View Full Version : BA short of pilots...what a surprise!

Hot Wings
26th Nov 2001, 16:08
Poor Rodderick - now that he is no longer in a position to ruin his third airline, Qantas, he is now focusing all of his management "skills" on BA. According to my source, BA is only 8 pilots in surplus and will need to begin recruitment early in the New Year. Typically, though, Rod is quoted as saying that he would rather cancel flights than recruit more pilots!!! He is concerned about losing face in the City.
What a way to run an airline! Still with 3 senior managers per airframe what do you expect?

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]

Doctor Cruces
26th Nov 2001, 16:33
Rather cancel flights than recruit pilots!!!!
What kind of idiot is this man??

I would think that a flight deck plus cabin crew salary for one year would work out quite a bit less expensive than hotacing the pax for an LHR-LAX service due to a lack of pilots!

Doc C. :(

26th Nov 2001, 17:36
This is a familiar problem first identified by the British Railway operator Connex South-Central.

After winning their franchise in the great sell-off in the nineties they immediately fired 30% of the train drivers. Then they cancelled services due to lack of drivers.

It seems that their is a direct link between the number of drivers/pilots you have and the number of services you can provide. Who would have guessed that?

26th Nov 2001, 17:52
So when will they start recruiting again?

26th Nov 2001, 18:10
The "Prince of Darkness" has said (I was in the room) that he has held his position in Flt Ops Management for so long due to his uncanny skill at forecasting flight ops requirements for pilots.

I wonder if he is now looking over his shoulder?

Hot Wings - your source?

Human Factor
26th Nov 2001, 18:20
If that is the case, Skippy's 'Prince of Darkness' should be planning a similar career move to Tiny Blur's 'Prince of Darkness'!! :D

26th Nov 2001, 18:20
I don't know that we're THAT little in surplus, but certainly the mix of surplus pilots and fleets doesn't add up. Some fleets are doing lots of flying and others are sitting around on their proverbials.

Still, this is a rumours network and it would be good to see Skippy actually do something.



26th Nov 2001, 19:17
The "Prince of Darkness" in my opinion is a @@@@.

He has kept his job most likely cos he is a brown noser.

When I met him he was incredibly rude. He is just a pen pusher who has a high opinion of himself.

Hot Wings
26th Nov 2001, 20:47
Recover - it is true that BA only have a surplus of 8 pilots.
As it stands BA do not have enough pilots to run the schedule from April 2002 onwards, hence the requirement to begin recruiting again in Feb/Mar. Don't forget that there will be over 200 retirements during the next 12 months - 19 Captains are retiring from the 744 in January 2002.

It will be interesting to see what happens but I suspect that BA will try to farm more and more work out to the franchises. Perhaps there will also be a clamp down on sickness levels and an increase in CAP (hours worked). Worst case, is the rumour that a certain long haul fleet chief pilot has been trying to persuade the CAA that hours spent in the bunk should not count towards the 900 hours per annum limit. Anything to avoid recruiting!

Oh, did I mention a cut back in simulator recurrent training, from 4 days per year to 3 days, in order to save money? Safety is our number one priority! Still, BA need to save money on pilots and training so that they can waste it on 600 senior managers and 1000s of middle managers - many of whom are still duty travelling around in First Class.

[ 26 November 2001: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]

26th Nov 2001, 23:58
One has to ask---if they are short of pilots, just how many hours are the present pilots doing monthly, by acft type?

27th Nov 2001, 00:57
411A - you want to know?

Apply for a flt ops position in BA.

Log into FICO, and, armed with the latest copy of the Master Seniority List, download everyone's hours. Type them into a database/spreadsheet program, and away you go!

No, I didn't think you could be bothered, and nor will anyone else be on your behalf!

27th Nov 2001, 03:14
Hot Wings

I hate to be controversial but it does seem slightly over the top that all bunk time counts towards the 900 hour annual limit. I spent 10 years on the 744 and enjoyed every minute of it and in my humble opinion a 4 crew HKG was a great deal less tiring than flying to Moscow and back in a 757.

They may well be an argument that we are all working hard enough or to count bunk hours at half rate but sleeping or just resting in the bunk can not really be described as physically tiring!

27th Nov 2001, 03:18
I don't know what you think of it, but a yearly maximum of 900 hrs of flight on long haul routes is really high actually! That's over 80 hrs per month if you take into account all holidays, you know...
My previous employer and also my future employer both require(d) much less: 750hrs.
I strongly advice BALPA to push for a reduction in BA's duty times.

;) ;) ;)

27th Nov 2001, 04:57
...and for a reduction of pay, to go along with those reduced hours.
BA..overworked and underpaid...expect NOT.
CS First Boston stated in part in a recent report...."we estimate that British Airways will contine to destroy shareholders value for at least three years." That projection is based on the fact that the carrier and its network will have to struggle until the first quarter of 2004 to achieve the traffic volumes posted at pre September 11 levels.

So, it seems that pilots will just have to work a little "harder" to keep their jobs, let alone their present level of pay. Times are tough just now, so these guys/gals had better be glad for their positions.
As for BA managers...about a 50% reduction would be in order IMHO.

[ 27 November 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]

27th Nov 2001, 11:18

Are you ex Sabena by any chance? If so, I rest my case.

Notso Fantastic
27th Nov 2001, 13:21
Trust 411A, the right hand man to the Guvnerd, to trot out such trite idiocy. Is this man really a 'pilot' or is he the Guvnerd in disguise (who I believe is the idiot called Ceileidh in another forum? Boy couldn't pilot forums do without these two!

27th Nov 2001, 13:38
I am AirLib now.... :)

(The new name for AOM & Air Liberté)

27th Nov 2001, 14:27
I would be very surpised if "a certain BA long-haul chief pilot" was spending time trying to convince CAA that bunk hours should not count towards annual flying maxima. The BA management pilots I have encountered from time to time are a bit too canny to tilt at lost causes. Command time is command time, whether at the controls or in a bunk, a concept long established by maritime tradition - the master of a supertanker doesn't stop being the skipper when he is getting his head down. Likewise, the aircraft commander is responsible for the flight from off-chocks to on-chocks. I suspect a coffee-machine rumour here.

27th Nov 2001, 14:38

I wouldn't actually be suprised. The present situation is that pilots are reaching 900 hours and having to drop trips with a good percentage of those hours spent in the bunk.

I will leave others to decide if that is a realistic way to count hours.


You obviously don't like The Guvnor or 411A but they have as much right to post whatever they see fit as we all do. Instead of wasting your time attacking them for being here why not try some reasoned argument?

[ 27 November 2001: Message edited by: M.Mouse ]

27th Nov 2001, 20:38
Notso....reasoned argument...? Could it possibly happen?

Notso Fantastic
27th Nov 2001, 22:14
Possibly.....a pro-pilot posting out of you? Could it happen? Naaahhh!
Quite what entertainment you get between you two- Guvnerd and 411A (if indeed you are two- the similarities have struck me lately), in coming to this- a professional pilots forum, and wigging the professional pilots therein, amazes me. There are many people who like to hide behind the anonymity of the internet and tease galore, and you two are cases in point. I get fed up with discussions being taken over by you two above all while you expound your anti-pilot comments, so forgive me if I don't try and enter into a serious discussion with either of you- your true 'tease' feelings will surface, and quite honestly, neither of you has any sense or intelligence to commit here!

The Guvnor
27th Nov 2001, 22:28
Hmmm, yet another notso relevant post from Notso Fantastic where he comes out with his notso clever attacks on those that know something about operating economics (which at the end of the day means the difference between life and death for an airline, as for any other company).

I hear that his notso interesting posts are a source of constant irritation to his colleagues at Big Airways - most of whom apparently would be notso upset if he left that august company!

Notso Fantastic, dear boy, please do us all a favour will you and stop constantly hijacking threads with your attacks? It wastes Danny's expensive bandwith and contributes nothing - except demonstrating that it is possible to fool the psychometric tests.

