URGENT Foreigner owns Aircraft but FAA "N" US registered through american citizen

[Deegan]

Dear Pilots,

I know this Theme in common but I did a big research on this and haven't found a answer in this case.

A friend of mine bought a Aircraft, a few days ago.
And he would like to export this Aircraft end 2009 into his home country, outside USA.

But Meanwhile he would like to keep the Aircraft in United states for 6 to 9 month.
We fly a littlebit in the next three month in the USA, before he exports it.

As a NOT US Citizen he is not able to register the Aircraft officially under his name. So there a three possibility for him:

create a Thrust Company (5000 US), or
create share Copmany (up to 5000 US),
or register it meanwhile throug a US Citizen for 5 USD.

He knows a US Citizen who said, he could registere the plane temporary in his name. I checked on the Internet that quiet a few people did this. There are several planes outside US, for excample in switzerland who are registered through a american citizen. Yes it not correct, yes many people shacking the head now, but I ask you, please to give me a experience on this.


Wich Documents are required to register it through a US Citizen to make sure, that my friend is the Owner. Maybe a Lien?

Please let me know your thoughts and dont be angry with me that I ask such a question.

[Deegan]

I thought we could back it up with a Record of an Aircraft Claim of Lien.
So my friend is the Owner, till the registred person pays it off and in December, my friend exports the plane!?

[n5296s]

You can create a Delaware corporation for about $250 (and another $150 or so per year), for example through The Company Corporation. That is what I did when I bought my plane and did not yet have my green card.

n5296s

[IO540]

You can get a US Trust for far less than $5000. I use this firm (http://www.southernaircraft.co.uk/).

However, all you really need is a US citizen who is willing to be the owner and who you can trust ;) The difference between this and using a more established outfit like the one above is that the latter will have a contract which protects both parties, and one of the things it does is it prevents the owner from simply running off with the plane. This is why you need to be a bit careful who you use if you do it informally - the owner does fully own the plane and could run off with it.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Even if you trust the person, what if they were to die? The plane is now part of their estate....

[mm_flynn]

Deegan,

It is not clear (to me at least) if your question is 'How does my friend register the aircraft for the rest of 2009 so we can fly it around the US before we export it to my friends own country and re-register it on the local register'

Or

'How does my friend (a non-US citizen) register and operate an N-reg aircraft which he intends to keep permanently on the N-Reg, based outside the US'

The second question is very standard, there are companies that specialise in this and are much more economical than indicated in your post.

The first one is a little trickier. In particular you will need to consider if any registration structure impairs your ability to get insurance (i.e. ownership by a non-pilot friend may not work).



With regard to the general process of having a 'US Friend' own the aircraft, they really are the owner with all of the rights, privileges, and risks associated with it. Unless you are reasonably careful in drafting an agreement, you have issues if they decide to walk off with the plane, if they die, and I have heard of the US taking a view in some cases that this is not a legal registration (I believe this involved a non-pilot 'owning' an aircraft, but clearly having nothing to do with its operation, maintenance, management, etc.)

[Deegan]

Thank you so much for all your answers.

The Aircraft should be flown during we prepare everything in Asia to import the Plane. So it should stay in USA for a few month.

I have never heard about a Delaware corporation!?
You mean this homepage here?
Get a Quote | Incorporate.com (http://www.incorporate.com/incorporate_now.html)
The International Package for 550 USD? What State should I choose Delaware?
What Type of Entiity? Can I do that as a International, not US Citizen?

Sorry thats new to me.

[n5296s]

You mean this homepage here?

That's who I used (and still do use). I believe Delaware is the cheapest and simplest - which is no doubt why they are based there. I've also heard of people using Nevada for this kind of thing. Not sure what you get for the "international package", I remember that mine was cheaper than that but it was 7 years ago now. You only need something very simple, the corporation is never going to trade and has exactly one officer.

n5296s (which, you can easily establish, is actually owned by a Delaware corporation called Metavol Inc).

[Sam Rutherford]

I set up a company in Delaware, which owns my aircraft. The set up costs, and ongoing annual costs, are one of the dowinsides of keeping an aircraft FAA (hey, there had to be one disadvantage!). :)

Sam.

[Deegan]

I´m just wondering. because everybody says you have to open a trust Company.
I just received a offer from AGcorp for 2500 USD, plus, plus, plus.

