Solent CTA / SOU CTR IFR Clearance

[Finals19]

Hi guys,

For those in the know I would like a bit of advice. Having IR trained out of Bournemouth, I know that Solent Radar are very reluctant at the obvious times of day to give a clearance through the Southampton CTR. I am planning to fly into EGHH IFR. Departing Fairoaks, remaing below the LTMA and then climbing FL45 at GWC before turning westbound dct BIA.

My options are 1) no prefiled IFR plan (seeing as first portion of flight is outside CAS) and call for IFR clearance GWC-SOU-BIA with a hand off to Bournemouth Radar. LARS from Farnborough and then hope for a hand off to Solent Rad.

2) Prefile IFR all the way hoping that this would give Solent a heads up and a better chance of a clearance. That said, I fully expect vectors as opposed to as filed. Is it rather pointless filing IFR plans when not in class A?

Would be a Saturday morning around 1100hrs local.

Cheers.

[DC10RealMan]

You could call London Information and pass your details to them with an estimate for GWC and requested intentions and ask them to pass it on to Solent Radar as they have a direct phone line to Solent. Solent Radar will then have the details ready when you call on the R/T with your request, being pre-warned they may be more accomodating.

[TCAS FAN]

File an IFR flight plan, Solent will then receive it and be expecting you.

Recommend that you file 5000 FT (remaining below Class A airspace).

Call Farnborough, they are paid loads of money by CAA to provide service to aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Ask Farnborough for a handover to Solent. If they decline, call Solent at least 5 minutes before their CTA boundary.

From personal experience, Solent will do all they can to accomodate you.

Try to avoid crossing between 0730-0915 UTC, Solent get very busy.

[DFC]

Going from Fairoaks to Bournemouth why choose a route GWC, SAM, BIA which is mostly outside controlled airspace and requires a route through the Southampton traffic.

Why not route west initially talking to Farnborough and then route south towards bournemouth who can vector you to the ILS without ever getting in the way of solent.

If you do not have BRNAV then you can make use of OCK and CPT vors to get you in range of the BIA.

You have obvously recognied the problem and that is why you asked the question. For flights such as these (mostly outside controlled airspace), ask yourself would you route that way on a VFR flight - unlikely. Look at which way your would route VFR and then tweek it if required to get you on some VOR radials.

Even on a weekday, this route is better since you can get a service from Farnborough, Boscombe and Bournemouth.

For the flight plan - yes file one. Your IFR flight will be entering controlled airspace and the preferred method is for the flight plan to be filed before departure. One could argue that it is mandatory but that is a separate issue. Speaking generally, unless the IFR flight is 100% outside controlled airspace then always file a flight plan because you may find that the bit of controlled airspace you want to fly through on the day has a flow regulation and you are thus required to have a CTOT to depart.

When you receive your ACK message for the flight plan, make a note of the unique ID number assigned to the flight plan. Then if someone claims that they have not received a flight plan when they should you have the confirmation and can give them the ID number so that they can retreive the data from the system.

Don't forget that PPR and airport slots are a totally separate issue.

Regards,

DFC

[slowclimber]

I work in this area and agree that TCAS FAN and DFC have suggested the best two options, depending on your preference.

[anotherthing]

Call Farnborough, they are paid loads of money by CAA to provide service to aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Unfortunately not true, it's a pittance and it is paid by a different governement body, not the CAA

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

....... and the service provided is entirely at the discretion of the controller wearing the headset and has zilch to do with how much money changes hands high up.

[India 99]

It has pretty much all been said . . . Great advice from DFC and others.

You have identified the problem . . . why go that way? . . . when I taught piloting skills it was . . Aviate > Navigate > Communicate.

You can also go places without (much) of the latter.

> Draw line on map . . (Chino graph, if no chino graph, use string)
> Plan route to avoid CAS where possible . . (in case you are unable to get a transit clearance bearing in mind you rarely get the chance to call everyone with the required notice on this sort of trip and they are likely to already have enough to deal with)
> Use the perspex to do the middle one and the first one . . it is a busy bit of airspace after all.

Or . . . file IFR . . Join CAS with ATC clearance and CTOT if required and Pay for the service ( with a 99.99999% probability of not hitting anything whilst using all those fancy dials with head in cockpit )

All the above is not intended to offend, sorry if it does so.

Of course, if you are only going to Bournemouth . . it is only about 80 St miles by road . . say 90 mins (unless the roads are like last weekend) (thorough preflights etc must take at least that) against 60 Nautical direct or 70 odd via GWC or indeed to the west avoiding those (Brilliant) chaps at Solent.

Happy hours aloft . .

[3miles]

Just to add to this.....

Solent airspace is the highest NATS infringed airspace in the country. So based on the good advice you have seen already posted, ensure you actually take all of it, in that whatever Plan A you go with, you actually have a Plan B to remain outside of controlled airspace. If you get airbourne with the sole intention of doing GWC-SAM-BIA and then dont get a joining clearance, make sure you fully prepared to route around or underneath.

As a matter of interest what a.c type was you planning on doing this in, you'll likely find that the route GWC-SAM-BIA will become more available the quicker the a.c you are in if you are IFR. Nothing worse than something having a ground speed of 60kts IFR trying to cross controlled airspace with everything whisitling around it at 250kts.

[DFC]

If you get airbourne with the sole intention of doing GWC-SAM-BIA and then dont get a joining clearance, make sure you fully prepared to route around or underneath.

Or hold in the published hold at GWC until the expect onward clearance time provided by ATC when the join is requested.

While not being very efficient, this pilot has chosen the published procedures that would take them to Bournemouth on an IFR flight plan i.e. a GWC departure from Fairoaks and then join the SAM1D arrival for Bournemouth.

That means they are a normal category flight inbound to an aerodrome within the Solent CTA and unless there is flow in operation they should not have much of a delay and there is no requirement on an IFR airways flight to have a plan B which keeps the aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Any problems regarding excess traffic would be handled via CTOT and flow regulation.

I can just imagine the Gulfstream pilots departing Farnborough on a GWC departure having a plan to do the flight outside controlled airspace!!

The above does not change my recomendation previously regarding the best route to take.

Regards,

DFC

[3miles]

Or hold in the published hold at GWC until the expect onward clearance time provided by ATC when the join is requested.

While not being very efficient, this pilot has chosen the published procedures that would take them to Bournemouth on an IFR flight plan i.e. a GWC departure from Fairoaks and then join the SAM1D arrival for Bournemouth.

That means they are a normal category flight inbound to an aerodrome within the Solent CTA and unless there is flow in operation they should not have much of a delay and there is no requirement on an IFR airways flight to have a plan B which keeps the aircraft outside controlled airspace.

Any problems regarding excess traffic would be handled via CTOT and flow regulation.

I can just imagine the Gulfstream pilots departing Farnborough on a GWC departure having a plan to do the flight outside controlled airspace!!

The above does not change my recomendation previously regarding the best route to take.

Sorry from my understanding of the post, the pilot had no intention of flying Airways, and only joining airspace at SAM IFR. I believe for the pilot to join at GWC this would require solent to gain permision from TC or the Pilot to request join with TC at GWC. So a join at SAM could result in a delay or initially request to remain outside due to inbound/outbound traffic from EGHI. They not going to stop all movements for an A/C that hasnt flown airways. So hence my point of recommending that an alternative plan is kept in mind in case of any delay, especially if the pilot in question is in something fairly quick, and doesnt want to orbit outside of controlled airspace. However i imagine, as the pilot quite rightly says, accepting vectors, or alternative levels will probably assist in gaining some form of IFR entry into the Solent CTA quicker.

DFC other advice is good, along with what others have posted. If you intend to fly the route wholly within the controlled airspace by joining at GWC then as pointed out you will be treated as normal, and subject to any flow or CTOT. But if you are remaining outside, and requesting an ADHOC join, you may get a delay if SOLENT are too busy to give you direct due other traffic at the time.

Either way Solent is the highest infringed airspace....VFR/IFR so the advice of good planning still remains, with a good alternative if you cant get an immediate clearance to enter.

[3miles]

[QUOTECall Farnborough, they are paid loads of money by CAA to provide service to aircraft outside controlled airspace][/QUOTE]

As pointed out, they get paid next to nothing for being a LARS, the staffing and equipment needed to provide the Farnborough LARS cost far more than they receive in payment for the service. NATS funds it purely as a "Goodwill" to the GA and to try and help reduce the number of Infringements in and around the LTMA. Its viewed the money is worth spending against the cost of risk that infringements pose.

If it was money making...every unit in the country would provide the same!

[DFC]

I should of course point out that IFR Fairoaks departures to Bournemouth are required to route via HAZEL. ATC will not accept an IFR flight plan that goes direct to GWC or routes to the west initially.

