DOTARS changes jump seat requirements

[Keg]

A new directive out to QF from DOTARS that only those on 'duty' travel are permitted to access the flight deck jump seats. No leisure travel at all. Commuting crew are counted as 'duty' for this purpose. It's not yet official policy but I reckon the FSO is being drafted as I type this out.

Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.



The DOTARS directive seems to be consistent with the past practise though. As long as we appear to be doing something- even if it has no tangible effect on security- then we can plead that we're doing the 'right thing' because it's 'something'. It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities. Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!

Morons. How my missus or kids are more of a security threat than the other employee who needs to travel to Melbourne for 'duty' (and just happens to be publishing terrorist stuff on the internet in his spare time) I have no friggin idea. :ugh:



Why it is that a pilot (or anyone else permitted to access the flight deck on duty) is permitted access on duty but not at any other time has got me flummoxed.

Have DJ crew had anything similar come down range yet?

[rmcdonal]

I don't think CASA should be allowed to jump, they cause undue stress to the operating crew and thus have a negative effect on the safety of flight. :E

Im not even going to get started on the security screening stuff :mad:

[blueloo]

Something needs to be done or this crap will continue.

Whilst it will cause pain for commuters - I think all crew should impose a ban on all jump seat riders. When planes can't fly because commuters can't make it, then the company may step into bat for us. If QANTAS wants it changed, it will be done.

[assasin8]

Well, the rule makers aren't brain surgeons for very good reasons!!!:rolleyes:

"Serenity now!":mad:

[astroboy55]

It really sucks that this is happening, however i dont think commuters should be given special treatment. If you choose to commute, thats your problem. If it looks tight, then in my opinion, you should have to buy a full fare ticket (unless flight deck access is made available to ALL staff travel tickets again...)

With respect blueloo, i think the company would sooner drag you in and give you a lecture about your responsibilities rather than try and change it all!!

[ad-astra]

Yes

VB have also incorporated the new rules into their Flight Deck access policy.

Some VERY pi**ed off crew!

I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.

How DOTARS could possibly believe that having a third pilot in the cockpit is a security issue is beyond me.

They would rather have a 19 year old 40 Kg size 2 princess "guarding" the open cockpit door than having a 100 Kg SEATED pilot stopping an intruder.

You physically can not get into the 737 Cockpit if the JS is being used!

IDIOTS.

[Capt Kremin]

All Pilots and Cabin crew (in QF at least) do security training. That and a valid ASIC make them an asset, not a liability should the worst happen.
Perhaps a concerted campaign along those lines should be run by AusALPA?

[Jabawocky]

Ad-astra
Been a few times in history when the extra crew member was a worthwhile asset!

Keg

It makes a joke of the ASIC card in my view. We all have them, and get screened the same, yet...if you asked me to join you on the deck of your B767, that would be a bad thing! :=

So is your ASIC card more secure than mine??

When will the stupidity end?? The industry has lost a number of valuable resources who got the sh!ts with all this BS and retired. Now they just want to p!$$ off those remaining with more idiotic rulings.

Why not suggest you will all go on strike.....

[Worrals in the wilds]

More pedantic crap from Dotars (or whatever the :mad: they're called this week), just when you thought it couldn't get any sillier. Give it another year and it'll be a requirement for flight crews and rampies to work in the nude so they can't hide weapons.


I understand there are already attempts by AFAP and AIPA to have the policy modified.

I think there needs to be more of this. The trouble is, aviation workers all complain here and to each other, but it rarely reaches the public arena.

The recent aviation security screening review listed a surprisingly high level of public support for the current procedures, and I have a hunch that the department is merely looking at that and saying 'well, everyone's cool with it, the staff are just whingers' :ugh:.

They are yet another department that seems incapable of risk-assessment, discretion and common sense.

There's a limit to what we can achieve as individuals, but if the various employees' associations could get cracking with this we might get some common sense back in the equation.

[Metro man]

Just started in Singapore as well. Used to be able to travel on the jumpseat if in uniform and approved by the chief pilot. Now forget it :(

[twiggs]

Well done DOTARS. The USA (apparently they were the ones that actually did have the security issue with their flight decks 8-ish years ago) still permit FOC travel for other pilots on other airlines at any time and for any reason but we have to go and be considerably more restrictive than their practises. The threat must be far more significant here in Australia.

It must be because aircrew are exempt from LAG restrictions in the US but not here.

[tipsy2]

As usual Dotars and the AG's dept can't tell the difference between Aviation Security and Aviation Safety.

The former does not guarantee the latter and the latter is paramount.

The chairwarmers that think they are doing the former will not be satisfied until we all board aircraft stark naked carrying nothing and with a BarCode tattood on our foreheads containing all our travel details and passport/visa stuff.

tipsy
:yuk:furball:yuk::yuk:

[airtags]

the new regs make an interesting contrast to the QF policy (ie duty travel)

None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.

Jump seats - the new about to be introduced powers for the ATSB that will have us all writing reports for a pax whose bag fell out of a locker (will gladly comply as I rekon they will be so swamped that they will abandon the idea after 1 week)

Of course when things do go pear shaped the good Minister can confidently claim: ......."I have requested an immediate report from the Dept as to how this [insert tragedy] occurred"

Stand by for the CASA reforms.......

Welcome to the nanny country - unless you are flying under a foreign AOC then it's a case of ....."do as you please"

AT :E

[Angle of Attack]

None the less the real issue is that too much of the aviation portfolio is being delegated by the Minister to the realm of the bureaucrats.

Exactly but you can put that description to every single department in Australia also!

While our economies lurch from crisis to crisis our so called departments continue to make irrelevant useless decisions in all industries! The reason? Too many idiots and lawyers in middle management positions! Meanwhile even though there is some red tape in Asia overall they have a more practical approach and that is why they will take over from the old western civilisation. We sit here crapping on about almost useless information while they are doing the real work.

If I was on an aircraft I would much prefer there was a jumpseat rider there because one of the pilots knows them well rather that a so called "duty" traveller rules that fall under the guidelines of some stupid DOTARS dept.

DOTARS

Destructive, Overbearing, Terrible, Aviation, Regulatory, Service.

:ugh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

unless you are flying under a foreign AOC then it's a case of ....."do as you please"

Nope DOTARS did this to us 'foreign carriers' coupla years back.:ugh:

[CSTGuy]

Might I suggest that everyone give "feedback" to DITRDLG (ex DOTARS ;)) via their website Website Feedback (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/utilities/feedback.aspx) .

Never has the department been more out of touch with the coal face.

If we can get some of the passionate people here on Pprune to aim their logic and professionalism at the Dept, just maybe the message just might get to the Ring Masters running the circus. Then again there's always ACA, TT, Lateline, Aust. Story., QandA, The730Report, FourCorners, or maybe I should get The Chaser onto it.

As a classic example of the useless policy of ballitic residue testing crew, a few years ago the guy I was flying with was pulled over for a ballistics swab check in Melbourne. My learned colleague said that he was more than happy to be swabbed but stated that "its a bit silly carrying something to get control of the aircraft, when I already have control of the aircraft". To which the highly educated, highly trained lass procalaimed to us that "well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "

QED. :ugh:

[topend3]

you are all out of touch as DOTARS does not exist.

Try the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, or DITRDLG.

[Capn Bloggs]

you are all out of touch as DOTARS does not exist.

Except the poster above you, TE3.:}

[Guptar]

Does it also mean that somoneone who sets up an airline, ie owns he business. but is not a pilot cant ride up front.

What if he were to say, to DOTARS, I own it, its my aeroplane, I;ll sit where I want.

[Mr. Hat]

Keg, I dare say Captain Al Haynes from the Sioux City DC10 crash might agree with you as well. But then again what would he know hey?

It'd be nice one day if they actually did try and do something that actually improved safety instead of dealing with these trivialities

CASA and DOTARS are all about ticking boxes and pretending to do things about safety when in reality all they do is make our jobs harder and make rules that a 5 year old could work a way around.

Screening of all persons accessing airside would be a great start!


I've been going on about this one for years and it has to be the most obvious example of the people in these useless government departments simply not giving a sh!t about anything but staying in a job.

It would be good if AFAP AIPA and the TWU could unite on fronts like this and say "enoughs enough Mr. CASA/DOTARS (what ever your name is) you don't know what you are doing get out of the way".

