Solent CTA / SOU CTR IFR Clearance

[Finals19]

Hi guys,

For those in the know I would like a bit of advice. Having IR trained out of Bournemouth, I know that Solent Radar are very reluctant at the obvious times of day to give a clearance through the Southampton CTR. I am planning to fly into EGHH IFR. Departing Fairoaks, remaing below the LTMA and then climbing FL45 at GWC before turning westbound dct BIA.

My options are 1) no prefiled IFR plan (seeing as first portion of flight is outside CAS) and call for IFR clearance GWC-SOU-BIA with a hand off to Bournemouth Radar. LARS from Farnborough and then hope for a hand off to Solent Rad.

2) Prefile IFR all the way hoping that this would give Solent a heads up and a better chance of a clearance. That said, I fully expect vectors as opposed to as filed. Is it rather pointless filing IFR plans when not in class A?

Would be a Saturday morning around 1100hrs local.

Cheers.

[DC10RealMan]

You could call London Information and pass your details to them with an estimate for GWC and requested intentions and ask them to pass it on to Solent Radar as they have a direct phone line to Solent. Solent Radar will then have the details ready when you call on the R/T with your request, being pre-warned they may be more accomodating.

[TCAS FAN]

File an IFR flight plan, Solent will then receive it and be expecting you.

Recommend that you file 5000 FT (remaining below Class A airspace).

Call Farnborough, they are paid loads of money by CAA to provide service to aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Ask Farnborough for a handover to Solent. If they decline, call Solent at least 5 minutes before their CTA boundary.

From personal experience, Solent will do all they can to accomodate you.

Try to avoid crossing between 0730-0915 UTC, Solent get very busy.

[DFC]

Going from Fairoaks to Bournemouth why choose a route GWC, SAM, BIA which is mostly outside controlled airspace and requires a route through the Southampton traffic.

Why not route west initially talking to Farnborough and then route south towards bournemouth who can vector you to the ILS without ever getting in the way of solent.

If you do not have BRNAV then you can make use of OCK and CPT vors to get you in range of the BIA.

You have obvously recognied the problem and that is why you asked the question. For flights such as these (mostly outside controlled airspace), ask yourself would you route that way on a VFR flight - unlikely. Look at which way your would route VFR and then tweek it if required to get you on some VOR radials.

Even on a weekday, this route is better since you can get a service from Farnborough, Boscombe and Bournemouth.

For the flight plan - yes file one. Your IFR flight will be entering controlled airspace and the preferred method is for the flight plan to be filed before departure. One could argue that it is mandatory but that is a separate issue. Speaking generally, unless the IFR flight is 100% outside controlled airspace then always file a flight plan because you may find that the bit of controlled airspace you want to fly through on the day has a flow regulation and you are thus required to have a CTOT to depart.

When you receive your ACK message for the flight plan, make a note of the unique ID number assigned to the flight plan. Then if someone claims that they have not received a flight plan when they should you have the confirmation and can give them the ID number so that they can retreive the data from the system.

Don't forget that PPR and airport slots are a totally separate issue.

Regards,

DFC

[slowclimber]

I work in this area and agree that TCAS FAN and DFC have suggested the best two options, depending on your preference.

[anotherthing]

Call Farnborough, they are paid loads of money by CAA to provide service to aircraft outside controlled airspace.Unfortunately not true, it's a pittance and it is paid by a different governement body, not the CAA

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

....... and the service provided is entirely at the discretion of the controller wearing the headset and has zilch to do with how much money changes hands high up.

[India 99]

It has pretty much all been said . . . Great advice from DFC and others.

You have identified the problem . . . why go that way? . . . when I taught piloting skills it was . . Aviate > Navigate > Communicate.

You can also go places without (much) of the latter.

> Draw line on map . . (Chino graph, if no chino graph, use string)
> Plan route to avoid CAS where possible . . (in case you are unable to get a transit clearance bearing in mind you rarely get the chance to call everyone with the required notice on this sort of trip and they are likely to already have enough to deal with)
> Use the perspex to do the middle one and the first one . . it is a busy bit of airspace after all.

Or . . . file IFR . . Join CAS with ATC clearance and CTOT if required and Pay for the service ( with a 99.99999% probability of not hitting anything whilst using all those fancy dials with head in cockpit )

All the above is not intended to offend, sorry if it does so.

Of course, if you are only going to Bournemouth . . it is only about 80 St miles by road . . say 90 mins (unless the roads are like last weekend) (thorough preflights etc must take at least that) against 60 Nautical direct or 70 odd via GWC or indeed to the west avoiding those (Brilliant) chaps at Solent.

Happy hours aloft . . :)

[3miles]

Just to add to this.....

Solent airspace is the highest NATS infringed airspace in the country. So based on the good advice you have seen already posted, ensure you actually take all of it, in that whatever Plan A you go with, you actually have a Plan B to remain outside of controlled airspace. If you get airbourne with the sole intention of doing GWC-SAM-BIA and then dont get a joining clearance, make sure you fully prepared to route around or underneath.

As a matter of interest what a.c type was you planning on doing this in, you'll likely find that the route GWC-SAM-BIA will become more available the quicker the a.c you are in if you are IFR. Nothing worse than something having a ground speed of 60kts IFR trying to cross controlled airspace with everything whisitling around it at 250kts.

[DFC]

If you get airbourne with the sole intention of doing GWC-SAM-BIA and then dont get a joining clearance, make sure you fully prepared to route around or underneath.




Or hold in the published hold at GWC until the expect onward clearance time provided by ATC when the join is requested.

While not being very efficient, this pilot has chosen the published procedures that would take them to Bournemouth on an IFR flight plan i.e. a GWC departure from Fairoaks and then join the SAM1D arrival for Bournemouth.

