BBC TV segment on US Regional airlines safety

[Old Lizzy]

"Pilots shouldn't be coming to work tired" Stunning....

BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | US regional airlines under scrutiny (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8041357.stm)

[Stop Stop Stop]

For once a good piece of journalism from the BBC on aviation.

Fatigue is in my opinion, a much bigger problem to the industry than the current fixation with alcohol. As airlines try to make more money in a competitive market they have to work their crews harder and closer to the maximum hours to become efficient- on the beancounters' orders. The result is that from time to time that fatigue will manifest itself in the worst possible way as shown on the report.

All short haul pilots have suffered fatigue from time to time. Minimum rest between duties, noisy hotels, family life etc. all contribute.

My airline often schedule crews a minimum rest between flight duty periods and there is enough time to get eight hours sleep, but only if you can walk through the door of the hotel room, undress, climb into bed and fall asleep! Most can't and need time to wind down before sleep.

Operating at times of the body's circadium lows- getting up at 0300 to drive to work and fly a four sector day are not condusive to good sleep. The first early after a few days off is very hard. Earlies become easier as you get into a pattern of them over a few days- simply because you are so tired you just go to bed.

The only way to eradicate, or seriously reduce fatigue amongst crews is to provide more social rostering- i.e. later starts and more rest between duties. But will this happen? No, of course not- because it costs money and will require more crews. So fatigue is a way of life. Unless someone can come up with a better solution?

[WorldDC10]

The rules are much worse in the states than you endure in Europe. 16 Hour days, up to 8 hours of scheduled block time (can end up be much more with legal to start legal to finish) and minimum rest of 8 hours - doesn't take long for a US regional pilot to be fatigued after flying 5 or more legs that day in some of the most congested airspace in the world.

Glad I moved on from the regionals. The crews are great and I enjoyed the flying but the work rules leave a lot to be desired. As with all things only a disaster that is put entirely on fatigue will cause the FAA to change the rules.

[411A]

...later starts and more rest between duties.

More rest I can uinderstand, but...later starts?
Bankers hours, perhaps?

IE: If one wants bankers hours, become a banker.
Or, perhaps we should cancel all flights that begin prior to, say...noon.:rolleyes:

[Teddy Robinson]

Needing a second job to make ends meet makes a mockery of the "strict limitations" on pilot's duty time. It's economics pure and simple.

[Metro man]

There is a serious problem that these pilots work so hard during flying, they may not be alert enough to perform safely in their other jobs. They could fall off a ladder while shelf stacking in a supermarket, have an accident while driving a taxi or working on a construction site.

Of course the regionals could pay a living wage and not work them to max hours:hmm:

[eliptic]

Roger Cohen have right saying it is a individual responsibility

[PositiveRate876]

I'll never forget a few years ago flying with one FO. With a small child and wife on maternity leave, she issued him $18 from their tight budget to last him through a 4-day trip. $6 went to pay for parking at an airport two hours away from where he commuted to fly his shiny RJ.

That left him $4/day to live on! :eek:
He did have a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter that he brought from home, although the bread started to get a little moldy by the 4th day.

[Nicholas49]

Just ignore eliptic - he is being deliberately provocative (cross-reference his insightful and thought-provoking comments on the Air Canada captain thread). He is trying to wind you up. Don't rise to it.

[Checkboard]

It would have been better journalism if the BBC had compared the working time regulations in the USA with Europe - maximum time you can be on duty and still flying, compared with minimum rest. Pointing out the complications in not having a central regulation from the FAA unlike, say, Australia's CAO48 would have been beneficial as well.

[HarryMann]

Some of Capt. Sully's words to the Senate select committee might have been appropro too... ?

[Donkey497]

There's a simple solution to this problem, but it won't suit the bean counters. Simply legislate that anyone in any safety critical job whether it's flying a plane, controlling a chemical plant, driving a hazardous goods truck or runnig a nuclear power plant, cannot have more than one job (relatively simple to track via social security/National Insurance number & tax records). Likewise limit them to a maximum sixteen hour duty day with a 1.5 to 1.0 rest ratio, and a maximum 48 hour week averaged over four consecutive weeks.

It'd mean employing more staff, paying decent wages to the guys at the sharp end, rather than the bean counters who are after all carried on the backs of the folks doing the work. Above all it should mean better scheduling of shifts and duty rosters.

Tiredness is not purely an aviation issue. for example, the oil refinery almost next door to me changed hands three years ago. Under the previous multinational owner, the process operators worked on a rotating four shift system of ten days dayshift, backshift & nightshift with a day off between shifts followed by ten days off. Now under private ownership, it's been reduced to a two week 12 hr dayshift, nightshift regime, a day between shift changes and only a five day rest period. Holidays are now very difficult for guys to get as they need to get someone to cover for them from a much smaller pool of guys on their five days off rather than the bigger number available from a ten day rest period.

[eliptic]

Humpmedumpme


You totally ignore the two pilots they've interviewed aswell as the guy from the NTSB

First, no i have no bones to pick with pilots

2nd i was listening on all tape but still all sounds so ridicules, like pilots don´t have there own power to refuse the situation?

again, are there rules for working conditions stipulated or are there not?? or are the pilot just a marionette afraid losing the job to the next

Take it provocative or not, but please don´t feel as a "poor victim/pilot" being picked at again :ugh:

[INNflight]

like pilots don´t have there own power to refuse the situation?

Great way of thinking..... If you don't feel well rested, don't fly......do that five times and you're without job....now you can try getting a secondary job to your previous one :=

Smart man..... :suspect:

[eliptic]

If you don't feel well rested, don't fly

Why you was not rested?

do that five times and you're without job.

If this was my only option as a Passanger, you better lose your job


Ps. if i would find out flying with a "overtimed" crew i would sue the s..t out of that airline Ds

[speedrestriction]

This issue can not be blamed on the bean counters. Do the accountants decide on the manning levels? This is a problem for management, shareholders/owners and regulators. Unfortunately there are some "latent errors" that seem to be too expensive for companies to contemplate addressing. I would suggest that in a situation where chronic fatigue of crews can be reasonably foreseen by the regulator, if no remedial action is mandated and enforced, then the regulator should be jointly culpable for any damage, injury or loss of life which results.

sr

[411A]

Simply legislate that anyone in any safety critical job whether it's flying a plane, controlling a chemical plant, driving a hazardous goods truck or runnig a nuclear power plant, cannot have more than one job (relatively simple to track via social security/National Insurance number & tax records).
Might work in the UK, however certainly not in the USA...we have a constitution which prohibits such actions by the government, and if legislation was tried anyway, the first Federal court that it came before, would promptly strike such ill-considered legislation down.

PS: The US constitution was adoped just after the Brits were kicked out....long ago.

[lolopilot]

Unfortunately, Mr. Cohen forgot to mention some key facts he is well aware of.
Among which, junior manning which is now the norm instead of being the exception, companies (crew scheduling) not complying with the terms of pilots contract and provisions of the FARs as far as duty time and rest periods, retaliation and disciplinary measures in total disregard with labor (pilot) contracts and FAR against pilots refusing a trip or more often trip extension due to fatigue, and reduced rest periods becoming the norm instead of being the exception. That is only the visible part of the iceberg.
All of that being casually observed (ignored) by the FAA which, despite fatigue being cited as a contributing factor in many recent aircraft accidents, also fails to follow the recommendations made by the NTSB in that regard. Guess who pays the members of the Regional Airlines Association by the way.
As a pilot, no matter how hard you try to take care of yourself and how hard you try to get adequate rest between trips, airlines and the FAA are the ones to blame for what is currently happening.

[20driver]

This is complicated issue. From the public point of view it is win/win. Flying is safer and cheaper than ever. What is not to like?

Most people I know are stunned when they find out what RJ crews make. I suspect a lot of people, if they were in the know and had a real choice, would pay $20 more a ticket to fly with a higher paid crew. As a practical matter you don't have a choice of carriers on most RJ flights.

Flight time rules etc are all very well but they assume that the crew actually rest when they are not at the flying job. That is hard to achieve when you are making 20 K per year and need to live a life.

It is very easy to say don't take the job when you have a comfortable job you your own. As a pilot there a not a lot of options out there that will use that very expensive training.

Sadly I doubt it will change until there is a series of major accidents with crew fatigue being fingered as a leading cause.

It would not be without precedent for Congress to act. After 9-11 one of the big arguments in favor of establishing the TSA was better pay and working conditions would improve the quality of airport screening.

20driver

[411A]

As a pilot, no matter how hard you try to take care of yourself and how hard you try to get adequate rest between trips, airlines and the FAA are the ones to blame for what is currently happening.

Under this 'reasoning', the FAA might then be responsible for the alleged inability of lower paid First Officers to pay their bills, because they have a wife and a couple of children to feed.

It is not the FAA'a job to determine a pilots family life, it is up to the pilot to actually show some responsibility for his personal life.

IE: if you want bankers hours, become a banker.

Pilots have to work a completely different and often quite demanding schedule, and their personal family life had better not come in the way...otherwise a don't come Monday letter is arranged in short order.
IE: the respective airline pays for their pilot services, not family life.

Now, as to whether that lower pay is justified, many times it is not....yet, there are plenty of new(er) applicants who think it is.

Supply and demand at work.

[Old Lizzy]

"Most people I know are stunned when they find out what RJ crews make"

Colgan appears to be paying F/O's in first year maybe 21 bucks an hour.

That poor lady made, perhaps $25 bucks to fly that Dash 8 from EWR to BUF?

Dear God....no wonder she lived at home with her parents and husband on the other side of the country.

[downwindabeam]

Respectfully to all of you guys and in particular to 411's comments, I believe you guys are missing the point.

While more pay at the regional level and especially at the loading side of an airplane might be nice it is just the magnifier of a bigger problem.

The real issue is that there is no one to enforce anything anymore. The FAA has stopped enforcing any kind of a law and the form of retroactive punishments (using fines) does not help anyone nor does it change airline practices. More over considering the FAA is willing to look the other way about alot of these practices.

Reduced rest in the FARs was invented as a way to help an airline get back on track recovering from weather or some other schedule threatening event. Not as a normal everyday tool to be used by crew planning departments in advance. It should be mandated that these reduced rest nights cannot be scheduled in advance and have to be documented as to why they were needed, allowing only a very small quota per airline, per quarter.

It is a joke that after a 6-7 legs day (and yes we do that with the RJs thanks to 6 minutes takeoff to touchdown flights now days), you show up at an airport where the hotel shuttle takes 15 minutes each way, and once they arrive at the airport you need to be waiting for another crew or two or three or even four and only then be taken to the hotel. Wait until everybody checks in. Get your room key. Prepare mentally for tomorrow early show time because you need to be there at 5:10AM and the shuttle only runs every hour or half hour. So you end up taking a 4:30AM van.

I AM SORRY. THIS IS NOT REST. No matter how you want to look at it, you are absolutely not rested and there is no way to twist that.

Now add to all this bubble every day policies that the company mandates and the FAA approves without even reading.

For instance:

1) [let's start with something light here] - Flight numbers. Every now and then the regionals go about changing their whole numbering arrays as dictated by a mainline carrier. In my carrier we recently underwent such a thing. So now we have flight 3332 following flight 3133, following flight 3331, while flight 3342 is departing at the same time while flight 3242 is descending right on top of 3342 which just departed. You think I'm kidding? I can tell you which airport approach controls to monitor. Mix that with the above mentioned night's rest in instrument conditions and you got a disaster waiting to happen.

2) Food. FAA requires us to get food as part of the IMSAFE determination. Some of our planes don't even have cookies or crackers. Try to go get food at 5AM at any small town airport. Good luck.

3) What I like to call the Russian roulette. In several regionals you get policies by which you live. Some of them go to the extent of telling you that if you feel fatigued you should call it in, however between 24-48 hours after wards it is your responsibility to call your manager and talk about it. If you don't you get disciplinary action. If you do call it in on time, you are then granted the opportunity to present your case and if THEY deem it justified you are pardoned and get to keep your job with no actions taken against you. If they don't however, well you just won yourself another meeting to discuss the action that's about to be taken against you. I heard other people mention 5 times rule..... in some airlines it's as low as 3.

4) Many many more examples that I would love to document. If anyone is interested please feel free to contact me. I have rims of policies and approved airline manuals that are a laughing joke because it is so evident no one ever bothered to look at them closely before approving them.

[Jofm5]

Eliptic - a good name for you - your arguments go round in circles, I think I might just put you on ignore.


411A,

Under this 'reasoning', the FAA might then be responsible for the alleged inability of lower paid First Officers to pay their bills, because they have a wife and a couple of children to feed.




I can see the validity of your arguments, there are many families whereby the main bread winner of all different vocations are on minimum wage where the partner then also has to work to maintain a decent standard of living.

However the responsibilities of learning to fly, the training and expense involved, the level of maturity and professionlism required does lead me to believe that reduction of cost should be achieved without the expense of ruducing a professional's salary to that of a non professionally quallified role.

I think the question should not be whether the FAA should be establishing whether the flight crew have enough to live on, but whether the FAA are establishing all flights when departing have a safely rested crew performing the duties. If the FAA establish that there is an issue in this respect it is their role to mitigate such circumstances, whilst I would very much doubt a directive on salary would be a consequence some legislation on greater rest times could be brought in ensuring that sufficient rest has been achieved especially those with secondary roles to suplement their income.

Those working a second role to suplement their income would be required disclose this and to have sufficient rest before their primary role is undertaken (Forgive me if this is already the case I am not a pilot). This would definately have a fincancial impact on the low cost carriers and because as a result more crew would have to be brought onto the books. I think it would then lead the management with a decision as to whether to prevent this extra employment of resources by reducing the requirement for a second employment by paying better.

It think it is a whole can of worms really as this could lead to the hiring process being biased against those with families etc.

My overall thought on this is that for the situation to be truly corrected the only way is for the passengers to start paying a more appropriate fare for the journeys involved so that professionals can be paid appropriately. Our objective as SLF is to get from A to B safely and I dont think alot of us have any idea of the logistics of flying and the implications of the beating down of ticket prices - SLF are not typically aware what happened with this model in Indonesia and what corners were cut to attain such low prices.

[lolopilot]

Where did I imply this? Nowhere to begin with, so be factual. Pilots do their part, the FAA does not and casually ignores airlines wrongdoing.
The FAA primary duty is (or should be) to ensure air travel safety by enforcing existing regulations when and where it needs to be done. That is not the case to begin with. Any individual not complying with the law is accountable. Evidently, airlines management and the FAA are not.
The problem today is that, all regional airline pilots in the US have to deal with high levels of fatigue at some point during each trip due to either insufficient legal rules to prevent that from happening or lack of enforcement action from the authority in charge, namely the FAA. Now, here is the deal, you fly a four day trip with unexpected delays and resulting reduced rest periods at an outstation. What do you think happens after calling in fatigue a couple of times for that very specific reason. If you do not know, then you have no clue as to what regional airline flying is all about and here is the answer. You will end up being terminated, especially during your probation year and the airline is not even held accountable. Do you believe the FAA is not well aware of the problem? I flew for the regional for many years before moving to greener pastures and disgust is the only word that comes to my mind when I think about it.

[eliptic]

My overall thought on this is that for the situation to be truly corrected the only way is for the passengers to start paying a more appropriate fare for the journeys involved so that professionals can be paid appropriately.I will gladly do that if i i know the problem,,so would most SLF do i think

Maybe better to have a option "do you want a safe pilot flying" instead of the stupid C02 contribution when booking your ticket on line.

Ds. don´t shoot the messenger Ps

[Aceninja]

I hope they start paying the regionals more, you really can't survive in the states on $20k before tax....