Blocked Runway

[hatzflyer]

I arrived overhead a private strip recently,only to find someone playing football with their dog in the middle of the strip. Having circled several times(annoying the locals) I decided to do a low pass to get them to move.
This had the effect of getting them to look up at me and wave!(but not move!)
After some considerable time,longer than it took fly there,they moved and I landed.
They then came up to look at the aircraft with the dogs off the lead before I had shut down.
This is not the first time this has happenedto me.

Taking the recent tragic events with the giro into account it could have been worse,as indeed it could have been had I been low on fuel.

Bearing in mind the people should not be on the runway,was I wrong to buzz them? (500ft rule) and if I HAD to land (for whatever reason) would that have made any difference (500ft rule)?:confused:

[LateFinals]

In my view you were wrong to buzz them. You were not making an approach to land and broke the 500ft rule. If you had an engine failure while buzzing them you could have killed them and yourself.

They may be irritating ignorant XXXX, but if they choose for whatever reason not to respond to your circling I would have gone elsewhere and maybe discussed it with the strip owner later to consider fencing, signs etc.

LF

[Heliplane]

I tend to agree with LateFinals but to be honest I'm not sure I would have acted differently. Must have been very frustrating and hopefully you politely pointed out to the idiot in question the error of his/her ways.

[deltayankee]

By far the safest policy is to go somewhere else because these visitors can be totally unpredictable -- especally the dogs. You should never be so low on fuel (or daylight) that you have to land.

If the circuit restrictions permit you could try lining up for an approach but then give up on final long before the threshold if you see that they don't understand your intention. I don't see how flying a low pass over the field will help.

Non pilots have no idea of the danger and you will find all sorts of things on little used grass strips. Dogs are the most common hazard but I have seen people with horses and even someone giving driving lessons. Mostly this happens when the strip is so rarely used local people don't realize it is a landing strip.

I assume that the strip is not yours. In this case you might want to have a word with the owner. Very often the visitors are regulars from the area and someone can have a chat with them.

[hatzflyer]

The point here that I did not explain very well in the first post is this...If i diverted to another strip somewhere and then return later ,the same thing is likely to occur!
Also I should add that the "buzz" WAS 501ft .(obviously) but would I have been justified in going lower to make it clear that I wanted to land .

[deltayankee]

If you come back later and find it blocked again then maybe you need to go there on the ground and talk to the owner. Or you can phone the owner from your alternative and ask her/him to shoo away the visitors. Don't try phoning from the air unless you have someone else to take care of the flying.

And try going lower if you want but it will do no good. Even if you pass at 6ft over the grass they will only wave more and maybe film it with their mobiles for YouTube, the CAA and the police. They will not get the hint.

Best plan IMHO is to ask the owner to explain things to the locals and maybe put a small sign requesting they stand to one side and restrain their pets when they see an A/C approaching.

[TheGorrilla]

Ask the owner to stick an electrified, barbed wire fence around the place or next time you shoot the dog.

[gasax]

This is an issue almost inherent in farm strips.

My last strip was very popular with dog and other walkers. Yes they are a bloody nuisance but a conversation with them will usually much help. What will not help is 'buzzing' them.

Remember they have usually got no idea that you want to land - it simply does not register in their empty little heads that the neatly mown section of a field has not been prepared especially for them to walk their dog!

So if you want to cause difficulties for the strip owner/operator and yourself then just try and scare them off.

I'll admit to a few nasty comments to the elderly couple who took to parking their Range Rover in the middle of the strip but walkers - leave them be - 500 odd metres doesn take that long to walk (although it is a real pi**er when they walk to the end and then turn around and walk back!!

[DX Wombat]

The dog owners may not be aware of the potential dangers involved. A couple of years ago I had my caravan at Ashridge Farm Caravan Club site for a couple of nights. Also there was a family with whom I chatted. It transpired that they had recently visited North Weald and had let their dog run free - fortunately it was a dog which came when called. They were absolutely horrified when I quietly pointed out the dangers and why the landrover had gone out to them and asked me to apologise to NW on their behalf which I did - Aer Babe can confirm this. I am sure that theirs is one dog which will never again roam free around an airfield. I exercise my dog on the club airfield after it has closed. He has a wonderful time running free, tracking interesting smells and generally doing what dogs love to do but I always have one eye on the sky. During the day I use the old taxiway to get to the fields where he can run free in safety but he is always on the lead until we reach them and back on it before we get anywhere near the taxiway on our return.

[blue up]

1 piece of paper, A quick scribble with a chinagraph pencil, Several choice profanities. Dropped to the numpty from 501 feet. In defence you can at least claim it to be the least-risk option since the next aviator might (in your opinion) have decided to land anyway.