Pirate - that's what happens when you drop the FE! Go back to three crew aircraft and you'll save a fortune. :D :D

28th Nov 2001, 01:31
I, for one, would be very surprised if the CAA decided that bunk hours didn't contribute to total hours. The aviation medical profession have already gone public and said it is not the hours of work so much as the time zone changes that put the body clock out of 'sync' and that is a major contributor towards fatigue.
I think it may have been NASA that said that every time zone crossed, over three hours different from departure, should equate to one day off at destination!!!
Hardly likely to happen either but I would expect BALPA to bring all their big medical guns to bear if any airline management tried this stunt, (discounting bunk hours).
IMHO 900 hours a year on the B744 is not excessive, been there, done that etc. but 900 is about the upper limit I would say.

[ 27 November 2001: Message edited by: G.Khan ]

28th Nov 2001, 02:24
I know this is getting away from the initial thread even more, but what I find illogical is the payment of the so-called "flying rate" whilst at kip in the bunk.....
I'll just nip outside now and pop my flak jacket on.....it's in the shed. Still got it from a previous life.

Hand Solo
28th Nov 2001, 03:20
The FHR is paid whilst crew are in the bunk because:

1)They're still working and still retain responsibility for the aircraft.

2)Thats the industrial agreement BALPA and BA reached together. Nobody forced BA to pay it, and if you want to rewrite agreements just becuase you don't like them, then why not stop paying salary to anyone on a slip because they're not flying that day?

28th Nov 2001, 06:34
Paid while in the bunk...well yes I suppose...why not paid while in the bar at destination, or elsewhere...
Hours are hours....why not pay at home as well?
Get real, the guys at BA (and others) will just HAVE to work a little harder after September...too bad for them, my heart bleeds.

28th Nov 2001, 07:59

Typical attitude coming from a guy who resides in the same country that sets the standard for high pilot pay for very few hours flown.

BTW, paid while in the bar at destination? Damn right!! Just like any other business professional with an expense account. Travelling does happen to be part of the job!

28th Nov 2001, 13:55

Sorry mate but you seem to be speculating on work rates and scheduling matters without all (any of?) the facts.

I work in BA shorthaul but know a little more than you seem to about BA longhaul. After working for 15 years as a pilot I have never worked so hard in such a sustained manner as I have in BA. I have only been with BA for the last few years and I have seen two other operations before I got here so feel qualified to draw comparisons. BA gets its pound of flesh from its pilots.

So whats your gripe? What does it matter to you if people express concern over their eroding T&Cs? I don't know where you work or what you do but unless you can come up with some startling insight into your own work 'ethic' don't criticise others.

28th Nov 2001, 14:14

Don't know where you get your information regarding NotSo's posts. I'm a BA colleague and don't get irritated by his messages and haven't seen any negative vibes on the BA forum, maybe you should stop clutching at straws and stick to doing what you do best; posting the useful aviation news without attaced comments.


Mate, you just haven't got a clue what you're talking about. As someone who has flown Stateside (and no, I'm not talking Cessnas or just night-stops)and now for BA I can tell you that our pay and conditions are far inferior to those of your countymen. The fact that you're scrambling around looking for jobs in the desert just tells me you couldn't make the grade at home. Give us all a break and keep your inane comments to yourself until you can back them up with any evidence.



28th Nov 2001, 14:25

I couldn't agree with you more!
It has been demonstrated by international audits that work/pay ratio at BA is quite high, which means working conditions are not as good as people think they are.

As I have said before, I know of several companies in europe requiring less and paying more, so they have a very low work/pay ratio which is better for us pilots.

However, I must admit that many of those companies are situated in South Europe (France for instance) and you must speak French fluently to join them. Not so much of a problem to me (native speaker) as it is to many other people, so I suppose that's the main reason they are less demanding...