Thank you so much. That helps me a lot. I gonna give them tomorrow a phonecall

Hopefully it works that I can put the plane in this company

[Deegan]

Helly Sam,

Thank you. But the Downside you mentioned,
I could cancel the delaware company after half a year and export the plane into asia?

[mm_flynn]

Deegan,

If you are going to do this you need to get professional advice (not PPRUNE advice!) as doing it yourself can go badly wrong.

By far the easiest approach is to use an N-reg trust company such as the one in the link IO540 provided. You haven't indicated if you are looking for a long term (ie. permanent ownership structure) or just looking to cover the gap in moving it to your home country registration. Note - at the moment the aircraft can not legally fly as it appears to have been sold (hence no longer registered to that owner) and your friend doesn't yet have a legal structure that can own an N-reg.

Can the re-registration to your Asian registry happen without a physical inspection?

[Sam Rutherford]

You should perhaps analyse the pros/cons of keeping it on the N register...

It is an expensive route to go down if it's just about getting a few months flying in the US.

I went through AvCorp, very happy (although I would clearly prefer it to be cheaper!):rolleyes:

Sam.

[Deegan]

Thanky ous Sam, thank you mm_flynn,

I writhe you the plan:

we are here in the US for 3,4 more weeks.

In these 3 more weeks we want to fly the plane from the sales person, to our hangar in Florida.

Then we want to fly 30 hours within the next three weeks. Then we have somebody here who moves the plane every month a few hours. So we go back to Asia. Than we prepare the import into Asia. This means, we need to organize a Certificate of export and copy al the paperwork from the plane.

Then we hand this over into the Thailand goverment. As soon we have the greenlight, maybe 6 to 9 month) we fly back to US then, fly again 2 weeks with the plane for pleasure so that the flight to US is worth it, and then we put the plane in a box and send it to Thailand where we have import clearance.

So its much cheaper to fly this new plane during our vacation here, then renting a plane. Also the Plane can be flown a littlebit and its insured.

Thats why we are so curious about a delaware company for 500 USD.
But once the airplane leaves the country, (end of 2009) we have to cancel this company again.

[n5296s]

you cannot own the aircraft if you are not a US citizen
It's a long time since I did this, so things may have changed - although I don't think so.

If you keep your N-reg plane IN the US, then it can be owned by a US corporation of which the officers do not have to be US citizens or residents. It must not be out of the US for more than some fraction of the time - I forget exactly (since I never take my plane outside the US it doesn't matter to me).

If you want to KEEP an N-reg outisde the US, that's a different story. In that case it must be registered in the name of a US resident, and that's where you need the trust company.

So if you just want to fly legally in the US for a few months, then export the plane AND put it on a non-US registry, the Delaware corporation is the way to go - inexpensive (compared to the overall cost of owning a plane) and simple. (It took me maybe a couple of hours to create and an hour or so of form filling every year, plus payments of a few hundred dollars. The Company Corporation really take care of everything including paying bills when you forget to, as long as they have your credit card on file).

If you ultimately want to keep the plan outside the US but on the N-registry, then you may as well start with the trust company since that is where you will end up.

(Oh... re the quote above, you don't have to be CITIZEN, just a RESIDENT, i.e. green card holder (or citizen of course) ).

n5296s

[Deegan]

Ah I see, sorry for my missed explination and for my confusion.
Its all new to me:

After we import the Plane into Thailand, we have to swop the plane into a Thai Registration. So we have to cancel the N Reg Number and close down the company here in US. I hope you can close down a delaware company.


One more question:Are there any costs to add a plane into a company ?



EDIT:
Dear n5296s,

but I dont need to be a RESIDENT for open a Delaware C ?

[IO540]

Even if you trust the person, what if they were to die? The plane is now part of their estate....

That, according to my insurer, is a problem which one cannot do anything about.

The safeguard is the contract under which the trustee is unable to interfere with the trustor's (in English: beneficial owner's) enjoyment of the plane.

It might be a bit hard to sell the plane though...

