ryanair hires 30 junior pilots!!!!!

[handoek]

Ryanair just hired 30 pilot with a total time of 200 hours from the netherlands NLS school i have 2300 hours i heard nothing..... WHATEVER RYANAIR

[springbok449]

Hi,
I am just wondering if you have an EU license as in your profile it states that your location is the USA, because if you have an FAA license it may be a reason why you have not been contacted. Not having a gop just a thought!
Regards, Bokkie449.

[eagerbeaver]

Anyone care to offer a reason why Ryanair would employ 30 dutch students when there are many english/irish pilots looking for a job? baffles me! especially as i am about to apply.

[Davey Clark]

If you want my tuppenceworth (which I'm certain you all don't), then I say that if a company doesn't have the professional courtesy to acknowledge an application for employment, then they ain't gonna be worth working for!

My advice is stick where you are, and be happy, don't sell out your happiness for greenbacks.

SuckSqueezBangBlaw!

[eagerbeaver]

In fact, how on earth do you know this Handoek? You say you are in the US, thats an awfully long way to hear about something like this.

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: eagerbeaver ]

[wonderbusdriver]

DLH did the same thing last year... (and took quite a bit of heat from the workers council/union for the way they did it)

These people are young and won´t have anywhere else to go (until they have the hours), so just from that point it makes economical sense for Ryan - and they won´t be whining for the LHS anytime soon.

The DLH-trainers loved ´em because they´ve recieved excellent training at KLS, are multilingual , extremely disciplined and "up to it".
I´ve heard the same thing from the line.

But they´re also well organized, have a personal network going that´s faster than PPRUNE and they´re not stupid!
So, if Ryan is as bad as some say...

It´s all a matter of economics for all involved.

[Jed A1]

EU reg's / labour law. We are all one now.

If you find yourself unemployed, try signing on for unemployment benefit in another EU state - should work?

[SQ7000]

For those of you who don't know "handoek" is the Dutch word for towel. Maybe he's not spending enough time looking for a job but doing something else?

[LAVDUMPER]

Which aircraft are the 30 junior pilots being assigned to - the 737-200 or 737-800? I am assuming the 200.

Hey, it would be great experience for any junior pilot. I wish them luck!

My question relates to reciprocity: can UK students fairly apply to a Dutch or other EU airline? Would language alone be such an important issue? Can a non-Dutch-speaking UK pilot realistically apply to KLM or Transavia and get hired?

Cheers

[stagger]

30 pilots with a total time of 200 hours? That's an average of less than 7 hours each :eek:

[9712 on FL410]

All 30 pilots are going to fly the B737-800 which will be delivered the end of this year.

They have 200 hours total time EACH !!!


-It is a deal between Scheiner FSC training division and Ryanair.-

:D I know, I'm one of the lucky 30. :D

[Rat Catcher]

9712 on Fl410
When you have more than 200 hours, perhaps you will hear the old adage about not crowing to loudly....lest you end up on the receiving end :p :p

[Flintstone]

As a matter of interest would these lucky people be on the same pay scale as other Ryanair F/O's?

[Manflex55]

Well that proves one thing : U don't need to B a 509er or have paid the ATP Academy to B hired by a Major with low time (thank God). 9712, can U give an estimate of the cost of your flight training from 0 to 200TT with your FTO in Holland (to compare with the 509ers here) ? Thanks & good luck. Enjoy the 800.

MF

[wonderbusdriver]

sorry to butt in again, but...

The laster poster has a point!
Let us know, what the pay deal is - Is it the same as any other new FO at Ryan?
I sure hope so!!

To some others here:
Do I dedect a certain amount of envy of the people that got into such an ab-initio program?
What choice do these people have? (be honest!)
Would you have signed on, with the debt of 200000 Guilders they have to pay off?
The kid is just happy to be getting a 737NG-rating plus hours and money too.

They were (more or less) lucky, so just congratulate them and don´t be bitter about it.
As soon as Momma KLM calls, they´ll be gone anyway...

[Manflex55]

Hmmm, 200,000 Guilders, that's £57k, so about the same as a UK's 509er then.