Hey, I think it could very well pay off to learn some french... BTW, life at the côte d'azur is much better and relaxer then in Manchester for instance, so what are you waiting for? ;)

28th Nov 2001, 14:27
Hot Wings,

I've been known to dabble a little in the pilot recruitment and, so far, have not heard a thing about re-starting in Feb. Now given BA management, that is not unusual but I suppose the Feb bid pack will reveal a lot more. I'll have a sniff around and see if I can come up with any fuel to add to the fire.


Have to agree with your comments regarding Not So. I'm not in the least annoyed by his contributions.

Chocolates aweigh,


Human Factor
28th Nov 2001, 15:48
411A and others,

In my current haunt at BA, we routinely work twenty days pcm (maximum legal?) and often four sector days (11+ hours duty with getting on for 8 hours airborne - used to do five sectors).

Please explain to me again how I'm supposed to work harder?

Also, how does one avoid dozing off at the wheel of ones car on the way home, thereby increasing the seniority by one of anyone below me?

BTW, how we are paid is decided between the unions and the company .........

30th Nov 2001, 05:16
Feb might be a bit early, there are some guys at VS, BD, etc who have passed selection but are awaiting a call to arms around then. After that recruitment to re-start in May or thereabouts.

All accelerated by the Cadets getting seconded to CitiExpress this week.

30th Nov 2001, 10:54
411a: you are a bitter [email protected] and don't know the proverbial sh!t from a sandwich, and as for "the guvnor"; the presumptiousness of your chosen "handle" says it all. Give us all a break.

30th Nov 2001, 16:14
Is it likely given the supposed shortage of pilots and forthcoming retirements,that the cadet programme may be reinstated?


(edited for rather embarassing grammar!)

[ 30 November 2001: Message edited by: Springbok220 ]

Magnus Picus
1st Dec 2001, 01:46
900 hours in long haul. Pah!

Eeee, Aaaaa were working on't shorthaul last year, and Aaaaa did 810 hours in one year. Now that's what Aaaaa call 'ard work. Still t'draught were nice.

411A is a ruthless interloper with a very large fish hook. Guvnor, you really are quite strange. With that many posts I suggest you wear sun cream the next time you venture out of your cave. Do you really still live with your mother?

1st Dec 2001, 12:52
If the point is that we are short of pilots or will be soon, perhaps we should all be asking whether it is even worth working for BA?

In my opinion the answer is a big NO! I have worked for them for the last 5 years and despite an early command it has been a very frustrating experience.

If you join as a DEP you will almost certainly be taking a pay cut if arriving from one of the UK charter outfits. As a cadet you will be so screwed by the poor pay and pay back conditions that it will take about 7 years to recover.

What fleet you are sent too is irrelevant we all work very hard eg long haulers on 900 hours and constantly jet lagged or short haulers on earlies and 4/5 sector days.

To add insult to injury you will find yourself working alongside some of the highest paid cabin crew in the business (and some of the worst thanks to the multitude of contracts) Do not be surprised to find that many of them will earn more than you despite the fact that we all sweat blood to get and keep our tickets!

There are plenty of other operators that really offer a better overall quality of life than BA.
Regards Bigpants

Hot Wings
1st Dec 2001, 18:15
Bigpants - a sad but true post. The fact is that at BA approximately 1/3 of 3,600 pilots have been in the airline for less than 7 years and are on the "B" scale, taking home between £1,800 and £3,000 pcm. Longhaul cabin crew (new contract) take home about £2,000 (£2,500 old contract), pursers take home £2,500 to £3,000 and CSDs over £3,500. There are over 15,000 cabin crew. Its obvious why BA struggles to make any money!

All I can really say, though, is "well done BASSA". Shame on BALPA!

1st Dec 2001, 23:17
Well then Bigpants, when is your date of separation? I'm SURE there are PLENTY that would like to take your place.
For an airline, this is one of the BEST times to recruit crew...reasonably good selection and experience levels...and lower pay? A managers dream, then if they are bonded so they cannot escape(?), so much the better. And if treated properly...happy faces all 'round. :D :D

[ 01 December 2001: Message edited by: 411A ]

2nd Dec 2001, 11:29
411a perlease just give up

2nd Dec 2001, 14:02
Gotta say, I'm with Hot Wings and BigPants, Ba is the biggest pile of pants out there on the job market. Things have certainly changed. The pay is dire, status is practically zero, company morale is through the floor and we are overseen by a petty, small minded management. The last 5 years has been the biggest disappointment since the ribbed condom!
And furthermore, 411A, do us all a favour and go jump!

