PPL training /SFH in South Africa

[Flying Lawyer]

stik
It's not only Circuit Basher who needs a "sojourn to the back of the class." :)
There's no breach of the South Africa low flying rules, nor would there have been a breach of Rule 5 if the flight had been in the UK.
People often make the mistake of thinking of UK Rule 5 (the 500' rule) as a 'minimum height' rule. It's not; it's a 'minimum proximity' rule.
In contrast, the RSA equivalent is a 'minimum height' rule - but you are allowed to fly below the minimum height provided you can do so without hazard or nuisance to people or property:

South Africa: Part 91.06.32
"............... except with prior written approval of the Commissioner, no aircraft …... shall be flown at a height less than 500 feet above the ground or water, unless the flight can be made without hazard or nuisance to persons or property on the ground or water."
(The FAA has a similar provision which applies to helicopters only.)

UK: Rule 5 Low flying
Rule 5 (2) (b) The 500 feet rule
Except with the permission in writing of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.

As cloud69 points out, there are no persons, vessels, vehicles or structures - just miles of totally deserted white sandy beach.

The last time I did anything similar in a f/w was in a Harvard along Padre Island off the South coast of Texas about 15 years ago. You can do the same sort of thing along many parts of the California coastline. More limited in a f/w, but plenty of opportunity in a helicopter because the FAA low flying rules for helicopters are more sensible than ours.


Tudor Owen http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/touchngo.gif

[Kolibear]

So if the 500' proximty rule says that you are now allowed to fly within a sphere of radius 500' from any vessel., person, structure etc AND a flight is defined as starting as soon as you release the brakes with the intention of flying - does this mean that all aircraft such be parked 500' away from all buildings etc?



(sorry, its a slow afternoon here)

[stiknruda]

Flying Lawyer,

I fear that I have been misunderstood!

I, have an RSA licence and I was trying to point out to CircuitB that you were NOT infringing any regulations:

If I may, m'lud, I'd like to refer you to my first post on this thread,

Do you mean the one about 45' and still not in breach of Rule 5 - which does mean something similar in RSA!

When CB then realised that he'd misread the altimeter, (see Heliport's post) he went on to state, "corrected", ie 350 now reads 45 and then stated, "Point remains the same, if not amplified, however

It was this statement that I asked him to qualify!

Stik

[Flying Lawyer]

Stik
Sorry, I saw "Please explain to me why he IS NOT in breach of rule 5!" and thought you were suggesting I was.
I think the point which CB meant still stood was "I'm now officially jealous." :D

Just in case anyone else is concerned about a possible breach of the SA low flying rules, this pic gives a better view of the miles of beach I mentioned - no "person or property on the ground or water." (And, if the flight had been in the UK, no "person, vessel, vehicle or structure" within considerably more than 500' of the aircraft. )

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/CapeFlying018_600.jpg



Kolibear
If you meant "now" allowed, that part of Rule 5 hasn't changed. You can't now fly within a (semi)sphere of radius 500' from any person, vessel etc, and you couldn't before the amendment.
If that was a typo and you meant 'not' allowed --

The Low flying prohibitions in Rule 5 start with:
Rule 5 (1) (a) “An aircraft shall comply with the low flying prohibitions set out in paragraph (2), subject to the low flying exemptions set out in paragraph (3)."
After reading the prohibitions in 5 (2), you need to go to 5 (3) to find the exemptions.
They include:
Rule 5 (3) (a) (i) “Any aircraft shall be exempt from any low flying prohibition in so far as it is flying in accordance with normal aviation practice for the purpose of taking off from, landing at or practising approaches to landing at or checking navigational aids or procedures at a Government or licensed aerodrome."
and
Rule 5 (3) (a) (ii) “Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and taking-off in accordance with normal aviation practice.”


The South Africa rules, like the FAA rules, are rather simpler to follow and understand.
Part 91.06.32 (cited in my previous post) starts off:
“Except when necessary for taking off or landing, or except with prior written approval of the Commissioner, no aircraft …. shall be flown ….. etc"

Phew! Too much law for a Friday evening.
Time for a glass of wine. :)

[tagdenmedro]

Hello

I need some advise. Is there a JAA approved school in SA that can make PPL ´s

cheers

[Swedevan]

Hi There

I don´t know if there is any JAA aproved Schools, but I know u can validate a ICAO PPL to JAA, once u go home to Denmark. Check with ur CAA.

Swedevan

[Sir Cumference]

You may to try Virginia Flight School in Durban. I know that they are doing foreign training and have been audited by a JAA inspector. I am not absolutely certain but they are worth a try.

SC

[Gerard123]

Yep I was there 2 weeks ago they were showing me their Dutch students

[Kerosene Converter]

have a look at www.43aýrschool.co.za
thýnk ýt ýs the best one overall for zero to hero traýnýng(o to frozen atpl) ýf u want for a better phrase! may be many others good just for ppl tho.
cheap beer and wýne too!!!!
enjoy!

[Grumman Man]

Lots of excellent flying schools in S.A and no 43 air school is far from being the best. Unfortunately the only fully JAA approved school in S.A closed down but apparently Lanseria Flight Centre does offer JAA PPL.

[99Luftballons]

Goie More!

Could anybody help me in my quest to find out where I can hour build (i.e. rent a plane) in South Africa. I will be based in George (Garden Route) and would love to find something close to there. I have heard rather bad comments about Cape Flying Services in George (the most convenient location) and loads of good comments about Algoa in Port Elizabeth (not so convenient). Are there any other places such as Mossel Bay or Plettenberg Bay that anyone is aware of?

Secondly, can anyone suggest some places to fly to? I would love to fly along the coast and into the small Karoo perhaps. (Oudtshoorn, Swellendam, Plett, PE, etc.) Does every airport have a run-around car and do they all charge landing fees?

Thirdly, what map should I buy? Can I pick one up in SA or should I pre-order something from Jeppesen for example?

Many thanks for your answers.

99

[Hobgoblin]

I did my PPL in George with Cape Flying Services a long time ago.

Fantastic place to fly. In fact so beautiful that one can easily forget where you are and get lost. ( Luckily never happened to me )

Also, Cape Flying Services has had some good press and also some bad press. My experience with them has always been positive and Gerald has always treated me professionally and correctly. I'm sure you are going to hear lots of different things from all kinds of people but in my honest opinion CFS is a good place to train.

I did my multi engine in the PA23 they have now namely ZS-MDL while it was still based in Pretoria rather than in the one they used to have, (ZS- DSC) and that aerie alone is worth the trip down there:ok:

[bendix]

More 99,

To give you an honest answer I need more information:

1.What type of a/c are you licenced on ?

2.Are you a PPL or CPL?

3.How long wil you be in the RSA?

There is a very active flying club at Oudshoorn and the weather is better than at George,but can become very hot in summer.

All major airports have rent- a- cars

Buy a " AVIMAP" book at any local flying school that contains a full set of 1:1,000,000 maps,frequency charts,flightplans ext.
PM for where you can order this.:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

"My PM is turned off and I'm battling to turn it on...!"


Have you tried telling it you love it...?:E

[99Luftballons]

Many thanks for your replies this far. Bendix, I tried to PM you but it may also be down? Here is some more info to some of the issues raised.

I have a PPL (just in the process of completing this). I am doing this on a Piper Warrior but the flight school also has the C172 which I will fly in as it will give me more options when I come to SA. I will be in SA for 3 weeks and hope to fly in two of these.

I think it would be great if I could make use of the aeroplanes in George and fly to Oudtshoorn, Plett, PE and back, perhaps go over Bavianskloof and some of Route 69. Any suggestions will be welcomed!

The AviMap sounds like a good investment too, any idea how much they go for?

Thanks

99

[George Tower]

some of Route 69

sounds like plenty of fun to me......the tourist literature I see generally refers to route 62:ok:

You can get fuel at Oudtshoorn, Plett, Swellendam, Beaufort West and Roberston. There is an active flying club at Oudtshoorn - the chap there is Johan Erasmus tel 082 253 9150 email: [email protected]. He runs the show there and is a splendid fellow.

Oh and there is Mossel Bay as well - apparently the flying club there is very active. Also you may from memory get better prices that at George, also you don't have the hassle of controlled airspace.

Edited to make post informative instead of innuendo

[Heliport]

Advice posts in the African Aviation forum copied and merged here for info.

