Avcanada censorship

[Carrier]

There seems to be a serious censorship problem on the Avcanada forums. Truthful threads that are unfavourable to certain individuals and organisations vanish without explanation. Efforts to expose safety issues and abusive practices towards employees are obstructed by Avcanada mods. To make it worse, this censorship is unevenly applied, as some very critical posts are allowed to remain. It takes time and effort to compose suitable posts, particularly where there are problems being exposed and one wants to be fair as well as being exact to avoid any defamation. It is frustrating to see this thrown away by uncaring or obstructive mods on Avcanada. Until this problem is resolved Avcanada should be avoided as it is a waste of time and effort to post anything the slightest bit controversial or unfavourable to certain parties on there. Issues affecting Canadian aviation should be posted on this forum, where they will receive a fair exposure.


Below are the first two posts from a thread “Mods!!.. QUIT deleting GOOD threads!!”that was started on Avcanada today to address this issue. It has already been deleted without explanation by Avcanada’s mods.

flyinthebug:
Who else is getting completely fed up with the moderation of this site??.. Im ranting but would you please explain to me where the "crash in YXL" thread now went? We had a GOOD discussion ongoing on that thread, no names were used (other then the company name was mentioned).. Please tell me why you couldnt just omit the name of the air service and let a good thread carry on?.. I see MY accident from last year is still on here. It also has the companies name in that thread.. so WHY did this latest accident in YXL get taken down?.. Maybe i should threaten to sue you for keeping MY thread up about MY accident for the past year?.. This is unacceptable and your gonna lose some valuable posters if you keep this kind of dictatorship up on this site!
My .02 cents for the day
Gets off soapbox
Rant over.
Fly safe all!

Carrier:
I agree that there is a problem on here with good posts or whole threads being eliminated. It is particularly unhelpful to honest operators and employees in Canadian aviation when posts and threads exposing unsafe practices, companies and individuals or acts of dishonesty vanish. Avcanada should be endorsing and encouraging such posts. It should be part of the solution to improve aviation safety and weed out shysters by exposing them, rather than being part of the problem by working with the shysters to hide their wrong doings and let them continue to exploit and threaten the safety of both those who work in the industry and those who are its customers.
A perfect example of Avcanada’s wimping out is its removal earlier this year of the whole thread on the Canadian ATPL obtained by forgery while the newspaper report on the court case, in which the individual admitted his guilt, remained in the public forum on the Calgary Herald’s website and is still available on other forums: http://www.pprune.org/canada/367387-westjet-employee-faked-atpl.html Those considering employing the guilty individual in future or working for or being a passenger on one of the air operators that employed him after the problem with his ATPL became known should have this information available to them so that it can be part of their decision making. The same applies to certain unscrupulous companies where threads and posts naming them and identifying their deficiencies have mysteriously vanished. This also applies to Transport Canada and its deficiencies, including its ineffective SMS.
What is so mystifying and unpleasant is the uneven application of the censorship by Avcanada. Some companies and individuals get immediate protection and anything the slightest bit unfavourable is immediately removed. Indeed, it seems that the names of some cannot be mentioned on here in any context. On the other hand the unfavourable posts on others are ignored and left on here. Why the difference?
I appreciate that Avcanada does not want defamatory statements on here but the truth is not defamatory and there is no excuse for Avcanada eliminating truthful but unfavourable posts and threads on certain companies, government departments and individuals.
If Avcanada will not get its act together and make a stand on improving safety and eliminating abuse in Canadian aviation then there are alternatives. Copy threads you are interested in on to your computer. If they vanish from this board then repost them on another forum such as http://www.pprune.org/canada-42/

[JammedStab]

Which individuals and companies are getting special protection? I didn't know that this was happening.

[+TSRA]

It doesnt take much to see which companies seem to get preferential treatment over on AvCanada...

Borek, Summit, WJ seem to me to be the main benefactors lately of the moderators while other companies seem to get the raw end of the stick (or their CP's, Ops Managers, etc).

It used to be funny, but its always the same old people complaining or making comments about how everyone else has problems, and yet when a particular companies Twin Otter runs off a 4,000 ft strip it is left up for a day or two, then like Houdini it disappears. :}

Lets just hope "we" dont screw PPRune up as bad as AvCanada is...

[MAN2YKF]

I am sure i can accommodate you all on our aviation site :) if need be.
All it takes is a little tweaking of the program and it's up! and we have good mods, un biased.
I recently looked at AVCanada and i don't think i will sign up, i have read as a guest but never posted on there.

[Carrier]

Additional companies mentioned in Avcanada threads that have vanished are Bar XH AIr, Courtesy Air, National Aviation Inc, Sunwest Aviation and the company referred to in the “crash in YXL” (Sioux Lookout) thread. An individual who seems to have benefited is Ryan Atkins of ATPL forgery infamy. It seems none of these can be mentioned on Avcanada in an unfavourable light.

[SIERRA ECHO XRAY]

So fellaz.....why do I love the good old US of A.....:ok: Gear up ..fire up and git u gunz...!!!

[CaptW5]

My guess is that it has something to do with some recent court rulings, and the possibility of lawsuits. An example:

Law Times - Controversy rages over Internet privacy rights (http://www.lawtimesnews.com/200906084793/Headline-News/Controversy-rages-over-Internet-privacy-rights)

[dhc2widow]

Well, you might know me as a mod over on that there forum being discussed. Only since March, mind you, but nevertheless ...

The most recent thread disappearance started like this ... I got a PM from the accident pilot asking that the thread be removed as he/she was still "recovering". I told that person that I would pull it for the time being, but no more than a week, and would have to discuss with the other mods. Other mods received some PMs suggesting that there was reason to leave the thread for discussion and so it was returned to service, so to speak. In the meantime, someone had posted a "what happened to the thread" thread. Then it disappeared with no trace in the logs. My guess is that admin received a PM, maybe even a lawyered up PM, demanding removal. The rest of the mods don't know what happened to that thread. Admin has no obligation to tell us, but may do so when he gets a chance.

Other threads referenced here which have disappeared have gone because someone did, in fact, lawyer up. AvCanada does not have the money to fight in court for the words of anonymous users who may not even have their stories straight.

AvCanada has a different moderation style, to be sure, than Pprune. Not better or worse, but different.

[Willie Everlearn]

WARNING: Personal Opinion

I've read through many posts on various topics on Avcanada's website. Rarely is there a post of interest to me so I wouldn't waste my time regestering. :ugh:

Let's be honest. PPRuNe has it's similar postings because Pilots are Pilots but it's at least global in content.

Western forum, West Jet bias? There's a surprise!! :rolleyes:

For my money, I wouldn't waste my time with AvCanada's forum. But, that's me. I can assure you, I've had one or two of my own postings on PPRuNe 'disappear' for whatever reason. It happens.

It all boils down to freedom of choice and don't bet on not being censored.

Willie :ok:

[Tan]

I’m not surprised as I had a similar experience on Pprune concerning WJ. It turned out that one of the Mods was either trying to get hired by WJ or was already an employee of WJ. The same Mod using the same handle is also a Mod on AvCanada and is a WJ pilot.

It’s called selective censorship whatever...

[punkalouver]

I read avcanada regularly. There is a general lower maturity level than the AEforum or PPrune, but it is great for keeping somewhat up to date on the smaller companies and other aspects of Canadian Aviation besides the big companies.

I suggest that censored Avcanada stuff be posted here on this thread.

But not the immaturity.

[Carrier]

Quote by Doc, mod on Avcanada: “I've never understood how these companies even answer their phones when this CONTRAIL dude calls.
These companies are puppets on a string. Nothing more.”

It’s just like Avcanada’s response when someone representing the ATPL forger or Sleazebag Air phones! Doc, please set the example then. You, Widow, Admin and the other mods need to practise what you preach.

It is not defamation to state the truth. Except in certain situations, such as those involving juvenile delinquents or state security, every Canadian has the right to know what is said and admitted and by whom in a Canadian law court. It is not defamation to report on or pass that on to others. That includes the case of the pilot who pleaded guilty to forgery regarding his ATPL. The present Avcanada knee-jerk reaction to every complaint from or on behalf of wrongdoers is destroying Avcanada’s credibility. Readers cannot know if what is left on Avcanada is the truth or is some distortion at the behest of a slimy operator, individual or some low-life lawyer. It undermines those of us who are making efforts to have Canadian aviation cleaned up and the unsafe and abusive operators and individuals weeded out.

As stated, Avcanada has destroyed its own credibility. By now the word is out to every aviation spiv and his lawyer that a simple lawyer’s letter or phone call will cause Avcanada to remove or distort any exposure on its site of wrong doings involving them! They can carry on with their dirty tricks and unsafe practices, secure in the knowledge that victims and other interested parties will not be able to expose them on Avcanada.


Quote by Doc: “...it's a subject that's long over due to be discussed”

So selective! Why Contrails and not others who are actually worse or openly unsafe, dishonest or unethical? There are many other subjects in vanished threads that are long overdue to be discussed - and exposed.

[+TSRA]

Exactly... the mods at AVCanada, and YES Widow I put you into this group too, do not practice what they preach.

Too many times are posts and topics removed which have no basis for legal action, they are simply :mad: sessions, yet you make a comment and then suddenly a day later the post (or thread) is missing.

Sure there will be some cases where a thread or post must be removed because of possible legal ramifications, I dont think anyone here or on AvCanada would doubt that, however the level of deletion over there is such that the courts in Canada must be FILLED with lawyers, companies and pilots bending each other over.

And before you respond with some sort of "...but we dont have the money to respond to every lawyer and lawsuit...", explain to me how a previous CP of mine was allowed to be raked over the coals in numerous different threads - not that I specifically disagree with the comments made, but alas, when someone mentioned something about a Borek CP that post was on the board for a shorter period of time than it takes my wife to go from 0 to :mad:.

Rant over.

[upperflightlevels]

Carrier,

you are nothing but a gossip looking for gossip. Not trying to SAVE the community. You read about RA in the paper isn't that good enough? People have lives and deal with stress differently. Can't you respect that. Glass houses my friend. btw don't know RA or anything about him, but you sure have a thirst.

The problem is that why don't you research things yourself instead of relying on third hand information on a slag-fest forum. It always amazes me that the real **** show stuff doesn't get deleted. It's their site. they can do what they want. If you don't like it leave. Go cry on another forum.:{

get a life.

[Sulako]

The more I think about it the more it offends me to hear some random guy bleating about some random conspiracy theory - I put at least a couple of hours a day into AvCanada, checking posts, approving posts, filtering out spam posts and dealing with the thousand daily micro-dramas that occur on the site.

Hey there, whomever started this thread, I'm Sulako.

I'm a mod on AvCanada so feel free to vent at me if it makes you feel better about life. While I'm listening to you whine like a mule, I would like to take the time to let you know a few things about AvCan so maybe this can die down for a little while - it'll inevitably come up again, and it's usually a year or so between "AvCanada mods are fascist/communist/terrorist whatevers".

AvCanada is a privately run site. It's run as a non-profit, and there's no money for lawyers, so we remove threads that people complain about. If any one of you decided to be a complete doorknob and randomly write an Avcanada mod an email asking for a post to be removed, it likely would be, because we don't have the money to hire lawyers to tell you to get stuffed.

It's really that simple. And if you don't like it, don't visit the site. That seemed intuitive to me, but clearly I'm mistaken.

If I come across as hostile, it's nothing actually personal toward submitter - I don't even remember the name of whomever started this thread, but it's because we go through this on a regular basis in our forums and I just get tired of it. Being a mod is a pretty damn thankless job, but we really do try our best, because we are proud of the site and because we want to bring value to Canadian aviation. Now as mods we aren't robots, we are human beings, each with our own experiences and biases. Every single day there are about 100 things for us to do on the site, and lots of those are grey-area things, like moderating a thread that is about to go nuclear but hasn't yet, or moderating between two people having a fight in the forums, etc. Now let's mix a tonne of work with nearly a dozen mods on the site, and it's inevitable that some judgement calls would be made differently by different people. The thing that unites all the mods is that we are all a) unpaid, and b) we are all very proud of the site and of our contributions toward it. If you enjoy the site, great. If you don't, then that's okay too - life will go on for all of us.

[Tan]

Good post..

[ScudRunner08]

What I think is the worst is when the likes of Widow and such Edit a post, Deleting or removing a post is one thing but when they edit your post and literally put word in your mouth that is bush league.

[dhc2widow]

You don't like profanity replacement? You'd rather see the whole thing gone than see it cleaned up? Not everyone wants to read the potty mouth along with the relevant comments.

[J.O.]

SR08;

I've seen some AvCanada posts before they were edited, and I think you and the others should be thanking the mods for taking the trouble to leave the relevant parts in while taking out the nonsense. If I'd have been doing the moderating, the whole thing would have been gone.

[ScudRunner08]

Widow go back and Read what I stated, here ill save you a mouse click.

What I think is the worst is when the likes of Widow and such Edit a post, Deleting or removing a post is one thing but when they edit your post and literally put word in your mouth that is bush league.

Profanity Replacement with a @#$@#% :mad: etc is a fine example of profanity replacement, but when someone for instance says

Exhibit A

AVCANADA • View topic - Life in Paulatuk (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=7195&hilit=Paulatuk&start=50)

It Proves the Search Function works! he probably googled Windy

When the Original post stated It Proves the Search Function works! he probably googled Inbreeding

This is an example of Putting word in people's mouths.

Off colour remark Yes
Profanity (potty mouth) No.

Given the topic of the thread and previous post on the topic it's a completely valid statement hardly worthy of Censorship, I think when censorship is dished out unevenly or inconsistently it lesson's the credibility of any site. I know mods have differing opinions on a topic but I would suggest at the very least a note should be sent to the poster stating "I have deleted your post for the following reason" (two seconds to type) and would save a lot of confusion. Agree or disagree with the mods decision you have at least been given a reason and a chance to modify your post in your own words.