Deegan - you may wish to EMAIL me your details because I know someone who went N-reg and then to Thailand, and he may be able to help you. As you say, you cannot keep an N-reg in Thailand long term. But there are other very important issues, if you are an EU citizen and transporting an N-reg across Europe - the VAT people can grab it and it has happened. Genuine foreigners can fly an N-reg anywhere in the EU but if you are an EU citizen the plane has to have its VAT status sorted. One rather crude solution is to fly it to Denmark first, chucking £5k+ at a certain lawyer, but that's pointless if it will remain in Thailand and never come back.

[tdbristol]

You might consider looking at a company that provide trust agreements. I have my N-reg aircraft registered to Southern Aircraft Consultancy, with myself as the beneficial owner. The agreement covers control of the aircraft, death of the person etc: I had solicitors look at it and they were satisfied.
SAC have a few hundred N-reg aircraft registered to them. SAC are based in the UK, but run by an American citizen. Cost is much lower than the figures you have given (PM me and I will give you the details).
There may be other like companies but my experience with SAC has been very positive. (Plus got a discount off my insurance as a result.)

[n5296s]

but I dont need to be a RESIDENT for open a Delaware C ?

Correct.Correct.Correct.Correct.Correct.Correct.Correct.Corr ect.

[Deegan]

Thank you so much, all of you.

I really appreciate your help and your consideration. Seems that the Daleware Coop. might be the best for a temporary registration. I will contact them by tomorrow.

Thank you guys! Thanks you very much!

[Deegan]

Dear I0540

I sent you a PM.

and at all. Here now in writing (if any NON US CITIZEN needs to register a Aircraft in USA and fly it at least 60% in USA

Aircraft Registration - Eligible Registrants Note: A non-citizen corporation (http://www.global-inter.net/aircraft.html#nonresident) organized and doing business under the laws of the state of Delaware (or any other state) can own register an aircraft as long as they comply with the following rules as cited in § 47.9 Corporations not U.S. citizens.
An aircraft is eligible for U.S. Registration if it is owned by:
A U.S. citizen. A U.S. citizen by definition of FAR Section 47.2 can be an individual, or partnership where each individual is a U.S. citizen, or a corporation organized under the laws of the United States, State, Territory or possession of the United States of which the president and two-thirds of the board of directors are U.S. citizens and 75 percent of the voting interest is owned or controlled by U.S. citizens;
a Resident Alien (foreign individual lawfully admitted for permanent U.S. residence
a U.S. governmental unit or subdivision
a non-citizen corporation lawfully organized and doing business under the laws of the U.S. or one of the States as long as the aircraft is based and primarily used in the U.S. (60% of all flight hours must be from flights starting and ending within the U.S.) An address for all records or flight hours must me available for inspection.The aircraft may not be registered in a foreign country during the period it is registered in the United States. You must provide the FAA with legal evidence of ownership e.g. Certificate of Incorporation. You must apply for a Certificate of Aircraft Registration from the Civil Aviation Registry before it may be operated. Do not depend on a bank, loan company, aircraft dealer, or anyone else to submit the application for registration. Do it yourself (in the name of the owner, not in the name of the bank or other mortgage holder). If you would like us to prepare the documents for your FAA registration Form 8050-1 our fee is $125.00. Click here (http://www.global-inter.net/thankyou4.html) and select Other Services Not listed.
You can help make sure your aircraft is properly registered by verifying that the aircraft description entered on the Aircraft Registration Application and Aircraft Bill of Sale (or equivalent) is identical to the data inscribed on the aircraft manufacturer's data plate. The data plate is permanently affixed to the aircraft fuselage by the manufacturer. This quick and simple check should help avoid delays in the issuance of the AC Form 8050-3, Certificate of Aircraft Registration. Aircraft Previously Registered in the United States You should immediately submit evidence of ownership, an Aircraft Registration Application, and a $5 registration fee to the Federal Aviation Administration, Civil Aviation Registry, AFS-750, Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center, P.O. Box 25504, Oklahoma City, OK 73125. Fees required for aircraft registration may be paid by check or money order made payable to the Treasury of the United States. A bill of sale form that meets the FAA's requirements for evidence of ownership is AC Form 8050-2, Aircraft Bill of Sale, which may be obtained from the nearest FSDO. The form includes an information and instruction sheet. If a conditional sales contract is the evidence of ownership, an additional $5 fee is required for recording. For FAA registration, the bill of sale need not be notarized. (Refer to figure 1) A bill of sale form that meets the FAA's requirements for evidence of ownership is AC Form 8050-2, Aircraft Bill of Sale, which may be obtained from the nearest FSDO. The form includes an information and instruction sheet. If a c...


Source: Airplane registration in Delaware when you file a Delaware corportion or LLC. (http://www.global-inter.net/aircraft.html)

[Tim_CPL]

Just a word of caution about trusting a US citizen with this kind of transaction. I know of one guy near DFW who lost two C-150's and a Marchetti 260 when he had a serious falling out with the guy who he had legal title the the planes and he basically had to stand by as they were dismantled for part over a few years. He was not a USC or permanent resident at that point. You really have to trust someone to have any chance of success....

- Tim

[flyingfemme]

You say that your friend has already bought the aircraft.....are you sure that the aircraft is still registered? Normal practice is for the seller to deliver a bill of sale to the FAA and the FAA will act on that. If the buyer is a non-US qualifier then the aircraft is deregistered. Getting it back on the register will require the action of somebody properly qualified. And a little money, of course.

Don't ever crystallise a deal without knowing your course of action. A stateless aircraft cannot be flown at all!

[mm_flynn]

Deegan,


You are probably going to have to go the Delaware corporation route as described in your link. The trust solutions are more applicable to people who want to operate the aircraft outside the US for extended periods of time.

NOTE VERY IMPORTANT - as FF has indicated, if your description is accurate, the aircraft is almost surely unregistered at the moment. This means illegal to fly and uninsurable. The FAA and insurance companies both have a track record of prosecuting/not paying in the event they discover the owner has allowed an unregistered aircraft to be operated.

Also, you may find US insurance companies are a bit twitchy about insuring your particular situation. AVEMCO, while not the cheapest, does have quite a flexible approach. You may need to take an annual policy with quarterly payments (and the ability to cancel on a couple of months notice).

It is worth considering if it is more economic to set the Delaware Corp up, do your US flying ending at your hanger and then have the the engine 'winterised', move to ground only insurance and when you are ready have it crated and shipped rather than have it be periodically flown by someone else (who may be problematic to insure). IO's point regarding European VAT doesn't apply if you are shipping the aircraft (rather than ferrying).

[Deegan]

I think the aircraft is still registered, but I am not sure. I check on it.

Thank you MM flynn. This makes sence to contact a flexible insurance company, choose quarerly payments - maybe AVEMCO and then winterise the plane and insure it with a gorund insurance. Thank you I really appreciate all your help.
I give the delaware guys a call now

[englishal]

That, according to my insurer, is a problem which one cannot do anything about.
Can you not have some sort of contract drawn up? For example, I own my house - My wife is no where on the mortgage or deeds or anything (for the simple fact that when I bought it we were not married). Rather than pay to get her on the mortgage we saw a solicitor who drew up some sort of contact which basically said "I own the house, but it was bought for us both, so if I die then the house will get passed to mrs B"....

can't the same be done with aeroplanes - "XYZ Corp owns the aeroplane on behalf of Mr B. If the company should fold or die then the aeroplane still belongs to Mr B" ?

My wife has a US passport so anyone wants to give her their aeroplane, then that is fine! No charge, just free use :}

[IO540]

"XYZ Corp owns the aeroplane on behalf of Mr B. If the company should fold or die then the aeroplane still belongs to Mr B" ?The plane did not belong to B in the first place. It belonged to XYZ. B is just the beneficial owner (Trustor in US-speak).

But yes I guess you could have a clause under which the ownership reverts to the Trustor, upon the death of the Trustee. Then the plane would be grounded the instant he dies because it is no longer owned by a US citizen - presumably until another U.S. Trustee is found.

This, I guess, is why the Delaware Corporation route is used for most big iron. IIRC, the Trustor owns 25% and a bunch of U.S. citizens (lawyers etc) own the other 75%. The 75% is not likely to die all at the same time, and if one dies, they can sort out a replacement right away; the company shareholding structure then continues.

Your wife owns half the matrimonial assets regardless of whatever contract you have :)

[mm_flynn]

I think the aircraft is still registered, but I am not sure. I check on it.

If the aircraft has actually been sold to your non-US Citizen friend, and the seller has completed the paperwork to indicate it has been sold, then the aircraft is NOT REGISTERED (because your friend, the owner, can not legally register it). If the paperwork has not been completed, then the original owner probably still owns it.

Once again, free advice (like just provided by me) is worth what you paid for it.

[Sam Rutherford]

He has said that he plans to register it in Thailand.

I would advise, and have done so already, that he evaluates the pros/cons of keeping the aircraft N.

Safe flights, Sam.

[IO540]

I am advised by a friend who lives there that Thailand does not allow long term N-reg parking there.

I offered the OP to put them in touch.

The Thai CAA was set up by the FAA and is run pretty tightly. A lot of details need to be done right.

[Deegan]

Yes thats right. Thailand is his own world.

As I mentioned:
The plane stays in US for a while, therefore I need the Registration. Once the Plane raches Thailand it HAS the be Thai Registered. Even if I want to keep it N Registered.

@ SoCal App:
You are right. YOu should always prepare yourself. But, we never expected to buy a plane here in U.S. at this vacation. We just went lucky and find a awesome deal.
And all of yo helped me to get this done.

I really appreciate that.



Thank you so much, all of you.
I contacted yesterday Globe Inter
Airplane registration in Delaware when you file a Delaware corportion or LLC. (http://www.global-inter.net/aircraft.html)
They even offer Foreigner to create a Delaw aware Company and trade it later into a Trust, if you need it.Wich I dont need

[Deegan]

INSURANCE:


Hello Guys,

may I ask one more question. I tried now to get a Insurance.

Avemco said: They not insurance NON US Resident

[mm_flynn]

When I used AVEMCO they didn't ask for proper US residence, but they did want a US address. Use your friend's hanger address. I believe the policy needs to be written in a specific state as state law applies to many aspects of insurance policies in the US.

Please note, I am a non-resident US citizen, however, I know of British citizens that have used this approach to arrange US insurance.

[delawarecorp]

Can anyone tell me what are the advantages of using a delaware corp to get a N# for non US citizens?

[Pilot DAR]

I am certainly not an expert at this, though I do own a Canadian aircraft on behalf of a non-Canadian, so it may remain Canadian registered, and fly in Canada pending its export to his country.

To asure that I don't run off with the plane, and it is his if I die, I signed a blank bill of sale, which he can produce at any time he pleases to take formal ownership of the aircraft.

I don't claim to know all the legal its and outs of this, but the law firm who did everything was hired by him, and seemed satisfied that he effectively retained ownership.

I hope that helps...

[RatherBeFlying]

US states, counties and cities may assess personal property tax on vehicles, boats, aircraft etc. against individuals and businesses.

[mm_flynn]

US states, counties and cities may assess personal property tax on vehicles, boats, aircraft etc. against individuals and businesses.
Although many states have a 'visitors fee' which applies to long time visitors (i.e. if you act like you are based there) which is suspiciously similar to the level of tax you would have paid if a resident owned the mobile asset! I used to wonder why so many sailors from Delaware would summer on Long Island Sound!

With regard to the question. If it makes sense for there to be a corporate holder of the aircraft then Delaware would be the logical place (economical, flexible and home to something like half the corporations in America). HOWEVER, corporate ownership making sense for a non-US Citizen would depend quite heavily on the detailed facts. Most people go with a Trust (although the Trustee themselves might be a corporation and hence likely Delaware based).

[freedomoftheair]

It is against FAA regulations to register an aircraft in an American's individual name if he is not the owner. Ask the FAA, they will tell you. It is in fact a felony by American law.
It is against the FAA law if the benefical owner of a company that registers an aircraft is not American or if a non American controls the company.
The FAA has a legal avenue. You can register your aircraft with a FAA Trust company. There is only one company that registers your aircraft with your name and address on the registration, International Air Services Inc. It is also the cheapest company at under £200.00. Other companies include Southern, Aircraft Guaranty and Avcorp.

[AdamFrisch]

A non-citizen can own the company which owns the aircraft as long as it's properly registered in any of the 50 states, has a tax ID, keeps flight records for inspection at a designated address and doesn't amass more than 40% of the flying hours outside of the US in a year.

[freedomoftheair]

You are correct. I was referring to the aircraft based in the U.K. and Europe.

[Sam Rutherford]

Having researched a little more, my impression is that AvCorp are considerably more expensive than SAC and various others (for the same product).

'later, Sam.