losses of several orders of magnitude greater than this.

If this argument or mathematics is too complicated for you, you are in the wrong forum.

THEY CAN AFFORD MASSIVE PAY RISES FOR PILOTS. They will say anything to brainwash us out of them.

[cbavoidance]

Good luck to ANY pilot that gets a pay increase.
Do you know of any other profession where your job is put on the line every 6 months? (simulator check).
I endevour to maintain the high standards required. I HAVE YET TO BE COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY..........

[minogue]

Overstress

BA last full year proftit - c £130m

On your figures there are 3500 Fcrew. Average salary I would guess would be a minimum of £60,000. 30% rise would be £18,000 equivalent to well over £20k once you factor in NI/ pension etc. But let's use
£20k to keep it simple.

£20k per person over 3500 people is £70m
over half last years profit. Unaffordable I'm afraid without cuts elsewhere.

Hope the maths isnt to difficult for you!!

[yellow dog]

Minogue,
What a lot of people are failing to realise here is that over the next few years BA are going to lose a lot of well paid Captains.(Pay Point 20 and above). To compensate for this retirement F/O's will be promoted. Hypothetically let's say these would be Captain's enter on pay point 10, let's say the difference in basic between the retiree and new guy is £25K. Apparently BA are losing 200 pilot's a year due retirements so are actually saving £5m a year in salary costs. Can't afford it. I don't think so.

[Underdog]

Minogue,

Your assumption of our average wage is pretty wide of the mark. :rolleyes: Including allowances our pay may average 60K (I got just over 40K last year including allowances - before tax). However, what many people forget is that our allowances are there to cover expenses we occur whilst we are away from home at the companys behest. The money has already been spent on food (and incidentals - hic) before we get reimbursed by the company. Our pensionable salary - I suggest - averages at about 40K, far less than both you and the media would have everyone believe. Of course this may not make great headlines - and so the facts get buried under hype.

You say that cuts would have to be made elsewhere; fine - for a long time now most people have realised that BA is overstaffed. Swingeing staff cuts - however unpaletable for those involved - have been a real necessity for some time now. I'm sure Rod is sharpening his axe as we speak.

ATB,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

[snooky]

I agree, why should it be the underpaid pilots that subsidise the Waterworld hoards.

Another point: The govt. are supposedly in favour of the use of public transport. Why then do they continue to impose the passenger taxes on airline flights. Certainly domestically the airlines compete with the railways, and I'm sure they would'nt get away with such a tax on railway passengers. If the airlines kept the fares at present levels, it would mean that at last they could make more sensible profits, and the increases which pilots are due could be paid with a small fraction of what was taken in these taxes.

[beaver eager]

If you look at the basic money paid to the likes of GORYEZY and compare it with their seat prices and profitability (and keep this in context with B.A.s own profitability), I think it proves that the exesses within B.A. are not on the flight deck.



------------------
The humble line pilot, having covered its back so often, at last made the first step on the evolutionary ladder that was to eventually become... a tortoise!

[Pontius]

Well, for once, I'm feeling extremely militant. I'm actually looking forward to going on strike and sticking the bat as far as I can up our management's proverbrial.

There should be no negotiation. It's either what we want or try operating an airline with no pilots.

It may even kill two birds with one stone. We get our pay rise and get rid of the prat who's just about to take over as DFO (the sooner that happens the better).

Pontius


PS: This is the original name holder; not Pontius P

------------------
You Ain't Seen Me - Right !!

[radeng]

One thing amazes me about the aviation industry generally (not being employed in it) and that's, generally speaking, how p*ss poor the pay is for the work, training and responsibilities undertaken - at all levels, flying, maintenance and ground staff. I don't know about bean counters, though.

Once or twice I've considered trying to use my skills (radio engineering) in aviation, but I'm not cutting my pay by 60%! Consider that a new graduate in electronics can be getting £18k six months after graduation.....

[overstress]

Minogue

get back in yer box. Underdog has the truth. My P60 wasn't anywhere near the figure you quote.

BTW, £130m minus £70m = £60m, I just about managed that one. What was your point again?
Who do you work for? Gordon Brown?

[Charly]

Full Support from Germany!!