Rant over.

[mention1]

I was paxing on a flight a few weeks ago and a couple of DOTARs blokes came on board for a "surprize" inspection. One of the things they wanted/needed to check was the crew meals. So seals were broken to show them that there was no knife concealed in the box. :uhoh:

This no-one-in-the-jump-seat thing is the number one topic in the Crew Room at the moment and is rediculous. FOr example if a pilot is commuting down to, say, Sydney and will take the aircraft back as PIC, then one way he's bad, and the other way he's good :cool:

SOme pencil neck is trying to make a name for himself in Canberra and this should stop right now!

[Capt Fathom]

What is this obsession with riding in the jumpseat?

Pilot's up the front. Passengers down the back!

Pretty simple really!

[Flava Saver]

Well, I have left my 2 bobs worth on their website.

Maybe the unions REALLY need to pull together on this as a united front. This is why we are paying membership fee's guys!

(A little heavy handed, but if the unions/pilots said we weren't going to fly an airliner until the goverment fixed this ridiculous situation, im sure they wouldn't wan't the countries air system grinding to a halt in this economic climate.)

Unbelieveable. :ugh:

PS Capt Fathom...agreed, but when the jumpseat is your only chance of getting on a jet using your staff travel at times its invaluable. Not many perks some see it these days, but staff travel/commuting can be. On the flip side, its the fact they are TAKING the power off the skipper of the use of the jumpseat.

[coaldemon]

My understanding is that the Captain still has ultimate authority of who is allowed to sit in the jumpseat.

If the Union said not to fly because of the jumpseat issue I think you would find that not too many people would do it. Talk to the guys from 89 as they are particularly gun shy on that one.

[GE90115BL2]

it's taken 2 pages but Jaded has hit the nail on the head.

[mcgrath50]

The pilot unions (particularly the QANTAS one) seem pretty powerful, how many other unions check work patterns before they are allocated to staff? But then why when it comes to lobbying the government and getting media attention do they seem to fail?

They should (as much as I hate to say it, as I truly hate them :}) get some ideas from the Teachers Union, the ACTU and the AMA who always seem to be in the news.

[VBPCGUY]

Yes DJ have had the same information 'duty' travel now only allowed to fly in the cockpit, nobody on staff travel anymore, Ive flown jump once about 2 years ago from ADL-MEL, great experience.

[Mr. Hat]

These types are generally airline pilot wannabees that couldn't be because they never had the balls to go out and do it.

Somewhere in the world everyday a new rule comes out to take away a condition or perk that we used to have.

I hadn't been overseas for a while so imagine my surprise when i was given real cutlery! Australia: we really do like to make things as difficult as we can. There is a funpolice member on every corner.

[DutchRoll]

This reeks of a bureaucrat in DOTARS (rolls off the tongue much better than DITRDLG) taking up a senior position and trying to get noticed.

It will be his attempt to "stamp" a major decision on his reign. Naturally when you do this, the actual rationale, practicality, and any measurable effectiveness is completely unimportant. All that matters is that everyone knows about it and how you pushed it through.

I would love to see the documentation detailing the arguments used to institute this policy.

[WynSock]

"The Review concluded that the community does not adequately value the role of an aviation security screener. Screeners surveyed for the Review said they often suffer from both a lack of respect within the aviation industry and from conflicts with the travelling public. The Review supports any strategies for improving the public image and credibility of screeners by highlighting the critical and important nature of their work. A change of job title is being proposed to better reflect screeners’ specialist role and assist in the changing of community perceptions towards the vocation."



hehehehehhahahahah :}

[John Citizen]

"well it WAS the pilots that crashed those planes on September 11 ! "


If that is the way DOTARS/DITRDLG think, then why don't they just ban all pilots from anywhere near an aircraft ? :ok:

Better still, just ban all aviation activity full stop. :ok:

:mad:en morons

[no one]

Better still, just ban all aviation activity full stop

I'm sure it has crossed DITRDLG and CASAs mind...

[karl8434]

My view would be to have only operating crew access to flight deck, and jump seat only to be occupied when operationally required i.e line check, training SO etc.

You only have to cast your mind back to the fedex flight that Auburn Callaway (a Fed ex pilot riding in the jump seat) attacked the crew in an effort to gain control of the aircraft in an attempt try to spear dive it into the fedex premises at Memphis. He was about to get the sack from fedex.

