Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...

[DaveD]

"Madeup Tower, G-ABCD..."

A few people have been talking about RT tests recently and since i've been flying alot and listening to alot of people flying recently it got me thinking...
Why do people call up ATC like that... ???

I've never done it, and my RT examiner can't understand why people do it, but people still do?

Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...

G-ABCD pass your message....

Whats the point in calling up with no request.. no point at all, and it's so annoying when it's busy..

[Fg Off Max Stout]

It gets the air traffiker's attention without clogging the airwaves and gives ATC the opportunity to continue when they are ready.

If you launch into lengthy waffle on your opening call you will often get a "G-ABCD standby" or "say again".

The controller may be on the landline, working other frequencies, expecting a readback from someone else, handling an emergency or just not holding their pencil. More time is wasted on busy frequencies by not doing this in my opinion.

On some handovers you are instructed to "Contact xyz, callsign only" because each pilot can barely get a word in. Someone who then comes on frequency with "xyz, G-ABCD is a Cessna 152 at, err, 2000ft on a QNH of 1013 with 2 POB, heading 180, out of EG?? to EG?? on a navex routing err Trumpton, Toxteth, Cockville, etc etc" causes mayhem, p1sses off ATC with irrelevent drivel and wastes RT airtime.

[DaveD]

No, it's wrong and sloppy RT.

Lengthy waffel? The initial call should be Call sign and what you want to request... thats only..

Giving no request means the ATC has to call you back and ask what you want... If you ask what you want in the first place then he doesnt need to reply with what do you want!?

No ones initial call is going to be G-ABCD blah blah blah c152 blah... you ask what you want.. and then they tell you to pass your details.
If they request you to call with call-sign only then fair be it, but most wont..

[Droopystop]

I was always taught it was incorrect RT to call up with just their and your call sign. Sitting in ATC hearing pilots doing so seems to frustrate the guy on the desk and prompts an off air sarcastic comment. By simply adding your request, the controller can ask for the only bits of your message they need and avoids them having to ask you to pass the whole of your message. Much more efficient.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

No, it's wrong and sloppy RT

Well thanks for giving me the benefit of your experience young Jedi:hmm:

If your message is simple, fair enough. If you need to communicated a bit more information and the frequency is a busy one you're better off 'booking your slot' before performing you soliloquy - that's why so many professional pilots do it. I'm not just making this up and you did ask!

[windriver]

CAP 413:

1.8.3 An aircraft should request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Before I get jumped on again, I'm just trying to answer the original question of why people do it - I'll leave it to others to argue over the documentation and whether or not it's 'correct'.
Of course, maybe the original poster didn't want an answer:rolleyes:

[DaveD]

that's why so many professional pilots do it.I've never heard professional pilots do it, I'd hope they don't!

It's just frustrating hearing it since it's not standard, and there's absolutely no sence to it.. The ATC wants to know what you want on the initial call.. he doesn't want to call you back to ASK you what you want.. ?

Well it wasn't rhetorical.. A lot of people do it, and alot of people use PPRUNE, i was wondering if anyone(perhaps those that do) could shred some light onto why people do it?

[Tesseract]

Not sure the size of the airfield you fly out of but I am doing my PPL at a very busy field and I have certainly been taught to do an initial "Tower G-ABCD" call.

The most usual response is to standby and then when the tower has a moment they ask for the message.

Seems to work pretty well and gives the ATC guys a bit more control.

The RT book I have recommends that the initial call is a radio check which achieves the same thing I guess. Nice short call that then gives the ATC the chance to ask you to standby or pass message if they are ready.

The request taxi call can be a little lengthy...

Tessract

[Over_Shoot]

I'm a professional pilot and I do it. I haven't posted on here all that often but your tone has made me feel compelled to.

Whether you add "...for FIS/zone transit etc" on the end of your initial call up makes very little difference. You still have to pass your details to ATC, and you have made them aware that you require a service simply by calling up.

I doubt this little addition, whilst technically correct, is worth getting wound up over in the way that you are.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The request taxi call can be a little lengthy...
"Madeup Tower G-ABCD taxi information beta runway 12 QNH 1020"

Not that lengthy. Assuming you have actually booked out by some other means first so they're expecting your call.

[fisbangwollop]

"Scottish Information GABCD".......is OK by me....I may be busy on a land line or talking to another sector...but when ready I will respond "GABCD Scottish Information pass your message".......then and only then you can give me your request and life story!!........If your initial call includes Callsign ,type, position, from, to, present level, service required, your mothers name and name of Bank manager my respone may be GABCD say again!!! Therefore dont waste valuable RT time and please only give your callsign on initial contact.:ok:

[Tesseract]

"Madeup Tower G-ABCD taxi information beta runway 12 QNH 1020""Madeup Tower G-ABCD C-152 2 POB outside flight school request taxi for VFR local flight to the SE information beta QNH 1020"

Is not exactly an epic but it is long enough and it is what ATC seems to expect. They, certainly tend to ask me for supplementary information if I miss anything, which seems a waste of time.

Anyway, I am certainly not an expert and only really repeating what I have been taught but I can see some benefits to a very concise initial call, especially on a busy frequency.

Tesseract

[DaveD]

Initial call, Free call.. might have got mixed up...

Im not talking about calls on the ground, im talking about free calls..

Example.. G-CD free call MadeUp Radar on 117.2 Bye..

Scenario 1

G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD.."
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"

__________

Scenario 2
G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your details"

Now, you've minimilized your communication by telling him what you want on the first call. What is the point in telling him your call sign.. it only means he has to ask you what you want... POINTLESS.

If he's busy he'll say Standby and then ask you to pass your details when he's ready. If you free call with your Call Sign and he's busy he'll say Standby and then he'll further have to ask you what you want AFTER that cause you didn't tell him what you wanted in the first place..:D:D

[BackPacker]

G-ABCD: "MadeUp Radar - G-ABCD.."
MadeUp Radar "G-ABCD.. pass your message"
G-ABCD: "G-ABCD request FIS"
MadeUp Radar "Pass your details"

Dave, you've got the scenario wrong. The "pass your message" is an invitation to tell your life story, or at the very least your details AND your request. Ideally, your message contains everything the controller needs to know. So there is no further request for any details.

But if you're going to feed the controller your details and your request in little bits, yes, then it's going to take much, much longer.

BTW is "pass your details" actually CAP-whatever compliant? I only know about "pass your message". In any case it's a UK thing and I don't fly there all that often. The rest of the world just uses "go ahead" or something when the controller is ready for your (possibly lengthy) details and request.

[Nearly There]

information beta :confused:

Should that be Bravo, or am I missing something?

[n5296s]

My experience is mainly in the US... and I'd say it depends on what you need to say. For a handover, it's very short anyway, so...

"Norcal Approach, N5296S, level at 5500, VFR Palo Alto" is just fine as an initial call. If IFR, it's even shorter, since you can stop at the altitude.

If it's a first-time request, that's a different story. Then I always start with, "Norcal Approach, N5296S, VFR Request." When they have time they will ask for details. If you give them the whole shebang on the first call, chances are all you'll get is "repeat" anyway. (Either they're not busy, in which case the extra call is no big deal, or they are, and they would prefer to slot your message in when in suits them). (Oh, for the pedantic, I only say "Norcal Approach" if that's who I'm talking to, and I only say N5296S if that's what I'm flying. Otherwise of course I make appropriate substitutions).

But when I initially call a tower, I do normally give them the whole thing since it's short anyway.

"Palo Alto Tower, N5296S over Joe's Tire and Muffler at 1500 with Bravo for landing."

(We don't have acronyms for reporting points here, you have to say the name. Of course if you're a visitor you will have no clue where Joe's Tire and Muffler is, and that can be a problem, but that's the way it is anyway. And while I made up Joe's Tire and Muffler, "The Old Birdhouse" is frequently used by PAO tower when calling traffic, and "The Sunken Ship" is a commonly used reporting point).

n5296s (this time)

[Gargleblaster]

Dunno if interesting to you, but where I live and fly, inital call is always strictly "XXX TWR, OY-YYY" and nothing else. Everybody knows what's to follow when TWR replies "OY-YYY go ahead". AC passes a strictly defined sequence of details + the request. This irrespective of what kind of station you're talking to and what kind of services it provides (TWR, APP, DEP, FIS). TWR would never ask for details unless pilot screwed up.

BTW, re "information beta", is information G then "infomation gamma" ? :-)

[windriver]

fishbangwollop

"Scottish Information GABCD".......is OK by me....I may be busy on a land line or talking to another sector...but when ready I will respond "GABCD Scottish Information pass your message".......then and only then you can give me your request and life story!!........If your initial call includes Callsign ,type, position, from, to, present level, service required, your mothers name and name of Bank manager my respone may be GABCD say again!!! Therefore dont waste valuable RT time and please only give your callsign on initial contact


Request and life story....

Surely if people use a common standard rather than attempting to second guess the preferences of individual ATC units there will be a reduction in "life story" R/T with an attendant reduction in the possibility of misunderstandings.

It takes a less than a second for the added request... so time isn`t an issue surely.

The response to "pass your message" by a trained pilot only takes seconds if they have learned the rhythm...

Whilst it may be argued by some that the CAP413 response is too long/short/ etc it should be encouraged. A widely used standard is most likely to lead to it's adoption by all but the most reluctant.

Look through back issues of the CAP 413 and you'll see this response has evolved over time, but Instructors have to teach according to a published brief otherwise we get life stories as people struggle to conform to the preferences of whoever they flew with last time.

innit...

[windriver]

You give your callsign and service required , they say pass your message :)

innit

[Jucky]

How many people will slip up tomorrow and ask for a FIS/RIS/RAS?:ouch:

[BackPacker]

I've got a trip to the UK scheduled mid-april. I think I'm going to confuse the hell out of everybody by asking for a "Basic Flight Information Service" or maybe a "Radar Traffic Information Service".:ok:

To put all this in perspective, most pilots in Holland have been told (when talking to an en-route information service) to say "standing by your frequency" instead of requesting a specific service. Now what's that all about?:confused:

[dublinpilot]

Dave,

If I remember correctly the "Made up twr, Gxxx, request FIS/RIS/RAS/BS/TS/RAS" is a relatively recent introduction in the UK.

I'm pretty sure that three or four years ago it was changed to this format from the previous format "Made up twr, Gxxx".

This is probably one reason why so many people use the old format in the UK.

I also believe (but amn't 100% sure) that the old "Made up twr, Gxxx" format is the ICAO format. It's certainly the one uses in most other countries outside the UK. It's late, am I'm too tired to look up the ICAO documents to check, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct on that ;)

dp

[JohnRayner]

Yes, it is.

Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)

Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.

RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"

JR

[dublinpilot]

Dave,

Ok...didn't take me too long to look it up....and didn't cost me too much sleep ;)

It's ICAO DOC 9432 - Manual of Radiotelephony.
"Made up tower, Gxxx" is indeed the ICAO way of doing things. The UK has it's own way (which is relatively recent). I trust that explains why so many people use it this way.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2938/94441947.jpg


dp

[DaveD]

Yes, it is.