Good Luck
Charly

[Roobarb]

What the readers of these pages need to understand is the MASSIVE increase in productivity that we have delivered over the past 5 years for a rapidly diminishing and derisory award, whilst there is a continuous erosion of our conditions of service. My personal flying hours as an example have increased 18% since 1995 and many of us are approaching the magic 900.

BA management myth that somehow we are inefficient and lazy is simply not borne out by the facts. The recent BALPA comparative remuneration study shows with independent and sourced evidence that we provide just about the most productive and cost effective flight deck in the business. I can hear some of you now in the charter world going ‘Oh dear, poor Nigel having to work for a change’, but let me remind you that your work is strictly seasonal, whilst ours is month on month, higher and higher CAPs, shorter slips, and more establishment shortfalls.

All we want is a fair days pay for a fair days work, we have helped the company out in the past when they pleaded hardship, only for them to play hard nose when the Sun comes out again. They must think we were born yesterday. So this time no sob stories, no 3%, no corporate offer, no recession, no IT problems, no Foot and Mouth, this time it’s money.

MJ is reported as saying ”Don’t expect anything more than RPI”
Well if that’s the case, I have news for him – Don’t expect anything less than industrial action!

http://www.sausages.demon.co.uk/ian/classic/thumbs/roobarb.gif

[Underdog]

Roobarb,

Spot on. Whilst the charter companies get their pound of flesh during the summer months, BA certainly get their moneys worth from us and more besides - year round. And yes I have done both!

Whilst roster stability etc. is pretty good, the rewards are abysmal. Until BA recognises our true worth then the threat of industrial action cannot be ignored.

ATB,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

[jumbodriver]

Roobarb,

Your sumary of the situation is absolutely spot on.I too am hitting the 8-900 hr mark his year,and for less pay.I am fully prepared for Industrial action.I have quite simply had enough.I am not personally prepared to give any more ground on any issue.30% in my view is too modest.

jumbodriver

[bunk exceeder]

To those of you who would say that we are overpaid, well you remain free to donate as much of your salaries to charity as you wish. Now 12 years ago, I chose, yes chose BA from a range of pretty attractive world ranking airlines. OK, the pay was a little bit less, but the route structure and leisurely nature of many of the trips made up for it. Well, now the pay is a hell of a lot less, and the trips are all there and backs, and I am flying 900 hours a year. If I were at United or Delta, I would be making 70% more. At American or Northwest, it would be 50% more. At other carriers, I would have a command by now and be paid much more. What would be the point of going to EOG for a command on a 737 when it comes with lousy pay and an equally lousy contract? The situation is so laughable that this year, we must do something decisive. Chris Darke ignores our feelings at his peril.

[High Volt]

There seems to be a groundswell of opinion across the UK airlines that we are not getting our fair share. Plebs like us grind on whilst those further up the food chain whittle on about RPI and greedy pilots whilst they pocket obscene bonuses.

We are conservative with a small "c" but at what point has it gone too far. We create the wealth that they manipulate. It appears that there is an ever increasing number of us in the UK who are being pushed too close to the edge. Union membership is not just about being non confrontational whatever the cost - if that was the case I'd save 1% of my salary! It's time that we reminded some of these people that we're not here for our health!

[loaded1]

If there is a strike over the BA pay deal, then there will be the biggest and most brutal intimidation of the membership ever seen. The aim will be to smash BALPA as a negotiating body within the UK airline industry. Any readers of the "Friday Firelighter"this week ,(that august and esteemed company propaganda sheet), will have seen the early shots in the building PR campaign that harps on the usual theme that we are already overpaid and can only look forward to an ever rising round of "efficiency improvements" at our expense.

Be prepared: BA surely are getting their ducks in a row.

[Skyjack]

Interesting to read the support for Industrial action this time round. I sent a fairly "brisk" email to BALPA saying that they really need to pull their finger out this time.

For those of you not in BA yet I also brought up the point that self improvers joining the company are being forced onto the cadet entry pay rates starting on £23K/yr instead of the £32K they should have as DEP's. All this AND a £45K loan to pay back....


It's these sort of abuses that make the likes of myself (7yr SFO) militant to the extent that we WILL go out on strike this year if the company don't start recognising our contribution.

[3Greens]

Skyjack,
you´re absolutely spot on. I joined BA a couple of years ago on 23K (cadet pay), whereas i actually financed my own training at OATS ~ 45-50K. BALPA are actually trying to get the company to recognise this but i don´t think i´ll hold my breath.
BA really need to get their finger out this year and give us what we deserve.
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!


[This message has been edited by 3Greens (edited 08 June 2001).]

[Notso Fantastic]

<<BA really need to get their finger out this year and give us what we deserve.
Lets hope LCG starts his new job by trying to increase morale!!!>>.....he will! Beatings will continue until morale improves! The only thing we can do is ensure action is voted for, and get our heads down and take action, and ignore TV reports, adverse journalism and these nasty nosy 'opinion about everything in aviation' non pilot types, who are seemingly adamant that we should not be earning more than they are. Ignore everybody! I'm not sure the value of having so many non pilots here commenting on what they think we earn and what they think we should earn! All I know is I am fed up with everybody else earning more for the same job!

[exeng]

B.A.'s propaganda efforts are moving into a higher gear as indicated by 'loaded1'. This week's British Airways staff newspaper has a full page dedicated to an article reproduced from the Sunday Times.

The obvious intent is to give the impression of how fantastically well off Flight Crew are. I quote, < That now makes it possible that Delta's pilots may reject the 23% to 39% rise on offer when it comes to the vote next month. After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year. >

That would equate to Delta's top paid pilots (I presume) being offered about £214,000 P.A. for carrying passengers who pay the same for their tickets as ours do.

The article says that fares will have to rise by 10% to offset the wage hikes. Oh deary me no, how will the consumer cope; after all fares have consistently reduced for decades. Maybe the consumer will just have to pay a bit more, like they have to for virtually every other commodity. Another quote from the article says < And in real terms average fares have fallen by 40%, (since 1978) with people who have the flexibility as to travel dates and times getting the greatest benefits. >

The article also says, < All this makes the profits performance of B.A. even more remarkable than it's quadrupling of profits in 2000 at first seems. > No surprise here is there, if your wage bill for Flight Crew, Maintenance Engineers and a lot of other groups of staff is about half that of your competitors then one would expect a better financial performance.

Another quote, < the airlines Chief Executive, R.E., deployed his attractive, outgoing personality to get his ground staff and in-flight crews to abandon their grievances and petulance and once again concentrate on customer service. > So we have abandoned our grievances have we, petulant lot that we are. I don't think so.

Regards
Exeng

[MrUppity]

The fight will come. Look at the back page of the same BA News to see what Rod has in mind for the Regions!

[Hot Wings]

I completely agree with the last few posts. Well said everybody!

This weeks BA News caused my blood to boil. BA has declared war against us by reproducing Irwin Stelzer's recent Sunday Times article. Just a few points from the article:

1). "Lufthansa pilots, unhappy with an offer of a mere 18% wage increase"

FACT: Lufty pilots took a 20% pay cut to help out the airline during a difficult time.

FACT: BA pilots took a 5% pay cut for the same reason.

FACT: Neither pilot group has had these cuts restored during the profitable years since.

FACT: 18% over 4 years will still leave Lufty pilots earning 50% less than US pilots.


2). "After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year".

FACT: Even before the recent large pay settlements, pilots at US majors earned far more than those of us in Europe.

FACT: Nobody at BA earns anywhere near $300,000 a year. Infact, the highest paid most senior BA Captains, even Base Training Captains, earn the same or less than a UAL F/O with 5 years seniority ie. $170,000 or £125,000.

FACT: The average pay of an EOG 737 crew is far less than a 737 crew from Ryanair, Easy or Go.

FACT: BA has about 1000 pilots operating a fleet of 57 747-400s. UAL has 1800 pilots operating a fleet of 44 747-400s. You could say that, at BA, we work twice as hard for half the money!

FACT: Every month between 150 to 300 747-400 pilots at BA are in danger of exceeding the JAR 900 hours per year flying limit.


4). Various pro-Roderick Eddington comments, which I can't even be bothered to re-read in case I throw up.

FACT: Ask any Cathay pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.

FACT: Ask any Ansett pilot or employee what they think of Eddington.

FACT: Ask Rod what he thinks of pilots - "million dollar morons".

FACT: Eddington is due a £1,000,000 bonus if he returns BA to profitability within 2 years. This explains his low key approach so far at BA. Wait for next year!!!


We are now in a situation where BA is actively stirring up the "green-eyed monster" against its pilot force. Management only see our cost, not how much we save the company. What value has been put on the heroic actions of Capt. Bill Hagan and his crew (re: NBO)?

We must aggressively persue a massive pay claim and not be part of a company pay deal.
Balpa should be far more proactive. Its time to start putting out some pro-pilot propaganda.

Unfortunately, our true value will only be seen when we walk off the job and flights are cancelled. After 2 weeks, Flt Ops would implode as people go out of recency, etc. A month long strike would take 6 months to recover from. It would cost BA £100s of millions. A professional pilot is not a charity - show us the money!!!

[wonderbusdriver]

Have BALPA get in touch with VC immediatly so they know what to do and what NOT to do to.

Be prepared to have sh@t thrown in your face from places you wouldn´t even expect.
(On the other hand, we´ve all almost gotten used to that, haven´t we?)

Join your union and get others to join!
Get your personal networks up and running!
Get all those "artists" to get the big picture!
Get your email addresses and cell-phone #s to your union!
Give BALPA feedback!
Be prepared to give explanations to everyone including your mailman!
Get involved and expect to get clobbered!
Be prepared to act as one unity (there´s safety in numbers)!

Have patience and stamina once you get going.

Good luck!

[Underdog]

Hotwings,

I think everyone that posts on this forum is in agreement with your FACTS (your caps :) )

What we need is Balpa AND US to present a united front. Wonderbus has given us an inkling into how it is being done across the way at Luftie. Time will tell whether it has worked.

One things for sure, if we don't stand together on this then we will get totally screwed again by BA.

ATB,

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif Underdog

ps I know Balpa monitors this forum and our reps. do actually put a lot of effort in. But mark our words - we will not stand for another backdoor pay cut!!

[overstress]

This is good stuff! Keep the topic going at briefing etc, get as many as possible firmly 'on message' (it worked for the grinning jackanapes) and when BALPA hit 'em with the claim, we'll all stand together.

A 30% rise in my basic would put me on a par with many charter F/Os with same seniority. 50% would be more like it.

[Notso Fantastic]

Hot Wings,

Good one! I can hardly wait. But you will get all the 'non qualified, but can't wait to comment' prats on this forum chirping in. My own feeling is we can't even hope to win public opinion. I won't be explaining to the mailman- more like 'mind your own business!'. We must do this with our heads down and with gritted teeth- I remember last time we nearly did it- the newspaper/TV comment was merciless and completely biased against us.

[The Vicar]

Whatever you do do not reveal your tactics on an open forum like this and telegraph your intentions.
Ignore the usual "glorified bus driver" drivel and other personal slights. Do not engage in childish name calling and personal abuse.
Make sure that you do not fraternise or socialise with management as they use these occasions for intelligence purposes. This is especially true for your union representatives. There is good reason to believe that there were too many "convivial" social occasions between AFAP reps and management in the Australian dispute resulting in some indiscreet "loose tongues" revealing useful insights to management.
Cathay pilots seem to have realised this at last. Apparently it is customary to frequent the same venue as management on off duty social occasions....Keep away! ...Treat them like lepers... Go somewhere else.
Do not respond to "surveys" of any kind, especially company initiated ones, because they will be used to your disadvantage.
You will be wasting your time trying to get the Media on side.
And lastly be prepared to negotiate realistically.

[exeng]

Vicar,

Thank you for your very constructive advice. Forums such as these are an excellent means of sharing ideas and intentions however the tactics leading to the execution of industrial action will remain, hopefully, very private.

I agree entirely that we will be wasting our time trying to get the media on our side; it never has happened and it never will. There will be intimidation but I'm certain that most of my colleagues have the strength to resist it.


Regards
Exeng

[bunk exceeder]

The one thing that BALPA have to start doing is putting out some positive spin that is pro pilot. We may not win against the media, but in the US, ALPA has run ads about the responsibility and professionalism of pilots on TV, and newspaper ads about upcoming strikes warning customers and allowing them to chose another airline to avoid being inconvenienced. Time to start acting like a really professional union.

[Mike Mercury]

Go for it guys. The best of luck. I belong to BRAL, or more accurately, BA CitiExpress. We see our purchase as a means of introducing an effective 'B' scale to BA to eventually screw you main line guys down even further. Most of us are quite happy being regional for the lifestyle, although that has changed a lot over the last two years. We hope to follow your efforts and achieve some sort of decent rise ourselves, but I think its very important BALPA use an inclusive tactic, or we may be used to take more and more BAR work to lower overheads there, and be used as the fodder for more Sunday Times articles.
We are only now just becoming BALPA, we are expecting to be able to negotiate with management now, instead of being ruled by diktat (and our Ops people have to be experienced to be believed!!!!!)

I think it would be in ALL our interests to cooperate on this one. BA mainline is the benchmark (or was) of the UK Airline industry. If BA don't stay ahead, we all suffer. Get Chris Darke off his well paid ass, and get something done.

[Hot Wings]

bunk exceeder - if only Chris Darke would get off his a**e and initiate your excellent suggestions.

We can learn a great deal from our US colleagues, if we can put aside our usual British arrogance and superiority. What counts is the net figure on your pay statement and in this respect we are clearly inferior. Its time to do something about it!

[lekkerste]

I've only just seen the Stelzer article in the firelighter and came online to find everything I wanted to say already said by Notso, Loaded, Hotwings etc. It made me puke when I read it first time round in the Sunday Times and now it's in our own company paper. Sheer brilliance. What a great way to motivate those of us who needed it into going for a meaningful i.e. 30% plus, pay raise. What a bunch of plonkers they are. Roll on the ballot.

[wonderbusdriver]

"...do not reveal your tactics on an open forum like this and telegraph your intentions."

Absolutely correct!!

That´s why you have to get those personal networks of trustworthy people in gear.

[High Volt]

Union action in this country has been non existent since the miners were broken (unless you can remind me of anything i've missed!). Since then you were made to feel like a social leper if you actually decided to stand your ground. I'm not defending the actions of the miners, I'm merely pointing out that union's evolved for a reason and perhaps we are facing a scenario in our industry where we must rediscover their worth. When we ditched the coal industry there was an alternative non union source of energy - nuclear power.

However, here are we as pilots facing a boom in air travel with the potential for lots of lovely money to be made. With the last 15-20 years dominated by bean stealing accountancy practices re: training overheads coupled with a retirement bulge and a dwindling military who is carrying the big stick?

The real currency over the next decade will be experienced jet pilots. It is time to re-assert our position and if that means aeroplanes sitting on the ground then so be it. A few thousand millions of pounds of real estate sitting on the ground earning no interest let alone profit is a real double whammy.

PS: I nearly forgot to say how nausiating I find Stelzer. I note that he publishes his e-mail address and I have subsequently fired off a bolt of vitriol! It would be nice if everyone else followed suit.

[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 09 June 2001).]

[loaded1]

Yup, Stelzer is a right wing idealogue who makes Ghengis Khan look like a proverbial Sunday School teacher. He is also very selective in his use of facts. The creator of airline deregulation in the States is on record as saying that had he forseen the outcome, (the Lorenzo/Icahan years), he would not have reccomended it. Not a lot of people know that, so good old Irwin S just quotes the bits he likes to give his jaundiced views some bogus credibility.

I agree wholeheartedly with the email tactic: give the little chap something to think about. Regular readers of the Sunday Times business pages will know that he fires off the "lazy pilots are greedy and overpaid" broadside on a fairly regular basis. The irrational and personal tone he uses makes me think that he may have either not been selected or failed in flight training somewhere along the line.

Can't wait to see what he comes up with if BALPA make their move later this year.

[Up in arms]

Anyone got an URL for this Stelzer article, please?

[Olmy]

I just thought I'd throw my few pennies into the fray here. Someone mentioned earlier that they'd heard about people turning down job offers with BA. I've been with Uncle Rodney's Airline for about 6 years now. I am one of these lucky people with more than one passport, and so can confirm that I am seriously looking elsewhere for a company to fly for. Getting a job stateside is (based on my info from that side) possibly not too difficult for me, and may possibly extend to those with European licenses soon as well (although that's just rumour -- I can see it if the current and future forecast shortage continues).

Basically, the point is that unless BA get their act in gear, I'm outta here!. (and I don't think I'm alone in this one!)

[High Volt]

[email protected]

For those who wish to write!

[This message has been edited by High Volt (edited 10 June 2001).]

[Pandora]

So BA are trying to rouse the green-eyed monster in its ranks. Not so long ago I did a quick poll in my work environment and I found out the following:

The dispatcher earns more than me.
The engineer earns more than me.
The tug driver earns more than me.
The refueller earns more than me.
The CSD earns more than me.
Half of the cabin crew earn more than me.

I know I am new(-ish) but I reckon that if BA were to publish a list of salaries across the range of workers there would always be people earning more than pilots no matter how senior a captain you are. Most of the top end earners never even see an aircraft except to travel club to their exotic team building exercise destination. (BA were keen to show various managers recently in the News having fun on a camel in Dubai. Yes, really. Now that's what I call work.)

Now I love my job. But I believe we should be paid for what we do. I am writing this at the moment from standby, BA can call me at the drop of a hat. If I am not called I will spend the rest of the day filling in my fleet technical questionnaire and revising for my upcoming SEP quiz and sim check. If I am called any plans I may have made months ago will have to be dropped while I go to work. In the last year I have missed Christmas with my family, a relative and a friend's wedding, 2 christenings and a holiday with old friends. I still love my job, but the friends I left university with now earn double my salary, work Mon-Fri and get bank holidays off. From the media they have the idea that we are all drunk layabouts with overinflated egos who earn too much. I am happy enough at the moment to be paid what I get to fly, but I want to be able to aspire to a life of comfort a salary which compensates for the disruption to home life and the level of skill and knowledge we have to maintain and demonstrate on a regular and frequent basis.

BA needs to realise that all the managers in Waterside won't save them if the front line staff decide enough is enough.

Rant over.

[Magnus Picus]

Someone asked for this item of journalism earlier in the thread.

May 27 2001 BUSINESS NEWS The Sunday Times
An American opinion by Irwin Stelzer.

Airlines chase profits on a wing and a prayer



"COME fly with me," Frank Sinatra crooned invitingly on one of his hit records. An attractive offer in the days before anyone worried about deep-vein thrombosis or excessive doses of radiation on over-the-pole flights. And flying with Frank meant a private plane, with no airport hassles and certainly no queues at immigration.

But when an airline issues a similar invitation to come fly this summer, it will be a different story for business travellers and holidaying families. Delays, delays and more delays are in store for most passengers. Last year, more than a quarter of all flights were delayed in America, meaning more than 160m passengers spent some unplanned time in airport lounges or, worse still, on the hard benches of airline terminals. All in all, the 425,000 flights that were delayed in 2000 topped the 1999 record by 20%.

Things are no better in Europe. Lufthansa pilots, unhappy with an offer of a mere 18% wage increase, have already inflicted two strikes on the airline, and last week a business meeting I attended in Italy was disrupted by a quickie strike at Alitalia. As in America, Europe's pilots are fractious and the infrastructure - airports and the air-traffic-control system - is obsolete and overloaded. Add to that a refusal by the European Union's regulatory officials to allow airlines to trade slots and gates so that those scarce facilities can be used most efficiently, and you have a prescription for a summer of progressively lower levels of service.

Europe's pilots are not the only unhappy employees. Pilots in America are also restless. They have noticed that their fellow unionists were able to bring United Airlines to its knees last summer. By working to rule, the pilots so disrupted services that passengers fled to other lines, on routes where alternatives were available, or deluged their congressmen with complaints.

United caved in, and granted increases of up to 45%. That now makes it possible that Delta's pilots may reject the 23% to 39% rise on offer when it comes to a vote next month. After all, one cannot expect a pilot to get along on $300,000 a year.

