Runaway Bi-plane
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: East Sussex
Runaway Bi-plane
Anyone got any details of a runaway Bi-plane at Goodwood today ? Luckily it did not damage anyone and ended up in the trees ! Any truth to this or an exagerated tale ?
Will.
Will.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: 7nm N of LARCK
Stampe UAV
Sadly it was a blue and white Stampe, which jumped the chocks after hand swinging. I was looking at other things at the time, but Forumites who saw the whole incident and recounted it to us later.
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
Joined: Feb 1999
Posts: 586
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From: South East England
Airmanship?? We have the same problem at my field it seems normal practise to handswing nowadays without a suitably qualified cockpit occupant.Incidents like this then occur not surprisingly.If the insurance companies stopped paying out more care might be taken.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
A friend of mine who was present says he always turns the fuel off before handswinging. There's enough time to climb on board and turn the fuel on before it stops but insufficient to allow it to run for long.
Sounds like a sensible precaution.
Sounds like a sensible precaution.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 630
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From: UK
CFI had to question the owner of a Stampe the other day concerning his hand-swinging of his un-chocked, un-crewed machine at the Wycombe fuel pumps. On tarmac, facing towards an R22 and Mooney less than 50m in front.
Oh, nearly forgot, it was a blue and white one....
Oh, nearly forgot, it was a blue and white one....
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Bradford
More gardening
A carb full of fuel will still get an aircraft far enough to do some real damage. I saw the results of that with a Beagle Pup 100. It ran long enough to taxi out, do a quick power check and the engine quit on the takoff roll. (it wasn't me)
As for swinging an aircraft without someone on board who is at least competent to operate the engine controls, unforgiveable.
As for swinging an aircraft without someone on board who is at least competent to operate the engine controls, unforgiveable.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 215
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From: Hampshire, UK
Of course it depends on the particular aircraft. Hand-starting my Champ with fuel turned off then allows just about enough time to take the chocks out, walk round the struts, stow the chocks, climb aboard, and get my harness sorted out before the engine dies; and that's at approx 750 rpm. Taxi and power checks? No chance. But I would not assume any other aircraft, not even another Champ, to be the same.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Brighton
As for swinging an aircraft without someone on board who is at least competent to operate the engine controls, unforgiveable.
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Surrey, England
Swing-start experience.
I think there is a fundamental trainng problem here that no one has so far mentioned. This relates to finding someone suitably trained or experienced to put in the cockpit during swing starting, especially on a land-away where even a pair of chocks might be hard to find.
The average PPL nowadays would;
1. have no experience of starting up on twin toggle magneto switches, (you start on the left one only and only throw the right one when she starts to run).
2. not know the two-person procedure for swing-starting, (called out between the two people engaged in the procedure).
3. be nervous of doing anything whatever in an ancient and unfamiliar tail-dragger.
Result: people starting engines single handed.
Then familiarity soon breeds contempt...
Broomstick.
The average PPL nowadays would;
1. have no experience of starting up on twin toggle magneto switches, (you start on the left one only and only throw the right one when she starts to run).
2. not know the two-person procedure for swing-starting, (called out between the two people engaged in the procedure).
3. be nervous of doing anything whatever in an ancient and unfamiliar tail-dragger.
Result: people starting engines single handed.
Then familiarity soon breeds contempt...
Broomstick.
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: In a place where I dont have to fly for food.
I had just landed and stood looking in sheer horror as the aircraft was doing its own thing. I am so glad the wind blew it away from everyone. Credit to the fire crew who were there within seconds of it running away but sensibly followed it until it stopped spinning around.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 215
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From: Hampshire, UK
Broomstick, you make a valid point. For those reasons even when there is a fully competent PPL on board (even my former co-owner who flies with me occasionally!) my starting procedure is to take all the key engine start actions myself ie selecting mag switches off for priming/sucking-in, and switches on for start, checking fuel off for start (and then turning back on when started), setting throttle position etc
The only actions I brief anyone on board to do is cover the brakes and hold the stick back. I make sure they know where the throttle is, and how to reduce power if required. Otherwise: touch nothing!
That way I have a consistent procedure to stick to.
WFFF6: seen from within the crash trucks, it was a no-brainer; the turns were too tight and fast to even think of attempting access. Amazing that it did not tip up or wipe the undercart.
The only actions I brief anyone on board to do is cover the brakes and hold the stick back. I make sure they know where the throttle is, and how to reduce power if required. Otherwise: touch nothing!
That way I have a consistent procedure to stick to.
WFFF6: seen from within the crash trucks, it was a no-brainer; the turns were too tight and fast to even think of attempting access. Amazing that it did not tip up or wipe the undercart.
Last edited by SlipSlider; 6th April 2009 at 10:52.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: london
I have a share in an Auster which i have often had to start by swinging it myself with no one in the cockpit. I set the throttle with the friction nut very tight, tie back the stick with the harness, set the park brake and always use chocks. I used to tie down the tail when possible, and will probably resume doing so - as well as switching the fuel off. I think it is safe enough provided you always take it very seriously and double-check everything which I always do. I've heard some swing the prop from behind so you can reach into the cockpit through the window if needed - have never fancied trying it though!
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Surrey, England
Which side to swing from
The question of whether you swing the prop from left or right or from front or behind must, I assume, depend on the direction of rotation of the engine.
In the days when I flew hand swung aeroplanes, the engines in use were mostly the Blackburn Cirrus Minor and the de Havilland Gypsy Major. These engines rotated anti-clockwise (seen from the pilot's seat) and so were ideal from a hand swinging point of view because a right handed hand prop swinger could stand ahead of the descending blade and swing with his/her right hand.
I have never been trained to swing an American engine, but what I do know is that hand swung Lycomings rotate clockwise. So presumably a right handed prop swinger would only be able to swing them from behind the descending blade while standing just in front of the leading edge of the right wing. I have seen this done, but to me it looked very hairy. I certainly wouldn't like to try it myself.
Broomstick.
In the days when I flew hand swung aeroplanes, the engines in use were mostly the Blackburn Cirrus Minor and the de Havilland Gypsy Major. These engines rotated anti-clockwise (seen from the pilot's seat) and so were ideal from a hand swinging point of view because a right handed hand prop swinger could stand ahead of the descending blade and swing with his/her right hand.
I have never been trained to swing an American engine, but what I do know is that hand swung Lycomings rotate clockwise. So presumably a right handed prop swinger would only be able to swing them from behind the descending blade while standing just in front of the leading edge of the right wing. I have seen this done, but to me it looked very hairy. I certainly wouldn't like to try it myself.
Broomstick.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,290
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From: Poplar Grove, IL, USA
I've always propped with either somebody qualified in the airplane, or with the airplane tied down. One of the J3's I used to rent had a glider tow hook on the back. I used to bring a short length of rope, if required I could leave the rope behind and just release the tow hook after I strapped in.
-- IFMU
-- IFMU
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: not a million miles from old BKK
Link and photo here
Plane takes off without pilot at vintage airshow - Telegraph
Plane takes off without pilot at vintage airshow - Telegraph