In those days he was allowed to take on board a fishing spear gun and hammer which he belted the pilots heads in with!

Still the pilots gained control by use of restraint whilst injured and some aerobatics of the DC10.

After this incident FEDEX still allow employees to travel in the jump seat on or off duty for their personal travel.

Food for thought

Regards

Karl

[Worrals in the wilds]

Karl, I see your point but I think the spear gun and hammer were as much of an issue. A person in the cabin could wreak havoc with those items as well, although not as much as in the cockpit. A Flight Attendant visiting the flight deck for operational reasons could also go nuts in a similar fashion.
Additionally, that was one jumpseater out of how many zillions since the dawn of aviation?

IMO there seems to be a serious lack of risk assessment and a serious surplus of 'what might happen, if there were a zombie invasion and all the computers failed and the sun went black...' type thinking from the Government, while passenger trains and public buildings such as museums still have no screening whatsoever, despite larger numbers of people congregating.

I have a hunch that DwhateverRS won't stop until all the fun and rational discretion are squeezed out of aviation. :sad:

[Mr. Hat]

It is a good point you make karl. And the reality is that the industry is trying people's patience more and more so I guess you never know. But in that case what is to stop the person doing what they want on short final whilst in the seat?

Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.

[Worrals in the wilds]

How many serious threats have been thwarted since the increased aviation security? For that matter, how many before 9/11? My guess is absolutely none, because we would have seen a congratulatory two page colour spread in the recent report. Sure, plenty of weapons have been removed from dodgy people, but that hardly justifies the increasing level of craziness as the pre 9/11 measures (with some tweaking) did this adequately. IMO violent drunks / spacked out druggies are a far more tangible risk to aviation, as hardly a month goes by without some violent dork being carted off a flight in chains by the AFP. So why not ban alcohol on flights, as the Indians do (rhetorical question, disarm your flamethrowers:ouch:)? Because the government is not serious about aviation security. It’s far less trouble to come up with inane regulations that only affect aviation staff, a disjointed and quiet minority.

Australia does not have a serious terrorist threat. It has a potential terrorist threat (as anyone does these days) but it’s nothing compared to Turkey, Spain or Northern Ireland. In those countries (I’ve been to two of them) people entering shopping centres are routinely scanned, fast trains and museums have X ray screening and so on. If DwhateverRS are so concerned about Threats, why have we seen none of this here? An airliner carries a maximum of 530 people (or whatever they can cram into the super guppy these days) plus casualties on the ground. My local Westfield has a food court with greater capacity than that, and an entrance you could drive a semitrailer packed with explosives through. Where is the risk mitigation there? Are people removing their shoes to gain entry?

The government keep banging on about aviation security while they make our working lives harder and more dismal, yet they are happy to leave screening to poorly trained, often subnormal contractors supplied by profit focused companies. If they were serious about aviation security they would have brought the whole sad mess back under government control on 9/12, but they didn’t, and they aren’t. They just make pedantic, crappy decisions from the ivory tower in Canberra.

Unfortunately, the sort of droids that join these departments (speaking as a reformed droid) can’t see the forest for the microscopic bark analysis. That’s all cool until a tree falls on their heads, when instead of removing it and buying a chainsaw they’ll commission yet another expensive 300 page report that proves nothing and goes nowhere. :ugh:

[Merlins Magic]

A Flight Attendant visiting the flight deck for operational reasons could also go nuts in a similar fashion.

This will be the next thing to go. Any crew meals/drinks will have to be placed in the flight deck before departure and under no circumstances will there be access to/from the flight deck during flight. We'll be issued with an empty coke bottle to pee in and the crew rest will then be a swag on the floor at the back of the flight deck.:ugh:

Personally i think if they obseve the sterile cockpit policy then its a plus having them there.

Didn't seem to be of any use in the Q400 accident in Buffalo a few months ago.

I think it fair to say that the most frustrating thing in the industry is the inconsistancies. In the USA you can, in Australia you can't. In Cairns you need to remove your aerosole cans for inspection, in Sydney you don't. In Australia you need to remove your laptop from your bag but you can lave the cables in. In Europe you need to remove the laptop and the cables and in USA you don't need to remove either. Flight crew need to get screened, ground crew don't.