Airline mechanics are also stepping up their demands. Northwest has already given its mechanics a 24% rise, and may have to offer more to keep its planes serviced and flying this summer. United faces similarly demanding mechanics who may cause a repeat of last summer's woes.

Customers are not alone in their suffering. Higher labour costs, high fuel costs and declining demand for business travel due to the economic slowdown have combined to push America's leading carriers into the red once again. The Economist reports that the seven largest American airlines lost $700m in the first quarter of this year, with only low-cost Southwest and high-service Continental staying in the black.

Sam Buttrick, an airline analyst at UBS Warburg, says fares will have to rise by 10% to offset the wage hikes. "That is inconsistent with the current demand environment," he says.

All this makes the profits performance of British Airways even more remarkable than its quadrupling of profits in 2000 at first seems. The carrier was able to make progress against the industry-wide headwinds for two reasons. First, the airline's chief executive, Rod Eddington, deployed his attractive, outgoing personality to get his ground staff and in-flight crews to abandon their grievances and petulance, and once again concentrate on customer service.

Second, Eddington vigorously implemented a plan initiated by Bob Ayling, his predecessor, to attract more high-fare passengers. BA installed more comfortable seats in business class, allowing passengers to stretch out fully on long flights. International road warriors, as peripatetic executives proudly call themselves, appreciate every amenity that makes life a bit easier.

But even BA cannot fight the market forever. Of particular concern to BA management is that Americans have stopped coming to Britain. Investment bankers and lawyers have no deals to do, and holidaymakers have been led by television images to believe that the portion of the nation's livestock that has not been incinerated will prove lethal if eaten - our concerned friends regularly call us when we are in London to ask whether we have anything to eat.

Things are not likely to get better soon. Although there are bargains to be had by those who book at the last minute, fares are due to rise. Even as service falls.

A US court has surprisingly cleared the way for the big carriers to drive smaller rivals from the field by engaging in predatory price cutting and by adding huge amounts of capacity on any route on which a new entrant rears its head. When the unfortunate newcomer is seen off, fares are often trebled and service reduced. The Bush administration has declined to permit its antitrust enforcers to appeal against this decision.

Some of this bad news is actually not so bad after all. The congestion in the skies and on the runways of America is due to the enormous success of deregulation, which has enabled carriers to juggle fares so as to make air travel more affordable for more people.

The number of people flying to business meetings and to visit grandma has grown from 250m at the time of deregulation in 1978 to 670m last year. And in real terms average fares have fallen by 40%, with people who have flexibility as to travel dates and times getting the greatest benefits. But service has deteriorated recently, and profits are hard to come by.

The six leading carriers argue that the situation would be improved if only they were permitted to merge, perhaps halving the number of big airlines competing for business. Why a reduction in rivalry for customers' favour would lead to an improvement in service remains obscure, at least to this economist. What is needed is more, not less competition.

One way to increase consumer choice and the pressure on incumbent carriers to shape up would be to allow foreign airlines to enter the US market as owners or operators.

That, say America's carriers and their supporters in Congress, is just not on. As always, consumers will bear the cost of this protectionism.


------------------
Magnus

[MrUppity]

Well put Pandora. The work we do is not appreciated, and the only way that it can be shown to be appreciated is by a considerable pay rise.
BA are brilliant at throwing away money, eg the tails fiasco. Only this week they have finally closed their final Mainline base away from LHR, in Scotland. £1m pa extra night stopping costs. £2m coversion costs. £1m relocation costs. That's £1000 each to start with.
They'll try and use the press against us. Let's fight back and use the press against them. The shareholders need to know that it's not pilots pay that causes such low returns, it's appalling management.
They'll soon appreciate us when we're out.

[Hot Wings]

Good rant Pandora! Well said.

Only this week BA are chartering 2 757s to fly our sales "managers" to Jersey for a jolly. I only wish that Channel 4 Dispatches would be there to film what the suits from Waterorld get up to when they are allowed out.

Of course, one can only imagine how happy the people of Jersey will be to see that the only time BA fly from LHR to Jersey is to take its salesmen on a school outing.

Sadly, this is yet another example of BA wasting money. I wonder if they'll be importing camels to liven up the proceedings?

[beaver eager]

Can anyone explain why they couldn't have had the sales conference in one of those plush hotels on the Bath Road opposite Waterworld?

[porpoise]

how many times have you arrived at heathrow and a bus has been dropping off the next crew. you ask them if they can take you back to compass or the cat lounge, where they are going anyway. NO, it's against the rules, another bus will come to pick you up. Our bus drivers do 5 pick ups a day. It takes 5 minutes but according to their rules they are not allowed to be contacted for half an hour after dropping off. How many managers do you see milling around compass? This is the most inefficient company I have ever seen. We are the most efficient pilots in the industry. Enough talking, time for action.

[snooky]

I agree about the various ways that BA choose to waste money.
The 30% claim is only what is happening the world over (see Fragrant Harbour). If we don't get at least that we'll be even further behind.

[Joey Gray]

""Joke of the Day""

[MrUppity]

Lets hope that the Balpa meetings to discuss this are well attended to show BA that we are serious about this.
If they think that we're not that interested, BA will try and get away with another pathetic offer. Also, we must show Balpa that we are prepared to back them in going for a large rise.

[Tool Time]

You could double pilots' salaries, and in the big picture of airline operating costs, it is still minimal.
The fact that the salary has appeared to be high has always rankled with certain managerial misfits, who have found their way into positions of executive power.
Those individuals have been rewarded with packages for trimming airline costs, which seems paradoxical, seeing they were paid to manage in the first place.
It is a pity that pilots are such a fragmented bunch, industrially speaking, imagining that they can do very well on their own. The fact is, that if they were united in the broader sense, they would do very much better.

[exeng]

Mr Uppity,

When you say 'Lets hope that the Balpa meetings to discuss this are well attended to show BA that we are serious about this.' I quite agree mate. Over the last few decades at BA it would seem that the statement is "apathy rules, O.K.?"

Time for apathy is over. We only need to look around us to see what the Flight Crew in other companies are acheiving with
T & C's.

There will only be a small 'window' to achieve just rewards. Let it slip and it will be a long time coming around again.

EVERYBODY OUT! (Enjoy the summer, it only lasts two weeks. About as long as BA will in fact!)


Regards
Exeng

[loaded1]

A little bird told me that RE has been to see The Daily M@il. Now, this may well be in the spirit of friendly corporate get- togethers, however those of us who have seen a previous ballot in BA will remember the stance that The Daily Thunderer took, and one journalist's role in particular. His pieces about BA pilots were the most disgraceful example of so-called journalism I have ever seen. (OK, Channel 4 is on par).

My suspicion would be that this topic was aired over lunch, and the usual offers of unanimous and vitriolic support given.

Back at The Blue Lagoon, our crew report centre, our new director of Flight Crew is quoted as saying that within 5 years "the CSD will be in overall charge of the aeroplane", and to have defended the remark when challenged. I freely admit that this is hearsay from a company bulletin board elsewhere, however recent events make the five year delay look somewhat optimistic.

Meanwhile, the package of threats and intimidation that was deployed during the last ballot has been dusted off and a series of refinements added that make the middle level ground-based managers in flight operations,(many of whom, I am happy to be on record as saying, work long hard hours in a cramped and over-crowded office for little or no recognition or thanks from the wider airline, who hide from the gritty reality of the daily operation at the Waterworld delusion palace), look fearful of the outcome for the airline as a whole if a dispute occurs.

Our new D of FC is reputed to be keen for the struggle to come, and confident that he can achieve new lows in remuneration against productive hours.


What's that Chinese proverb?

May you live in interesting times?

[Tool Time]

CSD in overall command in five years?
No problem.
When Master warning goes off - call CSD.
When it arrives in cockpit, pilots vacate seats.
Problem solved.

[LargeJet]

I see both CSD and manager feature highly on the list!!!

http://www.governmentguide.com/issues/dangerjobs.adp

[MrUppity]

Reading the latest edition of Log, I am pleased to see that BALPA do finally seem to be getting the message that we do want and are due a very large rise. Even Chris Darke seems to be getting the message.
Again, I can only stress how important it is that we reinforce the message at the forthcoming meetings.
If we stand together, the money is ours.