Why do Heathrow Director expect us to announce aircraft type on first call?

[CirrusF]

Can't they just look at the FPL, like every other controller does?

Or are they too busy to look it up?

And are they really busier than us?

And if it makes their job easier, why don't controllers at all busy airports expect the same help?

[Scott Diamond]

I believe many controllers do that in order to confirm what they have on their strip is correct and to avoid incorrect wake seperations.

[Gonzo]

CirrusF,

You'd be surprised at how many times the aircraft type on the flight plan is incorrect!

I'm sure you're aware we ask for the same prior to departure with Heathrow Delivery. How do other airports manage?....I don't know.

[loubylou]

Every airfield that I have worked at requires pilots to report aircraft type on first contact with radar and when obtaining departure clearance, it usually says to do that on the ATIS

louby

[CirrusF]

Every airfield that I have worked at requires pilots to report aircraft type on first contact with radar and when obtaining departure clearance, it usually says to do that on the ATIS


Who else asks for it? Heathrow is the only place I've been to that expects the info on first call - most other airports that I go to know before I arrive what aircraft I am in as it is written on the FPL.

I can imagine that the info might occasionally have been wrong when operators used RPLs - but even so was it ever so unreliable that this caused major problems?

[Roffa]

Primarily for wake vortex reasons, for conditional crossing clearances (after the landing <insert a/c type here> cross runway 27L) and so that the rescue and fire services know what they're heading for in the event of an incident (the a/c type is passed to them as well should the crash alarm need to be pushed).

Maybe other airports are just happy to take their chances that the data they have is correct, experience on a daily basis shows it isn't always so. Here's hoping they don't stuff you up the arse of something on the approach thinking it's smaller than it actually is... how's your unusual attitude recovery skills?

For a couple of seconds worth of r/t the cost in time is worth paying.

[Glamdring]

We do it at the Ice Station.

If you're a Jetstream 41 but your strip says that you're a Saab 2000 and we don't double check and stick you 4 miles behind a 737 and then you have an incident, it's our necks that are on the chopping block!

[10W]

We could always take the requirement out and then fine every captain and flight deck crew whose flight plan is wrong. Might help pay for our pensions !!

Seriously though, it's there to remove an occasional risk which could result in a nasty incident or accident, as explained by those above. If you don't have the capacity to report your type due to cockpit workload issues, then maybe aviation is not for you ? :}

[a346driver]

LHR has had a fair number of go arounds because ATC didn't appreciate the extra speed that Ground speed mini can add, particularily to a heavy 340-600 when you revert to managed speed on a windy day. This call has helped them in adjusting the spacing so I hear.

[Scuzi]

The procedure is in place to save your ass from ending up upside down in the middle of Hounslow old chap. If it pisses you off that much, maybe you should try to avoid flying into Heathrow until you're able to deal with the massive increase in workload that reporting your aircraft type entails.

Jesus wept.:ugh:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Well said, Scuzi. The originator is obviously a total cretin who deserves little response...

[mr.777]

Who else asks for it? Heathrow is the only place I've been to that expects the info on first call

You obviously don't fly into Gatwick then...or Stansted, Luton and London City for that matter.

In addition to wake vortex, we check the a/c type so that there is no confusion when you are handed off to tower. If there is any type of emergency, they will be able to tell the fire service the a/c type. They may be issuing a conditional line up clearance against your a/c...rather beneficial to know then what a/c you are flying wouldnt you say? Stand allocation? I could go on....

[5milesbaby]

And a polite reminder that its HEATHROW DIRECTOR who should be told on first contact and not LONDON! There is no point telling me what weather information you have either, I have no idea if that is correct or not.

It is quite amazing how many plans are filed with incorrect types. It doesn't help that the Paris computer doesn't currently have all the types and variations stored in it so London have been checking many of them. It makes a difference to us as an A340-600 climbs far better than an A340-300 so we can plan for that.

Bring on full Mode S and all the other systems that means we will no longer need to do all this............

[Gonzo]

Jeez, calm down guys, he only asked a question. No need to go off on one calling him a cretin or claiming that 'Jesus wept'!

I don't have a 772 type rating, but I'm sure many of my questions to the last 772 crew I met might have seemed pretty simple to them.:ok:

[mr.777]

I don't think it was what was said Gonz, rather the tone in which it was said. As we all know though, that can easily be misinterpreted on forums like these :ok:

[gdnhalley]

Is the confusion not because Heathrow Director is the first Heathrow frequency where at most airports you speak to radar or approach initially and the director is the frequency you call with callsign only.
eg Manchester Radar 118.575, Manchester Director 121.350.
For some reason both of the equivalent frequencies at heathrow are called director.
Confused me the first time anyway.