-(FPL-GABCD-IG -PA34/L -S/S -EGTF1200 -N0140F070 HAZEL -EGHH0030 EGHI -)

Works fine

as does

-(FPL-GABCD-IG -PA34/L -S/S -EGTF1200 -N0140F070 HAZEL SAM1D -EGHH0030 EGHI -)


---------------

Either way Solent is the highest infringed airspace....VFR/IFR so the advice of good planning still remains, with a good alternative if you cant get an immediate clearance to enter.

In the case of VFR or IFR fligts with no flight plan or intending to remain outside you may have a point.

However, this is a different scenario and for the normal IFR flights, the decision if a flight can be completed is done at flight plan filing stage i.e. if the route is not acceptable to ATC then the FPL is rejected. i.e. if you file and receive an ACK then the proposed route is acceptable.

The question of ATC capacity at the time the flight will be in the airspace is handled via the flow system. i.e. if one expects to cross SAM at 1200 and there are too many flights already filed in that bit of airspace a CTOT will be issued.

Of course a joining clearance is required. But the acceptability of the route and ensuring that there is ATCO(s) capacity to handle the flight is done at European levels these days.

Therefore, aside from an incident / disaster, it is reasonable for an IFR flight with an ACK from their FPL and a CTOT (or no delay) to expect that provided they depart correctly and keep to the plan, their flight will proceed normally without excessive enroute or terminal holding.

If (with noting unusual happening) such a flight ended holding outside controlled airspace for a long time then it would be clear that something was wrong for example - the ATC capacity is declared at a higher level than the ATCO can provide.

To have it otherwise would result in among other things operators being unable to determine how much fuel is required for the flight.

Regards,

DFC

[TCAS FAN]

DFC

You can file a FPL at F070, get the ACK, but chances of getting a clearance from LTC (SW) at FL 70 via the TMA, into the face of Farnborough arrivals, via GWC are about zero. As I mentioned previously, file below the TMA, ie 5000 Ft, call Farnborough and request a handover to Solent.

[3miles]

DFC

I think you are looking at things too much in an ideal world, although all what you say in regard of Flight Planning, acceptable routes, CTOTS etc is all correct. The Majority of this applies to aircraft flying wholly within controlled airspace, and even then things can be changed after a flightplan is submitted and accepted. (aircraft can get re-routes as late as taxi out, or held enroute because of weather or issues at airfield, a sudden overload en-route, can suddenly mean a stop to all deps on a particular route, or the application of MDI/MIT which dont fit in with the CTOT system and are a dynamic flow application)

In the case where someone files a flightplan, and looks to join a CTA then yes they may still have a CTOT applied for all the reasons you explain, but when it actually comes to gaining a joining clearance on arrival at that CTA boundary, what is going on at that point for that particular controller, is what will determine what, how and if a joining clearance will be issued. No controller is dictated by the fact that someone has filed a flightplan means they will instantly give a joining clearance. Somewhere like the Solent CTA, where there may be an excessive amount of VFR, non planned IFR flights, or simply traffic just in the way at that point, could all result in no clearance being issued or the requested clearance. Although CTOTS are issued for the area, its not somewhere that is subject to regular flow and due to the dynamic nature of the operation there, any Flow restrictions that may be requested by the unit, may not come into force until its too late, i.e a/c already en route or operating outside of controlled airspace are still on there way, even if a rate as now been applied.

So in the case of the pilot here, he may call solent, having filed a flightplan, which of course will help as they will then have the details and help the controller decide quicker what is available, but the clearance that gets issued to get him enroute to BIA might not be GWC dct SAM, and probably not at the level requested. The controller will take all sorts of things into account, including aircraft type, as to the route in which they plan to get him across the CTA. and if at the time of the call the workload is such that they cant get back to him immediately they may tell him to stand by and remain outside, which would lead to the pilot either having to orbit, or start to plan a route around, or underneath the CTA.

A Flightplan is NOT a clearance to enter controlled airspace, given a squawk, a service outside again do NOT constitute any intention of the controller to allow that flight entry. Anybody that thinks filing a flightplan, even if they have an acknowledgment message, gives them the permission to enter controlled airspace is waiting to become the next statistic on the infringement list.

So I stand by my previous statement...ensure you have an alternative plan, or file to fly totally within controlled airspace, that way you will fit in within the realms completely of what you said regarding to routing and CTOTS. Because if it was the case otherwise, why would anyone file flightplans that route via airways when they could just file DCT and ensure they can get a joining clearance each time they pitched up at a Controlled airspace boundary.