Heliport

[Irv]

99Luftballons: (renting):
I've pm'd you about avimap and passing SA Air Law when you get there.

One key thing is to make sure the club you are going to use are 'on the ball' as far as getting you in the air and your paperwork through the SA CAA. Go to the wrong club (hasn't been mentioned here yet) and spend all your 3 weeks waiting for paperwork as no preparation has been done, go to another school and you're legal in a day.

One initial question might be 'have you had an UK pilots for validations before?' - if the answer's 'no', be careful they know what to do and are prepared to fast-track you, if the answer is 'yes', ask how long the last one took the club to process. (CFS should be completely on the ball with all this, but if you approach any club that isn't used to UK visitors, make sure you ask the questions in advance).

Also, just make sure you have signed-off time in your log book on any type you intend to rent there - saves a lot of argument - SA is very 'type-conscious'!

[Marty-Party]

Anyone know if there is a tiger Moth available for hire in South Africa. An instructor would also be required of course for the initial check ride.

Thanks

[Mark 1]

Several I believe.

I remember one around the Jo'burg/Pretoria area a few years ago.
Most have tailwheels in place of skids to cope with harder ground.

Try posting on the Africa forum, you may get more response.

[stiknruda]

Try Willie or Cyril Strecker at Rand

Aircraft Refurbishing Co tel : +27 11 907 4732 or fax: +27 11 907 2041


Stik

[Flying Lawyer]

Marty-Party

Anyone know if there is a tiger Moth available for hire in South Africa

Anywhere in South Africa?!
It's a big place. ;)

A friend tells me Cape Town Flight Training Centre used to offer Tiger Moth trial lessons/conversion courses.
He doesn't know if they still do but you could check.


FL

[normb]

Hi All,
I'm looking for some recent feedback on Algoa FC in South Africa. Hoping to do my PPL there later this year. Would be grateful for any feedback that you can give from anyone that's trained there.
Thanks
normb.

[birdlady]

Link removed. PM him the details please.

:ok: :ok:

[Jenni Morton]

Fantastic people - instructors - members - food - and delightful
location - you will succeed and enjoy!
don't leave it to near to christmas - i had 50knt crosswinds:confused:
but had a wonderful time and learnt a lot even though i did not complete
but i went to hour build and see if i really wanted to learn
came away with YES i do!
bit delayed - lifes rich pattern and all that!
but will:oh:

[Leezyjet]

Algoa is a great place to learn. I did my PPL there last March/April. Due to my own stupidity I got my days muddled up and had less time there than I thought. Still the team pulled together and I passed from start to finish in 19 days (although I would recommend taking a little longer than this !!! :eek: )

I went back in December, called them on the Thursday and was there on the Monday morning and banged out 9.9 hours in the 2 days I was there for.

They will really help you to get completed in the time you have. it is also a very friendly and relaxed place to learn too and you will meet people from all over the place in the "Gremlin's Grotto" at the end of the flying day.

I'm going back down in March to do my renewal and add a night rating.

It's a great club, I love going there. All the a/c have now been refurbished too and are like new inside and out.

The weather in PE in March/April is very similar to what you get in the UK in summer, and it's good for learning the X-wind landings too. Also the fact that you are learning at a "Real" airport with scheduled traffic helps you get used to flying with the big boys from the start.

I have some pics in this thread from my trip in December :-

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=207786

:ok:

[vfr-uk]

Hi

My license expired 10 April 2005, as I didn't get enough hours in the second year, and didn't revalidate [foolishly thinking that starting my own business would lead to more free time and money for flying!].

Anyway, I'm desperate to get it back again, and am visiting South Africa (Cape Town) where I'll have some time on my hands for a week or so....

Any advice on whether I can fly there under training to try and get my license back would be much appreciated. Can I get the required signatures there, or would I need to come back to the UK to get it? Would I need a VISA? Any flight schools to recommend in Cape Town?

Also, as it's lapsed does anyone know if I need to take any exams again or a flight test?

Thanks for any advice, and apologies if this has been covered before.

[Whopity]

Your licence probably didn't expire, but your aircraft rating did! All you need to renew it is a Skill Test, which takes about 1 hour, but you may need a couple of hours practice before hand. You will probably not find any JAA examiners in SA, so it would make sense to renew before you go then do some flying with you valid license when you get there.

[egbt]

I flew with http://www.ghfc.org.za/index.htm last year and will do again in Feb next year. Old a/c but they appear to be a OK people. Not a JAR organisation though so probably only good for a "brush up".

Be sure to do the circuit of Table Mountain and the Cape of Good Hope (about an hour), the scenery is stunning.

[Fuji Abound]

Great flying

[vfr-uk]

thanks for the advice! much appreciated...

[woodsey]

Hi Guys,

I'm considering taking a career break and one option would be to spend some time in SA. If I do my PPL out there am I valid to fly in the uk or do I have to take any other tests/validations to fly in the UK when I return?

Also any other advice on SA schools/safety/general stuff would be useful

Regards

Woodsey

[sawaya]

Hi south african PPL is valid in the uk no need to validate in the uk.The best school i would advice you to go to is 43 air school,beyond no doubt it is in the top five flying schools in the world,i did my PPL and COMM lats year,exellent standards of aircrafts instructors,many UK airlines are sending their cadets there too,you can check them out on WWW.43airschool.com (http://www.43airschool.com) you will never regret The PPL should take at least 8 weeks

BEST OF LUCK

[African Drunk]

Try Progress Flight Academy in PE. Nicest part of country on the Garden Route and safer than jo'burg. School vgood seen lots of guys that went there all good pilots and never heard a bad word said abiut them.

[GULF69]

Out of interest... 43 Air Scool in SA, Port Alfred, has the 2nd hightest flying hours of flight schools, IN THE WORLD

69

[Spitfire78]

I'm going to do my PPL in SA in April/May, have settled on doing it in Cape Town because we have family there and we're trying to keep the costs down.

It might be worth pointing out that there are rumours that the SA CAA is about to change the way (1st of May) in which the theory exams are delivered, which might mean having to wait up to 2 weeks to get your results if you're not taking them in Midrand (at the CAA as far as I'm aware). Google "New CAA PPL Exam System" which should come up with a SA based forum where this is being discussed. Understandably a lot of the schools are upset about this, and rightly so. (I'm hoping to squeeze all the exams in by the end of April)

One can only hope they realise the impact of this and come up with a more workable solution in good time.

SF78

[Ransman 2]

A couple of points to remember about using a SA PPL in the UK. You can but if you want to fly a type (not a class) in the UK that is not in your log book, you have to have a check ride with an instructor with a SA rating. E.g if you have a C152 but not a C172, without a check ride, you can't fly the C172. In fairness you can't in SA either but life gets interesting when you want to fly say an unusual or PFA type.

At the moment only Irv Lee at Popham can do check rides in the UK and -oh yes - there's one other slight difficulty. If the type you want to convert on in the UK has no representative on the SA register, bad luck. I'm going through the mill right now and the SACAA tell me that they have no intention at present of changing this situation to be in line with JAR and FAA (which have class ratings on your licence).

[BRL]

Have a word with Irv Lee here......... (http://www.higherplane.flyer.co.uk/) :)

[Irv]

PPL ground exams:
The SA CA has decreed that SA PPL exams can only take place at 4 designated centres from May 1st: Midrand (near Joberg), Cape Town, Durban or Port Elizabeth. The 'industry' is onto it big time trying to stop the change, and may do so, with 'economic' arguments - it's a case of watch and see.
'type' ratings on PPLs. When I went there in November, there were strong rumours of a change away from 'types' to a weight limit system for SEP aircraft (like we had before JAR). The rumours even had a date - this coming summer - but again, it will happen if it happens, so 'types' it is until it isn't.

edit: ps: by 'summer' i meant 'UK summer' ie: june/july

[cooladnan_1]

i am a kenyan and i have got great interest in becoming a pilot. the only thing is that i have alot of confusion on which school to choose... the following schools are the ones i have in mind : cape flying services, progress flying school, 43 air school, flight training services. i have interests in these schools but the decision for me to choose is tough... i would really appreciate if anyone could help me give opinions about these schools.. thank you.

[GYAKR]

Try Cape Town Flight Training Centre

Findlay Smith is the man to contact

Cape Town Flight Training Centre - Home (http://cape-town-flying.co.za/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1)