[ItsAjob]

Another thing that eats up radio time is `When established on localiser 27 left decend with the glidepath`

Why not just 'cleared ILS 27 left'?

[Weirdo Earthtorch]

Here's hoping they don't stuff you up the arse of something on the approach thinking it's smaller than it actually is... how's your unusual attitude recovery skills?The procedure is in place to save your ass from ending up upside down in the middle of Hounslow old chap. If it pisses you off that much, maybe you should try to avoid flying into Heathrow until you're able to deal with the massive increase in workload that reporting your aircraft type entails.
:D

Another thing that eats up radio time is `When established on localiser 27 left decend with the glidepath`

Why not just 'cleared ILS 27 left'? Here we go again.....:}

[ImnotanERIC]

And a polite reminder that its HEATHROW DIRECTOR who should be told on first contact and not LONDON! There is no point telling me what weather information you have either, I have no idea if that is correct or not.

plus i couldn't give a sh*t whether it is correct or not

[anotherthing]

Having flown single pilot/single Nav aircraft, with no nice shiny glass cockpit or modern landing aids in crappy weather to moving runways, I'd say that in a multi crew modern airliner environment that the answer to your question

And are they really busier than us?
is most likely a resounding 'yes' and that applies to the TMA controllers as well.

[No Further Requirements]

With regards to the Paris computer not having all the aircraft types, surely it's the airline's operations people that sends out the initial flightplan to all the enroute adressees, and that should be the correct information. And if the company changes the operating equipment, it is up to them to send the appropriate change message.

Is this another case of catering for the lowest common denominator and not giving a swift kick up the ar$e to those who don't do the right thing?

In my brief 12 years in ATC, I can count on one hand the number of times that the operating equipment have changed and we have not been notified before the aircraft moves. Even then, the crew have a copy of the submitted flightplan and have always cross-checked and alerted us if there has been a change.

As for descending on the glidepath, don't get me started on that lowest common denominator, just-in-case crap. :ok:

Cheers,

NFR.

[tocamak]

Most airports seem to require type as standard part of initial call for reasons previously stated so why does AMS specifically say at end of ATIS "Call approach with callsign only" (still doesn't stop some giving the full nine yards though!)

[ItsAjob]

Me thinks the main reason for type confirmation is to confirm the airport landing charges.

And bring on the American callsign `123 heavy` to resolve any of the seperation problems.

Simples

[bigjames]

has anyone noticed that sq uses '123 super' for its 380s in certain airports? is that a show off thing or do we need to know cause that whale really produces more wake than a normal 'heavy?'

[411A]

has anyone noticed that sq uses '123 super' for its 380s in certain airports? is that a show off thing or do we need to know cause that whale really produces more wake than a normal 'heavy?'

Quite likely it refers to the achieved seniority and salary...:}

[5milesbaby]

NFR:
With regards to the Paris computer not having all the aircraft types, surely it's the airline's operations people that sends out the initial flightplan to all the enroute adressees, and that should be the correct information.
When London receives the flight message from the Paris computer to activate the flight in our airspace, the message contains aircraft type. Due to Paris computer not having all the types in that London computer has throws up match discrepancies so we have to confirm the type as we do not have the filed flight plan on sector. The popular ones are A340-600 (Paris tends to send this as a A340-200) and B777-300ER, we differentiate between the long range versions and the normal ones, Paris doesn't. Its an annoyance using up yet more valuable RTF.

[Carnage Matey!]

has anyone noticed that sq uses '123 super' for its 380s in certain airports? is that a show off thing or do we need to know cause that whale really produces more wake than a normal 'heavy?'

I've seen Emirates do that into SYD as well. Personally I think it's a good thing as it reminds the rest of us heavy drivers that we actually need to think about wake vortex separation today as we're not the heaviest thing in the sky any more.

[Married a Canadian]

has anyone noticed that sq uses '123 super' for its 380s in certain airports

Emirates do that into YYZ also. Outwith the wake category it is also a heads up for us as we have to inform the tower of its arrival. They need to do a runway inspection after it lands.

[Codger]

The reason that they ask for type is quite simple really. It's just their polite way of making sure that we know what type it is in fact that we are driving on to their precious tarmac on that particular day. Avoids unpleasantness on the ground... and you really wouldn't wish to disturb the crash crews, would you.

[sunnySA]

You'd be surprised at how many times the aircraft type on the flight plan is incorrect!



And what is done about it? If it is incorrect then desn't that mean it was incorrect when the aircraft departed, doesn't it mean that there might have been a BOS involving the aircraft before it got to Heathrow Director frequency, doesn't it mean that incorrect charges may be levied. A local workaround when there is perhaps a systemic problem.

What reporting occurs? I guess nothing, world's best practice, don't think so.

[divingduck]

I thought that the A388 had to make all calls with "Super" to indicate wake turb category.
Could be wrong though...

[Surferboy]

Most airports seem to require type as standard part of initial call for reasons previously stated so why does AMS specifically say at end of ATIS "Call approach with callsign only" (still doesn't stop some giving the full nine yards though!)


Frequency can be far too busy during peak-times to wait untill xxx123 has told you all about his acft type/altitude/cleared altitude/speed/his new car/his mother-in-law's birthday etcetc..:}

[HighFlyingSpanner]

Well said, Scuzi. The originator is obviously a total cretin who deserves little response...


Thisresponse is typical of the kind of tea-slurper who is not responsible for flying hundreds of tons of metal through the air.

[ayrprox]

Thisresponse is typical of the kind of tea-slurper who is not responsible for flying hundreds of tons of metal through the air.

How dare you!, you take that back!!!!!

he actually prefers coffee :E
ps only jokin btw

[Avman]

Well said, Scuzi. The originator is obviously a total cretin who deserves little response...

How rude, and to a fellow professional at that. I'm shocked HD!

[Tacklebury]

Married a Canadian.

Why do they need to do a runway inspection ?

T:confused:

[anotherthing]

To see if any stowaways have dropped out of the undercarriage bay on landing...

Engines are tested by having frozen chickens fired at them at high speed, but are not tested agains ingesting frozen illegal immigrants. You can't be too careful

[Married a Canadian]

Why do they need to do a runway inspection ?

One of the first times the A380 came into YYZ they applied full reverse thrust on landing and consequently a fair amount of debris was scattered over the runway from the grass alongside. This included dead animals and supposedly lunchboxes!!?? ...(awaits obvious responses).

They check the runway now after both departure and arrival.

[Mister Geezer]

Come on guys... it makes sense really.

Heathrow Director has little room for error. ATC in Europe might be quick to spot an incorrect type when taxying out when compared to the FPL. However at some of the more 'colourful' airfields in the less developed world, many ATCOs won't care if the FPL says B752 and a B763 is what he/she is seeing of the tower.

In some parts of the world, ATCOs have a very poor knowledge of different aircraft types and associated aircraft performance when compared to Europe and especially the UK.

Why should the Heathrow Director trust the ATCO on 'Bongo Bongo' tower to ensure that the FPL has been correctly filed with the correct aircraft type prior to departure?

[His dudeness]

As reasonable as it sounds, one has to wonder why this very seldom required outside the UK and apparently everywhere within th UK...is this a legal problem, e.g. your necks on the block, but, say, a germans atcos neck NOT on any sort of block if operator did not file correctly?


Other q: I do fly under reg, my current airplane is a Cessna Citation Sovereign or C680. What would you consider the best/most correct way to tell you the type?
A) Just 'citation' - they could be Light or Medium
b) Citation Sovereign
or
c) C680

?

For the time being I say C680 - the icao type identifier....

[NudgingSteel]

It happens more than many people seem to think. Often it's just a minor change, such as an E145 replaced by an E135. Sometimes seemingly minor (ATR42 to ATR72) until you realise that turns a Light to a Small, or vice versa. Apart from the vortex issues, there might be a problem with stand clearance if the airport are expecting a smaller type on a tight stand (tip clearance etc).

[3legs]

His dudeness,

I also fly a C680 or Citation Sovereign :)

When we first got it i annonced to Manchester Radar i was a Citation Sovereign. Reply was confirm you are a C680!!

How you fond your machine?

Happy Landings 3legs
:ok:

[M609]

a germans atcos neck NOT on any sort of block if operator did not file correctly?

Cannot speak for Germany, but in Norway any consequence of wrong a/c type in the FPL (i.e wrong WT spacing) would rest squarely on the muppet that filed it incorrectly, in other words the airline.

If you should apply the HD logic, en route controllers must ask for confirmation on filed speed and flight level, as well as route all the time as well.

[No Further Requirements]

M609 - couldn't agree more. Why do some ANSPs cater for errors instead of trying to prevent them before they happen?

Cheers,

NFR.

[Roffa]

Better a couple of seconds r/t than an otherwise easily avoidable smoking hole a few miles from the end of the runway.

When pretty much every minute of every hour from 6am to 10pm every single aircraft is going down the approach at the minimum allowed spacing from the one ahead, wake vortex category is safety critical information. Filed cruise speed or level isn't quite the same.

Why take the risk?

[Avoiding_Action]

M609 - couldn't agree more. Why do some ANSPs cater for errors instead of trying to prevent them before they happen?

Cheers,

NFR.

Assuming it is correct doesn't seem very safe to me. It is very common for an aircraft to request a different cruising level to the one filed. And especially common these days for an aircraft to fly at a different speed to that filed to save on fuel.

[Not Long Now]

I think you'd have to be quite brave to base seperation on a filed TAS or requested level rather than actually setting a speed etc., so why any difference with type and hence wake category?

[danieloakworth]

Probably to wake up the long haul guys.

[10W]

I think you'd have to be quite brave to base seperation on a filed TAS or requested level rather than actually setting a speed etc., so why any difference with type and hence wake category?

Yes, you would be brave. The difference with the wake category is that if you set it up on the assumption that the filed aircraft type is correct, then you'll possibly end up putting someone closer than is safe to do so.

For example, the RPL/FPL shows an Embraer 190 but the flight is actually operated by an Embraer 135 with no CHG message received. Seen similar circumstances enough times to know that there is a chance of it happening. The call of aircraft type as requested is a double check in a safety critical phase of flight. I'd rather 'waste' RT time with that than 'waste' my time filling in reports or worse.

[Del Prado]

When pretty much every minute of every hour from 6am to 10pm every single aircraft is going down the approach at the minimum allowed spacing from the one ahead, wake vortex category is safety critical information.


Is this perhaps the reason it's not done in the rest of europe? Do Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt consistently apply minimum vortex spacing as Heathrow does?

[No Further Requirements]

Avoiding Action: I meant why don't ANSPs kick the operators' @rses if they don't put the change message in instead of double checking all the time. And how about doing something about inter-unit messaging going wrong rather than doing a patch job down the line.

I would never base separation on the filed level/speed. That's just asking for trouble. Aircraft types, however, I certainly would.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Roffa]

NFR, I assume then (for example) that you don't listen to readbacks either on the assumption they'll never be incorrect?

[Avoiding_Action]

NFR Because mistakes happen. A couple of seconds of RT time is surely better than a crash due to incorrect wake vortex seperation being applied.

[No Further Requirements]

Geez guys. Not listening to readbacks - hardly the same as an operator or ANSP not passing through a change message. I fail to see how you can compare the two.

All I am saying is that is LHR have seen too many errors happen in aircraft type being incorrect, what measures are being taken to avoid the necessity of asking each time? Why do [I]most[I] operators/ANSPs around the world get the correct information passed down the line from departure to arrival?

Cheers,

NFR.

[tc_atco]

A pilot telling us their a/c type during their first contact wastes hardly any time whatsoever. What does waste RT time is pilots not listening to the ATIS correctly subsequently omitting their a/c type on first contact with Heathrow and then we have to go back to them to ask them to report their a/c type.

This isn't something that bothers me particularly, what however annoys me enormously is a/c checking in with their callsign only or speed only with intermediate director on 119.725 and 134.975. Callsign only is for final director on 120.4! Isn't how to check in something that pilots get taught at an early stage, it just seems incredibly unprofessional!

Getting back to the original point though, its safety critical that we get the a/c type correct. Similarly why we get a/c to report their cleared level; we can't trust the fact that because your Mode S SFL is accurate that that's the level you'll stop at, we need you to tell us too. It's about limiting risk, and when I was training I was told 'if it can go wrong it will go wrong.' It takes no time at all to include your type on first contact, just remember!

[Giles Wembley-Hogg]

tc_atco

In defence of the guys who get it wrong, I think that there are some easily solved (free, by NATS) human factors issues here.

Firstly the ATIS says to give the information on "first contact with Heathrow" (no mention of "Director") whereas some of your TMA colleagues transfer aircraft to "Director" (no mention of "Heathrow").

Secondly, some approach charts have "London" in large font and "Heathrow" in a smaller style. Since AC and TC controllers are forever telling people to contact "London" rather than "London Control", I think it is very likely that some people check in with TC SE INS/BIG/LAM etc and give the information to them thinking (as they can clearly see from their map display that they are almost on top of the aerodrome) that they are talking to "London Approach" or somesuch. Of all the occasions that I have heard aircraft erroneously give their details to a TMA controller, I've only once heard that controller explain that they actually need to give all the information again when QSY'd.

On a related note to my first point, it may be that irregular vistors don't realise the connecton between reporting aircraft type and being provided with the correct vortex spacing. I would not be surprised if some people were expecting to report their aircraft type to the TWR controller for route charging reasons, for example. Speculation on my part, but I don't know why I need to tell some en-route controllers my registration (although I can have a pretty good guess).

So to fix some of the problem: someone needs to get their finger out and fix the ATIS to say "Heathrow Director", a gentle reminder could be sent to the TMA controllers that they need to tell crews who check in wrongly who the correct recipient should be and AC need to transfer aircraft to "London Control".

My 2 cents.

Incidentally, the only other place that I can think of that requires aircraft to check in Heathrow-style is Copenhagen. This is also one of the only other places we are regularly, intentionally vectored accurately to the minimum vortex spacing.

G W-H

[tc_atco]

As I said, I'm not too bothered by crews omitting their type. Your comments regarding why pilots may forget to include this are fair enough.

What does annoy me is pilots checking in with their callsign only on first contact. You'd expect cleared level and next waypoint / heading as a minimum. There is no human factor excuse here; it's plain laziness or cluelessness...

[Trim Stab]

Tc-atco:

Thanks for the helpful replies ( and one or two others). But Dudeness's question is not answered. I fly a C525 -what is most helpful information as regarding aircraft type:
1. C525 - do ATCOs know every ICAO code?
2. Citation Jet (could be anything from 510 to 750)

Also, if it is for wake spacing, why not just ask for a/c wake category? At least pilots would then know why the question is being asked.


Perhaps HEATHROW DIRECTOR should consider before making his snide remarks about the OPs perfectly reasonable question that he may be busy, but is at least working in a familiar ATC environment. I'm flying into LHR for only the second time next week ( and first time single pilot) and so I'm hoping he is not on duty.

[twentypoint4]

Thanks for the helpful replies ( and one or two others). But Dudeness's question is not answered. I fly a C525 -what is most helpful information as regarding aircraft type:
1. C525 - do ATCOs know every ICAO code?
2. Citation Jet (could be anything from 510 to 750)

Also, if it is for wake spacing, why not just ask for a/c wake category? At least pilots would then know why the question is being asked.

It is the ICAO code of the flight planned aircraft which we have infront of us on our strips, so please use that.

I'm afraid asking the pilot for their wake category as apposed to their definitive ICAO aircraft-type-code is a plain stupid idea. The categories' names and limits differ depending where in the world you're flying so whats the point of making it even more confusing? How about you simply answer the question of what type you are and let us separate complying to the UK minima using the UK wake categories.

Enjoy your flight into Heathrow! I'd be very intrigued to see into the flight deck during a single pilot approach into Heathrow.

[DaveReidUK]

2. Citation Jet (could be anything from 510 to 750)

A Citation Jet isn't the same as a CitationJet. :O

[Gonzo]

Trim Stab,

Please mention the fact you are unfamiliar to Director if you think you may struggle to find you way around the taxiways, they will pass on the message to us and we can rustle up a follow me vehicle for you.:ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

But each to their own.....

glf

[Brian 48nav]

Please check your PMs.

[Trim Stab]

Gonzo,

Thanks - I was going to post separately about ground taxing, but since you bring up the subject here, are there standard (or at least probable) routes that I might get for the taxi from the active runway to Royal Lodge?

[Gonzo]

From the southern runway it's pretty easy.

From 27R you can expect to taxy westbound, most probably on Bravo, then down Echo or Foxtrot, then east on Alpha or Bravo to N5W to cross.

From 09L, expect to taxy eastbound on Alpha, then south on Alpha, to either N1, or continuing west on Alpha to N3 or N4E to cross, the latter most likely.

[Talkdownman]

to N5W to cross
...when cleared...

to N3 or N4E to cross
...when cleared...

[Basil]

Can't speak for LHR but, wenIwos in RAF ATC doing PAR talkdown, it was nice to know if I was getting a Lightning or an Anson ;)

[Brian 48nav]

How did your visit to LHR work out?

If the service you received was, as expected, good, how about telling everyone!