The routes and suggestions that you suggest, are all good. But having a back up plan, being familar with the airspace are also necessary in case what you planned and what you get become two different things. Solent being solent though, I am sure they will do there upmost best to ensure the pilot gets the best, safest and most efficient route they can offer...in the best quoted words...."Subject to Traffic"

[DFC]

Because if it was the case otherwise, why would anyone file flightplans that route via airways when they could just file DCT and ensure they can get a joining clearance each time they pitched up at a Controlled airspace boundary.

I think that if you look around you will find that flights do "just file direct" when the system allows and they do get a joining clearance every time they pitch up at the airspace boundary. Perhaps you need to look at how flights from Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Oxford, Brize, Exeter, Plymouth, Newquay, Swansea, Gloucester, Filton, Biggin Hill, Coventry, Norwich, to name just a small few actually operate.

Even in this case, as I said earlier the route with least ATC delay would be west initially and then south. Thus the pilot will pitch up 15 miles north of the BIA and guess what - they will get a joining clearance. However, what is different is the risk level -

Route via controlled airspace - known traffic environment, appropriately equipped aircraft, qualified pilots and an ATC service

or

Route via class G - rely on self to avoid all the other IFR, (UK)VFR, Gliders, Military plus the odd ammateur rocket launch that can be in the same cloud at the same level as one finds onself - no separation, unknown environment, even a flight information service is not guaranteed

Operators file IFR within controlled airspace because that is where they get the protection afforded by a known traffic environment and an ATC service. In the UK the IFR pilot can choose to take advantage of those protections as early or as late in their IFR flight as possible.

This issue comes up again and again. It simply translates into the ATCO's doing the job can't do what the system says that they do. Operators have asked on several occasions for the UK system to better reflect what happens in practice. i.e. specify a different mandatory routing and/or limit the maximum level that can be filed.

and if at the time of the call the workload is such that they cant get back to him immediately they may tell him to stand by and remain outside, which would lead to the pilot either having to orbit, or start to plan a route around, or underneath the CTA.

This is IFR we are talking about - IFR flight usually don't "orbit" - they enter a hold. Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realise that they might not get a join - about the same number.

I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on, trying to use a Jeppesen low level chart to route around or below the Solent CTA.

No scrub that, I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on telling you where to go if you ever suggested such a crazy idea.

"Remain outside expect onward clearance at (.....) time check (......)"

Works fine.

A request to avoid would be responded to with "request vectors".

Very hard to infringe when ATC is doing the navigating.

We all know that Farnborough are going to point the flight just to the west of PEPIS towards Romsey / stoney cross and solent / bournemouth will then vector it to the ILS.

However, nothing available to the competent pilot operating in the area for the first time suggests this is the likely outcome, that the flight will not be protected by CAS ASAP after departure or without indepth planning the level of risk that is present in what should be an AIAA.

Some would even question how Fairoaks - an aerodrome with no approach facilities, and no ATC can be an IFR airport.

Regards,

DFC

[Roffa]

DFC,

Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realise that they might not get a join - about the same number.

Some would even question how Fairoaks - an aerodrome with no approach facilities, and no ATC can be an IFR airport.

You ever thought about going into comedy script writing, I see a great career ahead of you

[anotherthing]

...You can file a FPL at F070, get the ACK, but chances of getting a clearance from LTC (SW) at FL 70...

FL70 is below the minimum level that is accepted in the LTMA for cruise.

[3miles]

I think that if you look around you will find that flights do "just file direct" when the system allows and they do get a joining clearance every time they pitch up at the airspace boundary. Perhaps you need to look at how flights from Farnborough, Blackbushe, Fairoaks, Oxford, Brize, Exeter, Plymouth, Newquay, Swansea, Gloucester, Filton, Biggin Hill, Coventry, Norwich, to name just a small few actually operate.

Perhaps I already do on a daily basis and perhaps I often see....No you cant enter controlled airspace..or I see an alternative joining clearance issued to what may have been filed.

Perhaps i even see flights point blank being refused the requested routing because of traffic at the time...not the time when the flightplan was filed.

ATC will always do there up most to give a joining clearance, but it will be subject to what will work with the present traffic, a routing say EGBO DCT HON CPT etc would unlikely be given a joining clearance routing direct HON in the climb, more likely told to remain to west of the BHAM CTA whilst climbing, and then once above the level of inbound and outbounds, given vectors, and a heading that gets it into controlled airspace towards CPT.

A routing out of EGBE going DTY EGNX might be flatly refused based on a/c type performance, and given headings to climb into controlled airspace.

A routing to route GWC-SAM- BIA again might be given a routing north/south of SAM, its level changed, or delayed before an entry clearance can be issued.

