Flights at risk as pilots refuse to accept 'demeaning' ID cards [Archive]

tr0tsky

16th Feb 2009, 09:08

PILOTS WARN ON ID CARDS NEXT STEPS

In what could be the first clash over the Governments intention to introduce ID cards and make it mandatory for airline pilots to carry them, the British Airline Pilots' Association (BALPA) has vowed to step up its opposition.

BALPA has written to the management of Manchester airport and London City airport - the first two locations selected by the Government to introduce the ID card to airside workers - and warned that pilots would not cooperate with the introduction of the ID card.

Seperately, in its submission to the Government's consultation on the ID card which ended on Friday ( February 13) BALPA warns of the difficulties that will ensue when pilots who refuse to register for the ID card lose their jobs.

Jim McAuslan, General Secretary of BALPA told the airport managements at Manchester and London City that they would be in the hot seat over this legislation and that pilots totally oppose what the Government is trying to force airport managements to do. He sent them a copy of BALPA's submission to the Government.

In this submission BALPA says: 'ID cards will have absolutely no value as far as security is concerned.'

It says of government attempts to force pilots to have ID cards 'this is nothing but coercion. Promises that ID cards would be voluntary have been broken.'

The Association says that forcing pilots to have ID cards 'is an affront to the people who for years have been, and continue to be at the forefront in the battle against terrorist outrages.'

'Your case that this will improve security has not been made. Indeed, it is clear, that you now recognise this as you claim that it will only make a contribution.'

And BALPA asks: 'what happens when the first airport worker refuses to register for an ID card? Our understanding from the draft regulations is ...that the individual will be out of a job. This could be an individual who has served his or her country as a Service pilot being told they are not now trusted. This is both unacceptable and demeaning and we will resist.'

Coquelet

16th Feb 2009, 09:15

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

Mikehotel152

16th Feb 2009, 09:20

Does it cost £5 billion in Europe? Nope, didn't think so.

flaphandlemover

16th Feb 2009, 09:28

What's WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG?????????:mad::mad::mad:

you can't be serious.... beeing screened all over the world by low class people, that get less money than MC Don... pays...
:mad: i am sick of taking off my shoes and take my laptop out of my pilot case..

If i would do somethingthing stupid... I AM SITTING BESIDE A CRASHAX!!!!!

I don't even need that... I HAVE TWO HANDS.......

STOPmplaying with us proffesionals, that are loving their job and bring milllion of passengers safe to their destinations everday all over the world....

PS. Are there any figures, how many guns, whatsoever armaments have been found by the screeningstuff of the airport, that Pilots or crew have carried on? :yuk::yuk:

WE ALREADY HAVE OUR ID CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Desperate

16th Feb 2009, 09:54

Well done to Balpa - but where are the other unions?

Engineers, ATC, ground workers - we need you all behind this. The time to tell your unions you won't stand for it is now, or rest assured the Stasi will pick you off one by one.

Max Angle

16th Feb 2009, 10:18

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

The concept of compulsory identity papers or cards is one of the things that defines a citizens relationship with their state, in the UK the relationship, currently under huge strain, has traditionally been one of the state as servant to the people. I would suggest that in many European countries the relationship is fundamentally different, the state appears to have more power of the individual and the compulsion to carry your papers with you at all times is a manifestation of that power.

Most of us in the UK want to keep the government at arms length and preserve the concept that the state is subservient to the people, we don't want ID cards even if, and it's a big if, they provide a little more security.

Well done to BALPA for fighting this one, in my opinion it's almost worth the subscription on it's own.

fireflybob

16th Feb 2009, 10:19

More on this topic at another thread:-

Identity Cards (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/341720-balpa-against-id-cards-tuc-congress.html)

I only hope BALPA are successful in overthrowing this edict from HM "Government"

oapilot

16th Feb 2009, 10:32

There was previously a large thread about ID cards on here which being an old technophobe I can't find at the mo.

However, to condense numerous pages into a brief summary (from memory), here are some of the important bits:

As a uk national working airside you will be required to buy an id card.

If you are not a uk national working airside you will not.

You are not legally obliged to show your National id card to anyone.

If you do not have a valid id card, the Govt have issued instructions that Disclosure Scotland will not provide a CRB check response that will enable you to obtain an airside pass. You will therefore lose your right to work airside.

If you do not advise the authorities of changes in personal circumstance/ that the card is lost etc you will face a hefty fine.

BALPA are making a stand against the forced purchase of id cards by pilots.

Various other unions have made noises against the forcing of ID cards onto its employees, however, as the unions are closely linked to the Labour government, there is concern that when the chips are down, the unions will not mount a credible challenge to Labour (this was a comment that was made by grass roots people within those unions).

There are issues over data security.

There are issues over what exactly the Government wants all the data for (your data can be linked to such things as loyalty card spending, your childrens Contact Point data, etc, etc).

There are issues about poor legislation which in theory would not prevent the outsourcing of database maintainance abroad in future. (The id card scheme is run by a private company -although a mojor shareholder is a government minister, I understand- so not a 100%civil service function).

The technology used within id cards is open to cloning (it has already been done) and will potentially do little to reduce the risk of identity theft.

The Government have not shown how aviation security will be improved by the scheme.

The issues of civil liberties, ethics, trust and acceptance by apathy I will leave you to decide for yourselves.

However, once we have them, there will be no getting rid of them.....

There were a number of very good posts on the old thread, which I haven't done justice to here, so apologies to any of you that I've unintentionally misquoted.

oap

oapilot

16th Feb 2009, 10:36

Thanks Fireflybob, I should have typed less and looked more!:ugh:

Old Fella

16th Feb 2009, 10:42

Flaphandlemover You are a pompous git if you really believe your own post. What the hell does a persons pay packet have to do with their character?

sprocket check

16th Feb 2009, 10:59

Down under we have been forced to get an ASIC - Aviation Security ID Card. It is totally meaningless, does not improve safety, is just another tax and costs a packet. Has to be renewed every two years and it's a PITA. The only thing that it's done is taken access to AVGAS away from non-aviation related activities, such as racing.

It supposedly prevents unauthorised access to an airfield. Problem here is kangaroos have a habit of unauthorised-ly accessing airfields...so rather than issuing all the roos ASICs, they decided to spend MILLIONS on fences...:ugh::ugh:

Many of the airfields are in the middle of nowhere, really nowhere.

Don't let them do it!
sc

hellsbrink

16th Feb 2009, 11:13

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

Correct, I have such a thing. But it is what it says it is, an ID Card and not something linked into so many different systems so any joey at the local council can look at my tax records, social security records, medical history, et al.

That's one hell of a difference in the way that the UK system will work and how it works here.

One other little nugget for y'all though. The cards are being issued but there aren't any readers set up for them yet. So you have a biometric ID card from which the biometric data cannot be read to prove the person carrying the card is who he is. Priceless

Phil1980's

16th Feb 2009, 11:25

Although you said pilots have the plane at their hands...so why the security checks of pilots?
They could easily sabotage another aircraft not their own...not that I would think that would happen as I trust all pilots...but just a thought...I wish we could have no security or problems...I wouldnt think ID cards would work...most people dont have a criminal past who actually commit the worst crime of the air

Litebulbs

16th Feb 2009, 11:35

I went to a meeting a few months back, that was set up by my union, Unite. It was with Marc Harris, who is the Chief of Staff, Central Delivery Team, Critical Workers identity Cards Scheme.

We had a robust discussion about ID cards and their benefit. One person saw their benefit, a Mr. Marc Harris, obviously. My unions position appeared to be that they are coming, so lets unite and get the various businesses involved to pay for them. Make from that what you will about Labour Party allegiance.

Mr. Harris also said if you have any further queries from yourself or anyone else, then fee free to contact him. His email is

[email protected] (if you cannot see this email and you would like it, then please PM me as it appears not to display.)

Most of the CEO's of UK Airlines have put their names to a letter showing opposition to the scheme being introduced for airport workers. I would imagine that this is because when the first groups apply for the ID card, then the individual would be looking for their company to foot the bill.

Spartacan

16th Feb 2009, 13:23

BALPA website:

BALPA - PILOTS WARN ON ID CARDS NEXT STEPS (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/PILOTS-WARN-ON-ID-CARDS-NEXT-STEPS.aspx)

The consulation response can be read at:

BALPA - BALPA ID Legislation Letter 2009 02 11 (http://www.balpa.org/Document-Library/Campaigns/BALPA-ID-Legislation-Letter-2009-02-11.aspx)

Quote:

Without being pompous about this, it is an affront to the people who for years have been and continue to be at the forefront in a battle against terrorist outrage that we are subject to the inuendo that we are especially dangerous and in need of further surveillance."

Quote:

Your case that this will improve security has not been made; indeed it is clear that you now recognise this as you now claim only that “it will make a contribution to improving security”. As the scheme expands beyond airport workers we see a situation where possession of a UK ID Card is seen by some as indicating suitability for air side access whilst not actually cleared to do so. This could take peoples eye off the ball as false perceptions on such sensitive issues are not easily corrected. Which will take precedence at the security gate – the air side pass or the ID Card? We would like to have a detailed explanation of the Government's concerns over the existing air side access arrangements and a further explanation as to how the NIS might make a positive contribution of any kind. The Government has singularly failed to change opinion amongst BALPA members but we are quite happy to lay your case before our members who represent 80% of the commercial pilots in the UK.