2nd Dec 2001, 14:10
Longhaul cabin crew (new contract) take home about £2,000 (£2,500 old contract), pursers take home £2,500 to £3,000 and CSDs over £3,500. There are over 15,000 cabin crew. Its obvious why BA struggles to make any money!

Hot Wings that sounds rather like sour grapes. Whatever the cabin crew are paid is their biz and good luck to them. If they're making more than the cockpit crew then you would be better pursuing a raise for yourselves than trying to drag them down.

PS I have absolutely nothing to do with cabin crew, BA or otherwise, but this principal is a basic tenet of industrial relations.

2nd Dec 2001, 15:02
I'm a CSD on longhaul at LHR and I have never ever taken home £3500.00.
Infact last month I took home £1960.00.less than one of your so called new entrants on a basic of £9000.00. In fact far from taking home £2000.00 a month, many of the new entrants are currently looking for alternative work because they can't aford to live.
Get your facts right and you won't feel so hard done by.

2nd Dec 2001, 17:26
So what is the latest news about the BA cadets being seconded to CitiExpress? How long will they operate the regional aircraft before moving over to mainline? Also will the door swing both ways, i.e would the existing regional guys and galls have the opportunity to move to London? :p

3rd Dec 2001, 20:50
Cadets seconded for 2 yrs.

There may be a chance for the door to swing both ways at some point - Scope clause under negotiation with BALPA at present.

4th Dec 2001, 12:03
411A have been busy hence delay in reply however here it is. I have applied to several prospective employers, turned down one interview waiting for another and I am thinking about an offer from a small regional operator to join as management.

Why? because what I said in my previous post is true and those that follow us all into BA are going to learn the hard way. Secondly I really have grave doubts about it's long term viability it is hopelessly overmanned and cannot afford to make people rendundent in order to reduce its costs.

BA is no more resistant to collapse than many other equally good companies who have gone under in the past.
Regards Bigpants

4th Dec 2001, 12:24

"I'm a CSD on longhaul at LHR and I have never ever taken home £3500.00.
Infact last month I took home £1960.00.less than one of your so called new entrants on a basic of £9000.00. In fact far from taking home £2000.00 a month, many of the new entrants are currently looking for alternative work because they can't aford to live.
Get your facts right and you won't feel so hard done by." :o

Clearly you are part time! and seeking to mislead1
My wife is a BA purser - 33% part time - and earnt £16k last year.
Even American crews don't earn as much as BA cabin crew.



4th Dec 2001, 13:34
Well: just to add to gloom, I saw a brokers note recently relating to BA doubting that it could survive in its current form (i.e. with the mountain of debt bequethed by Rob [email protected] and our current dire cashflow). After well over a decade with Big Airways I concur with the comments from those "inside" that I have read on this board.

"Sauve qui peut" seems appropriate right now.

4th Dec 2001, 18:57
Well Bigpants, have to admit I was wrong about you.
Your conclusion about BA (and other very large overstaffed airlines, especially with far too many middle managers, and grossly overpaid cabin crew)is without a doubt absolutely correct. In the airline business today, ONLY the lean and cost effective will survive the long term and make reasonably good returns for their investors.
It never ceases to amaze me how many carriers fail to notice the problems (or just ignore them) until it is too late...or in the case of (for example)two large European carriers disappearing due to fraud and corruption, not to mention gross mismanagement.
When you get in that management position, see if you can make a difference. It ain't easy, but well worth the effort.

5th Dec 2001, 03:18
We shall miss you, Bigpants, when you go...always sad to see one of the good guys disappear. Sadly, I feel BA will lose more until they get their management act together. Starting to look around myself...

5th Dec 2001, 15:15
So then, what's the stae of play with CEPs who were in the system but had yet to start a type conversion? Obviuyosly some of those have completed Jet Orientation / MCC courses and can be picke dup at little or no notice to start type courses.

However, are BA doing this (I have heard rumours but not from what I regard as a reliable source inside BA)? If so, how many and if/when will they restart JOC/MCC? Are these people going to BA or subsidiaries? Or are BA just retraining people laid off from other fleets that have had aircraft cut?

Would any relaible source care to comment?

5th Dec 2001, 19:25
The Cabin Crew situation is an absolute disgrace within BA, at both ends of the scale. I know new entrants who, if given poor rosters (i.e. expenses) earn less than an office temp. However, with average rosters (and I know this as I live with 2 new contract C/C) they take home between £1,200 and £1,500 a month which is a fair wage for the job.

As for the high end, I admit I can't confirm this, but a longhaul skipper once told me the old contract CSDs can earn £55K pa at the top end of the scale which if true is absolutely obscene for the job description. No wonder money haemorrages out...

5th Dec 2001, 19:27
BA Citi Express are now taking some of the CEPs onto their turboprop fleet. Citi Express is short of crews but cannot recruit externally due to the BA recruitment ban, so I guess it makes sense to second some of the CEPs. A course was scheduled to start on 4th December

5th Dec 2001, 21:49
At one level I am glad that the CEP's are being at least offered positions within the franchises but.....how long will they they stay there and how easy will it be to get out?

This type of thing has happened before and on your first day at "Brymon" what do you do if they stick one of their contracts under your nose to sign? I hope that BALPA keep a close eye on the interests of the new entrants...the Devil is in the detail!

6th Dec 2001, 12:00
Bigpants, your last comments, illustrate why the view of a few CAP's induces concern within the franchise's, when forced to recruit from out of work BA CAP's.
Why would a company wish to employ people who are unhappy from the outset?
Although, probably a view held only by a few, it is an unfortunate fact of life, that some inexperienced people are unable to recognise when they are presented with an opportunity, not afforded many people in the world of aviation, especially in the current climate. There are those who feel that the world owes them a living and there are those who will do as little as possible because they feel they are undervalued. In the majority of cases, I feel that a reality check is needed.
Now, don't get me wronge. We would all like to see the best possible terms and conditions of employment. The above comments apply to management as much as to anyone, ( some would say more so) and there are those with legitimate greavances, but for those, not sure whether they could force themselves to sign a franchisee contract of employment if offered, my comment would probably run something along the line's of:- ' It's a free country. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!'. :cool:

6th Dec 2001, 16:42
Howdy all,
411A used to contribute all sorts of rubbish in the Fragrant Harbour forum. Seems he is at it again. Ignore him, we did.

Cheers from CX.

6th Dec 2001, 18:31

Just to let you know that I am full time. Let me tell you again I have never taken home £3500.00, and I don't understand my you find it hard to believe that I only took home £1960, last month, night stops dont pay that much in extras

My wife too is a Purser on shorthaul and works 33%, and she didn't earn 16k,last year,or for that matter any were near that.
Who does your wife know in cabin crew scheduling? Perhaps you would be good enough to let us both know so that we can earn some of this big money.

Hand Solo
6th Dec 2001, 22:56
You should get yourself up to the regions! I know of a junior steward (6 months experience) who took home £2K one month! It was more than me!

7th Dec 2001, 00:13
well there you go!

7th Dec 2001, 04:42
No partner, no life, no pilot's licence, no Sense.

Kurtis Chukle Willis
7th Dec 2001, 05:03
A few of our more computer savy friends in the Fragrant harbour Forum managed to find out the identity of 411a a few months back.Perhaps a search is in order!

"SOG" (Sad Old Git)

7th Dec 2001, 06:11
...and did it do them any good? NO, and the 49+ are STILL out of a job, and will be permanently in the stinky lagoon.
When pilots think that they run the company, well....the unemployment line is not far behind.
Flight crew will just have to realise that the world does NOT revolve around them, management is in charge (unions or no unions) and it will remain so forever. Times are tough guys, like it or not.

7th Dec 2001, 11:32
Dude you have not answered my points namely how long would these cadets end up in a franchisee and how hard would it be to get out?

Previous experience from the Gulf War indicates that they would be saddled with a dodgy contract that they might struggle to extract themselves from.

Last point as to why some of us view the Franchises with deep distrust. Not so long ago after our first year of operating the A319 at BHX the then chief pilot took us all out to dinner and told us what a good job we were all doing to make the new agreement work (5 sector days under training 10 sectors in 2 days on the line in and out of CDG)

Shortly afterwards brother Tim sliped off "to help out at Brymon" A year later and we have all been given our marching orders as our work is going to be handed over to BRAL Brymon.....and our former chief pilot is in charge of this new franchise.
Good luck to you all....enjoy the dinner in about a years time!

7th Dec 2001, 13:06
Time for a considerable amount of caution here. Future size and shape is due to report in mid January and is likely to come up with some uncomfortable reading. Having talked to one or two of Rod’s disciples, I would be extremely surprised if the findings are anything other than that we have a critical shortage of managers, and will find ourselves with 2-300 pilots in surplus.

Expect to see much shorthaul work given to BACE with no FHR for the crews, and redundancies by fleet surplus and not LIFO. I wish I could say I’m kidding. There’s a small of death around the Bouncy Castle.

Good Luck to all of us :(


[ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: Roobarb ]
Sorry, can't speel todai

[ 07 December 2001: Message edited by: Roobarb ]

7th Dec 2001, 14:01
I agree Roobarb.
This review is likely to be devastating, particularly for short haul.
With all the sub-divisions and wholly owned subsiduaries around, Mainline BA is under great threat. I hope that BALPA are readying for a fight.

As you say, if you ask a bunch of Waterworlders where cuts are needed it is very unlikely that they will see 6 senior managers per aircraft as excessive. No, they will see that cutbacks are necessary in the most overworked and underpaid pilots of any major airline.

When will they realise that the only advantage BA has is size, and that this great advantage is lost by fragmenting into little operations all doing the same job on different terms and conditions.

Long may their stream flow.

Kurtis Chukle Willis
7th Dec 2001, 14:26

I actually think you make sense most of the time,I certainly am not a strong union man.I still think you are a complete loser as you have nothing better to do than sit at your computer and harrass everyone.

I have news for you,your **** stinks too!


Amazon man
7th Dec 2001, 14:42

As one of your new colleagues workinh for Citiexpress I entirely agree with you in that no doubt much work will no doubt be signed over to BACE, but surely this was obvious when BA chose to buy BRAL.

However this is not a time to promote an us and them attitude, but a time to start working together.

Those of us in BRAL arent all in favour of whats happened, it looks like we are about to be offered new terms and conditions that aren't necessarily going to benefit us.

This is a time for both or all pilot groups within BA to work together and talk as one. voice

7th Dec 2001, 17:30
Big Pants,

(Once Again!) TEPs posted for 2 years. They are on Mainline contracts but CitiExpress allowances. Once 2 years is up they bid for a fleet in mainline. Some may want to stay.

7th Dec 2001, 18:32
If BA is short of pilots.
Does this mean it is a good time to apply?
Are they likely to be recruiting?

7th Dec 2001, 20:37
Amazon man yes I agree that we collectively have to do something because at present our working conditions are constantly being
eroded. I remain very disappointed with the performance of BALPA within BA but at the end of the day the support we get from them is reflected in who you vote in.

The quality and determination of candidates is extremely varied. Some do it for the best of reasons others have their own agenda.
In fairness and in anticipation of the replies no, as yet I have not stood for election but I am giving it some serious thought.

2 Years and then back into mainline ....well maybe but if some of the other posts are correct some of our CEPs may find themselves staying in Citi Express a lot longer. Anyone care to guess on the future size and shape of mainline?
Regards Bigpants
:) :) :)