Calling all aircraft owners - fixed costs?

[Big Night Sky]

Hello

I would appreciate some advice on some of the costs involved in operating a S/E aircraft.

Is there an annual registration fee payable to CASA? What about initial fees to put it in the register for the first time?

Any recommendations for Insurance brokers and finance companies that handle light aircraft?

Many thanks

[Arnold E]

Quite clearly I am not worthy, but what the hell is an S/E aircraft?

[Horatio Leafblower]

If the aircraft is off the register, it may cost you BIG bucks to get it back on - CASA will only charge $130 but its the things CASA requires that hurt.

We have (or rather, we manage/operate) a large twin that fell off the register 12 months ago because he owner didn't know arse from elbow.

It will take a FULL 100-hourly inspection + re-weigh + airworthiness compliance survey (checking all ADs etc are complied with) to get it back on the register - all up, about $20,000. :eek:

Damn glad I'm not paying THAT bill.

For a SE aircraft, expect an additional fixed cost - each year your LAMEs will give you a $1500 "surprise". :uhoh:

Other fixed costs are Insurance (about $3k); (at least one) annual inspection; "season pass" for landing fees at your home aerodrome; and that's about all I can recall after half a bottle of red.



(thread drift... if we are giving advice based on our professional experience, is PPRuNe-ing a SSAA? Or only if we are PPRuNe-ing on the airside? :confused:)

[Horatio Leafblower]

An SE aircraft is a World-war I aircraft, such as the SE5A.

Obviously, you are NOTworthy. :suspect:

[Arnold E]

Quite clearly I am not worthy, But, not only do I not know what an S/E arcraft is, but what is SSAA. Jeez am I sighning for stuff i dont know about, clearly the answer is YES:eek:

[j3pipercub]

They're on their way Horatio, be prepared to play the blow up balloon game :)

[Arnold E]

H.L.
clearly you are right.

[maverick22]

Arnold, are you not a pilot?
SSAA = Safety Sensitive Aviation Activity:ok:

[Arnold E]

Indeed I are a pilot, AND ingerneer (once upon a time I couldn't spell it), and have only learnt tonight how much I dont know, scary realy( Hmm 1 l or two, two I think).:eek:

[flog]

Big Night Sky,

Insurance
Hangarage
Cleaning / washing
Registration transfer (one off)
100 hourly / annualAlso, make sure you include any time life'd items in the fixed costs.
For example:

paint
hoses
prop (factor it in if you don't intend to run it out of life before time...)
radio / instrument checks
corrosion checks (assuming it's not a new aircraft and someone, somewhere in the world finds a cracked spar on your model plane in the near to medium term)
and there's more but I'm not on my PC with the uber spreadsheet.Cheers,
Flog.

[Arnold E]

I think thats funny, 60 years old, cpl and been in engineering almost forever and own a "S/E" aircraft and have never seen single engine as S/E, goes to show you can learn something every day. As for SSAA, phuut! never heard of it.

[maverick22]

Yeah you learn something new everyday in aviation. As for SSAA, that's a newbie from CASA regarding AOD testing (ha... there I go again. That's Alcohol and Other Drugs).

Sorry for the extreme thread drift folks... :hmm:

[Big Night Sky]

Yeah, that's hilarious Arnold! Here's another one for you old mate.....ever heard of M/E? Now I'm not gunna give you any clues, you have enough material to work with.

Back to the point though, thanks to those who have contributed. I'll go back to one of my original Q's (that's a 'question' Arnold). Is there an annual registration fee (like for a motor vehicle)? I have searched the CASA website and all they seem to tell you is how much they love to charge you just to get off their ar*ses and submit an application for just about everything!

As far as an annual maintenance inspection is concerned, generally how long and what is involved with this?

Thanks again

No junk mail please!

[rioncentu]

There is NO annual registration fee from CASA.

Annual - Well depends how bad your S/E (A) is. Have had them in and out in a week or as long as 2 months. Really going to depend on the state of the plane and what you want/need done.

Allow a decent time and lot of $$ for your first annual. Your LAME is going to find things that the last LAME didn't. Not to say they are bad things, just things he wants to address that others didn't.

[Arnold E]

Lighten up, livened things up for a while didnt it?

[By George]

I have a friend with a C185 and he says 30,000 a year for about 100 hours of flying. (total costs). Is that reasonable? Seems a lot to me. The other 'problem' is convincing 'she who must be obeyed', "havn't you had enough of flying?"...........etc. Then worse, is having to deal with the Dept of changing names.

[ZEEBEE]

I have a friend with a C185 and he says 30,000 a year for about 100 hours of flying. (total costs). Is that reasonable? Seems a lot to me. The other 'problem' is convincing 'she who must be obeyed', "havn't you had enough of flying?"...........etc. Then worse, is having to deal with the Dept of changing names.

Not really outrageous if he's paying for hangarage at a major airport.

My Auster costs about $10,000 per year for approx 50 hours but I get free hangarage.
So it costs me approx $200 per hour, but that's without inclusion of engine overhaul (due) and props etc.
I haven't added those in for fear of what they represent but it would probably add another $20 per hour.

[Mr Milk]

BNS

All costs will vary from type to type.
Have you owned before? do you want private usage or will it be on line/for hire to others? Do you need hangarage? Do you need insurance?(not everyone insures their aircraft) Do you want a "go somewhere with people and baggage" aeroplane or will a "get up and look around with the occasional fly away" ultralight suit you?

Need to ask yourself plenty of questions before deciding upon type, but when you do make that decision pay the engineer WHO WILL BE MAINTAINING the aeroplane to look it over and tell you what they would be doing to it in the near future if they were maintaining it.

No good you buying joe blow's 182 because the engineer that has maintained it for 25 years gave it a clean bill of health. Engineers get complacent too and when you take it to your local LAME he might ****can the corrosion in the wings that the other lame has looked at for the last 10 years and kept saying "next year" to.

Hope this aids you in your decision.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Calling all aircraft owners - fixed costs?

What fixed costs? there are none.. everything in GA is completely out of control!

Think of a number double it, treble it, whatever, you'll be wrong. Once you learn to live with that idea you'll be fine. Small S/E aircraft generally cost much less than big complicated ones is about all I have learned over the years. There's no predicting costs by age or hours. All LAME's are different and charge you more and take much longer than you think because the last one was an idiot and did it all wrong and then they tell you how lucky you are bringing it to them, even if they did take 3 months to do a 100hrly whilst they fart around doing the the big guys jobs.. They are MUCH quicker at taking your aircraft to pieces than putting them back together again.... - and generally go deaf if you dare to think in terms of modern concepts like customer service. Cheaper ones are NOT usually worse than expensive ones. You know you might have a good one when the prop does not fall off on the first flight after a 100hrly.

Insurance? Ask for a quote. Start with QBE Aviation, then try Brokers like Marsh. They're all much of a muchness. Very little competition in this country. Really aircraft ownership is just an open invitation to receive awful service and be ripped off by whoever you deal with, airports, air services, fuel suppliers, so called 'engineers' parts suppliers, manufacturers.. you name it! I just can't understand why I keep doing it!

Numbers? No idea! say doing the usual 100hrs per year or so - a 150 might cost $12K a 210 might cost $35K (+ the unexpected)

[VH-XXX]

Perhaps you could suggest a particular aircraft type so the armchair experts can help you with a more refined pricing expectations (particularly those here commenting in detail that have never owned an aircraft).

PS: Get a good hangar so this doesn't happen.


http://users.netconnect.com.au/~njah1/Ouch1.jpg

[Big Night Sky]

Thanks to all for the info. Good stuff Re-entry!

[M14_P]

By george,

Those figures are absolutely horrendous - $30K to maintain a C185 doing 100hours / year?

I am no engineer but am an aircraft owner. Our machine is experimental but even so, wow...I am never gonna by a C185 then....What sort of hourly (dry) costs would one be looking at then?

[Two_dogs]

Single engine lightly doing 4-500 hrs/yr commercial ops.
Total maintenance costs,

Financial year ended 05
26K
Financial year ended 06
27K
Financial year ended 07
28K
Financial year ended 08
30K
Financial year ended 09
38K

09 included a few extras obviously, so around 30K plus % increase each year

Fuel 35% of total operating costs
Maintenance 30% of total operating costs
Getting out soon ... priceless

[spirax]

Interesting comments... I have owned a S/E aircraft for 35 yrs and have learnt very early that the most important part of containing costs is to have an engineer that knows what he is doing, knows the aeroplane type, is honest and lets you do some of the work like gut the cabin and remove panels etc... that certainly saves a bit and you get to know the a/c in the process.

Whatever you get, the first inspection will be the costly one as any engineer seeing it for the first time will usually go over it with a fine tooth comb. After that (if u stay with the same chap) then the costs should be better. Does not pay to move about, so get it right first time up! Avoid the larger workshops unless you are happy to pay for all their overheads etc.

Fixed costs I take to mean those that occur even if the a/c does not fly. This would be annual inspection, insurance and parking/hangarage if applicable. Remember the tyres usually go flat quicker if you don't fly!!

My costs have never exceeded $1500 for an annual inspection and I have used 4 engineers in that time. I never exceed 100hrs pa. Back in the days of a major inspection (3yrs) they sometimes cost a couple of grand. These days I find it is a good idea to rip it apart and do a big one about every 10 yrs - especially if the a/c is getting old.

Insurance has been covered, but you are mad not to at least get ground risks and libility coverage. Anything more than 3% for the hull and you are been diddled!

My hangar cost close to $60k at a country field with no landing charges and it makes a great shed for all sorts of things. I don't cost that into my a/c costs.

Once you start flying, in addition to fuel & oil, landing & ATC charges etc., you have to consider additional annual/100hrly inspections if you exceed 100hrs pa, provision for engine and prop o/h and any other components with a life limit and radio & E&I maintenance and inspections.

Provision for overhaul or replacing lifed components should be estimated well above what they cost now. Plan ahead and source such stuff well in advance.

One has to remember that to justify private ownership you usually have to multiply the lot by what I call a "fun factor"...! That usually cancels out everything else. A bit like having a boat, but you don't get wet!!


enjoy....:):):ok::ok:

[Timocracy]

If it fly's, floats or F***'s. Rent it.

[185skywagon]

I have a friend with a C185 and he says 30,000 a year for about 100 hours of flying. (total costs). Is that reasonable? Seems a lot to me. The other 'problem' is convincing 'she who must be obeyed', "havn't you had enough of flying?"...........etc. Then worse, is having to deal with the Dept of changing names.

By george,

Those figures are absolutely horrendous - $30K to maintain a C185 doing 100hours / year?

I am no engineer but am an aircraft owner. Our machine is experimental but even so, wow...I am never gonna by a C185 then....What sort of hourly (dry) costs would one be looking at then?

The 185 is more robust and easy to maintain than most 100 series, as long as they looked after. You will always have some big surprises if something has been neglected.

Aircraft that fly less than 100 hr/year often cost much more per hour than aircraft that fly more.

My 185 costs around $33K/750 hr (excl fuel) for maintenance and insurance.
That works out at $44/hour. Not too bad really.
That doesn't allow for engine/prop replacement($60K/1700hours) say $35/hour.

Total real cost including around $120/hr fuel(say $2.00/L)= $199/hr.
300hp machine, I'd say that wasn't too bad.