[christimson]

You would think that an approach with a safe go around, the walkers would get the message.

[ShyTorque]

Unfortunately, you aren't allowed to drop anything, even a piece of paper, from an aircraft without permission. See para 2.

Dropping of articles and animals
66 (1) Articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) shall not be dropped, or
permitted to drop, from an aircraft in flight so as to endanger persons or property.
(2) Subject to paragraph (3), except under and in accordance with the terms of an aerial application certificate granted under article 68 of this Order, articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) shall not be dropped, or permitted to drop, to the surface from an aircraft flying over the United Kingdom.

[deltayankee]

articles ... shall not be dropped, or permitted to drop, to the surface from an aircraft flying over the United Kingdom.

There are similar rules across most of Europe. This is what spares us from being bombarded with junk mail from above. Very sensible rule.

[hatzflyer]

but you can dump water ballast!:E

[deltayankee]

but you can dump water ballast!http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif


There seem to be more relaxed rules for glider pilots. In the old days some gliders were even equipped with "relief tubes" for the pilots. Be thankful its just water today.

[dont overfil]

Kids playing football on 34 at Perth last night. We used 27. Wind 340/12
The grass was probably a bit soft anyway.
DO.

[RatherBeFlying]

Anybody with a strip would be wise to have warning or no public admittance signs since in the case of any accident the lawyers will include the strip owner as one of the defendants.

In the case of a PPR strip, it is of course the PIC's responsibility to contact the operator beforehand. Perhaps it is the owner and his dog.

At our glider club, we do have signs up, shoo off the dirtbikers and other motorheads, and let the dogs and model a/c loose after the gliders have been put away;)

[Zulu Alpha]

This often happens with unmanned strips. We have dogwalkers, horse riders etc.

The worst is kite flyers who just lay all their lines out across the runway to untangle them. Luckily, the last time it happened I was on the ground and was able to go and grab all the lines etc and bundle them up so an aircraft could land. The kite flyers got quite disgruntled that I'd undone their untangling. They didn't even seem to realise that they had no right to be there.

You do have to be careful about buzzing them as someone was prosecuted for doing this at Nayland some time ago.

ZA

[Cusco]

You do have to be careful about buzzing them as someone was prosecuted for doing this at Nayland some time ago.

Simplest thing is to set up for a landing, discover the runway is blocked and carry out a go-around...............

Concentrates the interlopers' minds a treat.

If I see the strip occupied, I shove the prop to fully fine at 501ft in the overhead, wait a few seconds till all eyes are skyward due to the change in engine noise, then I lower the gear.

It's worked on the one occasion I've done it: by the time the circuit to land was completed the strip was deserted.

Cusco;);)

[JohnHarris]

Our sign on the gate works well:

"Trespassers will be prosecuted, Dog owners and plane spotters will be shot on sight"

[Cusco]

You are lucky to have a gate: our strip is completely open to the countryside and unsecurable.

Despite 3 foot high signs in Red/White on two Hangars declaring 'Danger Active airstrip Keep Off', the entire world and his brother treats it as open pasture, ignoring the fact that it is in the middle of private farmland.

Cusco.

[TheGorrilla]

I'm thinking an A10 "tank-buster" would be an ideal mount for a bit of strip flying. Better check the GAU cannon is fully loaded first. I'd hate to be dissapointed.

[Cusco]

We're thinking of inviting the Apaches from nearby RAF Wattisham to carry out a few day and night exercises over the strip.

A laser aiming beam from an Apache onto the midnight boy-racers' Astras as they carve up the strip doing donuts and handbrake turns might have a sobering effect.....

Cusco:rolleyes:

[deltayankee]

Bazookas, barbed wire, lasers, killer robots... You are all out of order.

Farmstrips are used 99% of the time for walking dogs and just 1% of the time for aviation. Remember that even on foggy, rainy days the dogs are still there. To the people in the area it is the aircraft that are unwelcome guests and not the other way around.

They also don't appreciate the dangers, but this is not their fault. I am sure that if the pilots of Pprune went to a gun club the members would shake their heads at the dangerous things they'd do.

There is only one solution that works: engaging with the local community. Go out to the field yourself one day and chat with the dog owners. Tell them that they are welcome to walk their dogs there but whenever they see an aircraft approaching they should leave the field, restrain their animals until the engine is switched off and never turn their back on the air traffic.

[englishal]

You didn't Buzz them...you were making a normal approach to land but had to Go Around due to blocked runway ;)

[TheGorrilla]

Pah!! I'll get those darn pesky ground dwelling peasants out of my way once and for all, shoot them all slowly Jeeves.

[mary meagher]

It is only good manners to phone ahead for prior permission.

It is only self-preservation to have enough fuel to go elsewhere; did you plan to refuel at this farm strip?

I'm wondering what you were flying at the time.

Glider pilots, before going cross country, must understand how to select a safe landing field. In addition to Size, Slope and Surface, we must look out for animals, and cricket players. If a field is cluttered with dogs, people, horses, you must go elsewhere.

[RatherBeFlying]

Slope, Surface, Stock, Length, Obstacles, Wind is the checklist.

Of course in a glider, go-arounds are not an option, but glider pilots at busy clubs get lots of practice slotting landings around other gliders and retrieve vehicles, and trying to avoid obstructing the glider behind. It does help to have a 50 yard landing roll:ok:

My favorite outlanding field is bare and regularly cultivated -- decent surface, no stock, rocks generally removed, not much crop to damage or cause a groundloop, unattractive to strollers and animals.

Even better is a strip where the towplane can come get me. A few strollers and/or animals in one spot a glider can work around, but a crowd is a different matter.

[Cusco]

Thread drift has rather missed the point: The original poster relates to problems at an established airstrip where aeroplanes might reasonably be expected to land, not a ruddy great field miles from anywhere that gliders tend to plonk in out of a choice of dozens of such fields .

There is a bit of a difference.

Cusco;)

[mary meagher]

Thanks, Cusco. There is a difference between a ruddy big field and a
farm airstrip. Usually a farm strip is narrow, short, and has tall trees at one end and power lines at the other! To have locals walking their dogs is the last straw, but unfortunately it happens.

If the strip is sufficiently popular and has enough traffic that aeroplanes might reasonably be expected to land from time to time, it should be signposted by the owner/farmer to warn the public, and have a nice unobstructed windsock in the middle.

Otherwise we must give way to those who do not appreciate the requirements of air traffic.

There are worse things than landing in a ruddy big field.

[Piper.Classique]

but you can dump water ballast!

or finely divided sand, as in "not still in the bag"


:suspect:

applies mainly to gas balloons, but hey, let's get creative!

[Cusco]

If the strip is sufficiently popular and has enough traffic that aeroplanes might reasonably be expected to land from time to time, it should be signposted by the owner/farmer to warn the public, and have a nice unobstructed windsock in the middle.


MM you've exactly described our strip:

Except no power lines and no trees: it's wide and long with clear approaches for miles.

It is barn door obvious that a/c fly from there as they indeed have done since 1974.

That doesn't stop the locals walking their dogs, riding their horses, flying their kites and even turning up in 4 x 4s for a shoot (yes, really).

A fair bit of afterdark Astra donutting , boozing and not a little sh*gging as evidenced by the cans bottles and rubberware left lying about.

Short of having armed watchtowers there's s*d all we can do about it:

Go some where else to land? Get real, my car's in the hangar..............

You can bet your sweet bippy I will land there eventually.

Not had to divert yet. Like I and others have said above, a (legal) baulked landing as the Yanks call it does the trick.

(Day only of course, what they do after dark is not relevant: a strip run in the morning before take off sorts out the previous night's detritus)

Yeuch: but somebody's got to do it.:yuk:

And there's always Article 73 of the ANO.

Cusco

[Cusco]

Certainly - nowhere was it mentioned to be an established airstrip as Cusco suggests.

If it's a private strip I would venture to suggest it's established.

Or are you suggesting private strips pop up overnight, operate for a few days then disappear as quickly as they came?

I agree it's a shame hatzflyer hasn't bothered to return as, amongst all the thread drift all his questions have been answered more than adequately.

Cusco:ugh:

[gasax]

To you and I 'an established strip' is fairly obvious. To Joe Public it simply isn't. That is the point we have to understand.

That big strip of mown grass, the windsock, the hangar - they don't mean anything to the average dog walker. In most cases they will not have seen an aircraft on the strip, if they have seen an aircraft in the vicinity they will not have linked it to that long strip of mown grass - aircraft do not land in fields is the usual response.

I've operated several strips and it frustrates me that pilots can be so stupid and arrogant when it comes to not seeing the viewpoint of the 'general public'. If you talk to them they are ALL surprised that it is possible to land in a field, legal to land in a field and that the police do not stop us landing in fields, thta we do not need permission from 'air traffic control' to land in fields.

That is why so many strips have all sorts of restrictions, why PPR is so necessary. The trouble that the original poster - and many others in this thread - can cause the strip operator is almost limitless.

That is why at my last strip we would only accept visits from people we knew well and why many of those we knew and all we did not, were simply not allowed.

[deltayankee]

if they have seen an aircraft in the vicinity they will not have linked it to that long strip of mown grass - aircraft do not land in fields is the usual response


Mr Gasax speaks wisely. To the average joe an aircraft is a big thing with Ryanair painted on the side. Once when I told someone I had bought an airplane she asked "Do you have hosties?" and "What kind of food do they serve?"

Even if people are vaguely aware that there might be smaller ones very few can believe that they can actually land on grass and without a control tower. It's not their fault. They don't know about aviation. I don't know about hunting. Maybe you know nothing about stamp collecting. It's not against the law.

[hatzflyer]

It is an established strip.
There is no ppr.
There is no phone at the strip.
There was no-one else on the ground (to shoo them away).
Whats the point of phoning before departure? The walkers won't be there then!
Can't legally use my mobile when airbourne.(No one to phone anyway).
I had enough fuel to reach an alternative in Germany if need be.
(I didn't SAY I was low on fuel) but A/C do develop problems.
I can't speak to them because I would have to BL$$DY land !!!:ugh:

[mary meagher]

Cusco; returning to your home strip, with your car in the hangar, suggests you know the local hazards and presumably are on friendly terms with the villagers?! So a "balked landing" may suffice to call attention to your intentions.

Strangers using your strip, without PP, should be less assured of a welcome.

Only one thing worries me, though, safetywise: that compulsion to get back to your car.. . . . . .

[Cusco]

Without wishing to prolong the agony of this thread: MM, Yes I do know the locals as we have a 20 year lease on the strip from the farmer.The strip is actually a long way from any habitation, situated as it is in the middle of a disused WW2 airfield long since returned to farmland.

It is clearly a strip as seen from the ground: there are hangars with big red warning notices (see earlier posts) and a windsock.

We do not encourage visitors by air and there are no markings on the ground to identify it as a strip from the air for this reason. We are strictly PPR for a good reason: 20 years ago an illegal para outfit arrived and caused great hassle with the locals before they were ejected: we now have a strict PPR briefing for visitors with charts showing noise sensitive areas which are emailed to anybody wishing to fly in.

Obviously my wish to return to my car would not cloud my judgement on safety grounds: I do hope you're not suggesting it would. Clearly if I returned to find a tent pitched in the middle I would go elsewhere.

I don't visit PPRuNe very often as sooner or later personal attack creeps in: 'arrogant' has already been mentioned in this thread.

The users of our strip are all well aware that its active - they are largely locals: (its well off the beaten track out of sight of 'passing trade') and will respond to an overhead join (not below 500ft), a change in engine note , a landing light and a dropping of the gear.

The go-around is a final but rarely used completely legal option.

Out

Cusco

[hatzflyer]

Slight thread drift but relevant to my original post with the giro incident.
Many horsey types have posted about aircraft scaring horses on the hunt,but they are quite happy to canter up my runway, double standards???

[Lister Noble]

I remember doing my tailwheel conversion at Clacton,and there is a footpath across the runway!
Most of the locals seemed to respect the fact that aircraft were operating,but the odd one seemed to be totally unaware of what was going on.
I fly from a grass strip and we have a "neighbours day" when we entertain,feed and take them flying.
It does help a lot with local relations.
Lister

[Hoots Mon]

Perhaps not my place to say it. But, lighting the touch paper and standing back........correct me if I'm wrong....:}

An exception from the 500ft rule includes any aircraft landing or taking off in accordance with normal aviation practice. ie landing with ppr on a private field.

Then, there's ANO Articles 73 & 74 saying "a person must not, recklessly or negligently, either act in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft or anyone in it, or cause or permit an aircraft to endanger anyone or any property e.g a person deliberately damaging an aeroplane or a pilot flying excessively low, carrying inadequate fuel, etc, would be in contravention of this Article."

Letting Fido take a leak, or galloping around on Dobbin in the middle of a strip (rather than the edge of the field) seems to me to be placing themselves and a landing aircraft (carring out its normal aviation practice) in danger, recklessly if deliberately done, or negligently if unknowingly so. A low level circuit to look at the fields' condition, or joining from the overhead, and going around because the strip is found to be unsuitable/ occupied IS normal aviation practice, right? And thus you're exempt from the 500ft rule.:ok:

Spot the man who's just re-reading his aviation law book - purely by co-incidence! :{

[hatzflyer]

I think you may find that you are not exempt unless it is a licenced field.
If it is an unlicenced strip you have to crash,you are not allowed to overshoot.:ugh:

[gasax]

As neatly demonstrated by a successful CAA prosecution quite a few years ago at IIRC Nayland?

The subsequent 'CAA guidance' was quite explicit - 'low passes' at unlicensed strip mean you breach the 500' rule.