MF

[Dirty Harry]

My best wishes go to the 30 new co-pilots who have been lucky enough to secure an excellent first job. My question is simply this: there are many well qualified 200+ hr ab-initio UK pilots who have spent many thousands of £s to get themselves a licence and who have no doubt been on the Ryanair waiting list for months, even years. So why have none of these folks been hired? It’s my guess these folks would not even get a look in with KLM or Transavia, even if they did speak some Dutch.

[9712 on FL410]

Thank you for all the congratulations.

The training from 0 to 200TT in the Netherlands is about FL200.000,- .
In addition we have to buy our own TR on the 800 which is about FL 50.000,-
But after the first 6 months we get the normal FO salary form Ryanair. I can assure you this salary is better then a starting FO for KLM.

Greetz.

[bertieb]

It's better than I'm on in BA.They never even acknowledged my application! :rolleyes:

[magneto99]

They are also hiring low time Irish/Uk pilots at the mo.

[Jet A1]

Throwing my two-peneth in ..... Schreiner own this NLS school which is based at Maastricht and offers ab initio training. They have a Airline Transition course at the end of the course which gives the student a full B737 3/4/500 CBT groundschool and the 40 hours in the Full Flight Sim.......KLM seemed to take a lot of these guys on when I was there doing my own conversion......Interesting to note that Ryanair air use Schreiner's B737-800 sim at Amsterdam......Possibly you scratch my back ?????

[Flyin' High]

Some have raised the question why has FR not taken some of the more experienced pilots instead of newbies.... Surely it is a case of do as we do not how others do it.

So FR gets a bunch of pilots who can be shown the "Ryanair way" without the "we do it differently at XXX" attitude which can arise.

This type of recruitment policy is widespread in other industries, Why not Air Transport???

[vheijens]

Ok just to get some things straight.

Ryanair hired maybe some NLS students. But remember they have to pay there own type-rating for $25.000 ?!?! You sure will have to work long to get this money back (remember they already have a lown of almost $100.000). I hope for them that Ryanair is paying these guys very good.

And Ryanair has almost only eastern-europe pilots.

And maybe the salary is better that a starting 1st officer at KLM. (BTW. you start as a 2nd officer at KLM). But if start at KLM you get (free!!!) a 747-400 or MD11 type-rating. Gess where I would like to start.

And KLM hireing NLS students for the moment??? They have a waitinglist of about 130 people. And the have there own school.

And just for the record. The KLS gives there student 75 hour on an Airbus A310 Full Flight (and offcourse there is a groundcourse, LOFT, ...). That is why all these guys go to Lufthansa (NOT Cityline).

Greetings.
Have a nice life at Ryanair

[springbok449]

Manflex55,
Reading from your posting and also previous ones you must have had a real issue with ATP Academy now that is not my problem but to set things straight you do NOT pay anything to go trough the ATP scheme, they provide you with the rating and you part with no money unless you fail the rating.
Seems reasonable to me...
Regards Bokkie449.

[beamer]

Oh terrific - so Easy 737's are going to be rushing around with low-time co-pilots on
long multi-sector days - hope my wife and
kids are not down the back. Now - before the
bricks start flying - I'm not having a go at
low time pilots per se. BA and sundry charter
operators have been using cadets for years
and whilst I would prefer to have somebody
beside me with a deeper level of appropriate
experience, I do not believe in the 'I had
it tough, so should you' philosophy which
still exists out there. My question is where
are these new Easy pilots to be based ? If they in the UK is this just another example
of UK airlines hiring from outside their own
locale ? The duplicity of accents notably
from South Africa, Australasia and North
America flying low-cost airlines in UK airspace is quite staggering. The free-movement of labour within the EEC does explain cross-border employment but why does
BALPA allow so many others to apparently find
jobs in the UK so easily when the reverse
would most certainly not appear to be true.

I know that this train of thought will bring
not a little flak from the colonials and new
low time pilots but I wonder what the response will be from UK pilots who are
either unemployed or are seeking to progress
by attempting to join operators such as
Go or Easy ?

[beamer]

Oops - sorry - can't tell my Ryan from my
Easy - tricky things keyboards - however
the fundamental questions remain the same !