My favourite however is for us Regional guys. If the first sector after an overnight is from an unsecured port (ie Wagga/Gladstone) after we have landed in Sydney/Brisbane, the pax disembarked, we are required to take our overnight bag only (flight bag can remain in the aircraft) and walk unsupervised across the apron into the terminal and through security before we can go back to our aircraft and operate the next sectors.:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

yeah you could have a slot in the door that you push the meals thru :ugh:.

[assasin8]

What about the handful of pilots that have attempted suicide with the aid of said aircraft in the past?

I know, let's ban everyone from the flightdeck!!! :rolleyes:

Just think of the weight saving! HUGE saving in greenhouse gas emissions! No need for an extra two crew meals! No troublesome techies to get in the way of cabin service! Everyone is happy and the world will be a better place!:ok:

Now why didn't one of those shiny pants people in Canberra think of that???:D

[Angle of Attack]

My favourite however is for us Regional guys. If the first sector after an overnight is from an unsecured port (ie Wagga/Gladstone) after we have landed in Sydney/Brisbane, the pax disembarked, we are required to take our overnight bag only (flight bag can remain in the aircraft) and walk unsupervised across the apron into the terminal and through security before we can go back to our aircraft and operate the next sectors.

Your Kidding right? :sad:

That is even more stupid than a Wooden Barbeque..:ugh:

[airtags]

............never have subscribed to the nonsense that the bureaucrats know better..

That said, I would have thought though that a common standard for pax airside screening would offer more benefits to all concerned..........justification you ask? - why has stuff in the bottom of my flight bag been screened and passed by dozens different screening points over 6 months - only to be pulled up by one yesterday............then the security operator quietly said - "you should used the other line - it's less sensitive...."

Only one way to fix govt depts keen on controlling things - give them something to do [ATSB staff take note: tonnes of incoming paper with IRM's & RRM's coming your way soon]

[assasin8]

I know the answer to this one folks... We just need to act more like politicians... Look at where their childish antics have got them... Hot meals on all 20 min sectors! Hair dryers in the middle of combat zones! Larger beef stew portions in the canteen!

We just need to rant and rave until we get our way! It works for them...:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Here is what happens in Europe: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/372687-balpa-challenge-id-cards.html

[DARK.LORD]

This is all a bit silly boys. If the bad DOTARS man sees you sitting on the jumpseat, provided you have your ID, you are fine. The bad DOTARS man has no idea if you are on duty travel or not. He doesnt get a copy of your rosters.

Advice: If the DOTARS man askes you if you are on duty travel, answer YES!

As long as you look the part, they wont bother you. we've been doing it this way for years, and will keep doing it this way for years to come.

[greenslopes]

If only it were that simple D.L. Most airlines provide their crew with a briefing report which lists those on duty for the flight. If your names not down you aint coming in!!.........Are we a night club or an aeroplane?

[greenslopes]

why is it the ones who shout loudest have the weakest argument.
For info I've worked for airlines throughout Europe and Asia and was always supplied with a briefing report......perhaps its time you worked for a real airline.
Oh and they have removed the authority from the captain to admitting whoever they want. Yes the Capt still has the final say, but they have removed the right of choice.
Also if you read the statutory Doc's they have made it an offence of strict liability. I'll let you read up and make your own opinion

[porch monkey]

Only took 3 pages for some knob to start pissing on about who's airline is better. What actually was your point re Virgin? And what relevance to the thread, pray tell? This issue affects all airlines here, maybe you should read the legislation. The captain no longer has that authority. As was pointed out to you. Please try not to be a complete knob, and contribute meaningfully. Of course, If you're not employed under australian rules, then you don't have to concern yourself, do you.:hmm:

[dirtysidedown]

I dont and I dont.

I think your OPs manual will specify whos allowed in. That is accepted and approved by your regulator and is the approved system.

Regardless of DOTARS.

[hoss58]

Morning all.

It would appear Dork Lord, sorry Dark Lord may have deeper pockets than most and will be happy to pay the infringement fine ( $5000.00 springs to mind. Please correct me if this is not right) when he commits the transgression.