I realize and agree that AvCanada cannot afford a lawyer to tell most of these companies to take a hike and that truth is not libel. So if XYZ Airline has an accident and its being discussed in a thread and it remains a factual discussion ask them if they have called or written the local papers and have ask them to censor their reports and get Transport Canada to pull the CADORS reports offline.

Either way AvCanada owes its popularity and thus its advertising revenues that maintain the site to the wide range of topics and opinions expressed on it. If AvCanada is censored beyond a reasonable amount it will loose credibility. I love magazines that favorably review a product such as a car or video game and the following page is a full spread advertising that product. :suspect:

AvCanada as one put it is like a Bar allot of BS some fighting a lot of opinions with some Truths not always entertaining but worth a stop by for a drink.

[dhc2widow]

Looks like someone (not me, hence my having no idea what you were talking about - I verified that by checking the mod logs too, btw) thought the thread was verging on racist and was trying to pre-empt a regression. I note to that effect by the mod in question would have been appropriate though, agreed.

I think you're making mountains out of molehills.

[Zipper Magnus]

This sounds all too very familiar. Didn't a small island country in the caribbean in 1964 open its prison gates and released 15000 prisoners to a bigger country not too far off just to rid themselves of the parasites in their society?

It was a genius move then as well...:D

[Carrier]

Another case of a pilot’s licence “irregularity” has arisen: Readers will note no problem with the culprit being named, just as PPRuNe accepted naming the former Westjet ATPL forger.

Both of these well respected forums do not impose any censorship when guilty parties are named. This really shows up Avcanada’s selective censorship and refusal to allow the identification of certain wrongdoers, including those who have pleaded guilty and been sentenced! Note that there is no possibility of defamation where the party has pleaded guilty in court and such a plea is part of the court records and is common knowledge in the media. In such circumstances the threat of defamation and lawyers’ letters mentioned by an Avcanada moderator is a red herring or simple bluff that Avcanada’s mods have been taken in by.

As mentioned previously, Avcanada has destroyed its own credibility. It has some good topics and some wise and experienced posters. People post questions on Avcanada and receive useful answers. There is no doubt it adds some knowledge and enjoyment to Canadian aviation but Avcanada could be of far more value if it would correct its failings. It is to be hoped that the operators of Avcanada will review their moderation policy to introduce some consistency in what is allowed and to permit the identification of all wrongdoers.

[PPRuNe Towers]

All a bit prissy isn't this girls?

We've been running for 13 years 24/7 and there's not a single day of that we haven't censored/deleted/altered or bowdlerised posts on this site.

Let's make it absolutely clear guys - not one single day.

Regards
Rob

[BartBandy]

:ok:

exactly.

+1

[DH8Canoehead]

Gotta add my name to the list. I've had a PM from the Admin at AVCanada telling me not to post names in threads. I simply asked a question about 'what ever happened to.....?' (Once).
I've seen many posts by people on said forum, including the board mods, that have names in them... some even could be considered 'negative'.
Seems to be a double standard over there.
I also agree with a huge lack of maturity there. I'm thinking of removing AVCanada from my 'bookmarks toolbar'.

[byebyeavcanada]

I'm thinking of removing AVCanada from my 'bookmarks toolbar'.

Already done for me.

I won' t go into details, but I don' t trust the avcanada mods.

[YYZBeacher]

I look at AvCanada most days, but never have posted, nor wanted to, as their rep for removal of innocent posts is becoming legendary - even when it is a valid, serious point being made.

Some censorship and removal of lunatic posts is to be expected, but not to the extent of AvCanada - which I believe goes as far as modifying posts to create a specific editorial slant. Wonder if any of them work at Navigator PR ??:ooh:

PPRUNE doesn't do that it seems, and therefore, the discussion is not prissy as we establish precisely what they're up to over there in potentially slanting opinion...

[fernytickles]

All a bit prissy isn't this girls?


You wouldn't be using "girls" like its a bad thing to be a girl, now would you PT?????? :rolleyes:

[YYZBeacher]

Apparently so...

The Sexual Politics Of The Mushroom Kingdom | GamesRadar (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/the-sexual-politics-of-the-mushroom-kingdom/a-20080108151643468019/p-2)

[YHZChick]

+1

Some with an agenda. Some with a double standard.

AvCanada is a waste of time.

[mrb09]

avcanada is an excellent place to learn of "the currupt officals @ tcca"! not too many threads where that is involved go missing, why is that? seems the"top poster" himself has quit posting and is just learking. too bad. he brought alot of useful info to avcanada.(sarcasim)

[YHZChick]

Funny, they had a thread about the forum and moderation, and I put in my 2 cents on why that foum gets little traffic (mods with agendas, no one is interested in reading thread after thread title "To the crew of AC 8777" with a body of how great the flight/service/etc was, etc) and it was promptly deleted.

There is nothing to be learned there. The atmosphere doesn't foster interesting debate or exchange. Much more interesting information and discussion is available through private messaging.

The thing is, without a lot of active users, forums like that serve little purpose. If I want breaking stories, I'll come here, because not only do you find out what, you get informed thoughts on why.

Avcanada has alienated everyone there who could even remotely offer the same.

I'd rather mods deleting stupid questions than asking them.

[Flybabe]

I haven't logged in to this site for quite some time...

Anyways, I have some mixed feelings for AvCanada. I'm happy with the job that the mods have been doing in regulating profanity, questionable avatars (although I see one or two still there), idiotic/drunken posts and the like. That's moderation. What I DON'T like is removal of threads or modification of names when the information is readily available though other print media (newspapers, etc). The info is out there. I also have to admit that the continual TCCA rant has me glazed over... I love you to death Chuck, really.. but enough is enough. As soon as that pops up, the thread is done for me.

I realize that AvCanada is a private site. I think, for the most part, that Joe and the mods do alright.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You can read Avcanada all you want now flybabe because I have finally decided that enough is enough so I decided the best way to solve the problem is don't post there anymore.

When I first started to share my experience with TCCA on Avcanada it was in the hope it would prevent someone else from making the same mistake I made when I followed their rules, it just went from there to the point that I was unable to shake the habit. :)

[Flybabe]

LOL, Chuck - certainly no worries :) I understand the deal, totally.

Hell, I'm hardly on AvCanada anymore anyways... maybe I'll hang here now :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This site is quite different flybabe as it is world wide in scope and thus there is less discussion of local problems.

Not to mention the fact that I spent the last decade of my career in Europe, Africa and South America so I am more comfortable in this culture. :)

You going to go back to air attack flying next year?

[Flybabe]

Likely, yes. I'm up for a type rating on the P2 but not really comfortable with the fact that I'm going to get one before a few of the other copilots I work with.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Conversely you should let the company decide who gets upgraded.

It is far better to have a rating you may not need than need a rating you can't afford. :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

When it comes to quality of content on an aviation forum one need look no further than the value of the posts by " Zipper Magnus " on Avcanada.

No wonder many of the people with something worth offering have left the site.

[clunckdriver]

Av Canada has become a mouthoiece for the following groups {1} Religious nuts, why else would a thread which said roughly "The little wheel should go on the tail where God meant it to be" be pulled? Dread to think what would happen to "If God meant the Army to fly he would make the sky brown!" {2} At least two of the posters work for an organisation which sells S/E turboprops, the subject of much discusion in Canada, any threads questioning the wisdom of this get pulled.{3} Two posters were pulled as the mods responded to complaints about their continued raging on TC, they are celibrating in TC these days as at least three TC employees were behind this, I dont think the mods understand "disinformation".The sad part is that some of the new blood at the top of TC was about to get to the bottom of these posts and was asking VERY awkward question of some of the TC employees named in thse posts, Av Canada has now silenced these disenting voices.{4} The site is in fact an American site, thus the PC culture which is chokeing the USA has now come to Canada, dont dare to use slang from my generation, any terms used must be up to date PC! Solution? Any one want to start a REAL Canadian web site?

[extreme P]

{3} Two posters were pulled as the mods responded to complaints about their continued raging on TC, they are celibrating in TC these days as at least three TC employees were behind this, I dont think the mods understand "disinformation".The sad part is that some of the new blood at the top of TC was about to get to the bottom of these posts and was asking VERY awkward question of some of the TC employees named in thse posts, Av Canada has now silenced these disenting voices.

If I understand correctly... the great conspiracy was finally about to be exposed and the guilty were to be dealt with due to internet forum posts? Just then the posts were removed and the guilty parties can breath a sigh of relief and go on with their evil ways? Sounds a bit like an after school special.

[clunckdriver]

Extreame, your understanding is right on, well done! Rather than an after school special however its closer to "how do we shut down this never ending thread thus preventing the new boy from meeting face to face with the posters", QED.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The truth is the exposure of certain people within TCCA who were and are still a disgrace to any so called democratic government was very embarrassing for those named.

There is no denying two facts.

These issues were read tens of thousands of times by people on a world wide read aviation forum.

Those exposed never once defended their actions.

We shall see if the new person in charge at TCCA is different.

[remote hook]

This honestly has to be one of the most pathetic threads I've ever seen.

I've lurked around Avcanada off and on for a while, not much there on rotary, and it is what it is. Take the good with the bad. Presumably you're all adults, grow up, it's like listening to a bunch of pre-schoolers.

I moderate a technical forum, and while in no way related to aviation, most of you wouldn't believe the **** that comes in. Even there.

There must be something about Canadian pilots, as this is the most juvenile forum on Pprune, and along with Vertical - which I do frequent - and Avcanada, I must say there's a disturbing set of common denominators/posters.

RH

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Sorry we don't live up to your standards remote hook, but thanks for taking the time to express your dissatisfaction.

Maybe some of us just never made it in aviation and are envious of those who are superior? :ok:

AAhh , I forgot something you can't be including me because I haven't been a Canadian pilot for a long time. :)

[Big Pistons Forever]

I had just about given up on Avcanada because so many threads got hijacked into personal rants, trolls, deliberately inflamatory posts, personal attacks, or just plane juvenile idiocy. I think the quality and usefullness of Avcanada has significantly increased since the mods started cracking down on posters who were abusing their privilages. The bottom line is Avcanada is like every other large group of humans, 5 % of the group will cause 90 % of the problems. I think it is entirely appropriate that mods insist on an good behavior on the part of posters and deal with the problem children.

[clunckdriver]

Big pistons, right now Av Canada has become a private site for one Mod to claim "inside information" about SMS and any other subject relating to TC, when in fact its all in the public domain , the self apointed experts have totally destroyed the credibility of the site, witness a recent talk show in which a pilot who landed on a taxiway was trashed by an Av Canada Mod who has never flown an aircraft and has no friggin clue what its lke to pop out at 200 feet on a dirty day, I have joined the many who have withdrawn from the site, a pity as it could be a great tool in flight safety.

[dhc2widow]

Comments removed.

[clunckdriver]

Widow, {1} OC holders in this area were briefed on SMS delay severall days before the "secret email", could well be that TC left hand and right hand are at it again. {2} Re the remarks about the poor sod who landed on a taxiway {but for TGOG there go all of us!} the remarks such as "he has a license" hardly take into acount some of the conditions,ie, apch lights US/not on,sun angle,distractions any of a zillion other things that can overload the guy at the pointy end. {3} Dont confuse critical coments with friendship, respect or sypathy, they are apples and oranges, what you have done is illustrate as to why many of the more qualified have left the site! All the best, Clunck.

[KAG]

I was told that there is only one way to be politically correct on avcanada, the mods one.

I have been reading this website for a while, and each time somebody desagrees with the mods on different subjects (SE, Boeing/Airbus, Safety...) the post is deleted. I am not interested, I prefer PPrune, as far as the avcanada' s posters/mods don' t come here.

[clunckdriver]

Well said Kag!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

It is really to bad that for that what ever reason so many experienced people in aviation no longer are part of Avcanada because the site used to a good place for the people in aviation to discuss things.

I know Joe and like him and I personally was never treated badly by the mods on that site....however I just ran out of the desire to post there because regardless of how beneficial a thread starts out the idiots ruin it.

Hopefully the site will do a 180 and all the old experienced posters will return and it will go back to being an aviation discussion site not a romper room for idiots.

One thing for sure by not posting there for a while no one can blame me for the adolescent content that so frequently evolves there.

[remote hook]

Are you guys seriously still at this?

Looks like this site has its share of jeuvies too. :zzz:

[Big Pistons Forever]

My 02.cents

I mostly post on Avcanada instructor forum. It is IMO significantly better than it used to be and is IMO now has significantly more usefull information than the instructor site on pprune. So far pretty much every time a thread on avcanada has started to spiral downhill it has been the posters, just as much as the moderators, who have redirected it onto more usefull course. I also like that the profanity and extremely rude comments have also greatly reduced.

[polyfiber]

Avcanada, to me, portrays a distorted picture of Canadian aviation to say the least. One group of posters would have you think that you are playing Russian roulette just flying anything smaller than a 737.

Any aviation accident, no matter how obvious that it was pilot error, the first party blamed is the company followed by the CP and on down the line. If you were to believe some of the comments one would have to think the average commercial pilot looses all his decision making skills and better judgment due to "lack of oversight" from TC.:hmm:

I think that this is part of the culture of PC thought that we are all "victims" of the "system" and are not really responsible for our own actions.

[DHC6tropics]

polyfiber...

You must have the luxury of working for a good company...or perhaps you are in the training department...maybe even management?

I too am lucky to work for a company that is truly dedicated to safety and having a SMS system that works...having said that, I don't think my company would be the way it is if it wasn't for a strong and active union.

I have some very close friends who are great pilots and great people but who haven't had the luck and timing required to land one of the few good long-term career jobs in Canada. The companies they work for look great on the surface...good planes, decent schedules, acceptable compensation...but when you look a little deeper, management is abusive and only pay lip-service to safety and SMS. The stories they tell are crazy. Yes, occasionally they have bent under pressure from management and done things they shouldn't have as professional pilots, but that is only because they have seen over and over again the threats and harassment that pilots who have stood up for their rights have received. Without a pilot union they know that there is absolutely no one that will stand up for them...and quitting a flying job due to abusive management is just not an option for some...I can only hope the industry picks up soon so they can move on to one of the few good companies.

Management all too often gets away with abusive and harassing behaviour because they know the industry is small. F/O's are desperate for an upgrade and captains don't want to burn a reference so they can try to get out of their s#it-hole company ASAP.

[polyfiber]

You hit the nail on the head when you said union:ok: Two accidents that stand out in my mind are the Malibu pulling its wings off in Alberta and the idiot who knowingly took off without enough fuel to make it into Winipeg.

One of Avcanada's posters was badmouthing the Malibu on a radio talk show when it was pretty obvious Piper had nothing to do with the accident.

People tried to play down the actions of the pilot who landed on a street in a city after running out of gas!

That's my rant for the year......have a Merry Xmas!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Are you suggesting that a union would have prevented that pilot from running out of fuel polyfiber?

If so then the root problem is a company culture of intimidation of crews to cut corners to make more money.

Is it your opinion that unions should take over oversight of the regulations and T.C. just stick to churning out paper make believe projects?

[ecnalubma]

Boy have I been away too long.
I am a moderator on the seemingly much meligned Avcanada site. It is interesting to me that people would rather come in here and desparage this site than to actually add anything constructive by way of pm or even a note to the webmaster.
I found avcanada by doing a google search, it was on the first page of the search. I bring this up as I had a son, who at the time was probably under age and interested in an aviation career. I was doing a bit of research into the prospects and general feel for the industry in terms of a career choice only to find a site that presents as legit filled with porn links. I'm no prude but honestly? A site supposedly associated with professionals and this is what I find. Kids can access this site! I complained and have been a mod ever since (careful what you complain about I guess is the lesson).
A lot of things have changed. As with must of these forums you have your focal minorities that seem to monopolize most threads, thread stealers and all round trouble makers. We do our best with what we have in the time we can allow keeping in mind that it is time donated to a site that runs on donations. The rules are clearly defined and for those of you who have had threads pulled, anytime I have done so it has been based on clearly difined rules being broken, I can't speak for anyone else, just me.
Now I see much time has past since this thread was started and though I fear rekindling the debate, I just wanted to defend myself as many who post of Avcanada know who I am. In a perfect world moderators would not be neccessary, our site is not perfect. I'm sure those that moderate on here would echo these sentiments.

[clunckdriver]

I still maintain that God wants the little wheel at the back of the aircraft! So there! {This sentiment shared by many of my age by the way} So sensor all you wish on Av Canada, but not here if you dont mind, the Brits have a far more developed sense of humour it seems, the fact that Av Canada is in fact an American site dooms it to being totally PC, pity, but then Canada is tied at the hip to tha USA these days, which is not all bad by the way, but when our media and webb sites come under their domination then its time to find another venue.Contact the Mods?, When I took exception to remarks made by a Mod, pointing out the unfairness of her post in regards to a pilot who landed of on the wrong runway, rather than defend her position she simply pulled the post, thus leaving the rebuttal hanging out on its own, Thats hardley the way discusions are meant to go, then to confuse friendship with the right to differ on a point destroys the whole point of having an aviation site!

[ecnalubma]

As I said, I can only speak for myself. Did you take your concerns up with the mod or run to this site to complain.

[clunckdriver]

I contacted you on Oct 23, still no answer, you, by your total lack of any response, have answered your own question, so please stay away from this site, thank you!

[ecnalubma]

I would defend myself by saying I just checked my PM's and I have none from you on any date yet alone on Oct. 23rd, but seeing as you have decided to discredit me one here with a total fabrication that I cannot disprove, I will leave you to your shallow victory.
I'm sure those Avcanada members that have PM'd me in the past would attest to the fact that I follow up on all messages I recieve.

[clunckdriver]

My "sent" log states that it was my 42nd PM sent, was sent 23oct 2010 at 1738 EST, have never had a PM not make it through cyber space before, so I put you last post up there with "the cheques in the mail".

[ecnalubma]

My opologies to clunckdriver. For some reason I thought that he ment to my pm at Avcanada not here. I have recieved only 1 other message on Pprune since registering in 2004 and as I don't get an email to tell me I recieved a pm I never thought to check it.
I wish I could answer your questions clunck but I can't.
As for going away, I will, from this thread, but I do enjoy some of the other stuff I see here and will be back to visit again. As you can see by my post count, I don't spend a lot of time here.

[CpnCrunch]

Sorry for dragging this thread up again, but it seemed the most appropriate place. Add me to the list of former avcanada posters. It's just getting ridiculous the number of threads that have disappeared, as well as general heavy-handed moderation. Oh, and I run a chat site and manage a bunch of moderators myself so I know the difficulties, but avcanada just seems to be ridiculous at the moment.

[Minorite invisible]

Same kind of censorship often goes on here. I had my posts deleted and I was even banned from PPrune for a period, some years ago.

The subject was flying troops into and out of Afghanistan. The British, US and Canadian troops all required that their troops be exclusively rotated in and out of Afghanistan on military aircraft that were fitted with missile protection (DAS). Other countries like the French, the Dutch, the Danes or the Germans did not have that requirement. Canada, which until 2007 had 5 A-310s with no DAS, never flew any of them into Afghanistan. They went as far as Dubai and changed to C-130s from there. It's fleet of Bombardier Challengers never did medevacs out of Afghanistan for the same reasons. They only used the protected Hercs, and later the C-17s.

I stated that several airlines flew commercially into Afghanistan quite safely, and that the Taliban had no AA missiles, that there had not been a single documented case of an AA missile fired at any aircraft since the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan (there still hasn't been any) and that I thought that this measure was in place to give the military transports the monopoly of flying all troops so that contracts would not be given out to cheaper commercial charters like British Airways. I gave examples of unprotected civilian aircraft that were flying inside of Afghanistan for NATO and of the UN airlines that also flew in and out, with no incidents. All of the information I provided was public information gleaned off the Web.

I was accused of putting the troops at risk and my posts and the replies they generated were taken down. I was banned from PPRune for x weeks........

Probably some British Military sent a message to a Mod requesting that I be gagged and he/she gladly obliged........

[North Shore]

Sorry for dragging this thread up again, but it seemed the most appropriate place. Add me to the list of former avcanada posters. It's just getting ridiculous the number of threads that have disappeared, as well as general heavy-handed moderation. Oh, and I run a chat site and manage a bunch of moderators myself so I know the difficulties, but avcanada just seems to be ridiculous at the moment.

Well, Crunch, if you think we are heavy-handed, then post what got you a 1 day suspension from AvCan on here, and see how long you last:rolleyes:

[treykule]

Well, I like AvCanada. So what if some threads get pulled?
The fact is that not everyone acts so nicely, and , it seems, some dont really understand simple civility anymore.

Yes it is a bit frustrating to see this or that thread get pulled, particularily when it brings one of the dark side companies into the light. But lets be honest here.. There is a lot of unfair comments made. Rude comments.
Pesonal slurs...Mods just doing their job...

Being 6000 miles away from home for nearly five years now, and its kind of nice to read what is there. Even if the main posterships is younger..

It has been said so many times. If you dont like it, dont go there. No need to trash a site because you dont happen to like it...

[J.O.]

I was accused of putting the troops at risk and my posts and the replies they generated were taken down. I was banned from PPRune for x weeks........


Gee, I can't imagine what could have possibly led them to make that decision ... :rolleyes:

[CpnCrunch]

Ah, so it was you who banned me for a 'racist' comment that wasn't racist in any way and didn't have the balls to actually reply to my PM via Sulako? I made a comment about the people who (according to a TC report) deliberately killed a pilot and 3 passengers while drunk. I made a comment basically saying they are drunks and not very nice people (not using those exact words :), along with the people launching the lawsuit.

So just because they are native and I was having a go at them (rightly so, IMO), I'm racist? The fact they were native didn't enter my mind when posting. Surely that makes you racist, does it not? Or is it just PC gone mad?

Also, there were a few other reasons for my rant here:

- thread about mid-air collision pulled when people started talking about CARs.

- thread about possible CAR violation by a certain company pulled by a moderator who works at that company.

[North Shore]

If you've got a PM for me, send it along, and we can hash this out in private. I didn't see the pm that you sent to Sully. I'm pretty sure that your 'ban' was a one day suspension.
Threads are pulled/moderated for several reasons, all of which you agreed to when you signed up here or on any other BB, including AvCan. If you can't abide by those conditions, then feel free not to post.

[CpnCrunch]

Ok, thanks for the reply. I talked to North Shore via PM and we sorted things out. I still think there is sometimes some over-moderation at avcanada, but the moderators are all decent people trying to make the forums a sane place and I respect them.

[lilflyboy262...2]

You've been brain washed cpn!!! Come back from the dark side!!! :}

[7Two7Driver]

...and the avcanada kiddies come here to ruin this site... great :ugh: