convert NPPL to JAA PPL ???

[jack1708]

Hi all

I am currently training for my NPPL in a c42 which i understand is not classed as a SSEA, i found this below :

"The holder of a valid NPPL with Microlight Class Rating or UK PPL (M) licence without restrictions
who wishes to obtain a SSEA Class Rating shall:
a. Produce the NPPL or UK PPL (M);
b. Produce logbook evidence of currency on Microlight aircraft;
c Carry out such SSEA conversion training as is judged necessary by the FI(A) or CRI(SPA)
conducting the training to achieve the required standard for the applicant to take the NPPL
NST and GST in a SSEA. This training must include:
(1) Not less than 1 hour of dual instrument appreciation;
(2) 2 hours stall awareness/spin avoidance training;
(3) Differences training for Microlight pilots whose Microlight flying has been solely on
flexwing aircraft;
(4) Not less than the 32 hours required minimum total flight time for the NPPL with SSEA
Class Rating, which may be a combination of both Microlight and SSEA flying.
d. Pass the JAR-FCL PPL (A) theoretical examination in Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight;
e. Hold a valid NPPL Medical Declaration or JAA Class 1 or 2 medical certificate;
f. Pass the NPPL NST and GST in a SSEA."

Basically my question is according to the above, could i get my NPPL microlight licence in my C42 which takes 35 hours minimum anyway and then do 3 hours experience in a SSEA using the 35 hours from the c42 to transfer to the SSEA licence so i dont have to do another 35 in a SSEA ?

(obviously i know the hours are just industry minimums and it can take alot more depending on the student, i just dont want to do 35 hours in the c42 and then do the whole same thing again just to get a single engine licence)

Thanks in advance !!

Jack

[S-Works]

You can add an SSEA rating to your NPPL. This would not give you a JAA PPL.

To do that you will need to do the JAA exams, training and skill test of which a small amount of the NPPL time will count.

[jack1708]

ye i understand id have to do the exams with it, basically iwant to do commercial training but understand id have to get a single enige licence before i could start which is the jaa ppl ? i think,

so really it is going to be easier and save money if i just leave the nppl and do a single engine licence straight away ?

[S-Works]

Thats your call. If you want to convert an NPPL to a JAA PPL then you will need to meet the requirements. That means all of the JAA exams, the flight training with an approved school/instructor (35 hours if converting from NPPL I think).

If you are going commercial then it certainly seems sensible to start off on the correct path.

[pipertommy]

Help (http://www.nppl.uk.com/FAQ.htm) :ok:

[S-Works]

Q Can I upgrade to a JAR-FCL PPL?
A Yes, up to 30 hours can be carried over as a credit towards a JAR-FCL PPL, as long as this flying training has been completed by a JAR qualified instructor and all JAR PPL exams have been passed. A further 15 hours minimum of training will be needed, of which 5 can be done in a simulator. Full details are provided in JARFCL 1.010(a).


Just bear in mind Microlight hours do not count. If you add an SSEA rating to an NPPL it must be with a JAR Instructor but will generally not take 30 hours!

[xrayalpha]

Of course, if I understand it: it does not say what kind of training by a JAR instructor is required!

So get your microlight NPPL, convert to a SSEA NPPL, then do the whatever number of hours training on an SEP with a JAR instructor to get a night rating, say, and then sit your JAR GST as well as whatever you sit to get a night rating (or whatever) since the training hours for the "extra rating" will count for the basic JAR PPL minima! Plus your JAR exams!

So the C42 gets you flying. And no hour is wasted!

In the microlight world, there is no requirement to have any hours before you sit your GST - but there are minimum hours before you can apply for your licence!

Is it the same for JAR land? So can you do your test and then fly your "solo" hours as a JAR student rather than a NPPL pilot?

It's all wonderfully complex!

[C42]

xrayalpha

Where is that written in black and white? it would help me out right now if i could convince my school that is the case!

Dave

[Mickey Kaye]

What about if your microlight training was in 3-axis aeroplanes by a JAR instructor would that not then count?

[larzabell]

I have an nppl microlight. Here's the facts-

You have to do 25 hours training before u can do your gst for microlights. U can then upgrade this to ssea rating with a few hours training. You will then have a nppl (m) (ssea). However as your microlight training wasn't done by a jar instructor, only 10 hours will be carried over towards JAR PPL.
Best to go straight for jar ppl.


However I did hear talk of nppl ssea licences being converted to eu licences under easa. Maybe they would convert your nppl m ssea to an eu licence then u cud carry the hours toward full jar ppl in a couple of years.

[Mickey Kaye]

I have a JAR Instructor rating. If I teach a student for a NPPL (m) on a 3 axis microlight. They then take another 5 hours to get a SSEA rating.

If they then want to gain a JAR PPL do they still need to complete 20 odd hours with a JAR instructor?.

[BEagle]

See JAR-FCL 1.121(b).

The aeroplane upon which training is conducted must have 'a Certificate of Airworthiness' - I don't think Microlights have anything other than Permits to Fly?

Also, training for a JAR-FCL PPL(A) must be conducted at a RF / FTO using a licensed or government aerodrome.

The JAR-FCL PPL(A) 'upgrade' from NPPL (SSEA) was the best I could manage to negotiate with the CAA, given that they had their hands somewhat tied by the JAA's JAR-FCL requirements.

[JUST-local]

I have had a good read of lazors, JAR-FCL 1 and the NPPL website and understand that the exams must be competed within 18 months to get 2 years validity from the last exam.

Is the the student required to re-sit the JAR PPL exams again if they are out of validity for the application? :(

Thanks JL

[BEagle]

From LASORS:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Internet/zxzxz.jpg

Upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL(A)

The holder of a NPPL with SSEA aircraft rating wishing to obtain a JAR-FCL PPL(A) shall have completed on SEP Aeroplanes:-

These requirements refer to pilots who hold a current and valid NPPL with SSEA Class Rating and do NOT refer to pilots who have yet to obtain a licence.

a. At least 45 hours flight time, of which at least 35 hours must have been as a pilot of SEP aeroplanes. A maximum of 5 hours may be completed in an approved FNPT or flight simulator. This flight time must include:-

1. 20 hours dual instruction of SEP aeroplanes with a JAR qualified instructor;

2. 10 hours solo flight time on SEP aeroplanes which must include 5 hours solo cross country flight time including one cross country flight of at least 270 km (150 nm), during which full stop landings at two different aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made as per JAR-FCL 1.125.

This means that you merely need to have accumulated these totals before appyling for a JAR-FCL PPL(A) and you may count your SSEA time achieved during NPPL training towards them.

b. Have passed the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge Examinations in all subjects.

This requirement was written in the days when a 'consolidated' single exam was proposed for NPPL training. This now seems to have died the death, so anyone trained from scratch on SSEAs who now holds a NPPL won't need to retake them. The problem arises with Microlight conversion; currently, the NPPL (Microlight) does not require the applicant to have passed the Flight Performance and Planning or Communications (PPL) exams, both of which are requirements for a JAR-FCL PPL(A). The additional theoretical knowledge examination required for NPPL (Microlight) holders wishing to add a SSEA Class Rating to their NPPL is to pass the JAR-FCL PPL (A) theoretical examination in Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight, so if you wish to move from NPPL(Microlight) to NPPL (SSEA) and thence to JAR-FCL PPL(A), you will need to pass the Flight Performance & Planning and Communications (PPL) exams.

c. Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical certificate.

d. Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test as detailed in Section C1.4.


Self evident.

[Lister Noble]

Sorry to complicate the issue,but I have a related question.
I have a JAR PPL but am flying as unrestricted NPPL due to medical reasons.
My JAR PPL licence will expire next year and then I will be left with the NPPL licence on renewal.
If I pass the class 2 CAA medical after expiry of my JAR PPL,when I am flying on the NPPL, can I then revert back to a JAR PPL without the need for any flight tests or exams (which I have already passed to get my original JAR PPL?

I hope all this makes sense.
Lister:)

[BEagle]

To have your JAR-FCL PPL(A) re-issued, you merely need to send off the application with proof of a valid JAA Medical Certificate (plus the fee). If you've been keeping your SEP Class Rating valid (as under JAR-FCL), albeit restricted to SSEA privileges by virtue of medical limitations, you can then carry on as before, with no need to pass any exams or flight tests.

However, if your SEP Class Rating has lapsed, you will need to fly a renewal LST with an Examiner.

[JUST-local]

Many thanks.

He will be pleased about that. :)

[Lister Noble]

At the moment I think I will be happy to carry on with the NPPL licence and medical requirement.
It will cost me around £800 per year in medical tests to get my JAR PPL back, and I doubt if it's worth the large additional amount for the sort of flying I do,but nice to know it's there if I want it,depending on medical results.
Lister:)

[C42]

I have just done my upgrade from NPPL SSEA to JAR.

I did all the extra dual hours etc (i had to do the exams as i did the upgrade from NPPL Microlight so had only done the Aircraft Gen. which was a pain!!)

I did my GFT and the school signed it all off and i took it all to gatwick. Even with 350 hours (200 group A) and solo flights all round europe to spain, austria etc (hence the need to upgrade!) they threw it back at me as i had not done a cross country!! i tried to argue but :ugh: so i had to go back to the school and spend £500 on a circuit with an instructor :zzz: then the regimental southend > shorham > lydd > southend and the massive sigh of reliefe on my instructors face when i got back in one piece!! (i could have flown to spain and back in my RV6 for £500!!)

the X country paperwork has been duly faxed to gatwick (i left the rest of the stuff with them) so i am just waiting now :ok:

[BEagle]

It is a clear JAR-FCL requirement to complete a 'qualifying cross-country':

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/PPL.jpg

How did the school manage to 'sign off' your application without having completed this section? If you have any complaints, perhaps you should take it up with them and NOT with the CAA.

[C42]

The section was completed, i have done many cross-countrys as per,
It does not specify on this form that it has to be a supervised cross-country, it simply askes the date and the hours!

what was missing was the sign off page which is not mentioned in the form you pasted.

i did read on LASORS somewhere though that it had to be as per fcl 1.25 or something, but that is not what it says on that form

Dave

[BEagle]

Section 12 clearly states that you must submit your 'qualifying cross country certificate'. Did the school not draw your attention to that requirement?

[kevwal]

Hi Beagle / All

A really useful post quoting LASORS, thank you for that. May I ask a couple of questions to how that might apply to my self?

I have done an NPPL M, and recently converted that to a NPPL SSEA, and at some point in the future will look to convert that to a JAR FCL PPL, and I want to make sure any training I do between now and then will count. What if any 'gotchas' are there I need to be aware of?

As I understand it I will need:

A) 45 hours flight time, including supervised x-country and 20 hours dual with JAR Instructor.

Are there any requirements for that to be on CofA aircraft rather than Permit Aircraft? IE I will do a tail wheel conversion at some point, but that might be on a permit aircraft.

Any time boxing of those hours that I need to be aware of, ie could they be over 10 years?

B) pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Theoretical Exams in all subjects.

I have done the NPPL M exams, and the Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight exam in my SSEA conversion. I thought I would need to do all exams except the NPPL SSEA one. However your statement:

so if you wish to move from NPPL(Microlight) to NPPL (SSEA) and thence to JAR-FCL PPL(A), you will need to pass the Flight Performance & Planning and Communications (PPL) exams

suggests I only need to do the two?

However many exams I need to do I appreciate that I need to do them within 18 months.

Thanks in advance
Kevin

[BEagle]

Are there any requirements for that to be on CofA aircraft rather than Permit Aircraft? IE I will do a tail wheel conversion at some point, but that might be on a permit aircraft.

Under certain circumstances, flight time in part-owned 'Permit Aircraft' is allowable for training - see ORS 4 No. 802 and 803. However, such training time cannot be used towards the initial issue of a pilot licence.

I don't see why PIC time in Permit Aircraft (except, unfortunately, Microlights) shouldn't count towards the total flight time requirement for the JAR-FCL PPL(A). I'll check with the CAA.

I'm not 100% sure about the exams - I was assured by the BMAA that the Microlight exams were 'the same' as the SLMG/SSEA examinations for everything except Aircraft (General). The NPPL P&SC looked purely at NPPL (Microlight) to NPPL (SSEA) conversion, hence secured that agreement with the CAA.

However, the Microlight exams may, in fact, be better described as being 'equivalent' to the SSEA/SLMG exams rather actually than being 'the same', strictly speaking. Check with your flying school. If that is the case, then expect to have to pass all the JAR-FCL PPL(A) examinations for your JAR-FCL PPL(A).

[BEagle]

I don't see why PIC time in Permit Aircraft (except, unfortunately, Microlights) shouldn't count towards the total flight time requirement for the JAR-FCL PPL(A). I'll check with the CAA.

The CAA have advised that such PIC time in Permit to Fly aircraft flown by the holder of a valid licence will be allowable towards the JAR-FCL experience requirements.

[kevwal]

Thanks Beagle. Any formal reference for that statement, or a name?

Thanks
Kev

[BEagle]

Yes, Cliff Whittaker, Head of Licensing and Training Policy.

[The Grim EPR]

Can you hold an NPPL concurrently with a PPL (keep them both valid over a period of years)?

The scenario being an NPPL holder upgrades to PPL due to medical improvement, but keeps the NPPL in reserve in case of relapse.

Any advice much appreciated.

[BEagle]

Yes.










.

[ifitaintboeing]

Remunerated training towards an initial licence in a LAA Permit to Fly aircraft is permissible as per Technical Leaflet 2.09

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TechnicalLeaflets/Operating%20An%20Aircraft/TL%202%2009%20Learning%20to%20Fly%20in%20a%20Permit%20Aircra ft_Issue%204.pdf

ifitaint...

[BEagle]

That reference is out of date. See ORS4 No. 802 and 803 which give the current legal position:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_802.pdf

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_803.pdf

A Permit-to-Fly aircraft may not be used for remunerated flight training towards intial licence issue:
Flying training excludes instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot’s licence.

[ifitaintboeing]

BEagle,

You are wrong - the LAA document is up to date. A Permit to Fly aircraft MAY be used for training towards an initial licence or rating. If you wish to contact me directly, I can point you to the relevant legislation in the Air Navigation Order. I had a long meeting with the CAA Head of Policy at LAA HQ last year to clear up confusion over the matter, which led to AIC W071/2009 being issued.

ORS4 802 and 803 were issued to address the long standing problem of [remunerated] continuation training [and testing] in group owned Permit to Fly aircraft and microlights. The quote you have included only refers to that particular exemption.

ifitaint...

[BEagle]

You are correct, I concede. AIC W071/2009 does indeed state that the sole owner of an aeroplane operated on a Permit to Fly may receive remunerated flight training towards a licence, where the sole remuneration is for the provision of the pilot.

But how did the CAA exempt themselves from JAR-FCL 1.125 (b)?:
(b) Flight instruction. An applicant for a PPL(A) shall have completed on aeroplanes, having a certificate of airworthiness issued or accepted by a JAA Member State,......

It would make a lot of sense if the whole topic was re-written in plain English rather than the tortuous Sir Humphrey Appleby language of the AICs and ORS - and without all the confusing cross-references.

[ifitaintboeing]

It would make a lot of sense if the whole topic was re-written in plain English rather than the tortuous Sir Humphrey Appleby language of the AICs and ORS - and without all the confusing cross-references.

Exactly what I thought when I read through the "Draft AIC covering the re-issue of"....which I received the other day ;-)

Comments to follow via e-mail.

ATB, ifitaint..