Runaway Bi-plane

[will5023]

Anyone got any details of a runaway Bi-plane at Goodwood today ? Luckily it did not damage anyone and ended up in the trees ! Any truth to this or an exagerated tale ?

Will.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Sadly it was a blue and white Stampe, which jumped the chocks after hand swinging. I was looking at other things at the time, but Forumites who saw the whole incident and recounted it to us later.

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[Stampe]

Airmanship?? We have the same problem at my field it seems normal practise to handswing nowadays without a suitably qualified cockpit occupant.Incidents like this then occur not surprisingly.If the insurance companies stopped paying out more care might be taken.

[The real Iceman]

The possible consequences really don't bare thinking about !

The real Iceman :cool:

[Mike Cross]

A friend of mine who was present says he always turns the fuel off before handswinging. There's enough time to climb on board and turn the fuel on before it stops but insufficient to allow it to run for long.

Sounds like a sensible precaution.

[smarthawke]

CFI had to question the owner of a Stampe the other day concerning his hand-swinging of his un-chocked, un-crewed machine at the Wycombe fuel pumps. On tarmac, facing towards an R22 and Mooney less than 50m in front.

Oh, nearly forgot, it was a blue and white one....

[Them thar hills]

A carb full of fuel will still get an aircraft far enough to do some real damage. I saw the results of that with a Beagle Pup 100. It ran long enough to taxi out, do a quick power check and the engine quit on the takoff roll. (it wasn't me)
As for swinging an aircraft without someone on board who is at least competent to operate the engine controls, unforgiveable.
:rolleyes:

[SlipSlider]

Of course it depends on the particular aircraft. Hand-starting my Champ with fuel turned off then allows just about enough time to take the chocks out, walk round the struts, stow the chocks, climb aboard, and get my harness sorted out before the engine dies; and that's at approx 750 rpm. Taxi and power checks? No chance. But I would not assume any other aircraft, not even another Champ, to be the same.

[WeeMan18]

As for swinging an aircraft without someone on board who is at least competent to operate the engine controls, unforgiveable.

Sometimes it's just not possible. If you're operating solo, without other pilots to hand, for example at a remote, deserted strip, then you have no other options. The risks are obvious and solo hand swinging should not be undertaken lightly, but sensible precautions can be taken. I always use chocks and when necessary keep the tailwheel tied down during the start. (Also a Champ owner).

[Flintstone]

Chocks or peg and tie the tailwheel. Used to do the latter on a hook-equipped Cub. If in any doubt it was possible to climb in and release the hook before taxi-ing away leaving the rope on the tie-down.

[hatzflyer]

Was it a supercub? I thought they were electric start?

[BroomstickPilot]

I think there is a fundamental trainng problem here that no one has so far mentioned. This relates to finding someone suitably trained or experienced to put in the cockpit during swing starting, especially on a land-away where even a pair of chocks might be hard to find.

The average PPL nowadays would;
1. have no experience of starting up on twin toggle magneto switches, (you start on the left one only and only throw the right one when she starts to run).
2. not know the two-person procedure for swing-starting, (called out between the two people engaged in the procedure).
3. be nervous of doing anything whatever in an ancient and unfamiliar tail-dragger.

Result: people starting engines single handed.

Then familiarity soon breeds contempt...

Broomstick.

[will fly for food 06]

I had just landed and stood looking in sheer horror as the aircraft was doing its own thing. I am so glad the wind blew it away from everyone. Credit to the fire crew who were there within seconds of it running away but sensibly followed it until it stopped spinning around.

[SlipSlider]

Broomstick, you make a valid point. For those reasons even when there is a fully competent PPL on board (even my former co-owner who flies with me occasionally!) my starting procedure is to take all the key engine start actions myself ie selecting mag switches off for priming/sucking-in, and switches on for start, checking fuel off for start (and then turning back on when started), setting throttle position etc

The only actions I brief anyone on board to do is cover the brakes and hold the stick back. I make sure they know where the throttle is, and how to reduce power if required. Otherwise: touch nothing!

That way I have a consistent procedure to stick to.

WFFF6: seen from within the crash trucks, it was a no-brainer; the turns were too tight and fast to even think of attempting access. Amazing that it did not tip up or wipe the undercart.

[jjbirkbeck]

I have a share in an Auster which i have often had to start by swinging it myself with no one in the cockpit. I set the throttle with the friction nut very tight, tie back the stick with the harness, set the park brake and always use chocks. I used to tie down the tail when possible, and will probably resume doing so - as well as switching the fuel off. I think it is safe enough provided you always take it very seriously and double-check everything which I always do. I've heard some swing the prop from behind so you can reach into the cockpit through the window if needed - have never fancied trying it though!

[effortless]

Old Macey at Shoreham used to do that. I thought it was normal.

[BroomstickPilot]

The question of whether you swing the prop from left or right or from front or behind must, I assume, depend on the direction of rotation of the engine.

In the days when I flew hand swung aeroplanes, the engines in use were mostly the Blackburn Cirrus Minor and the de Havilland Gypsy Major. These engines rotated anti-clockwise (seen from the pilot's seat) and so were ideal from a hand swinging point of view because a right handed hand prop swinger could stand ahead of the descending blade and swing with his/her right hand.

I have never been trained to swing an American engine, but what I do know is that hand swung Lycomings rotate clockwise. So presumably a right handed prop swinger would only be able to swing them from behind the descending blade while standing just in front of the leading edge of the right wing. I have seen this done, but to me it looked very hairy. I certainly wouldn't like to try it myself.

Broomstick.

[IFMU]

I've always propped with either somebody qualified in the airplane, or with the airplane tied down. One of the J3's I used to rent had a glider tow hook on the back. I used to bring a short length of rope, if required I could leave the rope behind and just release the tow hook after I strapped in.

-- IFMU

[Flintstone]

Was it a supercub? I thought they were electric start?

Yes it was and yes they are but for a while I flew one with a temperamental starter.

[Xeque]

Link and photo here
Plane takes off without pilot at vintage airshow - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5114435/Plane-takes-off-without-pilot-at-vintage-airshow.html)

[Roy Bouchier]

I seem to recall that Mike Macey's Auster had a Lycoming.

[Jumbo Driver]

From the Mail On-Line (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1168200/Airshow-horror-biplane-takes-pilot-crashes-trees.html?ITO=1490) ...

Chris Rollings, who owns four Stampe aircraft, told the Daily Mirror: 'It's not that unusual for these things to start racing around with their pilots galloping after them. But it's extremely unusual for them to take off without a pilot.'

That should do a lot for Tiger Airways' reputation ...


JD
:)

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Roy Bouchier,

Yes, some Austers, especially some of the later models, had Lycomings.

All the early post war ones, such as the 1946 J1 Autocrats I flew, had either the Cirrus or the Gypsy Major.

Broomstick.

[IO540]

A friend of mine who was present says he always turns the fuel off before handswinging. There's enough time to climb on board and turn the fuel on before it stops but insufficient to allow it to run for long.

Sounds like a sensible precaution.

That might be effective in the middle of Death Valley. Elsewhere, the plane will go into something long before the fuel runs out.

[skua]

Reminds me of the story my grandmother told me: in the late Twenties or early Thirties she was in the passenger seat of a small biplane (she had a relative who was one of the aviation pioneers, so it may have been him), and the pilot got out to swing the prop. He failed to clamber back in it as it moved off. It was stopped by the airfiled hedge, and she was so terrified by the experience, she never set foot in an aircraft of any size ever again!

Skua

[Blues&twos]

Had it cleared the trees it is believed the plane, which was headed towards nearby Chichester, West Sussex, could have flown for around 150 miles on a full tank of fuel.

And presumably landed and parked itself up again afterwards?

[barit1]

My Taylorcraft was well adapted to handswinging from behind; I stood fwd of the right wing v-strut, with the right door wide open, and my left hand within inches of the throttle and mag switch.

But I kept the tail tied down anyway. :ok:

[Molesworth 1]

I like the bit in the Telegraph saying that if it had missed the trees it would flown for 150 miles in the direction of Chichester. Paris perhaps?:sad:

[effortless]

I seem to recall that Mike Macey's Auster had a Lycoming.
Oh well it was fifty years ago. Maybe it's nicer to remember things to be more intersting than they really were. I hero worshipped him. He took me up when I was a nipper.

[ExSp33db1rd]

Took Aged Aunt in a Chipmunk away for the day. Leaving Sandown used up all the starter cartridges, mechanic said he had trolley-acc. and could come in about an hour. Getting dark, cracked throttle and briefed A.Aunt that when engine fired she had to pull the throttle firmly backwards. It worked, but I had visions of A.A. careering across the airfield.

Swung Turbulent - only way - throttle vibrated forward, chocks held but aircraft tipped. End of prop. OK at home, big chox, concrete block holding tailwheel down ( now ) - but difficult away, take some chox, start, place tailwheel chock with long string into flight deck, remove wheel chocks, climb aboard, hold brakes on ( but they have no parking brake facility) and pull tailwheel chock aboard. Good fun.