[Gaza]

Under EU law a citizen of an EU country can work in any other EU country without the need for a work permit. It's probably true to say that a non-Dutch speaker has got little or no chance or ever getting an appointment at KLM. A fluent English speaking Dutchman has no legal impediment to prevent them working for a UK/Eire based airline. Some may no agree with employing people from outside the home country but unfortunatley there is nothing legally to prevent it. In fact, if a company discriminated against someone from another country who was qualified for the position they could find themselfs in court.

[9712 on FL410]

Small misunderstanding:

The students from the KLS have also paid $100.000 for their training.
There are 2nd officers who are at the same place for the last 4 years. (they've got a TR but are legally not allowed to fly)
The students from the KLS don't get on the waitinglist automatically. Those 130 persons are waiting for about 2 years already.

The most pilots on the waitinglist have been offered a FO position for KLC on the F50 or the F70. Is that something to wait for 3 years.
By the time you get hired at the KLM I have about 2000 hours.
All the new students from the KLS are in the same situation as students from the NLS. (except, the NLS has FSC training)


Greetings.
:D I will have a great live at Ryanair. :D

[AeroBoero]

There are a lot of non-Dutch speakers working around here for KLM/KLC - MP and maybe (not sure) Transavia.

AB

[Ficky]

On a global basis, there seems to be a direct correlation between pilot experience and fare structure. Lesson there I think when it comes to booking your travel. The scary thing is that you don't know you're not experienced until either a) you need the experience you don't have or b) you finallly get it and look back on all those years.

To all the "experienced" Ryan Air pilots, take care out there. I'm serious.

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Timber ]

[Findo]

There have been Ryanair 737-200s bashing the PIK circuit for the last couple of days. If these guys are all less than 200 hrs they seem to be getting the hang of it pretty quick. Not sure who holds their hands outside the circuit but as they are under the same European Safety Regulators someone must be happy with the experince mix in the front end.
;)

[Bangkok]

If you had read some magazines lately concerning aviation, you would have read a lot about ab intio training. Conclusions of these articles are mainly that airlines want to have ab initio pilots because of their training which is completely focused on flying for an airline.
Besides most of the European airlines see one hour of flying in Europe equal to five to ten hours in the States (their statement is that flying in the States is like driving a car on a parking lot). And how much good will 500 hours of cessna do me when I will fly a b737?

The 200 hrs I have made, were all done in Holland and surrounding countries and consisted mainly of local training. The cross country flights I have made never took longer then 1,5 hrs (vice versa). Most of my training was flying different approaches on different fields and abnormal procedures.

Still, I agree that 200 hrs is not much compared to some captains who have flown 15000+. But I sure do not compare my training with a dentist who likes to fly for fun. So, you don't have to be afraid to send your relatives with my airline!

[Ontheairwaves]

Yes Ryanair may be hiring outside of Ireland and the UK but then so does Aer Lingus and Aer Arann, the other 2 Irish airlines....if the guys/gals are suited to the job then good luck to them.
What i can't stand is the likes of BEAMER who seems to me to have never been a 200hr pilot. He says he's never had it tough well then spare a thought to those of us who have had it tough and still managed to get somewhere.
If you get hired by Ryanair now and don't have a TR you have to pay IEP12,000 towards your training and are still now guaranteed a job at the end.....i know some other airlines who do the same type of thing.
IF Ryanair is as bad as everyone seems to think it is then where's the mass exudos of pilots from it's ranks??????
Can't see any.....you may not like the way they do business but right now one has to take what they get.
I wouldn't give them too much of a hard time for not hiring from within their country since the flag carrier has been doing just this for god knows how long too.....
:confused:

[9712 on FL410]

I totally agree with bangkok!!!!
I'll see you at the Ryanair TR training.

How are you M?

[Bokkerijder]

Well, basically this is an English version of a (never ending !) discussion that goes on on the Dutch PPRuNe (www.airwork.nl)

A few things from my perspective :

1) YES, most Dutch airlines hire non-Dutch speakers. The usual requirement is to speak English and that you are willing to learn some Dutch. See AeroBoero’s post. (Hi AeroBoero, what’s up :cool: ?)

2) I am also a bit sad to hear that the NLS has found another convienient ‘parking stand’ for it’s surplus pilots. The NLS and KLS have already dumped some with Austrian, Alitalia (when things were still going well between KLM and Alitalia) and Lufthansa. There are a lot of unemployed pilots out there (low timers OR high timers) that are working very hard in order to make ends meet and they should be given an equal chance and NOT be excluded due to some “I’ll scratch your back, if you scratch mine” deal.

3) In the Netherlands, a lot of pilots who have done their training at the NLS or KLS feel superior over pilots who have trained with other schools. I AM sure that the NLS and KLS ofer great training (if you can afford it !) BUT the bottom line is that we all have to meet JAR-FCL practical exam standards, or don’t we….? :confused:

4) Flying in the States. This is a popular bashing ‘item’ but also a bit strange since most KLS/NLS graduates and Dutch Examiners have NEVER flown one single mile in the US :mad: !!! Most of these folks think that everything is sh*t, if it has USA written on it. The license is sh*t, the pilots are sh*t, the FAA is sh*t, the hours in your logbook are sh*t……the list goes on and on.

Perfect example is Bangkok’s post on this thread. Bangkok has 200 hours, (all “done” in Holland ;) ) and claims that flying in the US is “like driving a car on a parking lot.” Thank the Lord that he/she has flown “different approaches on different fields and abnormal procedures” here in Europe, most likely to ‘exiting’ and ‘difficult’ airports like Budel, Hilversum or Lelystad. I’m sure that this experience will be 'invaluable' when flying on Ryan’s 737 NG’s ! :D

5) Question: do all pilots have to pay $ 25.000,- for a type, or does this only apply to NLS pilots ?

[ 31 August 2001: Message edited by: Bokkerijder ]

[Superpilut]

My opinion: Congratulations!
It's already hard enough to get a job these days and if these guys can manage their typerating straight after their Seneca or MCC course, i think they're qualified. Most probably they'll have more technical knowledge than your typical Captain, xo just let them fly a bit and they'll be great pilots. Remember we've all been out there with 200 hrs... Good luck guys!

[Gonna]

Bokkerijder,

apparently you do not know too much about the course at KLS. All KLS students that
graduate have about 200 hours, of which 150 are flown in the US. Until recently they flew in Tucson, Arizona, now they are at Pan Am in Ft. Pierce, Florida.

All VFR/IFR training is being conducted in the USA, the 50 hours in the Netherlands is for the exams and the multi engine-rating.

Gonna

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Gonna ]

[CAVU]

Bangkok

May I ask what European airlines would consider flying a CRJ for a Delta "like driving a car on a parking lot"?

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: CAVU ]

[Bokkerijder]

My point EXACTLY Gonna !

If flying is really that bad in the States, why does the KLS send it's students to the US ? :eek:

Oh, wait a minute ! I get it ! If other people go to the States because it's cheaper they are lousy pilots, but if the KLS does the same then of course it's different. Yeah right !

What a mentality ! First they go to the US because of it's excellent aerospace structure, competent ATC and competitive prices, then when the come back they start badmouthing the US !

This really makes me sick ! :mad:

[Bigscotdaddy]

Don't expect logic from these companies - ie Ryanair and Easyjet, when it comnes to hiring policies. - As a former commercial instructor, and a current Airline Captain, I've been aware of their hiring trends for some time now, and I assure you they have very little commercial sense. Maybe they're hiring the usual 'clones' of themselves, because I'm certainly aware of them taking on some obvious 'lemons' whilst rejecting some of the most competent guys I've flown with in recent years!!

[Idunno]

Ontheairwaves, when will you grow up son, and get an opinion that doesn't change lane every 5 minutes.

[FreighterJock]

I totally agree with you,Bokkerijder.Well said! :p

[Gonna]

First of all, I never said anything about the quality of the US system. However, you must admit there is a diference in approach between Europe and the US. The US point of view seems to be that experience makes a good pilot whereas in Europe knowledge and personality are more important.

Ofcourse the system one has been educated in plays a role in one's opinion about the other system. Some people think it is strange airlines employ very inexperienced pilots, others would be concerned if an airline would hire 'just about anyone who has been in an airplane long enough'.

Lets not judge one another on these kind of opinions. This is the way it works, and has worked for many many years now. Why think it's going to change any time soon?

Gonna

[batty_boy]

Basically it works like this:
If you have money you have a better chance of becoming an airline pilot regardless of your actual talents via the approved school route.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability.
During my uk coversion i learnt squat about flying, alot about decca navigation.(what bingo has to do with flyin I dont know).


A Little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially in someone who has probably been bred with a superiority complex.

One way to level the playing field would be for the government to run flying training fir civvies with a common entrance allowing anyone to attempt entrance without penalising them for any educational history or social background.intelligence is intelligence regardless of state exams.
only then will the industry cease to be infused with arrogant over privilaged tossers, empowered by crm to blab their under qualified opions at inapropiate times.
(not slagging crm, just that aspect of it)
the old check and balance of the self improver has effectively been neutralised by the jaa requirements.

If the government will train you to be a doctor for nothing over 6 years why not a pilot for 18 months.

right i'm off back to bed and i can spell, i just cant type.

[Gonna]

For your information: anyone who passes the selection procedure can start at KLS, regardless of the amount of money on their bank-account. The KLS ensures that anyone who passed can get a financing arrangement with the local bank, so it is not an education only for the rich.

Gonna

[Alpine Flyer]

UK students can apply to any EU airline, but some may require national language skills.

The problem might be that far more non-British speak English than British speak other foreign languages (to a degree sufficient to integrate into a company).

Speaking the world's #1 language as a mother tongue has it's disadvantages, too.

We have lots of Dutch at our German-speaking company and they all speak fluent enough German for a (sophisticated) chat.

[The Guvnor]

Seems to me that there's an awful lot of sour grapes on this thread! So what if Ryanair has a deal with a flight school to provide them with low time students? Does anyone criticise CSE or OATS for the same thing? Or is it because these guys are Dutch and you feel that they are taking your jobs? Sorry, lads (and ladies) - this is the EU and we now have free movement of labour - live with it! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Far better to offer them congratulations on a job well done - and welcome them to Ryanair.

[Bokkerijder]

Dear Guvnor,

A little Dutch aviation history :

For decades the KLS and NLS supplied the major Dutch airlines with pilots. The KLS generally delivered them to the KLM and the NLS mostly to Martinair and Transavia.
The people on the selection committees with these airlines were mostly KLS or NLS graduates, so this laid a base for a “I wash your back, if you wash mine.”
Until roughly the ‘80’s….

Along comes the ‘self improver,’ in Holland commonly referred to as a ‘free market’ pilot. These pilots were frustrated of being excluded from aviation, because they did not have the money for these flight schools, or did not know the right people (it used to help if daddy or an uncle is a captain 747… ;) to get accepted.
The duopoly of KLS and NLS is threatened and an effective campaign is launched to label these self improvers as “inferior” pilots, “poorly trained” in the USA. The people on the selection panels do their bit to protect the duopoly and raise the standards for pilots who have NOT been trained by the NLS or KLS. Self improvers need to have a minimum of 500 hours on a turbo prop, while KLS and NLS graduates get an interview with 150 hours on a piston single and some hours on a Seneca. This has caused many Dutch pilots to roam the world looking for work. As you can see in the above posts, there are a lot of self improver Dutch pilots flying all over Europe.

Now in the late 90’s and the beginning of this decade KLM, Martinair and the other airlines are almost not hiring. Strangely the few pilots they did hire, had a lot more experience then their ‘own’ bred pilots. :confused: Gee, I wonder why ? :p

So, because of the poor job market in the Netherlands, the KLS and NLS are dumping their graduates all over Europe and (again !) spoil the chances for any pilot who does not have the correct flight school name on his/her resume. Effectively they are doing to Europe what they have done for decades in Holland and it’s not a pretty picture ! On top of that the JAA is, as batty_boy correctly pointed out, encouraging this ! Fantastic ! :mad:

So, to summarise, as a free market/self improver pilot, I (along with a LOT of my colleagues) are not happy to continuously get screwed by these flight schools. Yes, there ARE sour grapes ! Sour DUTCH grapes.

[Sick]

I hear BA mainline, (757) have taken some Dutch 200 hour tt folk. Apparently they're doing fine, but BA recruitment seems somewhat idiosyncratic to take these ahead of some excellent applicants (& ejected hold pool swimmers) I know who have stacks of TP time but are not ZFT rated.

[Bangkok]

First of all I would like to reply on my own reply in which I clearly state that the AIRLINES think that hours flown in Europe are better then those flown in the States. Since I did my training at the NLS and have flown all my hours in Holland (I have never been in Hilversum or Lelystad) and surrounding countries I don't have any idea how flying in the States is. And cavu what I'm trying to say here is only applicable to low time pilots.
Bokkerijer: It seems you are very frustrated about your own training. Couldn't get accepted by the NLS or KLS? But for the price I have paid, I could have 1000 hrs if I started at an other school in Holland. (Yes, I've paid every last cent myself, but because I was going to do the NLS, de bank would loan me the money. Why would they do that?) Since the KLM and daughters did not hire low time pilots for a long time I think that the "free market" pilots in Holland had an advantage above us. (The pilots KLM hired, did indeed have a lot of hours, becaus KLM was looking for captains and not F/O)
About languages: How many letters do you think I have received in which I was told that I have had a very good training and that when I spoke Finnish/Swedish/Spanish/Bahassa or Chinese I sure should apply again? But I have to agree with Alpine Flyer that everyone from outside the UK has the advantage of speaking a language other then English.

The major advantage by the NLS/KLS is that they have student counsils/directors who are trying to make contacts with airlines. They invite airlines to have a look at our syllabus so that they can see what kind of training whe have had. Untill now most airlines were very impressed by this syllabus. Now concerning Ryanair: Whe have the big advantage that the NLS is part of Schreiner. In this way the NLS can offer "type rated pilots". This is why Ryanair wants to give us a contract. So yes, the $25.000 is only applicable to NLS pilots.

So I'm sorry, eat the grape!

[Crewresourcemanager]

It is good that Ryanair is reqruiting 200 hour pilots. That means that even though you are hired after them ( and have 1500 hours +) Then you will have command before them.

[Deep Float]

I agree with the Guv. It's a free world these days. Some say it's only for the rich, but you can get loans, like me, and therefore bury your own grave, like me. I am Dutch, live and work in the UK and am an OATS graduate, which training I funded with a loan. So I have big debts and no flying job. Sour? Well, at the end of the day, the companies in charge of flying and training make the deals that are best for them. And you gotta learn to live with that. And Bokkerijder, you've got a good job now down in Basel, dont you? (in case you dont remember, I was there at the selection but didnt get chosen) so what's the complaining all about? And a last point....handoek is spelled with 2 d's, like handdoek..............

Cheers!

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Deep Float ]

[Freight Loser]

Zut Alors! What is this? Heaven forbid that Ryanair should start hiring people who they think are most suitable for the job rather than hiring someone waving a BALPA flag good and high. You'll be telling me next that they don't recognise seniority and have the audacity to promote talented guys rather than blokes whose "turn has come". And we can't have that now, can we?

[KIWISAHIB]

GAZA - Try and get a job in Turkey. The Turkish pilots union wont allow any non-turkish pilots to work for a turkish Airline based in Turkey. BUT Turkish pilots abound in RYANAIR!!!!!!! Is that Fair????????
Must be - its EU rules.

I wouldnt work for FR. Their business ethics are lower than a Rattle snakes belly in a cattle rut. Their employment ethics are "Meat Cleaver Management". All their management should be Keel hauled under the Titanic!!!!
Have a nice day in FR. :eek: :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes:

[flying headbutt]

Look's like Ryanair will save themselves a bundle by getting people to pay for their own type rating. What next, you pay to sit in the RHS and get some hours like some of those naff schemes in the States?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flying Headbut - yeah, very probably. :(

WWW

[kriskross]

Skytruck,
Unless things have changed recently or there is a special waiver, such that allows Icelandic companies into the UK market, then Ryanair would have to get around the EU Right Of Abode regulations for any non-EU pilots, the same way Companies have to for Americans. No major axe to grind here, just facts. I believe the IAA are fairly helpful doing this. My Company has some young Dutch First Officers, an EU country after all, and first rate they are too.

[Pianoman]

Batty_boy says: "If you have money you have a better chance of becoming an airline pilot regardless of your actual talents via the approved school route.
If you dont then its a tougher route, used to be via the states, where the flying is the mutts nuts and the standards high ( in general).
the arrogance of these 200 hr middle class dutch plonkers is astounding. they are confusing privilage, or wealth with ability."

I'd like to comment on this statement, since I think it contains a lot of prejudices that exist about ab-initio students, which in my opinion are not justified.

When making the choice for a career as an airline pilot, several options exist. The most straightforward way to achieve this goal is to follow an ab-initio training program at a flight school with a known reputation, that has proven to deliver their graduated student directly to the airlines.

For me it was a very logical step to first try to be accepted in such a program. Unfortunately, nearly everybody pursuading a professional career in aviation in The Netherlands will therefore initially apply to schools like KLS, NLS and EPST. Because of the large number of applicants only those who pass the various selection stages are offered a position in the training program. Key factors in a succesfull application are motivation and ability and NOT, as batty_boy points out, how rich, wealthy and arrogant you are.

For KLS a large part of the selection is done by an independent testing office (Aeromedical Institute nowadays) and I think it is clear that they don't test you for a couple of days to find out how much money you have on your bank account or whether you are arrogant enough to make it as an airline pilot.

KLS has the policy that no matter what you're financial situation is, once you are accepted for training, the bank will provide you with a loan. In case of failure of the student during training or the drop-off of a student due to other (for example medical) reasons, a special fund will take over your debts. This provides the student with a much smaller financial risk and also guarantees that no matter how poor or rich you are, your chances of getting into the program are equal.

I also disagree with Bokkerijder who points out that being accepted by KLS or NLS has everything to do with 'knowing the right person at the right place'. I can tell you that from our class there is nobody that has a connection in anyway to the airlines that KLS supplies its students to. As I pointed out earlier, the selection is carried out by an independent institute and they are totally not interested in the abilities of your father or mother, brother or sister, who might all be very capable pilots. It is YOU that is the subject of the testing and YOU have to prove you have the ability and motivation to make it as an airline pilot.

Another point of disagreement with Bokkerijder concerns the fact that we 'look down upon the self-improver'. In fact most of us are very much aware of the amount of commitment it takes to walk that road. The experience you gain is invaluable and you will have encountered all the real-life probems and challenges facing a pilot, that we as ab-initio's will only face once we land our first job at an airline.

The difference between the self-improver and we as ab-initios at KLS, lies in my opinion in the fact, that from day 1 we are flying according to the procedures as used by KLM. This means that when flying light singles for your intial-training you are already working in the multi-crew-concept, fly in the airliner style and keeping up a very high pace of training. The last part of the training (after only 6 months from your first flight) is done on an Airbus A310 6 DOF full flight simulator. When you are finished you have been transformed into a KLM-robot. That's the reason we are hired by airlines like KLM and Lufthansa with only 200 flight hours and not because self-improvers would be less capable of doing that same job.

I don't think that the statistics can prove that airlines employing ab-initios are less safe to fly with than airlines who do not. It will probably remain a point of discussion whether it is a good thing to have relatively inexperienced first and second officers on board of your aircraft.

Maybe some pilots(captains) who have been flying with ab-initios can more objectively participate in this discussion. The current discussion seems to be one of the ab-initios against the self-improvers which is not a good thing, since we finally all have to share the same cockpit, work together and trust each others abilities and experience, no matter what way led us into that position as an airline pilot.

[the maker]

I think I know Bokkerijder is frustated for two reasons:

1 He did not pass the selection at the NLS (FACT)

2 He did his training prob. in the US and in the end paid a lot more than he would have paid at the NLS.

Furthermore, I think people are taking it the other way around. The first question among low-timers is always, 'how many hours have you got?' When I was a lowtimer with 190 hrs there were a lot of 'free-market guys' looking down on me because of their 1000 hours Metro/King-Air/Beech, etc.

The thing we are talking about is merely a behaviour initiated by guys who did their training in the US.

So, Bokkerijder, please grow up, I'll take it(your profile) you have a job now with Crossair, enjoy it.

[Ontheairwaves]

IDUNNO
what are you on about...here we are talking about FR hiring pilots....and yes if they have what it takes good for them.....
where are you in the midatlantic anyway????
Go back to your plane spotting.... :cool: :cool:

[Mindthegap]

And according to my source (first hand) they are still reqruiting STRONGLY low hour pilots. Apparently some of them are not soing so good in the sim?