Initial call, Who you are and what you want (zone transit, FIS, whatever)

Pass-Your-Message, what you are, Where you are, where you're going, what your doing on the way. etc.

RT is a conversation with someone you can't see and have likely never met. Imagine if you initiated a face to face conversation, or a phone conversation, with a simple "hello, I'm Xxx" and left it at that. Why would anyone want to carry it on? If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"

JR

Perfectly put...

[Whirlygig]

If someone rang me and said, "hello, I'm Jim", my response would likely be "and I care because...?"
If you're at home, fair enough but if you were at work and someone rang you on your office number, your response should be, "Hello Jim, how can I help?"

Air traffickers are at work, not at home and it's not a conversation but a series of instructions and information forming a legal contract.

And yes, I say "Made up Tower/Radar/Aproach, G-XXXX"; it's the way I was taught and I've never been corrected :) Seems to make sense to me as I don't know the controller's workload.

Cheers

Whirls

[DaveD]

I've never used it as it's not CAP413 and further to that, before i started my RT exam my examiner went over a few things, and said whatever you do, dont free call with just your Call-Sign as it makes no sence...

Hi Tower i'm Dave.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Oh well.. i want a FIS
Ok, pass your details

OR

Hi Tower im dave, id like a FIS
Hi Dave, Pass your details

By telling them what you want first, your not wasting their time making them call you back..

[windriver]

as I don't know the controller's workload


Sorry, but what has the controllers workload got to do with this?

And I take your point about "what I was taught" - but as a flying instructor would you teach anything other than the published version? (PACER perhaps - that's what I was taught)

(And just for the record... if UK procedures changed to omit the service required from the initial call I would argue equally forcefully in favour of that.)

[dublinpilot]

Well Dave, as I've shown you above, that's perfectly correct in the UK, and perfectly incorrect everywhere else :ugh:

dp

[windriver]

Well Dave, as I've shown you above, that's perfectly correct in the UK, and perfectly incorrect everywhere else


Maybe there's a case for registering it as a difference in CAP413 Appendix 1 (Differences)

That way UK trainers would have clear guidance on this ...

[On-MarkBob]

A number of UK ATS units require that on initial call-up you use only your call sign:-

After changing frequency simply "G-XXXX" or call sign and flight number, ie. "Speedbird 123". In the professional arena, this is becoming more common. As a previous writer has suggested, this books your place in the queue for attention.

This has also been extrapolated further and many pilots now miss out the station called when changing frequency. ie. "speedbird 123, flight level 340".

There is far too much 'talk' over the airwaves in a busy ATC area. You need to be quick and short.

The writer who claims he has never heard this from professional pilots has not been on the correct frequencies and listened to what goes on. It's good to be precise, but sometimes it is just too busy and many have already stated above that if you just 'blast ahead' and reel out a whole load of information, you'll simply get "station calling, standby" or "station calling say again" or even "who's calling", Much to the disgust of other aircraft also trying to make contact, since they now know the same guy is going to reel out the same load of verbal taking even more valuable time.

In a terminal area a jet aircraft will cover a great distance very quickly and in the time it has taken to 'say again' the aircraft has moved on and maybe should be talking to another unit or controller. The ATC controllers are sometimes very busy and cannot just cut to your message, comprehend it and reply. The best way is to say your callsign and FL or altitude, after that the ATC can reply when they are ready to do so. They will ask you what you want and maybe even respond with an instruction straight away, that happens quite allot. The amount of 'blocked' transmissions, due to two or more pilots transmitting at the same time is increasing every year. By letting the ATC controller 'control' the operation in his own time is known to cut down this problem.

Bob.

[JohnRayner]

So, different strokes for different folks then, yes?

Personally, in flying (as in life) I like to give my conversational counterpart an idea of what I want from them early on in the day, if only so's if it turns out they can't help me, I can move on to someone who can with a minimum of delay.

I can see the argument for placing the ball in ATC's court depending on their workload, but I would argue that e.g. requesting RAS early on might lead a busy controller to say "RAS not available, suggest you try Xxx, or accept FIS" instead of "hello", "what do you want?", "I want this", "well you can't have it 'cos I'm busy".

Having said all of the above, If the CAA changed back again tomorrow, I would go with the changed rules (so long as they made some sort of sense!), in order to keep up with current perceived best practice.

Regards,

JR

p.s. I see some people posting regarding the ins and outs of commercial RT. I have no idea, but, terminology aside, is it the same as PPL level RT? Ta!:ok:

[Ultranomad]

My FI gave me an explanation why we first start with just a call sign (well, maybe a couple of words extra): it's just a common courtesy to attract the operator's attention first, improving your chances of being identified correctly. For the same reason, he exhorted me to say "XXX INFO, good morning, YY-ZZZ" rather than "XXX INFO, YY-ZZZ, good morning". Yes, I know, RT manuals explicitly discourage greetings, but everyone around here uses them unless the frequency is really busy, and in fact they do have an important implicit meaning: "don't confuse me with anyone you are already tracking".
Also, at a small airfield, the radio may be on a squawk box, so the operator may need a few extra seconds to walk back to the desk and grab the microphone.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Dave, your tone and attitude stinks young lad. You asked a question (although it turns out to be rhetorical because you're not interested in any answers) and a number of people with significantly more aviation experience than you have gone to the trouble to give you an explanation. If you speak to an examiner in the same manner you shouldn't make it out of the briefing room on your next test.

Now if you can pull your head out of your own arse for a moment, I'll precis what a number of professional pilots and controllers have already told you:

Why many pilots make first contact with only agency and callsign:

It is ICAO standard RT.
It is standard practise for many.
It gives the controller freedom to run his frequency effectively.
The controller may be communicating on another frequency that you can't hear.
The controller may be talking on a landline.
The controller may be handling higher priority comms than you eg an emergency.
The controller may already have a queue of aircraft with messages to pass.
Your handover may have specified callsign only.
The frequency may be too busy for all aircraft to give their full normal messages and the controller will only ask you for what he considers relevant.
You reduce the chance of stamping on another transmission.
And many other good reasons.

If on first contact you launch into a two minute epic, you may block a busy frequency, cause aircraft that are awaiting an urgent clearance to enter holds or risk busting a previous clearance limit, cause aircraft to go out of range before they can get further handovers, screw over the controller who's listening and talking on a frequency you can't hear and, after all that, you'll still get a "Station calling stand by".

Call with a quick "Agency, C/S" and you don't cause all that mayhem.

I have sat alongside a controller working ground, tower and approach, VHF and UHF on each, and two landlines at a busy unit. That's potentially seven other conversations that you know nothing about. The last thing he wants is badly timed waffle on multiple channels.

Of course, this is not so applicable to the A/G service at some sleepy little club - but it answers your question. Now having asked the question, try very hard to actually comprehend the answers you've been given. Try hard to cut out this sh1t:

it's wrong and sloppy RT
I've never heard professional pilots do it, I'd hope they don't!

POINTLESS
wasting their time making them call you back

A number of professionals who have probably spent more time checking pitot heat on walkarounds than you have total hours, have given you pretty reasonable explanations as to 'why', that should make perfect 'sence' [sic] to you. For you to then tell them that they are incorrect, sloppy and unprofessional when in actual fact they are verbatim ICAO compliant is not going to win you their support.

Well done for asking a question but it's worthless if you refuse to listen to the answer. Take it onboard big man.

[Final 3 Greens]

Dave

When you start to fly properly, post PPL, you will find that a lot of people use non CAP413 wording.

e.g. "make that a radar heading."

People still use terms like 'QSY to the enroute', as well.

Strangely enough, the systems seems to cope.

[Captain Smithy]

I can't help but feel there's a lot of pedantic nit-picking on this thread.

Usual procedure is "Station, Callsign, Intentions/Request", but often "Station, Callsign" will suffice. Varies from situation to situation and place to place. Big deal. Why the big fuss? And what's the difference? :bored:

Seems like someone is getting their breeks in a twist over nothing. :rolleyes:

Smithy

[Whirlygig]

p.s. I see some people posting regarding the ins and outs of commercial RT. I have no idea, but, terminology aside, is it the same as PPL level RT? Ta!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gifWhy terminology aside? A JAA RT licence is a JAA RT licence and it's the same licence that carries you through to ATPL :} At a commercial level, you are expected to be slicker on the radio (no ums and ers) and be thinking ahead (i.e. pick up your own ATIS on approach to an airfield).

There will be many occassions when non-standard, non-CAP413 compliant RT will be required; blinding following it 'cos that's what it says, may leave you unprepared if you're caught in an unusual situation.

Cheers

Whirls

[Spitoon]

Knowing the books and good practical application are two different things. In any case, with R/T the books say it's a guide to comms. Someone who does everything by the book irrespective of the situation shows poor situational awareness and can, quite frankly, be a pain.

I'm not advocating using non-standard R/T all the time but the original question should not even be an issue. A pilot should be able to judge how best to contact ATC - if it really is a freecall then pick up some cues from the current frequency use....if it's quiet go in with your service request, if it's busy and the controller's voice suggests he or she is working like the proverbial paperhangar then go in with callsign only and they'll call you back when they can.

It works the other way too - but maybe you don't spot it. Many controllers will modify the delivery of information and instructions depending on the pilot's voice etc. Smooth, flowing R/T will get far more info in one transmission than someone who is struggling to remember the precise order that information should be passed in or who tells the controller their 'life story' in the initial call.

Knowing the rules is important so that you can fall back on them when it becomes necessary - where language skills are limited, for example.

But don't get too hung up about it - there are far more important things to do by the book when you're flying.

[On-MarkBob]

Very Good, Spitoon I agree entirely!
The Law says a licensed hackney carriage can 'Park' anywhere he wishes and the law includes the fast lane of a motorway. It comes from the days when he could stop anywhere to feed his Horse! The law still stands, but would anyone consider this a 'proffesional' thing to do? The world moves on, equipment and proceedures get better, we now have telephones in our cockpit and can dial up the ATC on the land line. You have to move with the times! But use your sense and judgement for the circumstances on the day. If you are inexperienced or unsure, then back to basics.

[bookworm]

Hi Tower i'm Dave.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Oh well.. i want a FIS
Ok, pass your details

But that's not a realistic sequence. It should be:

Hi Tower i'm Dave.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Here are my details and I'd like an FIS please

which differs only superficially from your

Hi Tower i'm Dave and I'd like an FIS please.
Hi Dave, what do you want?
Here are my details

If it's going to require further exchanges anyway, it doesn't make any difference.

If the request is short and standard, sure, pass it in the initial call. Sometimes it can help the ground station to pick up the right piece of paper or even expect the right pattern of words. But the Tower can probably anticipate that you're going to ask for FIS rather than a bacon sandwich. ;)

If the request is non-standard, or long and complex, then there's not much point in confusing the controller. It works both ways. Even after communication has been established, I'd prefer a "G-ABCD, Stephenville" to pre-warn me of a non-standard message or request that might need a pen and paper. Conversely, you'll also frequently hear those professional pilots on the control frequencies saying "Stephenville G-ABCD request" to pre-warn the controller of a non-standard request which would undoubtedly lead to a "say again" if it came unannounced.

[BackPacker]

If the request is non-standard, or long and complex, then there's not much point in confusing the controller.

Heard at Lelystad a while ago:

"Lelystad Radio, N999X, request a taxi"
"N999X, Lelystad Radio, be advised this is an uncontrolled field. You can taxi without clearance."
"No sir, N999X request you call a taxi to take us into town."

[DaveD]

Obviously someone's getting their knickers in a twist. I'm not trying to instil rage into people by making this thread i'm just raising something which happens alot which isn't standard stuff and to me, personally makes no sence to do.

Can I just reiterate that this thread is in the Private Flyers forum and this isn't intended for professional pilots. I doubt a 757 flying into the UK is going to ask for a Flight Information Service.

This is purely for outside controlled airspace, not main airports.

Fg Off Max Stout : You've not read what I wrote.

If on first contact you launch into a two minute epic, you may block a busy frequency, cause aircraft that are awaiting an urgent clearance to enter holds or risk busting a previous clearance limit, cause aircraft to go out of range before they can get further handovers, screw over the controller who's listening and talking on a frequency you can't hear and, after all that, you'll still get a "Station calling stand by".Lengthy waffel? The initial call should be Call sign and what you want to request... thats only..Again, the initial call isn't a lenthy waffle, what im getting at is when you first talk to them, you tell them what you want, saving them having to call you back to ask you what you want..

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6458/gabcd.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gabcd.jpg)

If he wants me to standby, perform a barrel roll, jump out the plane.. whatever... he knows what i want straight away, he doesn't need to call me back to ASK me what i want.

Maybe it's just me, I know there's lots of non standard stuff but most of it is sence, and will cut a corner perhaps.. But by making him call you back to ask you what you want isn't cutting a corner, it's just silly.

Sorry Grandpa

[Whirlygig]

Can I just reiterate that this thread is in the Private Flyers forum and this isn't intended for professional pilots. I doubt a 757 flying into the UK is going to ask for a Flight Information Service.

This is purely for outside controlled airspace, not main airports.
There is an awful lot more to aviation than that. It's not just Cesspits versus Airbuses; there's a whole gamut of aviation in between.

A pilot who flies for a living (i.e. a professional, commercial pilot) may be flying in roles that are encompassed with GA e.g. from private field to private field, charter work, corporate work; it's all classified as GA. Private flights can be flown by commercial pilots and there are issues which we have in common. Please do not confuse "private flying" with "amateur flying"!!!!!

We all (mostly!!) have the same RT licence so to say that this forum and this thread is only for PPL holders is daft, quite frankly.

Secondly, it's not a black and white issue of either uncontrolled airspace or main airports; I fly from an international airport which has radar service and which is not in controlled airspace.

Obviously, given a number of explanations and the matter still doesn't make sense to you, makes me think you're not able to take on new ideas. You may well prefer your call initiation but it's a bit disingenuous to say it's sloppy RT if people don't agree with you.

My knickers are not in a twist; you asked for an explanation of why people did things, you got the explanations but now youre saying they're wrong. It's not wrong, it's different and nobody else seems to be bothered one way or another (OK, maybe one other person is!!).

Cheers

Whirls

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Well mate, as I said there's anothing wrong with what you suggest at the right time and place. Add any details (over and above agency and C/S) that you consider relevant on your first call if you judge it appropriate. I'm not really getting my knickers in a twist - it just really grips me that you seem to trying really hard not to listen to anyone who has answered your question of 'why' and whose views don't match your own (which I suspect are based on rather limited experience). PPL R/T should not be different to ATPL R/T so don't be so quick to discount the opinions of professionals who talk to controllers on a daily basis.

Once again you are throwing around terms like 'silly' regarding those who have given you a true and correct answer to your question. You've even had a controller reply to you agreeing with what many of us have said, but I guess you'll write him off a sloppy and unprofessional idiot, as well. I suggest that if you wish to progress in aviation you'll want to adjust your attitude somewhat. Good luck anyway.

[DaveD]

I've read what everyone has written and taken it on board.. the reason i'm saying it's silly is because to me, it does seem silly.

You told me to get my finger out my arse and cut out some "sh1t"? I don't think it's only me that needs to look at ones attitude.. When did I say idiot? Why are you making things up?

Either way, there's people on here that agree and some that don't. If an RT examiner who has to be a professional, tells me that it's wrong to do it then who should I believe, Him? Or some old flyers on PPRUNE?

P.S. Wasn't referring to your knickers Whirls :O

[nick14]

RT examiners don't have to be professionals, just have to pass a test with a CAA examiner. I would expect them to have a descent knowledge and a sensible view on things.

I agree with Whirls and co on this one, and im not an old flyer, im a fATPL holder with 100hours GA experience on top of the commercial.

I am surprised that you think a controller would have this response:

Tower, this is Nick,
Hello Nick, what would you like?
I would like a Basic service please
Ok Nick tell me your details.

On the initial call I usually say:

Radar, G-ABCD (flying from EMA they are busy at times)
G-ABCD pass your details/message
PA28 blah blah request Basic service.

If they are not so busy I might add on the Basic service request on the initial call. It really does not matter, you will offend many people on here if you start flashing cap413 around saying everyone who does this is sloppy, or has a poor RT maner.

This has been said before in an above post.

No offence meant just an opinion

Nick

[BabyBear]

I've read what everyone has written and taken it on board.. the reason i'm saying it's silly is because to me, it does seem silly.

Dave, the above can be read as because you say it is silly, it is, irrespective of what others say.

You probably didn't mean it this way, but think this might be an example of what Fg Off Max Stout is referring to.

[DaveD]

If thats the case then people need to lighten up.. I'll keep my opinions to myself.

[BackPacker]

I doubt a 757 flying into the UK is going to ask for a Flight Information Service.

Not so fast. A FIS is implicit in the service they receive as an IFR flight within controlled airspace and if they need something other than a clearance or position report, they've got exactly the same problem of getting the controllers attention without taking up too much airtime.

"Approach, Speedbird 123, request"
"Speedbird 123 standby"
[...]
"Speedbird 123, go ahead"
"Speedbird 123 request a weather update for XXX"

The "request" told the controller that something non-standard and potentially long-winding was forthcoming. But the exact same thing would be understood if the word "request" was left out.

And to make matters worse, amongst others Ryanair pilots are known to dial up INFO frequencies on box 2 to ask for weather updates if their main frequency is too busy and their destination is not on VOLMET.

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Dave, maybe it does seem silly to you but you've been told why it's not silly. My slightly forceful comment was merely a response to your general reaction to the replies you've been given and the four examples I quoted (out of many I could have used). Your manner just get's people's backs up.

Whilst you haven't used the word idiot, that has been your inference and you have said 'timewasting', 'pointless', 'sloppy', 'silly' and said that professionals should not use such R/T. You may not like what you perceive as my attitude but, the bottom line is that I get paid to operate aircraft and I have a bit of experience behind me. Feel free to disagree with my suggestions but don't tell me I'm wrong and sloppy unless you can back it up. This shouldn't even be a right/wrong issue - we're merely explaining why many people use this sort of R/T, but you seem determined to object to the explanation.

who should I believe, Him? Or some old flyers on PPRUNE?

I suggest that next time you don't waste your time or ours by posting a question on the Professional Pilots' Rumour Network if you've already decided what the answer should be and you won't accept anyone else's opinion. Don't forget that 'Flying instructor' does not necessarily mean particularly experienced.

'Lighten up'...yeah. I was pretty chilled out until you basically told me that I've been doing my job wrongly for several years.
:ugh:

[jonkil]

Lighten up boys....... go and do a bit of flying or knitting or something to alleviate the stress :ugh:

[dublinpilot]

Dave,

I really can't believe that you've gotten so wound up about this. The difference is so small.


Your way, which is correct in the UK only
Made up twr, Gxxx request traffic service
Gxxx, made up twr pass your message
Made up twr, Gxxx <message>


The ICAO way, which is correct everywhere else
Made up twr, Gxxx
Gxxx, made up twr pass your message
Made up twr, Gxxx <message> flight information service

The difference is so small that noone should be getting too upset about it.

But since you're getting so upset about people using the incorrect phrasology in the UK, do you follow the correct phrasology when outside the UK, or do you stick to UK phrasology when abroad even though it's incorrect?

dp

[140KIAS]

During a number of visits to & talks from the NATS chaps at our nearby busy BAA operated airport, the thing they say annoys them most is pilots that call up dont state what they want in their initial call.

Their reason - if you tell them what you want in your initial call then they can prioritise you accordingly without the need for further dialogue.

Therefore my calls are usually XXXX Approach, request Flight Information Service or XXXX Approach, request zone transit.

[DaveD]

At least it aint just me :bored:

[Final 3 Greens]

In my experience, which is not huge but has been gained since 1993, what a controller wants on initial contact will vary with workload and their personal preference.

So a judgment is required.

If the frequency is quiet, I might say more "Madeup App, G-ABCD, VFR west abeam Buttville, 2000 feet, with Alfa, to rejoin.

On the other hand, if the frequency is busy, it will be "Madeup App, G-ABCD" and I'll be expecting a "standby, remain outside controlled airspace (if the latter is applicable)"

This is a matter of airmanship.

CAP 413 is a pilot's guide and is not exhaustive.

Thisi s really a very minor point and DaveD would do well to step back and avoid over focussing on somethihng that is relatively unimportant.

There are far more important things to concentrate on IMHO

[windriver]

Thisi s really a very minor point and DaveD would do well to step back and avoid over focussing on somethihng that is relatively unimportant.

With this in mind the answer to DaveD's valid and sensible question is:

"An aircraft should request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station."

Everything else is opinion.....

[Jumbo Driver]

DaveD, "MadeupControl, G-ABCD" is a perfectly acceptable way of establishing two-way contact.

I have both heard and used it many times in my professional career - just because you have never understood it, doesn't mean that it can't be appropriate. Also, the fact that you can't find it in CAP 413 doesn't necessarily make it bad practice.

It can be beneficial when trying to get a word in on a busy frequency and you have anything other than a briefest request, just to ensure you have the controller's attention and are not just blocking his frequency by inadvertently stepping on another transmission. As another example, you may be talking to an area ATS (e.g. London Information), where there may be another conversation going on that you are unable to hear. Or maybe the frequency has been quiet for a while and you wish to confirm you still have two-way contact before launching into a long request.

Certainly, if you are taking an initial R/T test and wish to be totally "CAP 413 standard" for your examiner, you can choose not to use it. However, even though your R/T examiner may not have the experience to explain it's benefit to you, I can assure you that, in appropriate circumstances, it is in frequent use. It is clearly expected from time to time; otherwise, why would "G-XXXX, pass your message" be standard RTF phraseology, as a reply to an aircraft?

JD
:)

[enq]

Dave

You're confused & thus confusing - compare & contrast your comment

This is purely for outside controlled airspace, not main airports.

with the title of your thread

Madeup Tower, G-ABCD...

My Preference for initiating contact is the standard callsign / callsign, wait for acknowledgement.

I immediately thought about this in a situation where the "service" request is a joining instruction from approach. In these circumstances, to call up "XXX Approach, G-ABCD request joining instructions" without giving other essential info such as current location is just going to cause the controller more work & lengthen the process.

At the very least I would then expect a withering "G-ABCD, pass the rest of your message"

There are a lot of knowledgeable folk posting on here (I do not include myself in this) so I would take their advice & experience at face value and accept that different situations require different responses.

Regards, enq.

[windriver]

Seems like some people say

An aircraft should request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station... is OK

and others say

An aircraft should not request the service required on initial contact when freecalling a ground station...


But which is best?

There's only one way to find out...

FIGHT :ok:

[pistongone]

The OP's objection to "x-twr, gabcd" as opposed to "x-twr, gabcd request bacon sandwich with tomato sauce and plenty of black pepper" seem's to be that he considers the latter to be less time wastefull? Well it certainly takes more time to pass this message and if for some unknown reason the station is unable to reply(radio just gone u/s, or sudden case of food poisoning fall out:ooh:) then he would have wasted more of his time uttering a longer initial call. Remember that if on first contact you receive no reply, then wait 10 secs and repeat, still nothing then one more time. If still no answer then proceede with blind calls. This procedure was installed to take account of the fact that a radio station, for whatever reason, may not always be answered. Therefore its pointless saying any more than who you are untill you have established contact!
And i must agree with Fg Off Max Stout and all, that your tone and attitude seem to be one that may not be best conducive to aviation. Basically you sound like a prat:eek:
Safe Flying one and all!!

[Ivor_Novello]

What I personally prefer

MadeUp Radar, G-ABCD requesting xxx service.

why ?

-if I don't have your details, I'll have to catch your callsign and write it on a strip (if I am on the phone, the headset will have the phone line in one ear and the RT on the other one, so it's easy to mishear things)

-if I know what type of service you're after I can already think ahead in terms of separation (if required). This is more relevant if IFR.

-when you tuni into a frequency, you don't have a good awareness of how busy it is, or what's going on, as you haven't heard what's going on yet. There could be more important things to do. If you hog the frequency with a long call, someone else could go thru the ILS while listening to your trip details.

So, yes keep it short and simple, with a request of the service.

If planning on a zone transit, or requesting a service from a busy unit, it is always recommendable to phone your details to the ATC unit before departure.
That way, the assistant (for as long as we have them !!!) will have your details prepared and that will improve your chances of a slick and seamless response !!! :)

[Jim59]

3 Flight Progress Strips
3.1 Commonly, flight progress strips are used to display flight data. The following information may be of use to ANSPs in developing a system of flight data display utilising flight progress strips.
3.2 Strip Design
3.2.1 Strips should include pre-defined markings to permit specific items of information to be recorded in a standard manner. Colour should be used where possible to clearly denote different types of flight. Typically, flight data relating to arriving flights is displayed on buff coloured strips, departing flights on blue coloured strips, local flights on pink coloured strips and transit flights on green coloured strips.


I was taught radio by an ATC. He liked to know on initial call just enough to know what colour strip to use to write down your call sign, otherwise he might need to throw away the first strip and start again on a different one. The quote is from the ATC Manual Part 1.

[nick14]

Ok actual example:

yesterday I was dropping someone off at Cranfield. On the return I contacted Coventry Radar for a service and heard the following:

Coventry Radar, G-XXXX C152 from XX going to XX VFR 2000 1018 request basic service.

G-XXXX that is far too much information for the first transmission, Callsign only on first contact

Its not sloppy RT to use just callsign, its just a different approach that some controllers prefer.

Nick

[Halfbaked_Boy]

nick14,

I agree with that, but I always include what service I'm requesting on initial contact, for example,

"Cranfield Approach, G-XXXX request basic service".

Just gives everyone a brief heads up on what you want exactly :ok:

[Jumbo Driver]

Coventry Radar, G-XXXX C152 from XX going to XX VFR 2000 1018 request basic service.

G-XXXX that is far too much information for the first transmission, Callsign only on first contact


Hmmm ... that's rather condescending ...

Just imagine it the other way round - how would a controller react if a pilot were to respond:

"XXX Approach, that transmission is too long. Three specific phrases only in each message."

I think it is called interpersonal skills ...


JD
:)

[mad_jock]

Heard once going into leeds as an Intial call.

"Leeeeeds approach G-xxxx eh up"

Controller never missed a beat and cleared him into the zone via Eccup at not above 2k.

The read back was "Champion G-xxxx"

[nick14]

I do sometimes depending how busy the frequency is.

Interestingly did anyone hear the problems yesterday with people requesting odd services and an air of confusion over the new system?

My pax was commenting on how no one sounded like they knew they were asking for/getting??

Nick

[modelman]

All the foregoing semantics has been quite entertaining but the main message is TALK TO SOMEONE.

Does it really matter to get the call exactly correct-the contact is the important bit and the fact you are letting ATC and other traffic that you are there?

I,myself prefer 'Anytown Approach,this is G-XXX' and then give all the detail after 'pass your message'.
If you have got 'standby' after rattling off a long first call,you're only going to have to do it all over again:{

MM

[fisbangwollop]

From an Area Fiso's view.......please on initial call use callsign only.....I then will resond with either GXXXX "Standby".....that means I am busy doing other things!! or GXXXX "pass your message" that means please tell me your requirements i.e. C152 Prestwick to carlisle passing Cumnock 3000ft VFR request a Basic Service.........job done!!!:ok:

[Gargleblaster]

I shall be flamed, but this entire thread sounds entirely silly to me.

People talking about what some ATC or instructor tought, told or preferred...

Surely there must be a rules regulating how an initial radio call is to be made ? Should be the end of the story ?

Not saying that things are better where I come from, but if a pilot does this:

"XX-ABC YY Tower"
"XX-ABC Go ahead (or pass your message)"
"Request entering zone via bladibla"

She shall be ignored to death and left burning fuel while circling !

Correct example: "XX-ABC is a Airbus three eight zero, two persons, VFR from A to B, position somewhere, X feet, squawk seven zero zero zero, received information charlie, request entering control zone via Z for full stop landing"

[JohnHarris]

http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1240.gif

[what next]

Good morning!

Surely there must be a rules regulating how an initial radio call is to be made ?

There are rules for everything. In this case, _the_ rule is called "ICAO DOC 9432 Manual of Radiotelephony". There are many national excemptions to these ICAO procedures that can be found in the AIPs of the various countries. Only these are relevant. Not what your textbook, your instructor or your local ATC buddy wants you to believe.

Correct example: "XX-ABC ..."

Correct maybe in Denmark, not correct once you cross the border to the south. See german AIP or geman "NfL I 81/05" (that your friend google may find on the internet and that contains the current radio communications procedures in my country). It specifically states that VFR flights must only pass their message if so instructed by ATC. The only exception being frequency changes where you may pass your message immediately when calling the new frequency. (IFR procedures are slightly different). Note that "GO AHEAD" has been deleted from the phraseology some years ago. You may pass your message if ATC calls you back with your callsign alone.

And coming back to the example above: Just imagine someone being on a two mile final, waiting for a delayed landing clearance, when such a call comes through. The aeroplanes I fly are not the biggest or most expensive to operate, but still your "correct" call will cost my boss something like 500 to 600 Euros for the go-around. He will love you forever afterwards...

Greetings, Max

[beatnik]

Why is Gargleblaster flying an A380 with only 2 POB? Either he's lost all his passengers, or he's not entirely legal for a ferry/test flight. :ok:

[n5296s]

Definitely 100% agree with JohnHarris on this one. Good grief guys, get over it. Keep radio calls short, to the point, and appropriate to the level and nature of traffic on the freq. Use common sense. Don't obsess over the GUIDANCE given in the manuals, do the right thing (within such actual rules as exist of course). How hard is that?

It's times like this that I'm so happy to fly in a country that doesn't obsess over this kind of irrelevant trivia. And don't even get me going on Mayday vs PanPan...

n(thank goodness)5296s

[mike172]

I'm a PPL who flies from Cambridge, which has seperate tower and approach controllers.

When departing and tower hand me off to approach I call up with "Cambridge APP, G-XXXX request basic service." - Lets them know who I am and what I want.

When returning and approach pass me off to tower I call up with simply "Cambridge tower, G-XXXX."

The two controllers sit next to each other in the tower, the tower controller knows that I'm landing so why say anything more.
Whenever I've called up tower with just my callsign I've never had a problem, they come back to me with joining instructions and that's that.

[Gargleblaster]

Thanks "whats next" / Max for your reply, I think you illustrtate the problem: Seemingly in the UK there's no standard and ditto globally. I e.g. have no idea what "basic service" means !!!. I'm amazed that aircraft carrying thousands of people can cross the continents each day without any real standard phraseology.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm a PPL who flies from Cambridge
In the Good Old Days, before last Thursday, you'd just call "Cambridge Approach G-ABCD" and they would recognise the callsign of the based aircraft and correctly assume you were coming home and just get on with it. Today there was all the "pass your message" and "basic service" stuff ... I wonder whether this will last, or whether things will settle back down to how they were ...

[Gargleblaster]

Why is Gargleblaster flying an A380 with only 2 POB? Either he's lost all his passengers, or he's not entirely legal for a ferry/test flight. http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Either because he's stinking rich, or because he's stinking rich. :rolleyes:

[eharding]

It's times like this that I'm so happy to fly in a country that doesn't obsess over this kind of irrelevant trivia. And don't even get me going on Mayday vs PanPan...


Some years ago, I do recall while I was thumping round the circuit in a PA28 with the Waltham CFI that a United Airlines 777 flight inbound to Heathrow was so un-obsessed with such trivia that the crew spent a good five minutes calling on 122.60, and were only finally convinced that the finger trouble was at their end when informed that the only landing option was 900 metres grass. It is with a degree of irony that the only 777 crew to know what a short field grass landing feels like don't fly for Untied.

As for getting you started on Mayday vs. Pan-Pan-Pan, it might be a start if the self-appointed imported Guard Police on 121.5 in UK airspace weren't quite so easily defined by a specific accent....reminicent of banjo duels, and canoe trips which end badly.

Don't get me wrong - your sentiments are sound - I'm all for appropriate, and preferably short and pithy RT, but being lectured on the subject from a nation where the official regulatory text on the subject appears to have been drawn directly from the script of Smokey and the Bandit, is a tad annoying - to say the least.