Regards to all

Fly safe and play hard

Hoss58

[GaryGnu]

The Explanatory Statement to the Amended Regs specifically refers to the loophole, expolited by some, that allowed a person not ordinarily authorised to be on the flight deck to enter before take-off and exit after after landing and claim the regs were not being broken.

Is it possible that if everyone had complied with the intention of the previous regulations (i.e. just allow employees on the jump seats) then the regs would never had to have been ammended that closed this loophole and further restricted the use of jumpseats.

[hongkongfooey]

Ha !! and I thought China had cornered the market in draconian rules, this one is a top ten :ok:
Somebody mentioned the Fedex flight as a good example of why not to let people travel on the flight deck, using that rationale, nobody should be allowed on an aircraft at all, as all sorts of people from all walks of life have caused dramas in aircraft over the years, both in the flight deck and cabin.
We ( as yet ) have received no advice that we cannot travel on the J/S to Oz, currently anyone in the company including relations can travel, which makes even the previous moronic Dept Of Tossers And RSholes rules seem pathetically restrictive :mad:

[Angle of Attack]

Greenslopes
If only it were that simple D.L. Most airlines provide their crew with a briefing report which lists those on duty for the flight. If your names not down you aint coming in!!...

Umm Yes it is that simple WTF are you going on about? The new rules allow people on staff travel to access the jump if they need to go to work or attend any company business not jusst duty travel related to that particular aircraft. So someone could be travelling somewhere for work that day or maybe next? going to a meeting? a sim? etc, no captain can know if its related to duty or not. FFS you could say you are on duty if your going to check your mail box ffs, that is what is so stupid about this ruling. Its not on duty travel exclusively for that flight its any staff claiming they are using the jump for work.

As far as I am concerned DL is perfectly right Dotars dont know $rap, have your ASIC and say your using it for work related purposes and they have not a leg to stand on! (I am going to work to study! ^^; ) lol they will never and can never win!

[greenslopes]

Agreed AoA but the problem remains is it a legitimate duty? I think DOTARS is being vindictive in their application of this ruling, however unless I see a name on my duty sheet I cannot afford to pay the penalty incurred via a breach of aforementioned. I don't agree with it I'm merely pointing out that strict liability penalties mean you are guilty till proven innocent. In order to clear yourself you have to apply to the administration appeals tribunal, I for one have better things to do. Are you prepared to be the Guinea Pig?
It would be great for compromise to be reached, but given how much most people(except those who realise there is more to the job than epaullets and fancy hats) resent Pilots, don't hold your breath.

Ooroo

[Ivasrus]

I'm guessing this has put the kybosh on ATC famils?

[Razor]

I thought they were allowing staff travel on the jumpseat if you were going to/from work - as an exemption. If that is the case carry a copy of your roster.

[Ken Borough]

Commuting between base and home is NOT Duty Travel.

Duty Travel is where the employer has a requirement for an individual to travel somewhere at its request, expense and direction. Commuting does not fit this criteria.

Let's face it, why should an employer, or Government regulator for that matter, have to worry about making special provision for its staff to get to work. Live where the work is or find another job but don't bang on like spoilt brats about the problems associated with commuting.

[Lookleft]

Commuting between base and home can hardly be considered leisure travel either. Commuting is a part of the airline lifestyle for those who want to do it. Thats why "Commuting contracts" are offered by some of the more flexible airlines. Airline managers in this country are the people who need to accept it and make it work for the benefit of both parties. Given that aviation jobs are no longer as stable as they once were then the concept of commuting is a way of keeping the family happy and the career progressing.

On another point, given that pilot incapacitation is the most common cockpit emergency then having someone in the jumpseat who is familiar with the environment would in fact enhance safety.

['holic]

If your child was back in the cabin and there was some kind of terrorism event occurring, who here could say with certainty they wouldn't open the flight deck door? Wouldn't the best way to prevent this from happening be having your kids on the flight deck in the first place?

BTW has Askew gone, or was that just a rumour?

[Mr. Hat]

DC-10 Sioux City. Case closed.

[Qanchor]

BTW has Askew gone, or was that just a rumour?

Given this new ruling on jumpseat use, one couldn't be blamed for thinking he's gone to DOTARS. :rolleyes: