Balpa to challenge ID cards

[sky9]

I leave it for you to follow


Pilots refuse to take part in national identity card trials | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/04/identity-cards-airline-pilots)

[Desperate]

Excellent news.

Worth my 1% on its own.

[Spartacan]

Also in the London Evening Standard:

Pilots to boycott trial of ID cards | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23685513-details/Pilots+to+boycott+trial+of+ID+cards/article.do)

Airline pilots will refuse to take part in the national identity card scheme when trials begin at London City and Manchester airports this autumn.

>>The British Airline Pilots' Association will raise a legal challenge to Home Office plans to use "critical" airside workers to test the scheme.

MPs will shortly be asked to approve powers to force pilots and airside staff to register for ID cards as part of checks before they are employed. The scheme will try to persuade air staff to sign up by waiving the £30 registration fee.

Balpa has protested that the ID card scheme cannot be considered voluntary when workers will not be able to get an airport pass without one.<<

[Spartacan]

Also an excellent article in the Gaurdian by Jim McAuslan:

We refuse to be ID card guinea pigs | Jim McAuslan | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/may/05/identity-cards-pilots)

>>Our members must have an airside pass to operate aircraft and now discover that to get that pass they must have a national ID card. They are told, "You don't actually have to one" – but no card equals no pass, which equals no job. This is coercion and, by trialling the scheme in Manchester and London City airports, the government is clearly attempting to isolate pockets of resistance.<<

and

>>Our members, who aim to be the ultimate professionals, increasingly have a sense that a line is being crossed in the relationship between state and citizen; a sense that Big Brother knows best.<<

[Chesty Morgan]

The £30 fee is to be waived as an incentive for them to sign up.

Wow, thanks very much, it almost makes me want to have one now.

[blackace]

And if Pilots are not required, I take it the rest of the airport workers will not be required to participate also ?

If your going to swan through the VP point and I have to validate my genital card, don't even think about pushing in front of me, even if you have priority.

Help us mortals.

No need really, BAA security can only manage a BAA pass and a temp pass, anything more than that and their brains would explode.

[Jofm5]

Last night and carrying on to this morning LBC (a london talk radio station) has covered the story of the id cards and how crew are going to be the test subjects. I was surprised there was not a single repost from anyone in the industry having observed threads such as this.

[Quarternion.]

"Balpa man" has been on the TV this morning whinging about this - so I guess it must be serious !!!

With a DVLC licence, CAA licence, JAR licence, NI card, birth certificate, Mickey Mouse membership and several airside passes...... we now need an ID card to get to the aeroplane.

Does anyone know whether this is just for Airlines and major airports, or is it mandatory for the average PPL going anywhere near Manchester to have one as well.

No comment from the CAA yet - they are obviously on the ball as usual !!!

[FairlieFlyer]

From Hong Kong we use ID cards and they work *exceptionally* well

For all govt, drivers licence, banks, utilities, services, libraries, hospitals, employers or any ID required this one card is used - including passport control for residents through HK is fully automated using a thumb print as well. Saves standing in queue ala Heathrow for

Agree that without having this integration of services above, sounds like a waste of time - If you can make it work, this will be a huge step forward in simplifying your daily lives in the amazingly dire technology level in the UK.

Lastly for all the Guardian reading beardies citing Government control and Big Brother, the government already hold all and any info 'they' need on you :E

[doishquattroserche]

id like to ask jackboots jaqui smith ,if it is safer/better for pilots and airport workers to have 2 id cards ,can she give me a proper reason as to why 3 or 4 or even 10 id cards would not be even safer.......it' utter rubbish,well done balpa. 1 ID card is enough! That is all an alitalia or KLM crew will need to get airside in the UK ,but UK crews will need 2...utter BXXXXXXX!!!

[screwballburling]

So, what will happen to pass holders who refuse the ID card and loose their jobs, at pass expiry?

Will BALPA foot the bills to keep the families afloat?

Who's first then?

[Nicholas49]

No one will lose their job. Don't be so bloody dramatic. What, you think that an airline is going to fire its pilots for failing to take part in this ludicrous scheme? I don't think so somehow.

To those making a stand against this pointless (in so many ways) scheme: you have my full and unreserved support. Thank you for fighting this on behalf of the overwhelming majority of the public. Good luck!

[Storminnorm]

No-one will lose their job, Nick?
You must be joking.
No Bl**dy pass, No bl**dy job mate.
Just wait and see!! The airlines will just fall in line
with whatever Gordy and his Cronies tell them.

BAA? Barstewards Against Aviation mate!!!

[Caractacus]

From Hong Kong we use ID cards and they work *exceptionally* well

Just because something is acceptable in your native Chinese culture does not mean it would be acceptable in our native British culture.

The UK Government is NOT to be trusted with an ID Cards scheme - not least because of the all encompassing National Identity Register (NIR) that sits behind it. Every time the ID Card is used an entry is made on the NIR. Thus the state builds up a picture over time of what you do and where you go. The NIR would also have links to other governent databases so allowing civil servants access to a huge range of information about you.

Exactly how do you think I, as a private citizen, would benefit from this? If I need to identify myself (and I rarely do outside work) then there are number of different ways I can choose to do this and there is NO recording of the information.

I refuse to have an ID Card and protest most strongly that I may be denied an airside pass and employment as a result of my point of view.

[flash8]

I'm not exactly endeared to BALPA (completely dominated in the ranks by BA) and imho always considered it a waste of money. However I have to say I am impressed by this latest action. Shows they have a bit of balls. I might start putting my hand in my pocket.

[Touch'n'oops]

I have lived in a country where ID cards were used for everything and I thought it quite good.

HOWEVER, I can't see the bloody point of these new cards, as they don't fill a role or simplify any part of my life. If I ended up getting one it would only sit in the desk draw!!!

I would accept the cards if it meant I could combine my driver's license, airside pass and passport all into one. Who cares if it can get me back into the UK, I'd still have to carry my passport to enter another country!!!

England is in a very dark place, muppets running it and another lot waiting in the wings to take over.

Right England bend over!!!

[Spartacan]

ID card triallists stay on the register:

Public Service - ID card triallists stay on the register (http://www.publicservice.co.uk/news_story.asp?id=9404)

>>Airside workers who take part in the upcoming ID card trials will have their details stored permanently on the National Identity Register (NIR) whether they wish it or not.

As part of the critical worker identity card scheme (CWIC), all airside workers at Manchester and London City airports will be issued with an identity card. The government has said the scheme will offer "obvious benefits" to both employers and employees at the airport. It will facilitate quicker pre-employment checks and enhance identity management around secure areas in the airport, according to the Identity and Passport Service (IPS).

But it has been revealed in a parliamentary written answer that airside workers at both airports, who will be issued with an ID card automatically, will have no choice over what happens to their personal data once the trial is complete. This also applies if they leave the job during the pilot.<<

This is like keeping your DNA when you are innocent. What do they want all your data for?

[call100]

I can't help wondering WHY they chose Manchester for the
first trials of these cards.
Could it be because the population of Manchester are just
going to tell them precisely WHERE to stick their ID cards?
The Mancunians always were a bolshie bunch anyhow.
If they can force them into having to accept the things,
then the rest of us will trail after them like a load of
dumb-arsed sheep... Baaaaa!!!!
Manchester was chosen because it is a Labour controlled Council and the Airport is wholly owned by said Council. The Home office told them they were having it end of story and they would have the infrastructure paid for.
It is obvious that any opposition is being stifled. if it had happened at a lot of other airports there would have been ballots for action long before now.
Many are signing up to it at manchester for a £75 bribe to take part in the trial..Problem is once on the trial they will be on the database forever.

[M.Mouse]

I'm not exactly endeared to BALPA (completely dominated in the ranks by BA)

Well under half the membership BA. But why let facts get in the way of justifying non-membership?

[Diedtrying]

Prospect Union who represents ATC, Engineers and AFS officers has joined BALPA in the fight against ID cards, that's an extra 40,000 workers. :ok:

[mrmagooo]

It doesnt bother me if they keep my DNA on their database forever. It also doesnt bother me if they keep any other info on me too. I havent done anything that has ever warranted the police to need any of my details and never intend too. ThereforeI couldn't care what info they hold on me, as everything they want they will get anyway, one way or another. I for one will take their £75 and it should make things easier for me when I visit other airports that wont accept my Man ID as a credible source of ID, namely BHX

[call100]

I see you signed up with your real name....Very brave...:rolleyes:

[hellsbrink]

Let's see you say that when you get a knock on the door at 6am because the info on the database is wrong and you get flagged as a wanted bank robber/rapist/<insert crime here> because you won't be able to claim it wasn't you because the database says it was.

[Double Zero]

Time for me to be unpopular ( nothing new there I hear some say ).

Commercial pilots can most certainly afford ID cards, so BALPA's cries fall on deaf ears as far as I'm concerned.

You may well be covered already with ID, but after 9/11 nothing is too much...

The quoted '£ 5 Billion' includes £4 billion upgrading the general passport system, so the ID cost is 'only' £ 1 billion, which while handy to you & me - or the forces - is apparently nothing to bankers who screw up ( thank god they didn't fancy flying as a career ).

I am a lot more concerned however, that luggage & catering staff must have to go through these checks, they are the weak link in the security chain and as they are low paid I'd expect their employers to cover the ID cost ( if they pass ! ).

[S78]

Not the 9/11 argument again:ugh:

Do I need to point out that the 9/11 offenders were passengers, NOT staff.


I don't see why we have to suffer because the government keeps playing the 'terrorist' card....


S78

[Chesty Morgan]

Commercial pilots can most certainly afford ID cards,

Yes but I will be the one who chooses what I spend my money on.

Not this fecking government who all ready have enough of it.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

You may well be covered already with ID, but after 9/11 nothing is too much...

What a ridiculous and stupid argument. :ugh:

Do you honestly think ID cards would have prevented 9/11 ? :ugh:

Are are you stupid enough to have been taken in by this preposterously incompetent government ?

[call100]

All terrorists responsible for the atrocities in London would have had a UK national ID card.
Some idiots on here just cannot see the wood for the trees.
The only people who will suffer under the proposals will be innocent people.
Does anyone really think that the opening price of the ID will stay at that once it's compulsory...Dream merchants.
I find that you cannot convince these misguided people who quote 9/11 or 'Nothing to hide'.
They live in a perfect world where the Government will always be answerable to the people and the Police force has not been politicised. Sight only as far as the end of their noses at max...
Good job some are up to the fight...

[mrmagooo]

Im sure being woken up at 6am wouldn't be a pleasant experiance by the police, but if the system has got flawwed data on it then when the person was arrested and re-tested it would be obvious it wasnt that person. Then look on the positive side....... A serious crime/rape/murder etc happens and they look on the system. Low and behold the computer says it was x, y or z and the person is duely arrested quickly before commiting several more offences.....

Still a bad idea?

As for you paying for it? If i were to need one for work, I have already spoken to my bosses and they said if as an airside worker I needed one they would be liable to pay for it under T&C's

[Double Zero]

Well, Cargo Clown,

You chose that callsign not me...

ANY extra ID, especially sophisticated kit - combined with 'Intel' of course not quite available at the time - might have prevented 9/11.

I would ask you to cast your mind back to the international feeling just after that happened, the dumb shock for a while.

It would indeed be ridiculous to forget that for the sake of your importance.

I'm sorry if it interferes with your puddle jumping and trolley dollies, but this, as I say especially applied to ground personnel, is one of the several ways to go.

Meanwhile I'll feel a lot happier in a private or military aircraft, and I expect so will a lot of other people, who'll holiday locally ( I'm an air - air photographer ).

Precious bus drivers should be glad of all the security help they can get, and it would happen under any government; as I mentioned, I am no more a fan of this lot than any other.

[Fragman88]

May I recommend to all that they nip down to the video store and rent the wonderful Terry Gilliam film BRAZIL, and at the same time pick up 1984 starring John Hurt. Maybe Orwell had it right. The government have repeatedly shown themselves incapable of safeguarding their data (Discs lost in the post, laptops stolen etc. etc.) even on a casual basis, let alone against malicious intent.

:suspect:F88 Hiding

[jshg]

The UK papers for the last few days have been full of the disgusting antics of our so-called leaders and MPs and their expenses claims. This confidential information has been leaked, with devastating consequences to the MPs who can only squeak about calling the police - but the damage has been done.
Now imagine if this was confidential ID information, leaked for criminal or ideological reasons. The whole ID/security system would be compromised. No doubt our leaders would be squeaking about calling the police - but the damage would have been done. No doubt we would be back to 'lock-down' at UK airports, with the security monkeys in complete control of aviation. What a waste of £5bn .....

[42psi]

I read some of the comments and despair at the level of understanding and comprehension that apparently exists.


If you think the new National ID will somehow make it easier to enter other airports ..... please go and look carfeully at how it's used.

The only difference is that currently you fill out a criminal records check form which your employer sends to Disclosure Scotland ... when that comes back clear you take it to get your EGCC ID card. To enter airside you produce that (the EGCC ID airside pass) as you go through the security checks.


The only change that will take place is that soon in order to sign and post the criminal check form to Disclosure Scotland you will need to have a National ID Card.

Nothing else at all changes .... your EGCC card will look/feel/work/not work exactly the same as it does today.

You will not carry or produce your National ID card at all. It will sit at home in the drawer gathering dust.


I'm waiting for clarification of one point at the moment - it appears that you won't even need to produce it to anyone (who would that be anyway?) as part of the application for the criminal records check, you simply record it's number on the application..... anyone see the flaw there??


Workers from outside the UK will continue to always pass the criminal record check regardless of what they've done in their own country as the UK criminal records contain no details of offences outside the UK.


With no access or ability to check the veracity of personal information for foreign workers how can the issuing of a UK National ID card give any assurance that they pose no threat ........ how does it improve border control? The same sources used to check foreign visas/passport validity/risk will provide the information to allow foreign workers to be given a National ID card - how does it suddenly become more effective?

The only advantage I can see is that the biometric data associated with the ID card will (presumably) prevent holding more than one ID card where the person could hold more than one passport (legally or otherwise).


And for the UK resident ID card holders what changes - they can still hold a properly issued ID card and carry out a terrorist act.



I would draw a comparison between this and the present debate of the DNA database. Again the collecting and retention of personal data which other countries don't seem to see the need for and apparently when looking at crime solving doesn't lead to the UK having a better solution rate.


Surely part of the "sense check" here needs to be why does the UK see the desperate need for these steps while the rest of the world apparently does not .....



I'm hoping the T&G will throw their hat in the ring and object but so far it seems not ... perhaps too closely wedded to the politicians introducing it?



Well done BALPA :ok:

[foresight]

So you have another bit of plastic with your picture and some fairly innocuous data. At the moment,it appears, nobody even has the equipment to read the data on the card. Big deal.

You will be able to obtain one of these cards soon for£30 if you live in Manchester - of course they are purely voluntary.

Unless you need to go airside at MAN in which case you won’t have to pay £30. Oh and you won’t get airside without one because you need the ID card to get a security pass. Of cause ID cards are voluntary, so long as you don’t need your job.

What is the point of an ID card unless it is compulsory for everyone? No point at all. So when will they (inevitably) become compulsory for all?

What other information will the government eventually demand to put on your voluntary ID card. Who will hold that information - looks like a private sector company, probably a US company.

If that company misuses the information, will they be subject to UK criminal law? It appears not.

Who will have access to that information; they will not tell us but it appears that an awful lot of people will.

Councils and Quangos such as the MCA and are already selling/passing personal information to companies for commercial purposes. The press have moles with access to the national police computer and the DVLA databases plus goodness knows what others. Databases cannot be 100% secure.

This is not just for now. It is for our children and grandchildren. We may have a relatively benign, if incompetent and misguided, government now but who knows who will be in Downing St in twenty years to inherit a Stalinist database of every individual in the country. Your DNA profile may be on it, you may be Jewish..................... Far fetched but not impossible.

Don’t give them the chance.

[flying macaco]

Upon opening this thread there was a google advert at the top of the page which read, "ID card starter kit - everything you need to print ID cards".

Enough said. What a waste of taxpayers money.

[Double Zero]

Fragman,

'Brazil' is one of my favourite films !

My copy was stolen - I know who it was, and wouldn't mind contributing towards his ID card entries...he happens to be scum and near Gatwick, but not related to the airport as far as I know ( I don't envy any of you having to live in that area ).

I am not daft enough to follow the 'nothing to hide' theory, but as most of the money is going on passport systems anyway, I'd have thought airports are one place any ID check going is worthwhile.

[Pilot Pete]

I'd have thought airports are one place any ID check going is worthwhile.:ugh:

PP

edit to add some characters to make the minimum length for posting!

[LH2]

mrmaggot:
but if the system has got flawwed data on it then when the person was arrested and re-tested it would be obvious it wasnt that person.

May I suggest you read the following account (http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html) to see where your logic might be slightly off balance?

[beatnik]

LH2

The link you provided goes to a webpage of endless waffle. It seems to be more a case of "profiling" than mistaken identity/DNA. Please specify which section supports your point. And how will an ID card help in this situation?

I'm afraid I'm with mrmaggot on this one. Oops sorry - its mrmagooo isn't it. Must be a case of mistaken identity.

Remember every terrorist of 7/7 would probably have had a valid ID card - so I fail to see how their crime have been prevented?

[LH2]

The link you provided goes to a webpage of endless waffle. [....]

a) There was a time (I like to think anyway) when people trying to form an opinion about something would actually take the trouble to inform themselves sufficiently, even if it meant some reading effort.

b) Many if not most of the people who have followed the privacy debate in the UK in the last three years would be familiar with David Méry's writings on the subject and this story in particular (which is what prompted his subsequent interest in the subject).

Please specify which section supports your point.

c) I believe you should be able to answer your own question with only a quick peruse of the above link, as well as perhaps clarifying in your mind what "my point" is when I try to suggest to Maggot (if he can't spell his own handle it's his problem) that there might be a slight problem with this incredibly naïve "nothing to hide" argument.

As already pointed out, why does he and practically everyone else of us posts under an alias, even though I would hazard the majority of us don't have "anything to hide" in particular.

d) Just to make it clear, I am not having a go at anyone here, but as in any debate, I expect to hear informed opinions and not parroting whatever headlines your newspaper publishes, or whatever you think might be going on based on your own prejudices, which is why I fully concur with 289.6kPa's sentiment in the opening paragraph of his previous post (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/372687-balpa-challenge-id-cards-2.html#post4915518).

e) I apologise for the ordered list format of this post. Residual brain damage from those management courses years ago.

[call100]

"People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both"....Benjamin Franklin.

Those who want a National Identity database have no idea what they are getting into....
YouTube - No2id video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjFCDY4qARQ)
YouTube - Take Jane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1JqlvnZANA)

[ShotOne]

Unfortunately, nearly all the posts here, both for and against, make the mistake of sensibly and logically assessing the merits or otherwise of the new card system. That is something the goverment has never done. Logic has nothing to do with this. This is a desperate grasp at saving face by the discredited home secretary of a floundering government.

This wouldn't have prevented ANY of the recent terrorist attacks but that isn't going to stop them playing their bogus security card for all it's worth.

[Feather #3]

From the other side of the globe, if this ID card doesn't do away with the ludicrous UK system of individual airport ID cards, then bin it!!

In a country the size of the UK, to have each a/p with its own ID card is just a joke.

G'day ;)

[jshg]

Quite right, Feather #3 .... but as you fear, the new government ID card is simply an 'extra layer' of bureaucracy that will not address this problem.
It IS being touted by the government as the way of solving this particularly British, stupid problem; but this is because they want to introduce their ID card for their own self-indulgent reasons, and are coming up with all kinds of new justifications. There are other ways of solving this which are consequently not being pursued.
At the very least, we will have to wait until every UK airport worker has an approved government ID card - and don't forget, many are not UK citizens so can't have one even if they want one - before they even begin to address the problem. Don't hold your breath.

[Sepp]

+1 for what Feather #3 says, ditto ShotOne.

What a pity the media don't take as great an interest in threads on this topic, as they do in the ones involving people having a bad day. Good ammo for Paxman, Humphrys and Naughtie, I'd've thought...

[Big mustache]

I would not have a problem with an ID card containing the following information-

Photo

Name

Address

Age,

If it would make my life easier, but I simply do not trust the Government not to balls up the whole scheme.... Perhaps expense accounts should be added too or locations of WMDs?

[condorbaaz]

India has an airport pass system which is for all airports in the country and is very well implemented..

takes time to renew cards though

[Diedtrying]

India has an airport pass system which is for all airports in the country and is very well implemented..


That's very nice for them but this is NOT a pass system for all UK airports, in fact this is NOT a pass system for a single airport.

[Carrier]

The pilot scheme is being implemented at some busy airports that have many international flights. Each week thousands of foreign pilots and cabin crew have to use these airports to do their jobs. Presumably all of these foreigners do not qualify for UK national ID cards. If they can be allowed to access the secure areas at UK airports without the new UK ID cards then it is impertinent to impose the requirement upon UK citizens going to work at airports within their own country. That would also show how unnecessary the requirement is. There’s obviously a hidden agenda!

[Spartacan]

The Manchester Evening News clearly thinks ID Cards ara good idea:

Opinion: Angela Epstein - News - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1115240_opinion_angela_epstein)

>>The cards offer clear, unequivocal proof of who you are. As a massive bonus they'll help the fight against illegal workers, identity fraud, even terrorist activity.<<

A few local letters from pilots would not go amiss!

[email protected]

[Xeque]

Silly cow!
If I could be bothered I'd get a log-in to the MEN to tell her so in more detail. If it's as simple as she suggests then why is it going to cost billions of taxpayers money to set up at a time when the world is in desparate financial trouble and no-one trusts computers let alone MP's anymore anyway.
I repeat - silly cow!

[LH2]

As a massive bonus they'll help the fight against illegal workers, identity fraud, even terrorist activity

What is amazing is that, in the past, I have come across people who actually believed this :bored:

Clearly those three issues are totally unique to the UK, as none of the countries where ID is compulsory have any irregular workers, cases of mistaken identity, or freedom fighters amongst their populace. Or do they?

The intellectual level of this so-called "debates" really beggars belief. :uhoh:

[hellsbrink]

Anyone here now think the ID card database is still a good idea? And can someone tell me why you should have to produce an ID card to buy a TV in the first case?

ID cards: taxman allowed access to personal data - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5332884/ID-cards-taxman-allowed-access-to-personal-data.html)

[NutLoose]

The way I look at it is if these things were designed to stop terrorism, then it fails at the first hurdle as the London Tube bombers as UK citizens and unknown prior to their attacks would have been perfectly legally entitled ID card carriers....

I would rather sign on and become unemployed than pay for this.

[Xeque]

Given all the shlt thats going down about MP's expenses at the moment, I would have thought that anything that willfurther put them in a bad light (whatever their colour or persuasion) would have been well and truly shelved by now. Not so it seems. We still have the crass stupidity of the proposed ID cards and various 'security' databases not to mention the 'Jobs for failed Traffic Wardens' scheme at our airports where cretins of dubious education or mental ability lord it over law abiding citizens at (so-called) security. Just how far do we have to go before the British finally get off their collective arses and put a stop to this cr@p.
This constant picking away at peoples basic privacy against the excesses of those who would claim to be our elected representatives is something that the British, as a nation, should stand up to - once and for all - and say a resounding NO!!!
I'm not against ID cards per se. As a long term expatriate in various countries around the world I have been required to carry one for many years. However, there is a big difference between a credit card sized piece of plastic that simply gives your name, current address, passport details, a photograph and signature and the invasive, intrusive, big-brother control that is proposed by the 'Expenses Fiddlers' in Britain today.
I renewed my 5 year Thailand drivers licence yesterday. I contains the same basic identification information that I listed earlier. It is regularly used here as an ID card. It cost the equivalent of £9.
Now ask me why I choose to live in Thailand.
Poor Britain!

[Romeo India Xray]

I wonder if Gordon will try to coerce the airport authorities over here at Riga, Liepaja and Ventspils to demand an ID card from me when I pass through? Hope not, because as it stands I have no intention of ever holding one at the whim of the inept UK system.

My ID over here is valid for all three international airports (in addition to the domestic airports and airfields we have). Why do the intelligent individuals left in the UK simply not cull the cretins who repetatively vote for the muppets that are bringing you this mess?

Good to hear that BALPA are taking a strong stance, I just hope they can build enough momentum to keep it out until the least popular prime minister ever (and his cronies) are voted out.

RIX

[Bruce Wayne]

FYI

Network of 1.9 Million Malware-Infected Computers Controlled by Cybercriminals - Corporate and Government Computers Are Included

Finjan - Finjan Discovers a Network of 1.9 Million Malware-Infected Computers Controlled by Cybercriminals - Corporate and Government Computers Are Included (http://www.finjan.com/Pressrelease.aspx?id=2238&PressLan=2139&lan=3)

Just as well the government wants the data on the entire population, including professional people that work airside on a database then !

[Ellie Vator]

Sorry - this is Balpa mouthing off again about taking legal action.
It's pathetic. I have been at the end of the trail of Balpa legal action where they said it was a dead cert for us all to win. Cloud Cuckoo Land. It was laughingly thrown out of court. Thanks for nothing Balpa. Yet again wasting all those hard earned 1%'s.

I hate the idea of being forced to carry a National ID card, but what we really do need is some form of Government National AIRSIDE ID card. So we can dispense with these stupid airport IDs such as BAA, BRS, BHX, HUY, and EMA. They all refuse to really acknowledge another airports' ID, but we all have to jump through exactly the same hoops for whichever one we require. For example BRS security should not be allowed to say they will hand search any person who is not a BRS ID holder.

Some form of Government National ID Airside pass would be desirable.
Don't waste time or money with Balpa.

[Bruce Wayne]

The *point* is Ellie, is that NO Government National ID is desirable.

Less than desirable.

[GearUp CheerUp]

It doesnt bother me if they keep my DNA on their database forever. It also doesnt bother me if they keep any other info on me too. I havent done anything that has ever warranted the police to need any of my details and never intend too

A fine argument if we had a government we could trust not to lose our personal information or sell it to the highest bidder. Also if we had a police force we could trust not to manufacture evidence when under pressure to solve crimes.

Sadly, we have neither.

Im sure being woken up at 6am wouldn't be a pleasant experiance by the police, but if the system has got flawwed data on it then when the person was arrested and re-tested it would be obvious it wasnt that person. Then look on the positive side....... A serious crime/rape/murder etc happens and they look on the system. Low and behold the computer says it was x, y or z and the person is duely arrested quickly before commiting several more offences.....

All very well until the police are tempted to over rely on DNA evidence rather than putting in the effort to solve crimes properly. Then, of course, all a criminal requires to fit someone else up for his crimes is a sample of DNA in some form or other to leave at the scene of the crime. Ever read, "Presumed Innocent" by Scott Turow?

[DP.]

Manchester was chosen because it is a Labour controlled Council and the Airport is wholly owned by said Council.

Just to clarify, MAG is actually owned by all 10 Greater Manchester councils, including some Conservative controlled, with Manchester having a majority shareholding. That's not to take away from what you're saying though - MCC would (and seem to) be a favourite of the government when they want something like this trialling.

I am absolutely opposed to ID cards, and have utmost respect for all of you pilots taking a stand against this - thank you.

Back to lurking...

[call100]

Looks like the Bitch from Redditch is about to step down........Long queue forming to volunteer for the firing squad....:} Another nail in the coffin of NID. This could give labour an exit strategy should they want it.......what's the betting???????

[Ellis Hill]

Whilst I'll be glad to see the back of her, I don't share your optimism. Ms Smith didn't come up with the idea for ID cards and they won't dissappear with her. Whoever follows will implement them just the same. The only light on the horizon is that come next May Labour will be out of power. With them will go ID cards and the National ID Register. In the meantime I hope we can somehow stall the MAN/LCY schemes.

[call100]

OK if you think they'll last until next may...:uhoh:

[hellsbrink]

They will

They'll hang on as long as possible in the hope that the economy turns round, and then claim credit for doing so, or in the hope they can come out with some new idea that will fool enough people into voting for them.

Either way, they will not give up power in a hurry, as seen by Goggsy's aborted election after he took over from Bliar

[williewalsh]

Blears has just gone. Pundits suggesting Brown is out soon and the nation wont accept another leadership change without an election.
Labour about to suffer drubbing in local elections.
Lets hope Manchester cc get bluer thus undermining the assholes at Manchester Airport PLC (proxy labour council). Bring it on.
A great day for democracy and an amazing pseudo revolution by the press and public.
ID cards my arse.:ok:

[Spartacan]

>>The only light on the horizon is that come next May Labour will be out of power. With them will go ID cards and the National ID Register<<

ID cards are long term Home Office project. If the Government falls the Home Office will wait until a new home Secretary is appointed and then start pushing the project again after a discreet interval. Remember, the Card itself is less of a problem. The real issue is having one registration number linked to all government databases. They passport could, incrementally, become a de facto ID Card if information sharing legislation is passed to join up all the databases.

[four_two]

I don't know if this has been posted here but I would anticipate much more of this when all our personal details are logged in all the databases behind ID cards, medical records etc.

Id database snooped for celebrities' secrets - The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1184506/id-database-snooped-celebrities-secrets)

[FullWings]

...the nation wont accept another leadership change without an election
Much as I would like to see the present lot out ASAP, how does the "Nation" do this? As far as I can make out, once you get your representatives into parliament, they can do what they like until you vote them out at the next election. Which they set the timing for. You could have a word with the Queen, I suppose and get her to dissolve this mess early...

[Avitor]

I think the electorate is shortly to have its say on ID cards!

[llondel]

According to The Register, it appears that existing staff won't have to get an ID card, at least not to start with. It'll only be new staff. I suspect they mean "new to Manchester or London City" so you might want to avoid a transfer.

Airport ID cards only for the newbies ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/04/id_card_limits/)

[hellsbrink]

Which makes it even more of a farce, as you'll have most of the people working there not needing an ID card but then you'll have, at a rough guess, 1 in 10 who will. And we all know what the expenditure will be for that "1 in 10" due to the fact that every gate will need ID card readers and then there will be the added loss of production time as the security grunts argue over who should actually have an ID card, especially if it's a furriner.

Fricking unbelieveable. You really couldn't make it up

[call100]

Don't forget the £75 bribe being offered to anyone taking up the NID card. I'm sure some mercenary fools will take this up!!:ugh:

[hellsbrink]

But, according to what I understood, the probies at MAN/LCY won't be getting a choice and the rest get the "bribe"...

So many conflicting tales, you never know what to believe. Especially when most of the conflicting stuff comes from the Home Office.

[call100]

Thats how it's been reported...Newbies - no choice. Oldies - £75 bribe.
I notice that through all this no one from Manchester seems to be posting for or against.
I tried to get a debate going on the Manchester thread to no avail. Maybe the general apathy was the reason it was chosen!!:ooh:

[zfw]

Nope Man is definitely watching but theres still no concrete dates for it all to
start its all quite vague...


Airside Worker Identity Cards

Since we announced our intention to evaluate the use of Identity Cards for airside workers, in partnership with the Identity and Passport Service (IPS), there has been a lot of preparatory activity going on in the background.

The 18-month evaluation period, which is planned to start in the autumn, will provide MAG with the opportunity to shape the Identity Card Scheme and assess the potential benefits it may bring to airside workers.

During the evaluation period all new airside workers not currently in possession of a valid airside pass will be required to apply for an identity card as part of their pre-employment checking process. MAG and IPS have agreed that any extension of the scheme to include existing airside workers already in possession of a valid airside pass will be on a voluntary basis.

Operational trials will take place at the airport prior to the launch and during the trials some volunteer MAG colleagues and IPS staff will be taken through the end to end process to fully test the systems and processes. The cards that they will be issued with will be valid for 10 years.


With a bit of luck and a regime change at the top of the country we might forget all this nonsense.

zfw

[Xeque]

Pretty pathetic really.

[call100]

Alan Johnson taking over as home secretary....From a TU background..Not that that means much these days. Nothing will change with him, he voted for ID cards in 2006...
The fight goes on.:ok:

[bilderberger]

The union won't be able to do anything about the ID Card issue, which (no doubt) is an edict from our EU Masters and must be obeyed....at least by the political pygmies who comprise our so called government.

As far as the Union is concerned it's just another band wagon (to increase membership) which will shortly run into the sand.

[hellsbrink]

The union won't be able to do anything about the ID Card issue, which (no doubt) is an edict from our EU Masters and must be obeyed

Afraid you're wrong there. If it was an EU edict it would apply to EVERY airport, and since the EU have also said that the UKID program may breach privacy laws then you can see that it is NOT an EU directive. This "scam" (not "scheme") is merely something drawn up by Whitehall in an attempt to slowly force the country into having everything from their personal data covering everything from financial/medical records to breast/penis size held on a central database which far too many people will have access to.

[Diedtrying]

I love this snippet.

will provide MAG with the opportunity to shape the Identity Card Scheme and assess the potential benefits it may bring to airside workers.

It should read, will provide MAG with the opportunity to shape the Identity Card Scheme and assess the potential benefits it may bring the Government.

[hellsbrink]

Or

It will allow the Government to shape the ID card scheme, irrespective of any liabilities it brings whilst being a benefit to a Stalinist government.



Hell, even Belarus ain't that bad

[call100]

The union won't be able to do anything about the ID Card issue, which (no doubt) is an edict from our EU Masters and must be obeyed....at least by the political pygmies who comprise our so called government.

As far as the Union is concerned it's just another band wagon (to increase membership) which will shortly run into the sand.
Just been filed under..'Another useless post'.
Just because you don't have the bottle for anything don't imagine everyone else is the same...:ugh:

[magicarpet]

The Identity and Passport Service will hold some Awareness Events at Manchester Airport on 7th, 8th and 9th July.

There will be "Q&A" sessions.

Places must be reserved in advance. Book your place by following this link:

Identity Card Awareness Events - July 09 (http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=9himjaoyKXZxe0dEE4QuzQ_3d_3d)

[call100]

I've attended two of those sessions.....They end up in stalemate with no one any the wiser......The one thing that did come across is that the Civil Servants don't necessarily agree with what they are saying....In that 'Yes Minister' speak of course..:E

[magicarpet]

I'd encourage everyone to attend the awareness events if they possibly can. It's a public opportunity to question senior managers responsible for progressing the scheme.

I don't expect them to suddenly listen to reason at these sessions, but they must be made to acknowledge the opposition to their plans rather than claiming to be "working constructively with the aviation industry" as is now the case.

A show of apathy is not an option.

[llondel]

Definitely turn up with a list of questions and some notes to refute the 'standard' answers. Put them on the spot. If you can coordinate with some others so it's not just one person with all the questions and refutations then so much the better, you can bet they'll have their side prepared in advance.

[Airline Tycoon]

:DGovernment have just said they are abandoning compulsory ID cards for airside workers. Finally!!

[sitigeltfel]

:DGovernment have just said they are abandoning compulsory ID cards for airside workers. Finally!!

Story here...

ID cards will not be compulsory, says Alan Johnson - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/5698905/ID-cards-will-not-be-compulsory-says-Alan-Johnson.html)

[Professorrah]

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Climbdown over airport ID cards (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8127081.stm)

[tocamak]

The union won't be able to do anything about the ID Card issue, which (no doubt) is an edict from our EU Masters and must be obeyed....at least by the political pygmies who comprise our so called government.

As far as the Union is concerned it's just another band wagon (to increase membership) which will shortly run into the sand.

Don't you just love it when someone shows such an apathetic and cynical view and then has to eat their words. One thing that always gets me going is this attitude of "nothing can be done so why bother".

[call100]

Nut's to all you doubters that said the fight was not worth it and it was a forgone conclusion.....
Collaborators!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)
Great news.:D:D:D

[S78]

This may be a tactical u-turn before the next election ( we had a mini-manifesto yesterday). If Labour manages to scrape a win then this may well become compulsory again.


They are spending a lot of taxpayer's money on a 'voluntary' scheme, and this lot like to control and monitor everything.........


You may also get council run airports in Labour controlled areas trying to bring it in for airside workers as an 'additional security measure'.


S78

[Pilot Pete]

Seconded (Call100's comments).

PP

[jshg]

Well done BALPA. Let's keep up the pressure to ensure this whole madcap ego trip is scrapped completely.
Manchester Airport is one of those which signed up enthusiastically for this scheme. Local rumour has it that at least one of the airport's management members may have had a financial interest in the companies providing the ID and other 'security' infrastructure. Surely such sleaze is not possible in today's Britain ?

[spannersatKL]

Great News today but need to keep on our guard as has been said....
Well done all who opposed this awful Stalinist measure, pressure can work. (especially with an election round the corner).:D:D:D

[hellsbrink]

They are spending a lot of taxpayer's money on a 'voluntary' scheme, and this lot like to control and monitor everything.........


Well, they can't just turn around and ditch the whole thing (especially as cards are dished out to immigrants, wait for the racial harassment cases to appear soon) because then they would have to explain why so much money was wasted on ID cards and the "database". Best leave it to those who are from another country and those who, although blind but can see perfectly, decide it's a jolly good idea to have such a thing or be on the "database" to prop the scheme up as "gentle persuasion" gets used to edge the total numbers of cards upwards until they think they can force everyone to have one. Of course, they know that when they lose the next election then the chance of such a scheme would be over. And someone else has to spend a fortune sorting out the mess (Can't be us wasting all these billions dismantling the scam, we ain't in power any more, guv).

[Shackman]

So, as I understand it, to prove you're a foreigner you have an ID card.

To prove you're not a foreigner, you don't.

Therefore to have no ID proves you are British.

??????????

Reminds me of certain ***************** where you must wear a visible ID as a visitor but not if you are not a visitor (or have just broken in or whatever!).

[Exnomad]

Article in the Times, is seems that that somehow in the massive ID cars project someone forgot to order card readers, without which any good looking fake will do.

[llondel]

This may be a tactical u-turn before the next election ( we had a mini-manifesto yesterday). If Labour manages to scrape a win then this may well become compulsory again.

If they scrape a win next time around then there's no hope for anything and we'd be better off leaving the country before they implement it.

It's good that they're slowly rolling back all the cr:yuk:P and hopefully won't have wasted too much of our money by the time they're out of a job.

[Smoketoomuch]

Labour never said ID cards would be compulsory except for a few airport workers. The plan was always to make life impossible without one, ie no NHS treatment, no credit card use, no welfare benefits unless you produced a card.

Very little has changed.

[magicarpet]

In my opinion, it's great news that airside workers will apparently not be forced to apply for ID Cards. As an airside worker I'd like to thank everyone who has lobbied, written to their MP/newspaper, complained to their union/management, or publicised the issue in any way they could.

However, we will still be able to "volunteer" for a "free" card.

The Government's attempts to usher in this scheme by stealth continues, so it's important that airside workers are kept informed of the potential dangers of submitting their personal and biometric details for use in a vulnerable database. At least then they can make their own minds up from an informed perspective.

The propaganda machine will continue its efforts to suppress the arguments against ID Cards. If airside workers are not allowed to weigh up both the pros and cons, there is a risk that some might make their decision whether to sign up as a result of ignorance. Once a sizeable proportion of workers are on the database, compulsory ID Cards may again loom on the horizon.

[Desperate]

"Local rumour has it that at least one of the airport's management members may have had a financial interest in the companies providing the ID and other 'security' infrastructure."

Anyone with specific details please pm me - I'd love to get my teeth into this.

Whatever the reasons for their 'U' Turn - a great result.

Now kick the :mad: out asap.

[TURIN]

Well I'm in a right pickle now.

Last week I got a letter from The Labour Party asking me if I would like to rejoin. (Yes I was proud to be a member once upon a time):O:O

I replied saying that as I work airside at MAN I would rejoin if they scrap the ID card.

:ugh::ugh::uhoh:

[Spartacan]

Gents, I would keep you powder dry if I were you. All that has happened is that the Manchester and London City trials have been cancelled. The real issue is what they intend to do about the National Identity Register (NIR). It always was the case that they could cancel the ID Card but keep the NIR for passport registration. See Liberty's press release:

Liberty - Protecting Civil Liberties Promoting Human Rights : 30/06/09 Liberty response to Home Office ID cards announcement (http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/news-and-events/1-press-releases/2009/30-06-09-liberty-response-to-home-office-id-cards-announcement.shtml)

>>30 Jun 2009 Responding to the new Home Secretary's announcement on ID cards today, Isabella Sankey, Director of Policy for Liberty, said:

“The Home Secretary needs to be clear as to whether entry onto the National Identity Register will continue to be automatic when applying for a passport. If so, the identity scheme will be compulsory in practice. However you spin it, big ears, four legs and a long trunk still make an elephant. And this white elephant would be as costly to privacy and race equality as to our purses.”<<

I will be watching the progress of the ID Cards Statutory Instruments very closely:

NO2ID :: View topic - ID Cards Statutory Instruments (http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=28284&sid=b97c246fb7b02b8f5f84fdf9f9ca708d)

It seems to me that the whole country could be falling for a devilish piece of spin. They know people don't like ID Cards but have little concept of the NIR. It looks like the Government will get exactly what it wants - an Register linked to a passport. All they will have to do is start making the passport a designated document for a range of purposes. They will still be able link the major events of your life to a central register. The difference is that this is somewhat harder to campaign against!

Beware wise men bearing gifts.

[Bruce Wayne]

Agree with you Spartacan,

A key point in Alan Johnson's statement:

"Mr Johnson said the ID card scheme was still very much alive - despite Tory and Lib Dem calls to scrap it.

[He] said the national roll-out of a voluntary scheme was being speeded-up - with London to get them a year early in 2010 and over-75s to get free cards."

[Xeque]

Beware wise men bearing gifts. Name one 'wise man' (or woman) leading Britain today.:rolleyes:
If they really wanted to they could construct the bones of an NIR now using:

NI/Soc Sec data
Income tax data
Passport data
Drivers License data
Council Tax data
Public Library data

There's probably more information in the public domain they could use.
The only things they can't get their grubby hands on at the moment are medical and dental records or your bank accounts. At least NOT YET. Just wait and see - Big Brother is a determined little shlt

[flying for fun]

I'm not so sure. I think you will find that HMRC can already get hold of your bank details if they believe that you are short changing them....

[Bruce Wayne]

yes they can and they don't need your permission either.

Also, loyalty cards (eg Nectar cards) already share the information with HMRC to cross reference your spending with your income tax to determine if you are spending more than you earn; Which therefore indicates that you are not declaring your full income and should be paying more income tax.

Also your medical records *will* be available to central government as everything is planned to be centralized ([...]to computerize all NHS patients' records, originally estimated to cost £2.3 billion over three years but the cost of which has grown to £12.7 billion).

you can "opt out" but you will have to pay to opt out and to maintain your paper records.

A problem the government has is the interfacing of records across different sources effectively...

"[...] costing the taxpayer almost as much as the autumn bank bailout. But the huge amounts being spent by the Government on information technology — £16 billion this financial year — are barely noticed.
With no central regulation by one ministry, civil servants enter into contracts worth billions with a few select companies.

The details are protected by confidentiality agreements and periodic progress reviews in Whitehall are kept private, despite calls by MPs and anti-privacy campaigners for their disclosure.

The cost of most large projects balloons. The Government admits that only about 30 per cent are completed on time and on budget.
An investigation shows that the overrun of the largest IT projects totals £18.6 billion."

The government remains committed to try any aspect to garner as much data on the populace as possible with the ID card scheme an attempt to provide a central source of data on the populace, not for immigration or security but to enhance the ability to increase taxation capacity.

"Mr Johnson said the ID card scheme was still very much alive "

Spartacan is is correct, the government continues to face ever diminishing support and lack of financial capability, yet it needs more taxation revenue to resolve the very problems it created.

It seems to me that the whole country could be falling for a devilish piece of spin. They know people don't like ID Cards but have little concept of the NIR. It looks like the Government will get exactly what it wants - an Register linked to a passport. All they will have to do is start making the passport a designated document for a range of purposes. They will still be able link the major events of your life to a central register. The difference is that this is somewhat harder to campaign against!


This government had as it's election policy a referendum, yet denied the electorate it's very own election pledge on basis of a different title.

[call100]

Agreed. The celebration is only over the dropping of the compulsion for airside workers....The fight still goes on to kill the scheme completely.
It is obvious that they are leaving the scheme in place to fulfil their need to garnish information on their subjects, in the vain hope they will win the next election.
Pressure must be kept up on the Government, by all that have opposed the compulsion element within the aviation world, to finish the scheme altogether.
Hopefully the workers at Manchester and LCY will refuse to join the scheme in those areas and not give them anything to crow about.
The emphasis must now be on educating people about the implications of the data base............As well as getting rid of this lot.....

[Xeque]

What a bunch of moribund no-hoper's they all are.
Problem is, whoever takes over after them are likely to be just as awful.
Poor Britain.

[hellsbrink]

Well I'm in a right pickle now.

Last week I got a letter from The Labour Party asking me if I would like to rejoin. (Yes I was proud to be a member once upon a time)http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif

I replied saying that as I work airside at MAN I would rejoin if they scrap the ID card.

No need to rejoin, the ID card is still alive as they only scrapped the "compulsory for everyone" bit and left the "compulsory for immigrants", adding "vountary for everyone else". So the ID card ain't scrapped, it's just hibernating.

[TURIN]

Feel better now, thanks. :ok:

[hellsbrink]

Feel better now, thanks. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Yup, use the money you won't pay for an ID card to drown your sorrows as the true price to dismantle the system comes out. Especially as you can now expect the odd "racism" lawsuit as only those from outside the EU have to have one by law, so you can expect someone to use "Human Rights" (and, if someone does I will happily back you up) because the "British" don't have to carry one at all times.......

[call100]

The con was that those immigrants and asylum seekers that were here legally already had an identity card. They just changed the type of card they were required to carry to make the NID system seem palatable to Joe Public.......So I don't see any cases for discrimination coming forward any more than from the previous situation....

[hellsbrink]

Oh, someone will try it. Give them time.

[Spartacan]

Allied to ID Cards is the e-Borders scheme:

UK Border Agency | How does e-Borders work? (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/managingborders/technology/eborders/howebordersworks/)

which is a de facto exit visa for all British Citizens. This project is also running into problems:

Will EU law stop the e-Borders scheme? | Henry Porter | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2009/jul/02/eborders-breaks-eu-law)

not least because (as some of us have been saying for a long time . . .) the scheme fundamentally breaches Data Protection Laws:

>>Evidence presented to the home affairs select committee on Monday suggests that Britain's plans to use airline, ferry and train operators to collect 53 pieces of information from everyone leaving the country may be illegal under EU law.<<

and

>>In effect, requiring data from passengers will act as an exit visa, because without supplying answers to 53 questions people will not be able to travel. In one nasty data snatch the UKBA has found away of not only breaching the law on privacy enshrined in the Human Rights Act, but also EU treaties that guarantee the right of free movement.<<

The oral evidence from the Home Affairs Committee should appear here:

UK Parliament - hacpn090629no67 (http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/home_affairs_committee/hacpn090629no67.cfm)

in due course!

[Desperate]

Question Time BBC 2nd July. David Dimbleby questioning Labour deputy leader Harriet Harman on the subject of I/D cards:

Harman: then there is the question about the airside, which is the airport people working on the side where the aeroplanes are, at two airports which was going to be a pilot scheme...

Dimbleby: Well you've abolished that.

Harman: No we haven't. What we've done is Manchester...

Dimbleby: You've dropped plans to make them compulsory.

Harman: Well I'm just telling you what we're actually doing...

Dimbleby: And I'm just telling you what your Government said they're doing..(applause from audience)

Harman: So basically the idea is that to improve airport security we were going to have two pilots - one in Manchester and one in City Airport London and there was objections from the staff about it being imposed in the airport so what we said is we will cooperate with them if the airport managers and the people who work in the airports want to introduce a system of I/D cards... and if you're a pilot who's got ten different I/D cards... (unfortunately Dimbleby then interrupts her, saying she's gone off track, but Harman persists..)

Harman: we said we'd do foreign nationals, then we'd do airside, then if it was to be extended to British citizens who weren't working in airports we wouldn't do that without we actually took it to the House of Commons and had a vote, and that remains the same as it ever was.

So make of that what you will. There is no cause for celebration yet, this thing seems very much alive even if by another name. Effing c:mad:

[call100]

The more I read that transcript, the more I am convinced she didn't have a clue what the current situation is........I agree that all should be vigilant until it's dead and buried

[Spartacan]

>>if the airport managers and the people who work in the airports want to introduce a system of I/D cards... and if you're a pilot who's got ten different I/D cards... <<

By implying that pilots hold multiple airside passes she is using the established New Labour trick of conflating two issues by suggesting is that holding one UK ID Card will make pilots lives easier. Harman is not thick. She knew that there would not be enough time in the programme to explore this point which is why she took the opportunity to make it.

By using this tactic she planted an idea that ID Cards are somehow convenient.

I am known locally as someone who campaigns against ID Cards. An aquaintance came up to me and said:

"Good thing that they have cancelled ID Cards"

He had seen the programme and believed the fiddle.

[Re-Heat]

Also, loyalty cards (eg Nectar cards) already share the information with HMRC to cross reference your spending with your income tax to determine if you are spending more than you earn; Which therefore indicates that you are not declaring your full income and should be paying more income tax.
Bruce Wayne - can you evidence this?

I find this particularly worrying. Regardless of HMRC being so incompetent as to probably find no time to use the information, the mere access that they have to it is not, in my view, something I signed up to, if true...

[call100]

The following is from No2ID.....I realise that it is too late for you to contact your MP re the vote. However, it will show you how much trust you can have in the current Government!!!???

URGENT: please WRITE TO YOUR MP, STOP ID POWERS NOW!

On Wednesday 8th July 2009, the House of Commons will vote on a group of three ID-related Statutory Instruments* including one called 'The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Provision of Information without Consent) Regulations 2009'.
The other two establish fees and penalties that can be applied to anyone registered on the ID database.

We need you to write to your MP *NOW* to get them to vote against these key pieces of secondary legislation.

The 'Provision of Information without Consent' regulation would give powers to the Identity and Passport Service to pass on information it holds on you to a host of other agencies WITHOUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT. This
information would include not only official document numbers, and personal details like your name, addresses and signature (more than enough to facilitate massive identity fraud) but also your fingerprints and even - to the police, intelligence services, taxman and ANYONE ELSE THEY AUTHORISE - details of every time you had had your ID checked, e.g to register with a GP, open a bank account or apply for credit, or travel abroad. Your medical and financial dealings conveniently tagged and indexed for further snooping.

Records of what information has been given to whom and why may be destroyed after 12 months or less. They would track you for life, but prefer to leave no trail of their activities.

Contrary to some recent media reports, the ID scheme is still very much alive. From 2011 onwards you will still be forced to register on the ID database when you apply for or renew your passport. Some, including young people and those living in the North West of England, may be duped or bullied into registering for a card from later this year - and once you are on the database, there is no way off. The fees, penalties and data-trafficking established by these regulations would apply to you for life.

Blocking these three Statutory Instruments would not only stall the Scheme, it provides an opportunity for ID opponents to show how committed they are to killing it off completely. It is important that as many MPs of all parties as possible vote against them on Wenesday 8th July.

There is very little time, so we need you to contact your MP straight away - http://www.WriteToThem.com (http://www.writetothem.com/) makes it very easy - to tell him or her that you deeply object to having your personal information shared without your
knowledge or consent, and ask him or her to vote against 'The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Provision of Information without Consent) Regulations 2009' and the other two ID-related Statutory Instruments (see below for details) on Wednesday 8th July.

And don't forget to TELL OTHERS - link to our Facebook group at http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=54487688497 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=54487688497), e-mail your friends, but don't delay.

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*Statutory Instruments (SIs) are pieces of legislation which allow the provisions of an Act of Parliament (e.g. Ministerial powers) to be brought into force or altered without Parliament having to pass a new Act. They are also sometimes referred to as secondary legislation or regulations. The three with which we are most immediately concerned are:

The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Fees) Regulations 2009
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479070_en_1 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479070_en_1)

The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Information and Code of Practice on Penalties)
Order 2009
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479087_en_1 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479087_en_1)

The Identity Cards Act 2006 (Provision of Information without Consent)
Regulations 2009
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479063_en_1 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/draft/ukdsi_9780111479063_en_1)

[Xeque]

I don't have an MP because I no longer live in the UK. However, I will look at the 10DowningStreet website to see if there is anywhere there I can register my protest.
Good luck everyone. Don't let Big Brother get his foot any further in the door :*
P.S. If the Conservatives and the LibDems vote together could they not defeat this?

[four_two]

Looks like they're still trying to bring in ID cards through the backdoor.

CRB looks to ID cards to solve accuracy woes ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/27/crb_id/)

[Bruce Wayne]

Did anyone think the scheme would be canned that easily ?

[call100]

Nope! The fight goes on....:ouch: