BBC TV segment on US Regional airlines safety
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BBC TV segment on US Regional airlines safety
"Pilots shouldn't be coming to work tired" Stunning....
BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | US regional airlines under scrutiny
BBC NEWS | Programmes | World News America | US regional airlines under scrutiny
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For once a good piece of journalism from the BBC on aviation.
Fatigue is in my opinion, a much bigger problem to the industry than the current fixation with alcohol. As airlines try to make more money in a competitive market they have to work their crews harder and closer to the maximum hours to become efficient- on the beancounters' orders. The result is that from time to time that fatigue will manifest itself in the worst possible way as shown on the report.
All short haul pilots have suffered fatigue from time to time. Minimum rest between duties, noisy hotels, family life etc. all contribute.
My airline often schedule crews a minimum rest between flight duty periods and there is enough time to get eight hours sleep, but only if you can walk through the door of the hotel room, undress, climb into bed and fall asleep! Most can't and need time to wind down before sleep.
Operating at times of the body's circadium lows- getting up at 0300 to drive to work and fly a four sector day are not condusive to good sleep. The first early after a few days off is very hard. Earlies become easier as you get into a pattern of them over a few days- simply because you are so tired you just go to bed.
The only way to eradicate, or seriously reduce fatigue amongst crews is to provide more social rostering- i.e. later starts and more rest between duties. But will this happen? No, of course not- because it costs money and will require more crews. So fatigue is a way of life. Unless someone can come up with a better solution?
Fatigue is in my opinion, a much bigger problem to the industry than the current fixation with alcohol. As airlines try to make more money in a competitive market they have to work their crews harder and closer to the maximum hours to become efficient- on the beancounters' orders. The result is that from time to time that fatigue will manifest itself in the worst possible way as shown on the report.
All short haul pilots have suffered fatigue from time to time. Minimum rest between duties, noisy hotels, family life etc. all contribute.
My airline often schedule crews a minimum rest between flight duty periods and there is enough time to get eight hours sleep, but only if you can walk through the door of the hotel room, undress, climb into bed and fall asleep! Most can't and need time to wind down before sleep.
Operating at times of the body's circadium lows- getting up at 0300 to drive to work and fly a four sector day are not condusive to good sleep. The first early after a few days off is very hard. Earlies become easier as you get into a pattern of them over a few days- simply because you are so tired you just go to bed.
The only way to eradicate, or seriously reduce fatigue amongst crews is to provide more social rostering- i.e. later starts and more rest between duties. But will this happen? No, of course not- because it costs money and will require more crews. So fatigue is a way of life. Unless someone can come up with a better solution?
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The rules are much worse in the states than you endure in Europe. 16 Hour days, up to 8 hours of scheduled block time (can end up be much more with legal to start legal to finish) and minimum rest of 8 hours - doesn't take long for a US regional pilot to be fatigued after flying 5 or more legs that day in some of the most congested airspace in the world.
Glad I moved on from the regionals. The crews are great and I enjoyed the flying but the work rules leave a lot to be desired. As with all things only a disaster that is put entirely on fatigue will cause the FAA to change the rules.
Glad I moved on from the regionals. The crews are great and I enjoyed the flying but the work rules leave a lot to be desired. As with all things only a disaster that is put entirely on fatigue will cause the FAA to change the rules.
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...later starts and more rest between duties.
Bankers hours, perhaps?
IE: If one wants bankers hours, become a banker.
Or, perhaps we should cancel all flights that begin prior to, say...noon.
FTL
There is a serious problem that these pilots work so hard during flying, they may not be alert enough to perform safely in their other jobs. They could fall off a ladder while shelf stacking in a supermarket, have an accident while driving a taxi or working on a construction site.
Of course the regionals could pay a living wage and not work them to max hours
Of course the regionals could pay a living wage and not work them to max hours
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I'll never forget a few years ago flying with one FO. With a small child and wife on maternity leave, she issued him $18 from their tight budget to last him through a 4-day trip. $6 went to pay for parking at an airport two hours away from where he commuted to fly his shiny RJ.
That left him $4/day to live on!
He did have a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter that he brought from home, although the bread started to get a little moldy by the 4th day.
That left him $4/day to live on!
He did have a loaf of bread and a jar of peanut butter that he brought from home, although the bread started to get a little moldy by the 4th day.
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Just ignore eliptic - he is being deliberately provocative (cross-reference his insightful and thought-provoking comments on the Air Canada captain thread). He is trying to wind you up. Don't rise to it.
It would have been better journalism if the BBC had compared the working time regulations in the USA with Europe - maximum time you can be on duty and still flying, compared with minimum rest. Pointing out the complications in not having a central regulation from the FAA unlike, say, Australia's CAO48 would have been beneficial as well.
There's a simple solution to this problem, but it won't suit the bean counters. Simply legislate that anyone in any safety critical job whether it's flying a plane, controlling a chemical plant, driving a hazardous goods truck or runnig a nuclear power plant, cannot have more than one job (relatively simple to track via social security/National Insurance number & tax records). Likewise limit them to a maximum sixteen hour duty day with a 1.5 to 1.0 rest ratio, and a maximum 48 hour week averaged over four consecutive weeks.
It'd mean employing more staff, paying decent wages to the guys at the sharp end, rather than the bean counters who are after all carried on the backs of the folks doing the work. Above all it should mean better scheduling of shifts and duty rosters.
Tiredness is not purely an aviation issue. for example, the oil refinery almost next door to me changed hands three years ago. Under the previous multinational owner, the process operators worked on a rotating four shift system of ten days dayshift, backshift & nightshift with a day off between shifts followed by ten days off. Now under private ownership, it's been reduced to a two week 12 hr dayshift, nightshift regime, a day between shift changes and only a five day rest period. Holidays are now very difficult for guys to get as they need to get someone to cover for them from a much smaller pool of guys on their five days off rather than the bigger number available from a ten day rest period.
It'd mean employing more staff, paying decent wages to the guys at the sharp end, rather than the bean counters who are after all carried on the backs of the folks doing the work. Above all it should mean better scheduling of shifts and duty rosters.
Tiredness is not purely an aviation issue. for example, the oil refinery almost next door to me changed hands three years ago. Under the previous multinational owner, the process operators worked on a rotating four shift system of ten days dayshift, backshift & nightshift with a day off between shifts followed by ten days off. Now under private ownership, it's been reduced to a two week 12 hr dayshift, nightshift regime, a day between shift changes and only a five day rest period. Holidays are now very difficult for guys to get as they need to get someone to cover for them from a much smaller pool of guys on their five days off rather than the bigger number available from a ten day rest period.
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Humpmedumpme
First, no i have no bones to pick with pilots
2nd i was listening on all tape but still all sounds so ridicules, like pilots donīt have there own power to refuse the situation?
again, are there rules for working conditions stipulated or are there not?? or are the pilot just a marionette afraid losing the job to the next
Take it provocative or not, but please donīt feel as a "poor victim/pilot" being picked at again
You totally ignore the two pilots they've interviewed aswell as the guy from the NTSB
2nd i was listening on all tape but still all sounds so ridicules, like pilots donīt have there own power to refuse the situation?
again, are there rules for working conditions stipulated or are there not?? or are the pilot just a marionette afraid losing the job to the next
Take it provocative or not, but please donīt feel as a "poor victim/pilot" being picked at again
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like pilots donīt have there own power to refuse the situation?
Smart man.....
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If you don't feel well rested, don't fly
do that five times and you're without job.
Ps. if i would find out flying with a "overtimed" crew i would sue the s..t out of that airline Ds
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
This issue can not be blamed on the bean counters. Do the accountants decide on the manning levels? This is a problem for management, shareholders/owners and regulators. Unfortunately there are some "latent errors" that seem to be too expensive for companies to contemplate addressing. I would suggest that in a situation where chronic fatigue of crews can be reasonably foreseen by the regulator, if no remedial action is mandated and enforced, then the regulator should be jointly culpable for any damage, injury or loss of life which results.
sr
sr
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Simply legislate that anyone in any safety critical job whether it's flying a plane, controlling a chemical plant, driving a hazardous goods truck or runnig a nuclear power plant, cannot have more than one job (relatively simple to track via social security/National Insurance number & tax records).
PS: The US constitution was adoped just after the Brits were kicked out....long ago.
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Unfortunately, Mr. Cohen forgot to mention some key facts he is well aware of.
Among which, junior manning which is now the norm instead of being the exception, companies (crew scheduling) not complying with the terms of pilots contract and provisions of the FARs as far as duty time and rest periods, retaliation and disciplinary measures in total disregard with labor (pilot) contracts and FAR against pilots refusing a trip or more often trip extension due to fatigue, and reduced rest periods becoming the norm instead of being the exception. That is only the visible part of the iceberg.
All of that being casually observed (ignored) by the FAA which, despite fatigue being cited as a contributing factor in many recent aircraft accidents, also fails to follow the recommendations made by the NTSB in that regard. Guess who pays the members of the Regional Airlines Association by the way.
As a pilot, no matter how hard you try to take care of yourself and how hard you try to get adequate rest between trips, airlines and the FAA are the ones to blame for what is currently happening.
Among which, junior manning which is now the norm instead of being the exception, companies (crew scheduling) not complying with the terms of pilots contract and provisions of the FARs as far as duty time and rest periods, retaliation and disciplinary measures in total disregard with labor (pilot) contracts and FAR against pilots refusing a trip or more often trip extension due to fatigue, and reduced rest periods becoming the norm instead of being the exception. That is only the visible part of the iceberg.
All of that being casually observed (ignored) by the FAA which, despite fatigue being cited as a contributing factor in many recent aircraft accidents, also fails to follow the recommendations made by the NTSB in that regard. Guess who pays the members of the Regional Airlines Association by the way.
As a pilot, no matter how hard you try to take care of yourself and how hard you try to get adequate rest between trips, airlines and the FAA are the ones to blame for what is currently happening.
Regional Pilots
This is complicated issue. From the public point of view it is win/win. Flying is safer and cheaper than ever. What is not to like?
Most people I know are stunned when they find out what RJ crews make. I suspect a lot of people, if they were in the know and had a real choice, would pay $20 more a ticket to fly with a higher paid crew. As a practical matter you don't have a choice of carriers on most RJ flights.
Flight time rules etc are all very well but they assume that the crew actually rest when they are not at the flying job. That is hard to achieve when you are making 20 K per year and need to live a life.
It is very easy to say don't take the job when you have a comfortable job you your own. As a pilot there a not a lot of options out there that will use that very expensive training.
Sadly I doubt it will change until there is a series of major accidents with crew fatigue being fingered as a leading cause.
It would not be without precedent for Congress to act. After 9-11 one of the big arguments in favor of establishing the TSA was better pay and working conditions would improve the quality of airport screening.
20driver
Most people I know are stunned when they find out what RJ crews make. I suspect a lot of people, if they were in the know and had a real choice, would pay $20 more a ticket to fly with a higher paid crew. As a practical matter you don't have a choice of carriers on most RJ flights.
Flight time rules etc are all very well but they assume that the crew actually rest when they are not at the flying job. That is hard to achieve when you are making 20 K per year and need to live a life.
It is very easy to say don't take the job when you have a comfortable job you your own. As a pilot there a not a lot of options out there that will use that very expensive training.
Sadly I doubt it will change until there is a series of major accidents with crew fatigue being fingered as a leading cause.
It would not be without precedent for Congress to act. After 9-11 one of the big arguments in favor of establishing the TSA was better pay and working conditions would improve the quality of airport screening.
20driver
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As a pilot, no matter how hard you try to take care of yourself and how hard you try to get adequate rest between trips, airlines and the FAA are the ones to blame for what is currently happening.
It is not the FAA'a job to determine a pilots family life, it is up to the pilot to actually show some responsibility for his personal life.
IE: if you want bankers hours, become a banker.
Pilots have to work a completely different and often quite demanding schedule, and their personal family life had better not come in the way...otherwise a don't come Monday letter is arranged in short order.
IE: the respective airline pays for their pilot services, not family life.
Now, as to whether that lower pay is justified, many times it is not....yet, there are plenty of new(er) applicants who think it is.
Supply and demand at work.