That means they are a normal category flight inbound to an aerodrome within the Solent CTA and unless there is flow in operation they should not have much of a delay and there is no requirement on an IFR airways flight to have a plan B which keeps the aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Any problems regarding excess traffic would be handled via CTOT and flow regulation.

I can just imagine the Gulfstream pilots departing Farnborough on a GWC departure having a plan to do the flight outside controlled airspace!! :rolleyes:

The above does not change my recomendation previously regarding the best route to take.

Regards,

DFC

[3miles]

Or hold in the published hold at GWC until the expect onward clearance time provided by ATC when the join is requested.

While not being very efficient, this pilot has chosen the published procedures that would take them to Bournemouth on an IFR flight plan i.e. a GWC departure from Fairoaks and then join the SAM1D arrival for Bournemouth.

That means they are a normal category flight inbound to an aerodrome within the Solent CTA and unless there is flow in operation they should not have much of a delay and there is no requirement on an IFR airways flight to have a plan B which keeps the aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Any problems regarding excess traffic would be handled via CTOT and flow regulation.

I can just imagine the Gulfstream pilots departing Farnborough on a GWC departure having a plan to do the flight outside controlled airspace!! :rolleyes:

The above does not change my recomendation previously regarding the best route to take.


Sorry from my understanding of the post, the pilot had no intention of flying Airways, and only joining airspace at SAM IFR. I believe for the pilot to join at GWC this would require solent to gain permision from TC or the Pilot to request join with TC at GWC. So a join at SAM could result in a delay or initially request to remain outside due to inbound/outbound traffic from EGHI. They not going to stop all movements for an A/C that hasnt flown airways. So hence my point of recommending that an alternative plan is kept in mind in case of any delay, especially if the pilot in question is in something fairly quick, and doesnt want to orbit outside of controlled airspace. However i imagine, as the pilot quite rightly says, accepting vectors, or alternative levels will probably assist in gaining some form of IFR entry into the Solent CTA quicker.

DFC other advice is good, along with what others have posted. If you intend to fly the route wholly within the controlled airspace by joining at GWC then as pointed out you will be treated as normal, and subject to any flow or CTOT. But if you are remaining outside, and requesting an ADHOC join, you may get a delay if SOLENT are too busy to give you direct due other traffic at the time.

Either way Solent is the highest infringed airspace....VFR/IFR so the advice of good planning still remains, with a good alternative if you cant get an immediate clearance to enter.

[3miles]

As pointed out, they get paid next to nothing for being a LARS, the staffing and equipment needed to provide the Farnborough LARS cost far more than they receive in payment for the service. NATS funds it purely as a "Goodwill" to the GA and to try and help reduce the number of Infringements in and around the LTMA. Its viewed the money is worth spending against the cost of risk that infringements pose.

If it was money making...every unit in the country would provide the same!

[DFC]

I should of course point out that IFR Fairoaks departures to Bournemouth are required to route via HAZEL. ATC will not accept an IFR flight plan that goes direct to GWC or routes to the west initially.

-(FPL-GABCD-IG -PA34/L -S/S -EGTF1200 -N0140F070 HAZEL -EGHH0030 EGHI -)

Works fine

as does

-(FPL-GABCD-IG -PA34/L -S/S -EGTF1200 -N0140F070 HAZEL SAM1D -EGHH0030 EGHI -)


---------------

Either way Solent is the highest infringed airspace....VFR/IFR so the advice of good planning still remains, with a good alternative if you cant get an immediate clearance to enter.


In the case of VFR or IFR fligts with no flight plan or intending to remain outside you may have a point.

However, this is a different scenario and for the normal IFR flights, the decision if a flight can be completed is done at flight plan filing stage i.e. if the route is not acceptable to ATC then the FPL is rejected. i.e. if you file and receive an ACK then the proposed route is acceptable.

The question of ATC capacity at the time the flight will be in the airspace is handled via the flow system. i.e. if one expects to cross SAM at 1200 and there are too many flights already filed in that bit of airspace a CTOT will be issued.

Of course a joining clearance is required. But the acceptability of the route and ensuring that there is ATCO(s) capacity to handle the flight is done at European levels these days.

Therefore, aside from an incident / disaster, it is reasonable for an IFR flight with an ACK from their FPL and a CTOT (or no delay) to expect that provided they depart correctly and keep to the plan, their flight will proceed normally without excessive enroute or terminal holding.

If (with noting unusual happening) such a flight ended holding outside controlled airspace for a long time then it would be clear that something was wrong for example - the ATC capacity is declared at a higher level than the ATCO can provide.

To have it otherwise would result in among other things operators being unable to determine how much fuel is required for the flight.

Regards,

DFC

[TCAS FAN]

DFC

You can file a FPL at F070, get the ACK, but chances of getting a clearance from LTC (SW) at FL 70 via the TMA, into the face of Farnborough arrivals, via GWC are about zero. As I mentioned previously, file below the TMA, ie 5000 Ft, call Farnborough and request a handover to Solent.

[3miles]

DFC

I think you are looking at things too much in an ideal world, although all what you say in regard of Flight Planning, acceptable routes, CTOTS etc is all correct. The Majority of this applies to aircraft flying wholly within controlled airspace, and even then things can be changed after a flightplan is submitted and accepted. (aircraft can get re-routes as late as taxi out, or held enroute because of weather or issues at airfield, a sudden overload en-route, can suddenly mean a stop to all deps on a particular route, or the application of MDI/MIT which dont fit in with the CTOT system and are a dynamic flow application)

In the case where someone files a flightplan, and looks to join a CTA then yes they may still have a CTOT applied for all the reasons you explain, but when it actually comes to gaining a joining clearance on arrival at that CTA boundary, what is going on at that point for that particular controller, is what will determine what, how and if a joining clearance will be issued. No controller is dictated by the fact that someone has filed a flightplan means they will instantly give a joining clearance. Somewhere like the Solent CTA, where there may be an excessive amount of VFR, non planned IFR flights, or simply traffic just in the way at that point, could all result in no clearance being issued or the requested clearance. Although CTOTS are issued for the area, its not somewhere that is subject to regular flow and due to the dynamic nature of the operation there, any Flow restrictions that may be requested by the unit, may not come into force until its too late, i.e a/c already en route or operating outside of controlled airspace are still on there way, even if a rate as now been applied.

So in the case of the pilot here, he may call solent, having filed a flightplan, which of course will help as they will then have the details and help the controller decide quicker what is available, but the clearance that gets issued to get him enroute to BIA might not be GWC dct SAM, and probably not at the level requested. The controller will take all sorts of things into account, including aircraft type, as to the route in which they plan to get him across the CTA. and if at the time of the call the workload is such that they cant get back to him immediately they may tell him to stand by and remain outside, which would lead to the pilot either having to orbit, or start to plan a route around, or underneath the CTA.

A Flightplan is NOT a clearance to enter controlled airspace, given a squawk, a service outside again do NOT constitute any intention of the controller to allow that flight entry. Anybody that thinks filing a flightplan, even if they have an acknowledgment message, gives them the permission to enter controlled airspace is waiting to become the next statistic on the infringement list.

So I stand by my previous statement...ensure you have an alternative plan, or file to fly totally within controlled airspace, that way you will fit in within the realms completely of what you said regarding to routing and CTOTS. Because if it was the case otherwise, why would anyone file flightplans that route via airways when they could just file DCT and ensure they can get a joining clearance each time they pitched up at a Controlled airspace boundary.

The routes and suggestions that you suggest, are all good. But having a back up plan, being familar with the airspace are also necessary in case what you planned and what you get become two different things. Solent being solent though, I am sure they will do there upmost best to ensure the pilot gets the best, safest and most efficient route they can offer...in the best quoted words...."Subject to Traffic"

[DFC]

Because if it was the case otherwise, why would anyone file flightplans that route via airways when they could just file DCT and ensure they can get a joining clearance each time they pitched up at a Controlled airspace boundary.


I think that if you look around you will find that flights do "just file direct" when the system allows and they do get a joining clearance every time they pitch up at the airspace boundary. Perhaps you need to look at how flights from Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Oxford, Brize, Exeter, Plymouth, Newquay, Swansea, Gloucester, Filton, Biggin Hill, Coventry, Norwich, to name just a small few actually operate.

Even in this case, as I said earlier the route with least ATC delay would be west initially and then south. Thus the pilot will pitch up 15 miles north of the BIA and guess what - they will get a joining clearance. However, what is different is the risk level -

Route via controlled airspace - known traffic environment, appropriately equipped aircraft, qualified pilots and an ATC service

or

Route via class G - rely on self to avoid all the other IFR, (UK)VFR, Gliders, Military plus the odd ammateur rocket launch that can be in the same cloud at the same level as one finds onself - no separation, unknown environment, even a flight information service is not guaranteed

Operators file IFR within controlled airspace because that is where they get the protection afforded by a known traffic environment and an ATC service. In the UK the IFR pilot can choose to take advantage of those protections as early or as late in their IFR flight as possible.

This issue comes up again and again. It simply translates into the ATCO's doing the job can't do what the system says that they do. Operators have asked on several occasions for the UK system to better reflect what happens in practice. i.e. specify a different mandatory routing and/or limit the maximum level that can be filed.


and if at the time of the call the workload is such that they cant get back to him immediately they may tell him to stand by and remain outside, which would lead to the pilot either having to orbit, or start to plan a route around, or underneath the CTA.



This is IFR we are talking about - IFR flight usually don't "orbit" - they enter a hold. Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realise that they might not get a join - about the same number.

I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on, trying to use a Jeppesen low level chart to route around or below the Solent CTA. :eek:

No scrub that, I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on telling you where to go if you ever suggested such a crazy idea. :hmm:

"Remain outside expect onward clearance at (.....) time check (......)"

Works fine.

A request to avoid would be responded to with "request vectors".

Very hard to infringe when ATC is doing the navigating. :}

We all know that Farnborough are going to point the flight just to the west of PEPIS towards Romsey / stoney cross and solent / bournemouth will then vector it to the ILS.

However, nothing available to the competent pilot operating in the area for the first time suggests this is the likely outcome, that the flight will not be protected by CAS ASAP after departure or without indepth planning the level of risk that is present in what should be an AIAA.

Some would even question how Fairoaks - an aerodrome with no approach facilities, and no ATC can be an IFR airport.

Regards,

DFC

[Roffa]

DFC,

Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realise that they might not get a join - about the same number.

Some would even question how Fairoaks - an aerodrome with no approach facilities, and no ATC can be an IFR airport.

You ever thought about going into comedy script writing, I see a great career ahead of you :D

[anotherthing]

...You can file a FPL at F070, get the ACK, but chances of getting a clearance from LTC (SW) at FL 70...
FL70 is below the minimum level that is accepted in the LTMA for cruise.

[3miles]

I think that if you look around you will find that flights do "just file direct" when the system allows and they do get a joining clearance every time they pitch up at the airspace boundary. Perhaps you need to look at how flights from Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Oxford, Brize, Exeter, Plymouth, Newquay, Swansea, Gloucester, Filton, Biggin Hill, Coventry, Norwich, to name just a small few actually operate.

Perhaps I already do on a daily basis and perhaps I often see....No you cant enter controlled airspace..or I see an alternative joining clearance issued to what may have been filed.

Perhaps i even see flights point blank being refused the requested routing because of traffic at the time...not the time when the flightplan was filed.

ATC will always do there up most to give a joining clearance, but it will be subject to what will work with the present traffic, a routing say EGBO DCT HON CPT etc would unlikely be given a joining clearance routing direct HON in the climb, more likely told to remain to west of the BHAM CTA whilst climbing, and then once above the level of inbound and outbounds, given vectors, and a heading that gets it into controlled airspace towards CPT.

A routing out of EGBE going DTY EGNX might be flatly refused based on a/c type performance, and given headings to climb into controlled airspace.

A routing to route GWC-SAM- BIA again might be given a routing north/south of SAM, its level changed, or delayed before an entry clearance can be issued.

As i said before, A/C type will often have an effect just on how easy it is to give a join, Mr Texan in his G5 is fast, climbs well, and easy to get out the way either laterally or out climb other traffic, so more likely to get his join as planned, but just the same, ATC separate planes, so if Mr TEXAN decided to fly EGLF, GWC-SAM-BIA at 4000 ft and first call solent get his him heading towards the CTA boundary at 250kts, they may say remain outside, IFR flightplan actually now means they cant just point you at sam and take out the arrival and departure that is in the way at SAM. If he chooses to orbit, take up a Hold or route around outside thats his choice, he is outside of controlled airspace, the operative word there being controlled, as in he isnt being controlled! If the controller chooses to he may not provide him with any service, DS or TS, or even BS if he so wishes, and in fact at 3000ft outside controlled airspace anywhere near GWC towards SAM a BS is about all I would give in the height of the summer, because anything else would be physically impossible to provide with the amount of unknown traffic out there.

DFC, i have read some of other posts, and although you obviously have a vast wealth of Knowledge, you quite clearly don't also live in the real world. You seem to be of the nature that your pilots license gives you the right to do just about whatever you see fit, that when you fly you are the only a/c that should be considered and stuff the rest of the system, or other operators sharing that sky. ATC will always do their upmost best to provide a joining clearance, to an aircraft, whether it be IFR/VFR, filled a flightplan or is a free call. but under no circumstances do any of those things give that aircraft the right to do just what it wants because it has planned to do so.

This is IFR we are talking about - IFR flight usually don't "orbit" - they enter a hold. Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realize that they might not get a join - about the same number.

I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on, trying to use a Jeppesen low level chart to route around or below the Solent CTA. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

No scrub that, I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on telling you where to go if you ever suggested such a crazy idea. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

"Remain outside expect onward clearance at (.....) time check (......)"

Works fine.

A request to avoid would be responded to with "request vectors".

Very hard to infringe when ATC is doing the navigating.

you even here say on one hand that no pilot expects to be refused entry, and then go onto quote the r/t phrase "Remain outside ...." and that works fine? Hmmmm isn't that a refusal to enter controlled airspace?

In the case of MR Texan here, his entry clearance is formulated pretty much on the ground, co-ordinated by EGLF and TC at that point, a refusal actually may even still occur, at that point with a delay to holding it on the ground for a couple of minutes, the case we are talking about here is Solent giving join to something they had no control over previoulsy.

Now lets say me sitting there at solent says "Remain Outside controlled airspace" to Mr G5.....and I say onward clearance is 5 mins....identify MR G5 and tell him due controller workload he is under a Basic Service, or even maybe nicely offer a reduced Traffic Service, tell him about the multiple Primary only contacts that his TCAS cant see all milling around out there. Do you think MR G5 is going to take up a nice hold at GWC, for the next 5 mins, (a time that he'd actually probably have made BIA by) or think sod that, I'll plan a alternative route, down along the south coast under the CTA, and get entry along there or direct with bmth? or be happy to accept an alternative route that I may offer? Or will he blindly insist that GWC-SAM at 4000ft is all he can accept because thats what he has filed!

A request for vectors might also be responded with...."Basic service....suggest heading north south or whatever but UNABLE to provide vectors, cus guess what you are outside of controlled airspace, not under a radar service, and I cant vector you around all those unknown contacts!

Dont get me wrong in this example its unlikely that entry will be refused...but as always you have drifted away and use ridiculous examples to argue your point rather than keeping it to what the original post was about...a bit like the rubbish you wrote on the Weather avoiding posts. But perhaps thats the answer again, we could do it all procedural and put everyone on radials again!

Its quite simple....fly inside of controlled airspace, to get the service guaranteed, fly outside...you may get a service, you may get a join, hey it may even be the join you planned for, but then again you may get none, or only part of it.

Your IFR flightplan is information, and a request of intent....it isn't a clearance and it isn't a right to join any controlled airspace exactly as you plan!

DFC i strongly suggest you visit some ATC a bit more often, and lose the attitude of that you are the only pilot in the sky, become part of the system, work with it and realize that everyone else in it trys to make it all work nicely, but it doesn't always go to plan, but by working with it everyone gets along quite nicely rather than your attitude that what you want is the only possible solution....otherwise, I'm likely to be seeing your report on my desk one day.

[Roffa]

3miles, don't let yourself get sucked into DFC's reality, it's different to the one you and I live/work in.

[DFC]

Roffa,

You are of course correct - it is a joke - not a single IFR flight departing Farnborough expects to be refused entry to the ATS structure and not a single one will have planned to hold somewhere outside. At best you are going to have some extra low level traffic over the channel.

Fairoaks is designated by the UK authorities as an IFR airport. It has no IFR facilities - ATC, airspace, approach procedures.
---------

anotherthing,

FL70 is below the minimum level that is accepted in the LTMA for cruise.


Fairoaks is one of the LTMA airports. The overflight level restriction does not apply.

Of course you may be able to explain why you would prefer a flight from Fairoaks to HAZEL to climb to FL90 rather than FL70 (or any lower level)?

---------

3Miles,


you even here say on one hand that no pilot expects to be refused entry, and then go onto quote the r/t phrase "Remain outside ...." and that works fine? Hmmmm isn't that a refusal to enter controlled airspace?



I have to correct your readback of what I said. Most importantly I included the required Expect Onward Clearance time...

It is not a refusal of entry. It is telling the pilot that they can not enter now but they can "expect" their clearance at the specified time. Therefore the flight holds until the specified time and has a reasonable expectation that they will receive the clearance.

Every pilot when told nothing more than "remain outside" should respone with "request onward clearance time". ATC are required to provide it. Just like an EAT it is not optional and has a number of important consequences for both ATC and the pilot.

Its quite simple....fly inside of controlled airspace, to get the service guaranteed, fly outside...you may get a service, you may get a join, hey it may even be the join you planned for, but then again you may get none, or only part of it.


No problem - provide controlled airspace (Class E is suficient) round Farnborough etc so that IFR flights departing from IFR airports can remain in controlled airspace from the runway. Otherwise, explain how a Farnborough clutch departure can get airborne and remain within controlled airspace.

I think that you should contact the safety people at TC. Ask them about their experience of flights joining controlled airspace who were kept below and who subsequently had an RA. Ask them what their policy is now about getting such flights into controlled airspace ASAP and why they will not put such flights at risk by someone in the real world saying

If the controller chooses to he may not provide him with any service, DS or TS, or even BS if he so wishes, and in fact at 3000ft outside controlled airspace anywhere near GWC towards SAM a BS is about all I would give in the height of the summer, because anything else would be physically impossible to provide with the amount of unknown traffic out there.


My recomendation - IFR-IMC - always ask for DS. Even if it is refused, when the RA happens the report is better to include the phrase "I asked for DS but it was refused". --- It is the pilot's version of "remain outside controlled airspace" :D

Finally one must wonder why not a single controller who works in the airspace concerned recognised that the answer to the original question is that such flights must route via HAZEL?

Regards,

DFC

[3miles]

Roffa

you are right, he's insane.

I give up he quiet clearly is a danger to all those who work or operate within the UK airspace. He is also gives Pilots a bad name by his insane ramblings.

All I hope is that he doesn't fly on or near anything I am ever in. and I don't ever have the displeasure of having to talk to him on the RT.

I strongly suggest DFC that you yourself get a better grasp of the real world of aviation, because your present attitude, and now also your complete lack of appreciation for how your lovely book answer procedures, you like to quote, actually operate in the real world, all show that what I said before about your knowledge is in fact wrong, you really do not have a clue. You if its not already occurred are an accident or incident waiting to happen.

I shan't bother responding to anymore of your posts, purely on the basis that you really don't benefit any discussion at all, you have no ability to think past the end of your own cockpit, or some book answer. Your closed minded approach is unhelpful to anyone, I'm all for a good discussion, and think its good to see multiple ideas thrown on the table to hopefully gain some better understanding. But quite simply unless we all disengage our brains, throw away all our experience and knowledge of how ATC actually works, and accept that you as a pilot understand the complete works of every part of the UK airspace, CAA rules, procedures, MATS pt 1, and all the other ramblings you quote, nobody will ever agree with you.

Safe Flying...look forward to seeing your report.

just one final note for you before I go,that RA you were talking about...perhaps if you get the chance to pop into solent ATC one sunny Sunday afternoon and take a look at their radar screen to have a look at all the 7000 codes you worry about having RA's against because the controller as given you a BS or TS, you'll be surprised to actually see that in fact you will be grateful for the RA, because more than 50% of the contacts on the controllers screen will be primary only and your lovely TCAS I'm afraid doesn't see them...of course we could plaster the UK with controlled airspace just for you, although those 50% of primary contacts that are happily doing their own thing outside of controlled airspace who don't have a functioning transponder or even in some cases an RT license, that don't want to be controlled, might not be particularly happy with that suggestion, but hey i forgot again, you the only pilot flying that we need to worry about.

[DFC]

3 Miles,

The only toy thing that you did not throw out of your pram was the "Solent is not a LARS unit" ;)

Did you ever think that the reason why pilot's views of ATC are different from yours is that pilots experience a wide variety of ATC providers every working day.

Who is in a better position to suggest how it should be done - the person who has seen 10 different ways of doing it (some good some bad) or the person who has only ever experienced doing it one way?

If you work as an ATCO at Southampton (or other NATS unit) then you will have been told by your company not to delay joining IFR flights. Perhaps you don't agree with being told that but company policy is very clear and based on safety.

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

I think that you should contact the safety people at TC. Ask them about their experience of flights joining controlled airspace who were kept below and who subsequently had an RA. Ask them what their policy is now about getting such flights into controlled airspace ASAP and why they will not put such flights at risk by someone in the real world saying

Don't know who you have been talking to at TC - but it is not policy, new or not. It has always been best practice to get traffic INCAS ASAP, but what do you want us to do? Make phone calls to EGLL etc cancelling free-flow on their SLOTted flights so that we can give immediate clearance to an aircraft from an airfield lying OUTCAS?

If you work as an ATCO at Southampton (or other NATS unit) then you will have been told by your company not to delay joining IFR flights.Again, not true. Don't know who you have been talking to, but they are feeding you some real porkers.

As you are well aware, DFC, Class A airspace is a known traffic environment. We delay entry into it for A/C OUTCAS because entry at a particular time would mean a confliction with the known traffic. We all know that there is unknown traffic OUTCAS that may also be causing a confliction, but as it is unknown i.e. intentions unknown, there is nothing we can do about it. We, at TC, seeing as you have used TC as an example work in a known traffic environment... end of story. We separate known traffic, we don't have time, or the equipment, to separate from unknown traffic OUTCAS.

Any aircraft speaking to an Area TC Controller will be given BS at the best... it is policy to give nothing more.

The very fact that a lot of time it takes 5-10 minutes for the aircraft in question to get airborne after we have been given notification means cancelling free-flow would not work.

If a pilot wishes to take off from an airport OUTCAS cannot guarantee remaining VMC whilst remaining clear, then it is his or her lookout (sic). Not ideal but until the likes of Fairoaks and more importantly, Farnborough are afforded Classified Airspace protection, that is the way it is going to be. How much fun will that be if Farnborough get to double their passeneger numbers as they are hoping to do??


You want it to run smoothly? Then make the whole of the LTMA from surface to upper level boundary Class A. Most ATCOs who don't fly privately would welcome that. Most ATCOs who fly privately would acknowledge it would make our job easier and ultimately the whole process safer if we did that.

The GA community might have something to say about it though...

[Roffa]

DFC,

Who is in a better position to suggest how it should be done - the person who has seen 10 different ways of doing it (some good some bad) or the person who has only ever experienced doing it one way?


In your case would that be VATSIM, IVAO, some other PC based flight sim/ATC programme?

[anotherthing]

Every pilot when told nothing more than "remain outside" should respone with "request onward clearance time". ATC are required to provide it. Just like an EAT it is not optional and has a number of important consequences for both ATC and the pilot
DFC, you really need to come and see how ATC works, for real, not in simulators.

Sure whenever I tell you to Remain OUTCAS is could give you an OCT, but I will give you one that is 30 or 30 minutes away, because I know that I will be able to fulfill that obligation.

What I could not, and therefore would not do, is try to give you one with 'accuracy' - free-flow from the numerous TMA airports means that you get your clearance as and when we can fit you in - when you have a departure screen full of pending departures that are taxying, it is not always safe, or prudent, to give clearance to some crappy little aircraft tha climbs and flies ridiculously slowly.

You will get your clearance, but when I (who has the full picure, not some TCAS induced supposition) deem it to be safe. If you are a jet with good climb performance, you will get that clearance quicker because using my skill as an ATCO I know what will work. All your talk about ATCOs who only do it one way is utter tosh - the reason they are ATCOs is because of flexibility and their ability to change practices depending on numerous different scenarios.

DFC, please visit an ATC unit and start some dialogue - you will learn something.

[DFC]

but until the likes of Fairoaks and more importantly, Farnborough are afforded Classified Airspace protection


Now there is something that we agree on. However, while you seem to only think in terms of Class A, most pilots will have experience of every airspace class and based on that experience, it is clear that Class E would be the best solution in this case.

I was not talking about experience of individual ATCO performances but the system as a whole.

As for the Expect onward clearance time - Sure no problem - give an EOC time an hour away from the ETA at the fix. Then sit back and wait for the "we can hold until (..time...) before diverting."

We ask for DS not because we think that TC will always provide it but because a) our ops manual requires it and b) any subsequent investiagtion which dwells on the issue will revolve round the refusal of the service rather than the fact that it was never asked for.

However, that is irrelevant with Farnborough clutch departures since one would reasonably expect that a flight being held outside with an EOC time 30 mnutes away would be working Farnborough who can and will provide a DS rather than being limited to a BS with TC.

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

However, that is irrelevant with Farnborough clutch departures since one would reasonably expect that a flight being held outside with an EOC time 30 mnutes away would be working Farnborough who can and will provide a DS rather than being limited to a BS with TC.
Again, not how it works. May I respectfully suggest you visit either TC or Farnborough ATC? Both paties (pilot and ATC) will benefit from such visits but it will show you how LF clutch departures are handled.

LF calls TC and speaks to the coordinator for departure approval (not departure release, but approval, as release implies a IFR service from TC from th eoutset and management deem that to be too dodgy). No OCT is given and no indication of when you will be given joining clearance is passed - approval means merely that looking at current workload, the controller can handle an extra flight (taking into account the joining fix, aircraft type etc for complexity issues), at the time of the phone call and in the immediate future.

The aircraft gets airborne and subject to Farnborough traffic is given a climb which will keep it clear of CAS.

90% of the time the aircraft will be instructed to remain clear and handed over to TC for joining clearance. Fanborough will do this when the aircraft is clear of immediate confliction.

About 10% of the time, if there are too many conflictors, LF will call for higher to get you above traffic, possibly into CAS. Oftne this will just be 5000' under a Heathrow or Gatwick departue, so you could pop into then back out of CAS.

TC will give you further clearance as and when it can, sometimes you will be waiting a good 5 or 1o minutes especially towards the Hazel/GWC area as this is quite a busy area for TC/LF/HI.

LF departues via CPT tend to work better as there is more flexibility with airspace to the south of CPT, if you were to be put on a westerly heading (for example) for join.

The real problem is for training flights from Oxford to Bournemouth (for example). They tend to be poor performers and getting clearance to join at CPT at even FL70 can be tricky.

The bottom line is, Farnborough will not hold onto you under a DS until TC can give you joining clearance - they will hold onto you until they deem you to be free of confliction... what happens betwen then and joining clearacne from TC is the sticky bit, as far as you, the pilot are concerned.

Needless to say, if you are in an aircraft with decent performance, you will get clearance sooner, as it is easier to integrate you with the other traffic.

[DFC]

anotherthing,

You can not give an "Expect Onward Clearance Time" to an aircraft that is not airborne. Once airborne, a hold or delay in giving an joining clearance has to include an expect onward clearane time.

You have given a good basic description of what currently happens but nothing new. Indeed and I must admit that I have never got even close to GWC without being in CAS.

Please refresh what happens when an aircraft which has called has a comms failure before the joining clearance can be issued.

In the absence of an expect onward clearance time watching that high performer set 7600 and start climbing at 4000ft per minute towards FL450 along the flight planned route might leave you wishing you had complied with the requirement to issue an EOC or that the 7600 would only climb at 500ft per minute, 100Kt to 6000ft. :ok:

No scrub that - just watching the flight climb into the base of controlled airspace in response to an RA might get your heart pumping a bit faster - especially since the reason why the flight was not climbed by you into CAS is usually because the level above the base is occupied!! :)

Regards,

DFC

[anotherthing]

DFC,

as you have not been given an airways joining clearance, you would be in very hot water if you did the above.

The clearance you would have had would have been remain OUTCAS.

[DFC]

No pilot will ever get into hot water for complying with an RA. ATC may be asked what (if anything) they could have done to prevent the RA happening in the first place.

The comms failure procedures depend on the flight being either VMC or IMC. If IMC, then follow the procedures to destination.

That is why many other countries require flights departing from VFR aerodromes to remain VFR until the IFR clearance is received. If they get a comms failure before they get the clearance then the VMC procedure applies.

Unfortunately, in the UK many VFR aerodromes such as Fairoaks are designated as IFR aerodromes and flights can depart IFR in IMC. Quite ironic that a place like Fairoaks can have IFR arrivals but can not have instrument approach procedures unless there is ATC. They can however have aircraft departing IFR into IMC at 50ft, 30 seconds apart with the faster one behind. Safe?

Even MATS1 makes it clear what is going to happen when the IFR flight you are talking to has a comms failure;

Receipt of flight plan data does not constitute a clearance, except that when ATC has acknowledged receipt of the information from an aircraft in flight and radio failure occurs before a clearance can be transmitted, the aircraft may be expected to proceed in accordance with the flight plan. Aircraft should be given a clearance in reply to an in-flight request, but if this is not possible the aircraft are to be advised to remain outside controlled airspace, when to expect clearance and given a time check.

If you read the above, you will also see that you do not give a clearance to aircraft to remain outside controlled airspace - you "advise" them to do so.

The situation is not ideal by a long way for both ATC and the operators. We have requsted more appropriate airspace and procedures. Not nice but I think that there will eventually be a "we told you so" situation and then things might change.

Regards,

DFC

[Roffa]

DFC,

Go look in the AIP and read what it says about (not) entering CAS if you haven't yet received a specific joining clearance.

As for an RA, it should be a vertical maneuver of a few hundred feet, which is fine and if it may slightly infringe CAS before returning to previous level that's no big issue. It's not a climb to flight level nosebleed and continuance en-route. Don't consider it a 'safety reason' for entering or continuing either else what are you doing operating on your PC sim from an airfield outside CAS in the first place? You want max safety and protection, don't fly in Indian Country.

Sorry.

[DFC]

Go look in the AIP and read what it says about (not) entering CAS if you haven't yet received a specific joining clearance.



I am very much aware of what is says;

Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

Note that the word "should" is used.

A G5 departs Farnborough for say Rome with the weather RVR400 OVC001 and has a commsa failure before they get the clearance to join.

Give me a safe option for the flight that does not involve controlled airspace and that you would expect the Australian crew to be familiar with.

Even bumbling round low level to somewhere like Manston or dodging everything all the way to Exeter would in most people's mind be more dangerous than doing what ATC should expect when they see the 7600. i.e. the standard international communications failure procedure and operating in accordance with the current flight plan.

At least with Farnborough, you will have apre-note of the departure. Imagine something departing from a VFR airfield further away and you don't have the details. First you know is when that 7600 which has suddenly appeared crosses the boundary line in the climb to their cruise level (because the 7 minutes is up).

You can take it that if I departed Farnborough (or Fairoaks or elsewhere) and had a comms failure in IMC before you could give me the clearance I would not be faffing about low level in crap weather trying to drag out the jeppesens and find an aerodrome with suitable facilities which is not in controlled airspace. I would be doing the standard IMC procedure and yes, I will enter controlled airspace. The simple reason is because I deem that to be the more safe of the two options.

Until there is suitable airspace and procedures, the risk of the unexpected radio fail joiner will continue.

[kats-I]

Finals19

Who'd have thought a little question like that would have given such a debate...bet you wished you hadn't asked now! :confused::)

Happy flying whichever route you decide on.

[Roffa]

DFC,

Anyone can always come up with convoluted and remote chance scenarios to support their argument, doesn't mean they're necessarily correct though. When you do (regularly) I'm afraid it just makes me further convinced about your detachment from reality.

[anotherthing]

DFC, your example is very poor. You would be somewhere between Farnborough and GWC, chances are you've been transferred from LF to TC.

Most likely the comms failure would come on point of changing frequency (supposition based on my extensive time flying professionally in previous career).

You will be on an allocated squawk with your callsign displaying. LF, TC and En-route will know who you are. You realise you have suffered RTF so you should squawk 7600.

We still hold your callsign and ident but now know you have suffered RTF.

Now the book might say that you continue as Flight Planned in the event of RTF, but you have not yet been cleared INCAS. Your clearance limit is effectively to remain OUTCAS.


Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

Now where is the flight safety implication in a simple RTF?? There is not a huge one. Being 15 miles from Farnborough, with LF and TC knowing exactly who you are, a return to LF would be what I would consider more reasonable to do, instead of flying all the way over the continent, which entails entering CAS when you have not been cleared.

This is especially pertinent because you have just dfeparted LF, know the airfield, know what the weather is, know that they have you identified etc...


The quote above that you have used is not a free pass to enter CAS to join your FP route citing safety reasons, it is there to cover times when, for example a TCAS RA Climb, you have to enter CAS without clearance in order to ensure aircraft safety.

If you think it is acceptable that upon suffering RTF before GWC, you enter CAS without clearance and fly all the way to your destination without RT, then you need to get a grip on reality. Think about how much disruption your flight will cause

If for no other reason think 'security'.

Then think about 'common sense'. :ugh:

[DFC]

anotherthing,

I am surprised that with your "extensive time flying professionally in previous career" you do not realise that as I described in my post, a departure in weather that is below arrival minima can not return to the aerodrome of departure.

Perhaps you think that flights should be limited to departure minima which are equal to or above arrival minima? - A serious question in relation to aerodromes OCAS and VFR aerodromes in particular!!

The "security" issue you use is also rubbish. Aircraft interceptions do happen. Mostly for "sleeping radios" or where the pilot is blisfully unaware that they are out of range of the ATC unit that they are tuned to and the transponder is not set to comms fail.

If the UK government wishes to provide some assistance in the form of an aircraft that can guide me in my comms failure situation to a safe landing then I have no problems with that. Just don't expect me to sit at GWC flying triangles to try and get one!!

-------------

Perhaps, we should ask Finals19 what they would do in the following scenario;

They depart Fairoaks, 1000 ceiling and 1800m visibility. The weather is the same over all of the UK.

When level at 2400ft in IMC, they experience a communications failure.

Based on a routing to the west and then south (remaining outsie controlled airspace until the Solent CTA boundary north of BIA) to Bournemouth what would they do?

Based on a filed flight plan to fly the standard outbound route and join at HAZEL (4000ft to make it easy) what would they do?

I bet that if you did a survey of crews who use Farnborough, aside from a few operators with lots of local knowledge, the comms failure scenario would result in an entry into controlled airspace. Furthermore, many crews would not realise that they are in class G and don't have a continuous ATC service from the moment they call for start.

As a pilot with "extensive time flying professionally in previous career"which of the following is less dangerous for a public transport operation;

1. Having no communications, flying in airspace where there is a lot of traffic IFR and VFR with no equipment requirements and most not receiving an ATS while trying to figure out where there is an aerodrome at which you can make an instrument approach in IMC but you can't be sure if that proceure will be available or if ATC will be available of that there will not be other IFR flights holding and following that procedure at the same time as you.

or

2. Fly in airspace that is a known traffic environment and covered by ATC radar surveilance. All traffic will have the required equipment and will be not only deconflicted from you but also told about your situation. The flight proceeds according to what was planned to an aerodrome that had been checked in advance for performance, NOTAMs, availability of safety services and appropriate weather.

[anotherthing]

If you re-read your post, it infers that the weather given is at Rome. Admittedley rather a strange inclusion if it is read literally, but then again you were using a 'clutching at straws' example.

Poor grammatical structure methinks.

You cannot legislate for every eventuality, that's why ATCOs and Pilots get paid good money - to use common sense to achieve a safe outing.

Blindly entering CAS without a clearance because you have had an RT fail is not common sense. Neither is interpreting rules to suit your flight i.e. the comment about indavertant entry INCAS due to safety reasons.

Furthermore, many crews would not realise that they are in class G and don't have a continuous ATC service from the moment they call for start.
That constitutes poor planning and preparation in my book. The most simple thing to do in aviation is to plan. There is no excuse for not doing so, and not knowing the airspace you will be operating in is extremely shoddy.

[gijoe]

Anyway....thank you Solent workers for letting me through whenever it is not too busy and for being generally very helpful. :ok:

It is very obvious why it is the most infringed area in the UK.

What was helo Tango Papa 1 doing on task that took him 1.5nm inside near Winchester at about 1600L yesterday?

(And this is for my own education and not for any other untoward reason)

G

[bookworm]

Now the book might say that you continue as Flight Planned in the event of RTF, but you have not yet been cleared INCAS. Your clearance limit is effectively to remain OUTCAS.
...
The quote above that you have used is not a free pass to enter CAS to join your FP route citing safety reasons


Actually, it doesn't have to be.

AIP ENR 1.1 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/enr/EG_ENR_1_1_en.pdf)
4.2.3 Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC)
4.2.3.1 A VFR flight experiencing communication failure shall:
When VMC can be maintained, the pilot should set transponder on Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C and land at the nearest
suitable aerodrome. Pilots should take account of visual landing aids and keep watch for instructions as may be issued by
visual signals from the ground. The pilot should report arrival to the appropriate ATC unit as soon as possible.
When VMC cannot be maintained, the pilot should adopt the procedures for IMC detailed below.
4.2.3.2 Subject to the provisions of paragraph 4.2.2.3, an IFR flight experiencing communication failure in VMC shall:
When VMC can be maintained, the pilot should set transponder to Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C and land at the nearest
suitable aerodrome. Pilots should take account of visual landing aids and keep watch for instructions as may be issued by
visual signals from the ground. The pilot should report arrival to the appropriate ATC unit as soon as possible. If it does not
appear feasible to continue the flight in VMC, or if it would be inappropriate to follow this procedure, the pilot should adopt
the procedures for flights in IMC detailed below.
Note: Pilots already in receipt of an ATC clearance may enter controlled airspace and follow the procedures referred to
above. Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory
airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.

4.2.4 Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC)
4.2.4.1 A flight experiencing communication failure in IMC shall:
(a) Operate secondary radar transponder on Mode A, Code 7600 with Mode C.
(b) (i) Maintain, for a period of 7 minutes, the current speed and last assigned level or minimum safe altitude, if this higher.
The period of seven minutes begins when the transponder is set to 7600 and this should be done as soon as the pilot
has detected communications failure.
...

Note that the issue of a clearance is only relevant in VMC, as a note to 4.2.3.2. In IMC, the standard procedure in 4.2.4 is to be followed whether or not a clearance has been received.

(I know, I know, it's distasteful to give a troll the kiss of life... ;))

[DFC]

Note that the issue of a clearance is only relevant in VMC, as a note to 4.2.3.2. In IMC, the standard procedure in 4.2.4 is to be followed whether or not a clearance has been received.



As I said previously, that is why most other countries require flights departing from VFR airfields to remain VFR until they obtain an IFR clearance i.e. until the IFR clearance is given then the VMC procedure applies.

[Jumbo Driver]

... and the Note to 4.2.3.2 in ENR 1.1.3 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/enr/EG_ENR_1_1_en.pdf) reads as follows:

Note: Pilots already in receipt of an ATC clearance may enter controlled airspace and follow the procedures referred to above. Those flights, that have not received an ATC clearance, should not enter controlled or advisory airspace unless an overriding safety reason compels entry.
Apart from this, there is nothing in ENR 1.1 (as far as I can see) that actually permits entry to CAS without a clearance in a communication failure situation.

JD
:)