As i said before, A/C type will often have an effect just on how easy it is to give a join, Mr Texan in his G5 is fast, climbs well, and easy to get out the way either laterally or out climb other traffic, so more likely to get his join as planned, but just the same, ATC separate planes, so if Mr TEXAN decided to fly EGLF, GWC-SAM-BIA at 4000 ft and first call solent get his him heading towards the CTA boundary at 250kts, they may say remain outside, IFR flightplan actually now means they cant just point you at sam and take out the arrival and departure that is in the way at SAM. If he chooses to orbit, take up a Hold or route around outside thats his choice, he is outside of controlled airspace, the operative word there being controlled, as in he isnt being controlled! If the controller chooses to he may not provide him with any service, DS or TS, or even BS if he so wishes, and in fact at 3000ft outside controlled airspace anywhere near GWC towards SAM a BS is about all I would give in the height of the summer, because anything else would be physically impossible to provide with the amount of unknown traffic out there.

DFC, i have read some of other posts, and although you obviously have a vast wealth of Knowledge, you quite clearly don't also live in the real world. You seem to be of the nature that your pilots license gives you the right to do just about whatever you see fit, that when you fly you are the only a/c that should be considered and stuff the rest of the system, or other operators sharing that sky. ATC will always do their upmost best to provide a joining clearance, to an aircraft, whether it be IFR/VFR, filled a flightplan or is a free call. but under no circumstances do any of those things give that aircraft the right to do just what it wants because it has planned to do so.

This is IFR we are talking about - IFR flight usually don't "orbit" - they enter a hold. Ask how many pilots departing Farnborough have a hold planned in case they don't get their joining clearance? Almost none. Ask how many even realize that they might not get a join - about the same number.

I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on, trying to use a Jeppesen low level chart to route around or below the Solent CTA.

No scrub that, I can just picture Texan sitting in the left seat of a G5 with the cowboy hat on telling you where to go if you ever suggested such a crazy idea.

"Remain outside expect onward clearance at (.....) time check (......)"

Works fine.

A request to avoid would be responded to with "request vectors".

Very hard to infringe when ATC is doing the navigating.

you even here say on one hand that no pilot expects to be refused entry, and then go onto quote the r/t phrase "Remain outside ...." and that works fine? Hmmmm isn't that a refusal to enter controlled airspace?

In the case of MR Texan here, his entry clearance is formulated pretty much on the ground, co-ordinated by EGLF and TC at that point, a refusal actually may even still occur, at that point with a delay to holding it on the ground for a couple of minutes, the case we are talking about here is Solent giving join to something they had no control over previoulsy.

Now lets say me sitting there at solent says "Remain Outside controlled airspace" to Mr G5.....and I say onward clearance is 5 mins....identify MR G5 and tell him due controller workload he is under a Basic Service, or even maybe nicely offer a reduced Traffic Service, tell him about the multiple Primary only contacts that his TCAS cant see all milling around out there. Do you think MR G5 is going to take up a nice hold at GWC, for the next 5 mins, (a time that he'd actually probably have made BIA by) or think sod that, I'll plan a alternative route, down along the south coast under the CTA, and get entry along there or direct with bmth? or be happy to accept an alternative route that I may offer? Or will he blindly insist that GWC-SAM at 4000ft is all he can accept because thats what he has filed!

A request for vectors might also be responded with...."Basic service....suggest heading north south or whatever but UNABLE to provide vectors, cus guess what you are outside of controlled airspace, not under a radar service, and I cant vector you around all those unknown contacts!

Dont get me wrong in this example its unlikely that entry will be refused...but as always you have drifted away and use ridiculous examples to argue your point rather than keeping it to what the original post was about...a bit like the rubbish you wrote on the Weather avoiding posts. But perhaps thats the answer again, we could do it all procedural and put everyone on radials again!

Its quite simple....fly inside of controlled airspace, to get the service guaranteed, fly outside...you may get a service, you may get a join, hey it may even be the join you planned for, but then again you may get none, or only part of it.

Your IFR flightplan is information, and a request of intent....it isn't a clearance and it isn't a right to join any controlled airspace exactly as you plan!

DFC i strongly suggest you visit some ATC a bit more often, and lose the attitude of that you are the only pilot in the sky, become part of the system, work with it and realize that everyone else in it trys to make it all work nicely, but it doesn't always go to plan, but by working with it everyone gets along quite nicely rather than your attitude that what you want is the only possible solution....otherwise, I'm likely to be seeing your report on my desk one day.

[Roffa]

3miles, don't let yourself get sucked into DFC's reality, it's different to the one you and I live/work in.