Quote:

We look forward to your response but on the current proposals you should be aware that we will be campaigning against ID cards and the regulations with all means possible and will be letting the Wave One airports know this

Reimers

16th Feb 2009, 13:32

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

As a German of course I am forced to have such an ID card. It doesn't do me any good, I still have to undergo security procedures entering the airport, I still need an airport ID (quite an undertaking to get one) at each airport to open doors to get to the crew room, and the worst is that they have actually started checking them when reporting for flights that leave schengen (reminds me of East Germany)!

So, all the best for your fight! I wish you sucess!

Carrier

16th Feb 2009, 14:17

Quote: “.............with a CAA issued airside pass valid for all airports.”

Where does this stop? Will the thousands of foreign pilots who regularly fly in and out of UK airports have to each carry one? Imagine if every aircrew member worldwide had to carry such a pass for every country (and perhaps every airport) they might be rostered to visit while on duty.

Identity documents for aircrew are already in use. Their titles are PASSPORTS and AIRCREW LICENCES. If the present versions are not good enough then improve them. Nothing will be 100% secure. (The Israeli government used to issue Canadian passports!) That is no reason to take a “shoot the whole village in reprisal” response and blight everyone’s life.

Hobgoblin

16th Feb 2009, 15:01

Hee hee. This would be funny if it wasn't so infuriating. Of course there's no readers available yet to read these cards. You didn't actually think anyone is interested if the cards are used or not, did you?

Let's stop and ask ourselves a question: Who is going to benefit from these ID cards? The company producing the card, the software etc etce etc? Maybe, but if it wasn't these cards they'd be spending their time on, they'd doing something useful so I can't really see a benefit there for them. They would just be earning the same money a bit differently, and possibly with a lot less hassle from the rest of the country.

No, the answer lies with the politicians. I am willing to bet a pound against a kilogram of buffalo chips that some politician is earning a few pounds somewhere in this process. Probably as a non-executive director, or as a paid consultant ,or as a little nest egg when he retires.

Is there any other reason they are so hell-bent on introducing an ID card scheme?

And don't for one minute think whoever else is in charge next time around (Tory/ Labour/ Lib Dem/ etc etc etc) are going to do anything different. "Oooh we'll stop it" says politician A from whatever lot "however due to the previous government's insistence on taking it so far we are now contractually bound to paying for the scheme."

It's obvious to even the meanest understanding that the ID card scheme as it currently stands is fatally flawed, and will not provide the slightest security benefit to us, its users. By all means let's have ID cards, but then let's do it properly, so that it will actually be difficult and expensive to forge, so that it will be backed up by proper research into someone's past to ensure he is who he says he is. What's wrong with having a barcode printed on it, like on a passport? Thousands of machines can read it (I bet you can even have a Tesco checkout read it if you wanted to) and these machines are already in place.

Also, why do they want to link everything into one huge database? Surely it takes one bad apple to give a criminal access and we're all vulnerable.

Madness.

BARKINGMAD

16th Feb 2009, 15:12

Wake up and smell the coffee, or rather the money, to be made by "The Authorities" and their partners in crime, the Security Industry. Every aviation security disaster has resulted in unknown fortunes to be made by those supplying harware and humanware to solve the problem of making aviation allegedly more safe from gun & bomb toting loonies. After Lockerbie, we heard of the neutron sniffing machines which would detect explosive chemical wafts from hold baggage. Apparently these machines were so heavy that Lgw terminal would have collapsed onto the A23 if they were installed without significant structural mods to the building!! However, doubtless the r&d on an open chequebook contract from govts various made a tidy pile for the industry and their lobbyists. Where is this kit now?? More casualties occurrred in the Air India bombing off S Ireland, yet the Canadian Authorities pigsed the investigation and no satisfactory outcome was evident. And the Lockerbie verdict is now so suspect that it may yet be overturned. The twin towers fiasco has spawned equally feverish activity with new hoops and loops to walk through which allegedly display the human body without clothes(!), so that ceramic and plastic knives can be detected. Hordes of new personnel have been hired to make life difficult for ID pass-wearing employees trying to get to work. The Glasgow incident means that a jeep loaded with nasties won't get near the precious pax, but the miles of perimeter fencing remain as vulnerable as ever to the same sort of attack on a hapless aircraft approaching V1. Known "good eggs" like family and company employees are barred from riding in the flt deck, yet many cockpit compartments are MORE secure from the boxcutter wielding fanatics by reason of the rigged jumpseat and the self preservation instinct of the 3rd occupant. NO, there is no fact, logic and reasoning employed in the pursuit of better security with multiple agencies getting in on the act and treating us all as guilty until proven innocent. NO, this govt and their partners in IT will persist with the National ID plan with all its costs following the serious losses of liberty already incurred under the ridiculous cause of "The War on Terror", as if such a "war" can be won. Whether a strike or similar industrial action will happen, against an economic downturn where those lucky ones still in employment are understandably fearful of losing their jobs, is debatable. "Chirp" has many reports where air and grd staff have been treated abysmally by the goons at "security", leaving them in a frame of mind not condusive to flight safety, but the CAA says it can do nothing until the flt safety case is proven, presumably by means of a "Tombstone Imperative"? One can only hope that the introduction of the latest moneymaking wheeze will be delayed by the inevitable IT glitches which plague all govt attempts to use technology to sort a problem whose roots lie elsewhere. At this point I think I'll go and lie down in a darkened until the fever passes, cos I'm sure it was all a bad dream......................:*

cameronaj

16th Feb 2009, 15:21

Leezyjet

16th Feb 2009, 15:30

Bimey Barkingmad, that post was hard to read. Not heard of paragraphs !!.

Flaphandlemover,

What a pompus t:mad:t. What the hell does a persons class status have to do with the job they do ?. There are many of the so-called Upper Classes who are in low paid jobs, and many working class who earn a fortune. One cannot simply assume that because one chooses a particular job that they are of a lower status than oneself !!.

:*

FlyingCroc

16th Feb 2009, 15:46

Damn ID cards, and yes the new ones are not the same like in Europe. These have biometric data, iris, fingerprint, traffic history, medical history etc, etc, plus the ... unsafe RFID chip. Total crap for the new big brother Stasi type state. And yes on top of that, those idiots that order you around to take your .. shoes of. No courtesy, no respect. And yes you .. morons, I have a crash axe and a control column, what the hell are you checking my toothpaste. Sorry for the rant but I am ... tired to be treated this way everyday while I operate a 100's million dollar airplane and Hundreds of lives. DISGUSTING :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

757_Driver

16th Feb 2009, 16:41

For anyone who doesn't think that civil liberties are a problem in this country maybe I should point out that as from today it is now illegal for anyone to take a photo of a policeman (or anyone in the military, or any military installations or ...or...or...etc) in this country.
Nice.
Welcome to 1950's soviet union.

IcePack

16th Feb 2009, 16:48

Trouble is that the data on these new cards are not secure. Anyone with suitable equipment could get the data by just walking past you, so I am told.
Identity frauds will be on the increase methinks.:mad:

The Actuator

16th Feb 2009, 17:11

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the ad banner at the bottom of this page offers a device to read these cards!!!!

The only thing that is surprising is that there are people who are still surprised.

v6g

16th Feb 2009, 17:15

Historically, whenever governments have wanted to implement an unpopular change, they have turned to the church. The fear of disobedience that religious doctrine instills in a population from birth is a powerful one and was an excellent tool in controlling behavioural persuasion.

Today, with declining religious beliefs, and increased personal enlightenment due largely to the internet, this method is rendered less useful. So governments (and large corporations) use other methods to spread fear in order to achieve their aims (the terrorist threat level is now "Yellow"). The age old rule of how to implement a deeply unpopular change is to implement it slowly - allowing the population time to accept each incremental intrusion into their lives. Thus there are PR firms specializing in advising companies and governments on how to best achieve their fiercely-opposed aims.

My guess is that the real reason behind the introduction of ID cards is solely to enhance tax revenue collection, by aiding the tracking of both domestic & international money movements. Nothing else can substantiate the cost of implementation. There will be other ancillary advantages for the Government such as cross-referencing benefits claims and health records. Of course, none of this can be officially announced because of the certain ensuing public uproar.

The simplest way to implement such a change is to begin by spreading fear (the threat level is now "Red with orange stripes"). Fear of terrorism is the easiest to use since it is entirely speculative and the Government has a strong reason for not substantiating their claims ("Trust us. We can't tell you why but you should all be very afraid.") and my personal favourite, "It's not a matter of if but when".

Once you've spread the fear, the next step is to start countering that fear with a "trial run" over a "limited period" with a small "sub-set" of the population. A good choice would be a generally law-abiding group, whose obedience to rules is already closely monitored anyway, and whose income stream is totally dependent on their compliance. Pilots fit this description perfectly.

The next step will be to continue the trial on a voluntary basis, expanding it to other groups. After all, the threat of terrorism still exists - it cannot be proven otherwise (the threat level is now "Purple with gold polker-dots").

At around about this point, the "Passport Office" would quietly be renamed to the "Passport & Identity Office"

Then will come the complete integration with everything we do (still just on a voluntary basis), opening a bank account, visiting your doctors surgery, enrolling your kids at school, filing your tax return.

Then, quietly, buried at the bottom of more lengthy "Anti-terror" legislation - the system finally become compulsory.

Et voila ... the change has been implemented and every law-abiding citizen now has something to scrape the ice off the windshield in the mornings.

hellsbrink

16th Feb 2009, 17:31

Hellsbrink, my fellow Belgian, the details on our ID cards go into a central database where, in time, any knuckle-dragging Tom, Dick and Harry in a government department will be able to access ALL our details. The Brits should hold out to the last man, woman, child and beast!

But what are the details on the ID card? Taxes? Helth issues? Financial details?

You see, this is what I am getting at. The guy at my local "vreemdelingdienst" cannot get my tax records. The police cannot get my medical records. Etc etc etc.

Now, I do know a litle bit about these things as my late g/f did actually work on the computer systems for certain government departments, and I take her word regarding how things are.

The UK system, however, wants to put EVERYTHING on one central database so any joey at the Gemeentehuis can look at every single aspect of your life. As far as I know, that isn't happening over here but it is in Blighty........

Of course, if they get away withit in the UK then eveyone else will do the same

BarbiesBoyfriend

16th Feb 2009, 17:38

The first step required if you wish to control a population, is to list them.

The ID card is simply a way of listing and numbering people.

hellsbrink

16th Feb 2009, 17:40

737Jock

Because I'm a "furriner" here (born and bred in the land of the rising haggis) I have a paper ID card too.

What info does that carry apart fom my name and address and a photo? Hell, my Belgian driving licence is only a piece of paper with my photo on it.

But some of us have been used to carying passports with us (I used to work at LHR, doing all kinds of 'leccy stuff, you might have heard me swearing) and when I go on vacation, I carry my UK passport. When I am here in België, I always cary my UK (biometric) passport and ID card. Nobody will dispute who I am, and if I am pulled over (again) for an ID check, which notrmally happens after *ahem* beers, it's only a minor inonvnience.

BUT... An ID card should only be that. Something that says who you are and no more

hellsbrink

16th Feb 2009, 17:43

The first step required if you wish to control a population, is to list them.

The ID card is simply a way of listing and numbering people.

National Insurance card. Mandatory at age 16

FullWings

16th Feb 2009, 17:43

I am actually looking forward to this confrontation. The reason it has come down to BALPA to stop the rot is that without pilots there is no aviation. Period. Even Tony in his exec. jet will be unable to set of on his Middle-Eastern hotel inspections.

Most other staff groups have either unions in the pocket of the Government or can be picked off slowly while the show goes on. On the day the first pilot can't work because he doesn't have this useless ID, the runways and skies will fall silent until this stupidity is corrected.

I've always wondered what drove people towards a revolution and I'm starting to get an inkling of why they come about...

FlyingCroc

16th Feb 2009, 17:48

It is time to tell them bastards to stuff it. It's time to stop this Big Brother Stasi snooping system. Also in the states they start snooping, fingerprinting, snitching on every aspect of our life, all in the name of those"terrorists". Terrorists they are but state sponsered. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

sussex2

16th Feb 2009, 18:26

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

I believe it is the information the card is designed to contain that is causing the problem.
In the EU the cards are simple documents of identity, which is not what is intended in the UK. Or, is not as far as I can ascertain. As usual what has been released to the public is vague and fluffy, not accurate and distinct as it should be.

mupepe

16th Feb 2009, 18:42

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains.

I'm not British, don't you hold passport along with you in your flightbag?
I don't see then what's the difference in term of privacy especially the one containing data chips with all your informations.
I've ID card, credit card sized, with limited visible info about me "not showing my private adress either" containing a chip of datas...and nobody was looking for it so far through digital readers.:)

md80fanatic

16th Feb 2009, 19:00

The passport RFID is the same as any RFID scheme, completely NON secure.

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Paradise Lost

16th Feb 2009, 19:09

No 2 ID.
I predict a riot.
So peed off, I'm joining BALPA.
This government has spent 11 years decimating our civil liberties.
This ID card will finally achieve their agenda of total population control.

call100

16th Feb 2009, 20:27

As someone who has been fighting this at all levels for a long time, I congratulate BALPA on it's stance.
However, It will not be the action of a group of people who defeat this. It will be the first individual penalised for refusing to have an ID card.
The Government have been using the consultation to find areas of least resistance. At the last meeting with the Home Office officials they said that the ID cards at the trial airports would only be required by new employees and anyone stupid enough to want one on a voluntary basis. During the trial period no one would be forced to have an ID.
Comparisons to European Identity cards is a waste of time and effort as is arguing with those who make the point.
The UK Government will link many databases to the National ID scheme. The UK Government are forcing children onto a database under the guise of protection. What they want to eventually create is a generation who take tracking and ID for granted and have no thoughts against it.
MP's, High ranking Government Officials and Celebrities(?) will not have their children registered. This is for security(?) reasons.
The Country needs to wake up from the sleep it's been in for the last 10 years and start demonstrating. Lobby MP's, Write to News Papers. Kick out the MP's who support this bill. Whatever it takes.
One things for sure. If this was a Tory policy, all the TU's would be on the streets marching. The fact is that apart from BALPA, they are letting down their members and playing politics with peoples lives.
Nice to see the Pilot community stepping up to the mark.....:ok:

bar none

16th Feb 2009, 21:44

FLAPHANDLEMOVER........................If you PROFESS to being PROFESSIONAL please be PROFESSIONAL and learn to spell it correctly.

Nicholas49

16th Feb 2009, 22:13

This really is a perfect opportunity. As a profession, you already have huge public support. Holding your ground on this issue will only increase that standing and may well get this ridiculous scheme wiped out for good. Look forward to the stand-off. Good luck!

FlyingApe

16th Feb 2009, 22:14

Whoooo. Pink Handbags at 30 paces. Don't worry about ID cards, the spelling police are out there!

Get a life. It's the expression of opinion that count - not the spelling. We all get tired and hmake mistakes sometimes! :yuk:

Lynx

16th Feb 2009, 22:15

As UK pilots we already have 4 different types of ID. I carry all of these to work every day.
1.Passport.
2.Driving licence.
3.Pilots licence
4.Airport ID (additionally to Disclosure Scotland my airport now requires an IRIS scan to be recorded on the airport ID).

Why on earth do we need a 5th type of ID card? What is wrong with the 4 we already have?
:=

ZQA297/30

16th Feb 2009, 22:50

One of several versions of Burke's famous quote:
All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing
I am retired, but I still feel strongly about this issue, and I am really happy that BALPA has taken up the cudgel. Now is the time to nip it in the bud.

Starbear

16th Feb 2009, 23:15

And this lady should know. here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/4643415/Spy-chief-We-risk-a-police-state.html)

cheesycol

16th Feb 2009, 23:35

I can see no reason why ID cards should be implemented, and further more why they should be trialled on some of the most security burdened and bureaucracy laden staff in the country. Specifically related to flight crew, the frustrations that are felt whilst dealing with the security SS now are bad enough, let alone adding another level of checking to the process of reporting to work. When will this be officially recognised as a factor in flight safety?

BALPA have my full support in this matter, and I hope non-BALPA colleagues also consider giving the union their support.

411A

17th Feb 2009, 00:21

Flights at risk?
Only perhaps for UK airports....AMS, CDG, FRA etc and the airlines based there will benefit.
It will have an overall very small effect on European air travel.
BALPA?
Ha! A paper tiger, as usual.
The locals will huff and puff....and accept what they are told.
As usual.

llondel

17th Feb 2009, 04:56

The locals will huff and puff....and accept what they are told.
As usual.

I think you'll find that the British, while accepting of most things provided they can whinge about them, are capable of really making life difficult for the government when things really do annoy us.

Road pricing protests started quietly and ended up with over a million people taking the trouble to let the government know what they thought. Poll tax suffered a lot of protests from outright non-payment to those who just made it difficult. Fuel tax was another one that got them going a bit.

The UK government budget for ID cards includes an amount to deal with those who are not going to willingly participate in the process, so don't assume that ID cards will ever reach the masses. If nothing else, hopefully the electorate will just go for one of the main opposition parties, both of which have said they'd abolish the cards and the evil database behind them. The next election must take place either this year or next year and ID cards aren't due until 2012 for the masses.

ExSp33db1rd

17th Feb 2009, 06:18

What is wrong with an Identity Card ?
In Continental Europe, everybody has one and must carry it at all time. People are used to it and nobody complains

So why have a PASSPORT ? :ugh::{:ugh:

( and an Airside Pass !! ) :ugh:

ExSp33db1rd

17th Feb 2009, 06:22

FLAPHANDLEMOVER........................If you PROFESS to being PROFESSIONAL please be PROFESSIONAL and learn to spell it correctly.

bar none - big deal, did you have any difficulty in understanding what FLAPHANDLEMOVER was trying to say ?

Have you NEVER misspelled a word, or made a typing error when using a keyboard ?

Smart A*se

Wig Wag

17th Feb 2009, 06:23

411a, given the restraints of the Patriot Act I wouldn't expect you to be able to fully engage in this debate.

A Very Civil Pilot

17th Feb 2009, 07:41

Although not a fan of Liberty (http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/), they are opposed to the ID card (http://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/issues/3-privacy/31-id-cards/index.shtml) scheme as well.

Capot

17th Feb 2009, 07:44

If the ID Card is intended to replace the Airside pass, as some people seem to think, and thus provide a pass that's common to all airports, it's doomed to failure in this role. Airports are required by law to instal systems that track each use of an airside pass. Firstly, they must be able to recognise every pass that's used, and secondly they are of different types. This is why the lovely idea of an airside pass that works at all airports cannot be implemented.

If the national ID Card is not intended to replace airside passes, which must be the case for the reason above, then it is just another form of ID (easily falsified) that must be carried as well as passports, aircrew and engineer licences, driving licences, etc etc, and as such is a pointless product of the Government's stupidity, driven by the firms that will make billions and the politicians on their payrolls.

A Very Civil Pilot

17th Feb 2009, 07:50

Also No 2 ID. (http://www.no2id.net/index.php)

Profit Max

17th Feb 2009, 08:00

To clarify:

ID Cards in Germany (and presumably in many other continental European countries) are simply a "Passport Light". For example, in Germany, you are not required to have an ID card if you have a passport. It is also an urban myth that you always have to carry it with you. You only need to possess either a passport or an ID card.

ID Cards can be used for travel within the EEA (= EU + Norway + Iceland + Liechtenstein) and Switzerland. Additionally some popular tourist destinations such as Turkey or Morocco do not require a passport from German nationals, but only an ID card.

The German ID Card is a lot cheaper than the German passport, a lot lighter and a lot easier to carry. Personally, I find it a lot less intrusive having to show an ID card when, e.g., opening a bank account than having to come up with utility bills, bank statements and other idiocies like that. The ID card only contains my name, my picture, my date and place of birth, my height, my eye colour, my address and an ID card number (which changes every time you get a new ID card).

I do not really understand the reluctance of the Brits to such an ID card; I however do understand the reluctance of having all data pooled in one big database. I can just imagine a civil servant forgetting a copy of the entire database on a data stick on a train at some point in the future...

ray cosmic

17th Feb 2009, 08:03

...or everything will end up like in this example:
http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf
:p

noodnik

17th Feb 2009, 08:08

"beeing screened all over the world by low class people"

This above comment says it all. A severe case of TNS (Toffee Nose Syndrome)
How dare the great unwashed dare to request to see our ID Cards, carry out searches and comply with Government Regulations.
Eejit

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 08:44

md80fanatic:
The passport RFID is the same as any RFID scheme, completely NON secure.

RFID stands for radio frequency identification. To say it is completely insecure shows a distinct lack of knowledge and respect of the subject. This is like me telling you professional pilots all you need to do to land is to "dangle the dunlops"

RFID works by means of passing the chip over membrane that can temporarily charge via induction the chip to transmit an identifying signal. How secure or insecure this is will be based purely upon implementation. Biometrics etc can be stored in a non volatile manner and can be interrogated as an when the chip is invoked.

Security wise this data can be encrypted in any number of manners - right down to the result being passed back to the interrogation system being defined by method of interrogation. Thus as a programmer I can build in security mechanisms as such that we cannot decode an RFID response without providing the biometric data such as a fingerprint as key (so to decrypt you would need your finger and the chip).

Whilst by no means foolproof and each implementation being different, for people to make a sweeping statement that its unsecure and worthless just shows ignorance of the technology.

As for the proposed/implementation in this scenario it makes me wonder what they are trying to achieve. I can undestand all the privacy concerns etc you guys have but then dont they have most if not all this information anyway in one form or another - is it they are just trying to streamline the getting of you guys through the gates to your aircraft?

I agree you all have access to the most lethal weapon available inflight which is the aircraft itself, with that comes the responsibility of being vetted for such a responsibility - as to being guniea pigs for the ID card scheme then alas its the way the world has gone at this point for better or for worse.

I back you on the privacy issue but what in reality is the alternative, the way we have been working has been proven insufficient. To me as a laymen mainstream ID cards is a different kettle of fish as I dont every day get to navigate a potential missile. I am sorry if I seem out of order in what I say but the responsibility placed in your hands is more than just the pax on your aircraft - its the damage you can do with it. Whilst you are vetted to be able to do this, a vet cannot be commenced at the start of every flight - I am sure we have all heard of the odd person here and there that have gotten their drivers licence by someone else sitting the test - these checks eliminate someone being substituted on the aircraft.

Personally I think all that is being asked is the verification that YOU are who YOU say you are, which is not unreasonable when your visiting an airport where your not known from the next person.

p.s. Profit max - its not an urban myth you must carry an ID or passport - I got fined for not having either on me just a few years ago.

parabellum

17th Feb 2009, 08:57

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 09:07

How about the pilot workforce, based in the UK, accept the ID card, once issued to them by, one assumes, a competent authority, on the understanding that a crew member will swipe his/her card through a reader and if 'OK' will now by-pass all other security checks and be allowed to proceed direct to the aircraft?

Thats no different from flashing a passport/air side pass to gain access. Only difference is that if challenged afterwards your biometric details e.g. fingerprints are stored on the card so they can be checked with a handheld device on the spot to see if they matched. Whereas to check the identity of a passport would involve removal of said person to a secure area whilst it was verified externally.

quant

17th Feb 2009, 09:15

IcePack

17th Feb 2009, 09:17

jofm5 that is the point. they are not using these cards to get us out to the a/c. we still will be using a basic airport id to allow us to do that. these cards are nothing to do with security but for whatever the uk government wants it for.

qwertyplop

17th Feb 2009, 09:20

Max Angle

17th Feb 2009, 09:21

Personally I think all that is being asked is the verification that YOU are who YOU say you are,

Which we already have in the airside ID system, they don't just give them out to however wants one.

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 09:28

Quant..

Nice vids.. But misguided.

God I am sounding like a proponent of ID cards of which I am not.

I would say from an aviation point of view it makes sense. Make the security as tight as possible, by that I dont mean strip you down to your underwear before boarding flights - I mean check you are you before letting you at the controls.

This would be as you go through to board - dont flash your ID, swipe it and press your thumb against a scanner and off you go - no harm done. There is no need for personal details stored, just a checksum of your fingerprint along with who it belongs to on the RFID chip. This does not even have to be on a central database just on the chip. Although it would be even more secure if they could match that to expected crew on a flight.

Look at how the Biometrics works on passports, the passport office does not interrogate a central database when checking. They check the checksum of your fingerprint against that of whats on the passport - very simple.

A simple explanation of the checksum is that the unique imprint of your fingerprint is calculated to a 256bit value, the machine that checks your fingerprint see's if it calculates the same value. Its not personal other than that value is unique to you. There is no reason for any agency to make not of that value and flag it up as a warning unless you have previously done wrong - so its in essence anonymous until you have misbehaved.

To reduce possible errors different algorithms will be used to cross verify this. This is all essentially the same way your PC will check to see if the files you are accessing are intact or not - its all old technology put to a new use.

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 09:30

Which we already have in the airside ID system, they don't just give them out to however wants one.

I bet not - but any problems with tightening it up ? Like I said it does not have to mean any less inconvenience.

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 09:36

You cannot be compelled in law to have your biometric card checked though by a private individual namely the barrier technician employed by the airport. So what's the point?

Seems to me that this is not about the access to a single airport per se but rather about identifying anyone BEFORE they ever get anywhere near an airport. Is it being applied to pilots to annoy them? No - I suspect it's more about the security people themselves, the baggage handlers et al. That's just my opinion though.

And the Police, Customs and Immigration staff have to have them too apparently, they are vetted in excess of anyone at the airport but will still need a card. Again, what's the point?

Why bother going through the main security point anyway - walk around the fence to the flying school at the back of most airports and walk through two unlocked doors to go airside.

My whole point is that there is no individual that checks you or holds your personal data.

Your biometrics are translated into a checksum - it is that which is checked against the checksum on the identification you are holding. It is very much like saying do you look like your picture on the passport photo except its alot more accurate and can be done in nano seconds more accurately by an automated device.

Very little different yet alot more reliable.

Grrrrrr I really sound like a proponent of id cards which I am not. But I do see the logic in this in respect of your line of work.

Profit Max

17th Feb 2009, 09:51

p.s. Profit max - its not an urban myth you must carry an ID or passport - I got fined for not having either on me just a few years ago.Presumably not as a German resident in Germany. There are other countries such as Belgium where you are required to carry an ID but not in Germany. You might be taken to a police station in order to have your identity established, or you may be asked to present yourself at a police station with your ID card, but you are not required to carry an identity document with you at all times. Some of the Länder explicitly state this. See for example BRAVORS | Personalausweisgesetz für das Land Brandenburg (Brandenburgisches Personalausweisgesetz - BbgPAuswG) (http://www.landesrecht.brandenburg.de/sixcms/detail.php?gsid=land_bb_bravors_01.c.14194.de) - §1,(6).

757_Driver

17th Feb 2009, 09:52

JOFM and all the others that think these are reasonable - tell you what - why don't YOU guys trial the ID card. We'll wait a few years to see what the goverment and police do with YOUR data and then we'll see eh. Just look what Stella Rimmington, former head of the UK security services has said today. Basically the government use scare tactics about terrorism to pass laws that restrict civil liberties. I really can't understand why some people don't get it. This is purely about the government having more control over you. Many people fought and died to preserve freedoms in this country, it is beholden on us to keep up the fight and most of you are failing at that duty.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.

This is one of my favourite poems which i beleive is relevent in all issues of civil liberties.

In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.

Those of you that think this is OK, coz it only applies to us - think about the above!

You think we should have ID before getting on the aircraft - hey guess what - we do, its called and airside ID pass, and once we are all forced to have these big brother stazi papers do you know what we will use to get airside? yep, the same airside ID pass as today. And guess what - quite a few pilots in my company are EU, non-UK, citizens, so i'd have to have an ID card, and they wouldn't.

And those of you who think we are being snobby with comments about security, if you had to deal with BAA 'security' staff every day you would form the same opinion. The weakest link in the chain will still be some guy dragged out of the neares job centre, not professional pilots / engineers / ATCO's etc.

Arkroyal

17th Feb 2009, 09:59

Profit Max:The ID card only contains my name, my picture, my date and place of birth, my height, my eye colour, my address and an ID card number (which changes every time you get a new ID card).

I do not really understand the reluctance of the Brits to such an ID cardMy opposition would be a lot less if thatwas what was on offer. The UK scheme is for a card carrying every bit of info about me that the government decide. It is totally insecure, and linked to a central dtabase of such Orwellian proportion, it should scare the cr@p out of everyone.

Adatabase available to just about any public servant who feels a needto access it. Late library books anyone.We know wh you are.

And why are we being picked as first in line?

Simple. The Gov know that the British people have a deep distrust and traditional dislike for such measures.

They also have a fair regard for professionals such as us.

So by denying us access to an airside pass unless we 'volunteer' for an ID card, it can be wheeled out to the great unwashed that Airline pilots, those trustworthy individuals, all volunteered, so what could possibly be the problem with you following suit?

:yuk:

Capot

17th Feb 2009, 10:00

Thanks, Civil Pilot, I had a look at that site.

Buried in it is the following piece of news..

ID interrogation centres are being set up all around the UK (see map, left). To begin with there will be 69, on top of the existing Passport Offices. A company called Mapeley, which owns the offices of HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), was given the job of setting them up.

Well now, I knew about the centres, but I didn't know that Mapeley is one of the firms that will earn billions form the Great ID Card Scam.

Now Mapeley is well known as the company to which the Treasury sold all its Inland Revenue properties for a tiny fraction of their value, only to lease them back again at rates well above the market rates.

It then took all that business offshore so as to avoid paying tax on the income from the Treasury. It is registered in Guernsey, where it is represented by a solicitor with a local reputation. Another triumph for Great Britain's Treasury under good ole Gordon.

The company is essentially run by a load of shysters who have a number of polticians in their pockets. So it's no surprise that their snouts are in the ID Card Bonanza trough. The question is, which politicians and civil servants are being paid off for that? There are 4, perhaps 5 of them.

PT6Driver

17th Feb 2009, 10:02

There seems to be some confusion here: The cariage of the National ID card will not be mandatory and you would not have to produce it going through security or indead anywhere else. It will however have to be produced when applying for a renewal or initial issue of an airport pass. As stated earlier you will not be able to get a disclosure check done without having a Nat ID.
The only added benifit would be confirmation of who you are when applying for an airport pass. However as has been already proved forgery of the proposed card is relitavely straight forward so criminal elements who want to can become 'good guys'.
Remember also that it is not just pilots but all airport staff who will be effected.
The main point of the exercise is to introduce the id card by the back door.
Most people are not against identification and proof of identity per se it is the incredibly intrusive and private information that will be colated and stored centraly by our trustworthy government that is the problem.
It will not enhance security and is potentialy a backward step.

DB6

17th Feb 2009, 10:09

The fact of the matter is that the UK government is demonstrably untrustworthy and not competent to oversee this matter. That has been proved many times. And I don't just mean the present government. The civil servants must not be given this amount of control over data as they are just not able to understand what they have, the importance of it, and the responsibilities that go with that. That is a matter of record.
If I thought that my data would be safe in the hands of these people I would not object to this scheme - as long as it replaced all the other foolishness we have to put up with - but I know it will not be safe.

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 10:29

JOFM and all the others that think these are reasonable - tell you what - why don't YOU guys trial the ID card. We'll wait a few years to see what the goverment and police do with YOUR data and then we'll see eh. Just look what Stella Rimmington, former head of the UK security services has said today. Basically the government use scare tactics about terrorism to pass laws that restrict civil liberties. I really can't understand why some people don't get it. This is purely about the government having more control over you. Many people fought and died to preserve freedoms in this country, it is beholden on us to keep up the fight and most of you are failing at that duty.
I'm sick of sanctimonious dogooders who think all this stuff is OK, because it only effects someone else.

Sanctimonious dogooder I am not thank you very much.
I do think your very much misled if you think all your information that has got you your airside pass is not already on a computer and free for the government to abuse at their will.

You missed my point entirely. The card itself is innoccuous - its like your airside pass but hell it contains a chip - and on that chip is a very limited amount of data - just enough to verify you as to who you are on the spot. Now if your thinking its the database about all you have to go through to get that card then your wrong - RFID's store very little information - its measured in bytes.

Now if you want to treat me as some sort of idiot that "does not get it" thats fine I will treat you like a 1hr trial pilot in the same respect.Like I have said all the way through this I am not a proponent of the ID card but I also say the card itself is not so much of an issue. Now if you wish to discuss the databases stored about you and the card holder then fine enter into a sensible discussion about it - I have 19 years dealing with such so I think I may have some sort of relevant input.

Just going off on an emotional this ID card is wrong and why dont you trail it is like a kid throwing toys out of a pram. Why dont you think about why the card may be good and the infrastructure behind it being at fault being a cause for concern. Although again - I will point out they SHOULD already have that information on you anyway.

I dont see above where I said it was reasonable - I did say it was understandable considering the capabilities entrustes to pilots hands.

737Jock

17th Feb 2009, 10:29

eh that's what I said hellsbrink

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 10:33

aftcargoheat

17th Feb 2009, 10:47

Excellent work, Jim Mc Auslan, keep it up - I think there should be a special newsletter sent to all BALPA members to heighten awareness of the campaign No2ID.

oapilot

17th Feb 2009, 11:37

Whats more worrying is if they tried to privatise such a scheme - who would get it group 4 ?

Agree, although more likely to be outsourced to a foreign call centre.

There has been a strong argument for a while to rationalise security checks at airports to one standard, that is quick (unlike MANs tardis), easy and more secure than that which we already have. This would be a worthy aim.

Sadly Jofm5, the Goverment is not interested in this, and whatever their ulterior motive, based on its previous actions in all manner of things, being heard to say the right thing is more important than actually doing the right thing. Therefore proclaiming that issuing an id card will improve aviation security when in fact it will play no greater part in the security process than allowing people to be issued a CRB check is an expensive joke.

If the Government really wanted to take the aviation threat seriously, there are plenty of other things they could do.

The UK Government lost my trust and respect a long time ago and nothing they have done recently has given me cause to change my faith in them. They have £billions to throw at foreign wars of questionable legality, paying bankers bonuses and a whole host of white elephants, but they could never find the money to fund hospitals properly, or look after the old or do anything to improve society other than provide spectacular soundbites and spin could they?

I'm off to calm down before I get banished to jetblast.

oap

Dengue_Dude

17th Feb 2009, 12:27

Do you think there's a niche market . . . for larger Nav Bags so we can carry all the ID docs for all countries and all airports within them?

This is utter madness. We'll still be subject to ALL the nauseating checks designed to save us from ourselves AND we'll have a posh new ID Card.

What on earth are these people thinking of? One thing for certain - it's actually not for OUR benefit as citizens.

Well done BALPA, with a reputation for being a 'toothless tiger', I'm proud of you!

md80fanatic

17th Feb 2009, 13:16

Whilst by no means foolproof and each implementation being different, for people to make a sweeping statement that its unsecure and worthless just shows ignorance of the technology.

I understand the technology well enough to make the statement.....in relation to people and RFID. The chips work great for products in the supply chain, but people aren't products, are they? I don't believe I said the RFID systems were worthless, just completely insecure.

Would you mail to me your bank and credit card information.....if it were protected by the most effective encryption scheme currently known? Strong as it is....would you still trust it in my hands? It's nice that technology advances, but possibility does not necessarily imply necessity. Who benefits? RFID manufacturers and the government, in the form of yet another layer of unwelcome control.

call100

17th Feb 2009, 13:45

Why are people not reading the thread?? People keep popping up making the same points that were shot down around page 1.
It's about the Database.
It's not like other European ID's
Even if you like this Government you won't know who could be in control of the database in say 10 years time...what if the BNP or worse actually get into power?
The Home Office have actually said that the NID is nothing to do with Security. So arguing that point is..well, pointless.
Biometric ID's have already been cloned and the Government is aware of this but brush it under the carpet.
The biggest threat to Security in this country is in fact the Government.....

liteswap

17th Feb 2009, 15:34

Quite so. And one issue that's forgotten in the comparison with other European states is that most have some form of written constitution or compact that spells out in more or less detail what the relationship between state and citizen is.

In the UK, there is none.

Nothing stops the UK government doing anything it wants - apart perhaps from the European Court of Human Rights, to whose charters the UK signed up, yet it remains among the worst offenders when it comes to the numbers of cases taken to and upheld by said COHR...so it's hardly surprising that people get pretty damned antsy about a central database policed via ID cards....

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 17:53

Sadly Jofm5, the Goverment is not interested in this, and whatever their ulterior motive, based on its previous actions in all manner of things, being heard to say the right thing is more important than actually doing the right thing. Therefore proclaiming that issuing an id card will improve aviation security when in fact it will play no greater part in the security process than allowing people to be issued a CRB check is an expensive joke.

I quite agree the government seems misguided on this issue and that an ID card will in no way improve security. It does smell somewhat of a big brother tactic but sadly in the not distant future I can see such a card will be required (in general life).

Before we all jump the gun and say no, I will relate to you my experience over the last week. I was in a position where I had to move homes and rent in a different town - the agents for the property I am now renting wanted quite rightly to prove who I am. For this I needed proof of adress of where I was currently living, i.e. the two utiliy bills and bank statements and recognised photo ID. This actually proved quite hard, my BT Bill, Bank, Mobile (not that it counted) and Electric bills were all paperless billing (as encouraged by giving discounts)- emailed to me on a monthly basis. I printed out the last couple of months and these were accepted on face value, probably because I had my passport and driving licence which were both recognised forms of photo ID.

The paperless bills are easy to forge given a bit of time and effort and we have to remember that not everybody has a driving licence or passport. So in essence a national ID card scheme could/may be a requirement in the not too distance future as the current eco drive pushes more billing online.

Back to the subject of crew being used as guinea pigs for such a scheme, firstly its not just yourselves but anyone immigrating to the country also who will be required to have the ID. Secondly with the RFID nature of the card it should be possible for any company to purchase the equipment to verify the identity of the card holder - this in future should lead to a low cost option for all security access points to standardise on one identity cards thus reducing the amount of cards to be held - of course no doubt some will want some visible identity that can be checked at a cursory glance. However like the oyster card used on LRT can be verified on spot using a hand held device so should an ID card be able to as the technology is not dissimilar.

Call100:
Biometric ID's have already been cloned and the Government is aware of this but brush it under the carpet.

Yes a biometric card can be cloned quite easily. You dont have to be that close to a scanner for RFID cards to work, a case in example is the new VISA payWave technology whereby your credit card can be in the general area of the scanner. Like with payWave being validated by you entering your pin a biometric card is validated by checking the biometric details on the card - retina and fingerprint samples are much harder if not impossible to clone. As for just replacing the biometric details to that of the cloner is not so easy due to the nature of the checksum on the card (Please read up on MD5 and SHA256) which bind all the details together into a digital signature which the card number itself is derived from - changing a single character from lower to upercase in the name radically alters the signature so the verification fails as would replacing the biometric details.

md80fantic:
Would you mail to me your bank and credit card information.....if it were protected by the most effective encryption scheme currently known? Strong as it is....would you still trust it in my hands? It's nice that technology advances, but possibility does not necessarily imply necessity. Who benefits? RFID manufacturers and the government, in the form of yet another layer of unwelcome control.

Interesting question... do you use internet banking ?, do you shop online? these all use the same encryption algorithms present in the technology for ID cards so there is little difference. Yes these encryptions can be broken but the time to do this and the processing power required negate this as being too much effort - identity is much easier lifted from the social networking sites and gained using those details.

In summary we can argue to the hilt against the concept of ID cards, it is more the thought of knowng someone is storing something about you and can aggregate data against that ID that is the deterring influence. In reality it is done all the time already - we already have tracking cookies on the internet monitoing your usage and targetting advertising towards you (e.g. google ads) and we already have the likes of tesco buying purchase history from other shopping chains so they can profile you and target your mail shots.

As for the government and how they manage your data (or manage to lose it) in reality they are no different to any other organisation public or not - it is just that the government have a responsibility to make you aware when its lost.

Like I said above - an ID card is not particularly something I want to see, its probably something thats going to be required soon. I think any fight against it will only provide a short term win in the end. The nonsense about national security etc I agree with being the wrong way to justify such a thing however there are alot more reasons to have it at the moment than not.

757_Driver

17th Feb 2009, 18:33

JOFM I think youve missed my point.
we should fight against it - no matter how small the victory because it is the thin end of a huge wedge.
At which point would you stand up for your human rights?
did you argue against the detention without trial of 'suspected football hooligans' 10 years ago? Or suspected terrorists more recently?
What about the ban on encrypted emails? or the sweeping snooping powers given to local authority beaurocrats who can now use almost all means to spy on you without ever going near a judge or a court? What about number plate reading cameras and their databases of your movements? did you argue against those? what about the new powers that allow government agencies to take away your passport and driving licence and dock your wages - again without all the bothersome worry of going to court? Nope?
When are you going to stand up?
when the stazi kick your door down and drag your kids away?

You think I'm blowing this out of proportion? well look where this country is now with human rights and freedoms and then think back 10 years. You, nor I would ever have beleived that all these restrictions on our freedoms came to pass without a whimper from a cowed population awed by a shiny toothed smiling idiot and a fat scottish control freak. Where will be in 10 years time? well I can guarantee one thing, if we don't start to push back then we deserve everything we get.
Its time for us to re-establish the principle that the government are our servents, not us, their slaves.

fireflybob

17th Feb 2009, 20:04

Spy chief: We risk a police state (http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.php?sid=65087573237&h=HculE&u=tM3NG)

Where will be in 10 years time? well I can guarantee one thing, if we don't start to push back then we deserve everything we get.

Well said, 757_driver

llondel

17th Feb 2009, 20:32

We don't need ID cards because:

1. If someone looks at the photo and decides it's you then that can be forged - my picture with your printed details.

2. If someone compares your biometrics with those on the card then that can be forged - my picture and biometrics with your printed details.

3. If someone validates the card against the database, that can be forged - my picture with your details and biometrics on the card.

4. If someone takes your biometrics and compares them to the database... why bother with the card at all? It serves no purpose.

All that will happen is that people will start to believe the hype that the cards are infallible when they're not. And that is more dangerous than not having them.

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 20:59

1. If someone looks at the photo and decides it's you then that can be forged - my picture with your printed details.
Yep as is the case with any photo ID.

2. If someone compares your biometrics with those on the card then that can be forged - my picture and biometrics with your printed details.
No, The details on the RFID would differ from printed details and should be picked up. You cant change the details on the RFID without corrupting the checksum.

3. If someone validates the card against the database, that can be forged - my picture with your details and biometrics on the card.
If as intended the biometrics are checked you it would fail - I dont look like you and my fingerprints/iris is different.

4. If someone takes your biometrics and compares them to the database... why bother with the card at all? It serves no purpose.

The card serves the purpose when biometrics are involved in validating who you claim to be.

The above points are aside from the issues - if what you said above was so simple it would not be adopted in the first place.

Dengue_Dude

17th Feb 2009, 21:12

Well that's OK then - right up to the point where some tosser loses it, leaves it on the train, loses his copy on a USB stick or decides to sell out.

What's wrong with what we've got already - God knows it's hard enough to get Airside passes - and Security don't take any notice of them anyway, we still get treated like criminals?

This subject does tend to raise the blood pressure somewhat doesn't it?

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 21:26

757_Driver:
JOFM I think youve missed my point.
we should fight against it - no matter how small the victory because it is the thin end of a huge wedge.

I dont think I have, it may come across that I am for the ID card but I am not - I just see it as being inevitable.

Last week I rented a new property, prior to moving in the agents wanted to do a background check on me, get references etc for which I had to provide ID. The usual documents were asked for - photo ID and two utility bills in my name showing my previous address. Now I have a driving licence and a passport, not everybody does so the photo ID was fine. Utility bills is where in modern life we are changing, each bill I get I no longer get on paper, I get emailed pdf's instead - these are incredibly easy to forge now. With more and more companies offering the financial incentive to get soft bills it is making ID detection alot harder. I can see in the not too distant future it being requirement to have biometric identity identification in one form or another as a means of fraud prevention which is becoming easier as more systems are automated. For this reason I see the biometric identity cards/driving licence/passport coming whether we like it or not. On the up side it will make things like on the spot verification of identity simpler and when you go for that loan on the never never you wont have to take wads of paper with you.

As can be observed, I have written alot on this subject on this thread - I studied the Social Implications of Computers as part of my Masters. I believe I could argue both sides equally well as there are both pro's and cons.

As for stand up and fight - I see this as chasing the horse out of the proverbial gate. For over 20 years now we have had ECHELON intercepting all communications, monitoring for keywords and looking for terrorist/fraudulent activity. ECHELON is the code name for a communications interception network that is run by the UK,US, CANADA, Australia and New Zealand amongst others.

In September 2007 it became EU law for all communications such as IP access to websites, telephone calls, mobile calls, credit card transactions to be stored for the last two years with ready access with at least the last six months worth being online and immediately available to the authorities. In my previous position I had to design and build such a system for a very large european communications provider and yes I did receive a number of calls from SO13 asking for details of specific events. Prior to 2007 the UK Law required 7 years of records to be kept but no requirement for being online.

So we can see that all the information is already there and accessible by the authorities. I cannot see how a biometric identity card is going to infringe any further on our privacy, I can currently only see the possible benefits to the holder of said card.

I personally am neither for nor against the idea, what I would stand up and be counted for would be a petition for a non politically associated agency that monitors,oversees and governs the use of the data that the government agencies already have access to. But that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Regards,

Jof

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 21:32

Dengue_Dude:
Well that's OK then - right up to the point where some tosser loses it, leaves it on the train, loses his copy on a USB stick or decides to sell out.

The point of the biometrics and the checksum on said card is so nobody else can use it. Of course that will only work if the biometrics are properly checked upon production.

I agree this does get people hot under the collar, but I think its more about being forced to accept another ID rather than having the choice to adopt it. What is more infuriating and fundamentlly wrong is the government proposal that we all pay for said ID Cards ( I bet some bright spark will offer to fund these cards in return for advertising on the back).

I do however think that if the idea was thought through properly it could be implemented so that you would only ever need a single ID card right from your library card to your airside pass - but I wont hold my breath.

Cheers

BelArgUSA

17th Feb 2009, 21:34

Shall I remind that in the early days of ICAO, the pilot licence was a document that was to be accepted in lieu of a passport/visa for pilots on international flights, and inherently as an identity document. A few ICAO member states observed that agreement. Of course, the USSR and other nations did not agree... and obviously, USA required all foreign pilots to carry a crew visa when landing there.
xxx
So forget about the good original idea ICAO had recommended. Makes me laugh, i.e. Brazil does not require a visa for most foreign crewmembers, except for crewmembers from the USA. Why... just deserved equal treatment since Brazilian pilots must have a crew visa for USA.
xxx
Makes me laugh also at UK people upset at the projected requirement for UK national ID. Certainly more convenient to carry than a UK passport. If I am a law enforcement officer in UK, and stop a person, how do I ascertain that you are the person you claim to be...?
xxx
So far, in USA, they still do not have a national ID, despite the acute problem of people living there illegally. However, probably 80-90% of people in USA have a driver's licence, which is the "ID" in USA. In banks, at airports, they often ask your "driver's licence" rather than saying "ID"... And every USA states issue optional "identification cards" for those people who would happen not to have a driver's licence. And you must prove to be a legal USA resident to be issued such an ID.
xxx
Every country I have been, born in Belgium, I had an ID Card there (proof of my name and address), in the USA I had, like almost everyone, my Driver's License to prove who I was, and now in Argentina, I have a DNI "Documento Nacional de Identidad" which happens to be recognized by Brazil where I am frequently. For me, a small ID card is a nice convenience, rather than having to carry a bulky passport.
xxx
I fail to understand the reluctance of Brits about having an ID card. Fact is, I did like the USA system, of using a driver's licence as ID, or an optional "ID" which clearly indicated "this is NOT a driver's license". Maybe UK should use the same concept, make the UK driver's licence a valid ID card document, and to those who do not drive, issue an ID card...
xxx
Increase or no increase of security...? Leave that to your police to decide.
:*
Happy contrails

Stoic

17th Feb 2009, 21:57

[quote]Increase or no increase of security...? Leave that to your police to decide.Belarg: Great. You are clearly in favour of a police state!

The attempt to introduce this coercive technololgy will bring the UK government down as the poll tax got rid of Margaret Thatcher.

Kind regards

Stoic

llondel

17th Feb 2009, 22:13

BelArgUSA:
I fail to understand the reluctance of Brits about having an ID card.

As has been stated here many times, the real issue is the big database sitting behind the cards. Every time you use the card where your ID is positively verified, it will be recorded on the database. This provides an amazing audit trail of everyone who has a card and uses it. Most of us don't trust the government to use that data responsibly or keep it safe (not a good track record on either). If I want photo ID then I have a passport, or I could apply for one of those new-fangled photo driving licences (mine's still a paper one). If nothing else, people object to the obscene cost of it all, given that we have adequate means of ID already.

If I am a law enforcement officer in UK, and stop a person, how do I ascertain that you are the person you claim to be...?

That's your problem. If I'm doing something worthy of your attention then a trip down the local nick ought to sort things out, if not, hopefully you'll go bother someone else. We've been promised (hah!) that it will not be compulsory to carry the ID card even when they're issued, so their existence won't help the police one little bit in this scenario.

llondel

17th Feb 2009, 22:30

Jofm5:
2. If someone compares your biometrics with those on the card then that can be forged - my picture and biometrics with your printed details.

No, The details on the RFID would differ from printed details and should be picked up. You cant change the details on the RFID without corrupting the checksum.

The point is that you'd have a completely self-consistent card for the person carrying it, but with a different name. If you think that the encryption/checksum can't be broken or compromised then I think history will prove you wrong (if the cards ever get adopted).

Jofm5

17th Feb 2009, 23:12

LLondel

Consider the following examples

SHA256 gives the following for the word test

9f86d081884c7d659a2feaa0c55ad015a3bf4f1b2b0b822cd15d6c15b0f0 0a08

and gives the following for the word Test

532eaabd9574880dbf76b9b8cc00832c20a6ec113d682299550d7a6e0f34 5e25

Just simply changing one character from lower to upper case vastly changes the result of the signature produced.

Within computer forensics creating a signature such as the above is an unobtrusive way of protecting a digital crime scene, when the evidence is presented the signature is checked to prove that no alterations have been made to the evidence - this is acceptable in most if not all western court rooms.

With sha256 there are 256^65 combinations that can be produced, whilst not limitless the chance of a signature conflict is so remote to be considered negligable.

To negate this possibility of a signature clash it is common to perform the signature again using a different algorithm such as MD5. This will result in two different signatures for a single item of data with more permutations than my maths can cope with. The chances of finding a signature clash on both algorithms that can be a result of trying to create anything meaningful are so infintesimal that it is not worth worrying about.

Encryption and Signatures are different - with a signature/checksum you can validate whether the data is has been tampered with. You cannot reverse engineer a checksum to produce the original data like you can with encryption.

md80fanatic

18th Feb 2009, 00:39

If the main database stands as the biggest threat to freedoms, the war was lost long ago. It's already here, and you are in it.

The RFID proponents love to brag about 25 foot detection range, but the truth even they don't know is that these tags can be activated, downloaded, and continuously monitored via satellite. What do you think about that, the possibility of being monitored 24/7 from space (if the various intelligence agencies so choose)?

If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto? :ugh:

Jofm5

18th Feb 2009, 00:55

md80fanatic:
If you can read the label on a golf ball from space, in any weather, you can hear a microwatt burst from an RFID chip. Do you think the GPS system was put in place so you could have a cool moving map in your auto? :ugh:

RFID do not emit anything when they are not being scanned so it is impossible to monitor the movement of a card via satellite. Not sure where you got that from but you best check your sources.

By passing an RFID chip over a card reader you are also passing it over a small induction loop that temporarily gives the small charge required for the transmission of the information. There are no batteries involved so there is no capability for continuous or intermittent transmission as speculated.

pilotbear

18th Feb 2009, 01:37

No one on here will do anything other than complain on here, and Balpa:ugh: will make this token effort in order to get more members then quietly do as they are told and drop it like they do everything else:E

Reluctantly I find myself agreeing with 411A (again)

md80fanatic

18th Feb 2009, 02:30

The chip cannot tell, nor does it care, from what source the excitation signal originates from, whether it be a scanner on the ground, or a focussed beam from a blimp, or even a satellite. You could illuminate an entire city or country, and then pinpoint your personal ID amongst the masses. As long as the ID card's antenna is sufficiently illuminated, it has the power to transmit it's code....often (I say in real time).

RF in the direction of space is quite efficient, and can be accomplished with a fraction of a watt using a horrendous 3 inch rubber aerial (rubber ducky) on a walkie-talkie. 12 years ago, in the first year I had a Ham radio license, I was too nervous to talk to the Space Shuttle pilots....but my friend did, with a milliwatt talkie using a crappy rubber duck. Also, we were indoors. A great starting spark into the hobby. :)

ID chips transmit with really low power, but it's a digital transmission and VERY resitant to atmospheric degredation. A half decent antenna (the size of a DishTV dish) in orbit could easily function as both an illuminator/receiver, down to an individual ID card if necessary.

I have no proof of course, but it -has- to be possible by simple common-sense extrapolation. Other tasks of equal and related difficulty (satellite digital and RF) have been done for decades, nothing new.

The ID card devices are sold as a convenience, not needing to remove it, swipe it, display it to officers, to be effective. Perhaps I have been asleep, but when did swiping a ID/credit card become such an imposition that we are searching for alternatives at any cost?

You are all correct, you can securely, confidently identify yourselves with any number of currently held documents, and a radio ID will not make you more secure.....so why do it?

Answer: Because you cannot be tracked 24/7, from space, with a magnetic swipe card.

411A

18th Feb 2009, 02:31

Reluctantly I find myself agreeing with 411A (again)

Sooner or later, most come around to my way of thinking....eventually.:}
I can agree perhaps with some Brit pilots that they don't want this national ID card business....sadly, their concerns are to be cast amongst the winds...it is a done deal, like it or not.
And, many won't, I'm sure.
Get used to it.
YOUR government is IN control....:E
Bletchley Park, anyone?:rolleyes:

White Knight

18th Feb 2009, 02:43

Sadly 411a it is indeed our government - but I personally have never voted for these labour party cretins.. In fact, I don't know anyone who does:confused:

call100

18th Feb 2009, 04:27

Gentlemen
I can understand the Yank not understanding....They understand little and in general think the State can do not wrong...The one thing a NID will not cure is illegal immigration. By it's very nature it is 'Illegal' as it is in every other country with or without ID. So it won't cure their Mexican problem.....
However, It does not matter what is in place now. There is nothing to say it can't be changed by a society slowly waking up to the State.
Biometric chips have already been cloned, So no matter how technical some want to make the argument, they are not going to convince me.
This Government have even thought ahead to people resisting the fines that will be levied for not changing (constantly) information held about them. They quietly changed the rules on Bailiffs to allow them to force entry. Something that has not been allowed for 400 years.
Despite EU legislation I do not think the NID is inevitable. My very nature does not allow me to be so defeatist.
Once again, I admire BALPA and the Pilots willing and able to resist the further creep of the Police state.

Wig Wag

18th Feb 2009, 06:27

411A wrote:
sadly, their concerns are to be cast amongst the winds...it is a done deal, like it or not

Don't forget the Yanks have the Patriot Act and dissent is frowned upon.

oapilot

18th Feb 2009, 10:37

No one on here will do anything other than complain on here, and Balpa will make this token effort in order to get more members then quietly do as they are told and drop it like they do everything else

Sadly the first part of your statement is quite possibly correct.

If the second part is too, then BALPA deserve to loose their entire membership, as do the majority of unions that have no intention of opposing the Government over this.

I do wonder what all those who object to BALPA will be doing to oppose the ID card scheme. Complaining on here, moaning about BALPA, and then going along with it I suspect.

Sorry, PilotBear, nothing personal but I've got a bit fed up over the years of listening to people in the crewroom moaning about "the cr@p payrise BALPA got for us this year", knowing full well that they got their payrise on the back of what BALPA have done when they're too tight to pay the subs themselves.

BALPA ain't perfect, but it seems they're all we've got on this.

And no, I'm not a BALPA officer.

oap

(Lights blue touch paper and retires)

Dengue_Dude

18th Feb 2009, 10:51

Quote:

YOUR government is IN control....

I think I'd have fewer concerns if they WERE, but they have displayed levels of incompetence far in advance of even the most optimistic of observers.

The government has even admitted that they have (unknowingly . . .) employed 'illegals' in the SECURITY business!

It seems our security clearances are most often predicated on the incumbent actually telling the authorities that they are unsavoury characters - obviously more efficient that way.

In the military this was known as Negative Vetting.

1Bingo

18th Feb 2009, 19:42

jobsworth!

SMT Member

18th Feb 2009, 23:40

Max Angle

... Most of us in the UK want to keep the government at arms length and preserve the concept that the state is subservient to the people ...

ROFLMAO x 2, nee times bloody 100!

Nowhere in Europe is your average citizen surrounded by more rules, regulations, surveillance, restrictions, mandatory this, compulsory that than in the UK. That statement has got to take the biscuit as the most misleading of the year 2009, which admittedly is still young.

But you guys hold on to your notion that the UK state is subservient to it's citizens, and if refusing to have an ID card makes you feel all fluffy and warm, more power to your elbow. Put, please, find a more solid argument than that one.

Max Angle

19th Feb 2009, 09:19

Which is precisely why I said that relationship is hugely strained in the UK at the moment. All the things you have mentioned have increased massivley in the UK in the last 10 years but it wasn't always like that and most of us see the ID card scheme as the last straw and a line in the sand that we don't want crossed. In the UK now I don't think the state is subservient to the people any more but at the moment we have not gone too far down the road that things can't be changed, getting Brown and Co. out of power would be a good first step, the State has become too large and too intrusive during the Labour parties time in power and we need a new government rapidly.

renrut

20th Feb 2009, 12:17

The response from GB. What a load of Bo**ocks

Government’s response
We are committed to working with the aviation industry to develop an identity card scheme for airside workers which helps maintain public confidence in the security of our airports and deliver greater convenience for employers in fulfilling their legal obligations. We have consulted extensively with the aviation sector to develop and refine our proposals, holding over 50 meetings with aviation stakeholders. We will continue to work closely with the industry going forward.

The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will begin to issue the first identity cards to airport staff working in the secure airside area from this year. However, these people will not be required to carry the cards with them – indeed, legislation specifically excludes any requirement to do so.

We acknowledge that the aviation industry is already taking action to ensure the integrity of the checks and systems that it has in place, in order to ensure the highest levels of security for airside personnel, as well as for the travelling public. Identity cards will give employers greater assurance of the identity of their employees, allowing them to discharge their legal responsibilities and reduce their exposure to threats. Over time, we want to work with employers to ensure that we can maximise the efficiency of the regulatory regime on them to keep the cost of conducting employee checks to a minimum.

No one can say that identity cards or any other single measure will prevent terrorism, but there can be no doubt that identity cards will help our ability to combat terrorism, and the police and security services support this view. The use of facial and fingerprint biometrics will link individuals securely to a single identity and so will help the police and the security services identify people more reliably. At the same time they will help in disrupting terrorist activity by making it more difficult for potential terrorists to use false or multiple identities. Furthermore, identity cards for foreign nationals will build on existing technology in place to protect the UK from illegal immigration including fingerprint visa checks abroad, which have already identified over 20,000 immigration offenders, and the introduction of electronic border checks.

Further Information

spannersatKL

20th Feb 2009, 12:20

You beat me to it.....Gordon's BS answer!!! Gawd elp us though glad to see the Leadership positioning to remove the chap with one eye...

Number10.gov.uk Airsideid - epetition response (http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page18324)

Flintstone

20th Feb 2009, 13:05

I just received the same email. My favourite part:The Identity and Passport Service (IPS) will begin to issue the first identity cards to airport staff working in the secure airside area from this year. However, these people will not be required to carry the cards with them – indeed, legislation specifically excludes any requirement to do so. (My bold).

So it's either :ugh: or :hmm:....so, when do you plan to make it law that they do have to be carried.

fireflybob

20th Feb 2009, 14:17

It's precisely this sort of drivel that is making people feel disenfranchised from our political masters! It's just a load of waffle which bears little resemblance to what is going on and how those of us "in the frontline" feel about what is going on! Why can't they talk plain english - who or what are "aviation stakeholders"?

Sounds like the script from a rerun of "Yes Minister"

Xorthis

20th Feb 2009, 14:38

So as I understand it, staff will be issued with one and under legislation they could just bin it and never look back as they are not required to carry it. So what's the point?

Roll on the stories about airside workers being sacked because it's "company policy" to carry their I.D. cards and they refused to do so.

Sepp

20th Feb 2009, 14:52

@ fireflybob:

Aviation stakeholders are people or organisations who are invited to comment on any given subject so that their opinions can be ignored, whilst allowing whowever is making the decisions to pretend that they actually give a hoot about what anyone else thinks.

Frankly I'm surprised they allow us to have stakes - far too dangerous things for untrustworthy folks such as us to be allowed to play with.

llondel

20th Feb 2009, 15:59

Sounds like the script from a rerun of "Yes Minister"

Not at all, at least Jim Hacker&Co had a coherent storyline for each episode.

helimutt

20th Feb 2009, 17:58

So the online petition went really well then. Now they want us to have security ID cards but we don't have to carry them? Eh? FMOB!! This government really are clueless!

Number10.gov.uk Airsideid - epetition response (http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page18324)

BarbiesBoyfriend

20th Feb 2009, 18:06

'Don't have to carry them'..............................yet.:hmm:

Maxbert

20th Feb 2009, 19:35

I'm going to stick my head out from the JetBlast burrow where I usually dwell, as, having read through the whole thread, there is more than just Pilot input here-

I live in Luxembourg, and have done since 1973 (I was 5...). I hold a British passport, born in London of a British father and Italian mother. Up until a few years ago, I could renew my passport at the British Embassy in Luxembourg, and did so many times. Things changed, and now the Embassy in Paris handles passports for Benelux countries, Switzerland, France and the French DOM-TOMs. Why? God only knows, presumably it is for someone's "convenience", although not mine... Anyhow, the whole process has become considerably more expensive, time-consuming and inconvenient.

But here's the thing- Maybe not this year (when my passport is due for renewal), but certainly from 2012 according to the Act of Parliament and assorted information I have read, my details will also be included in the NIS, or whatever the database is called.

WHY?

I don't live in England, have no connections with the UK now other than by birth, but if I want to renew my documents this becomes mandatory.

So- I am applying for Luxembourgish nationality, and will renounce the British, if only for peace of mind. That being said, it is important to point out that Luxembourg has far, FAR more info about me on file than the UK does, including tax information, details about my children, medical info, etc...

Strangely, this bothers me far less than the idea of the UK having info on me- I suppose it's cultural (had a Luxembourg ID card since I was fifteen, IIRC), and it's part of the way of life on the Continent. Also, to date, nobody has come knocking on my door in the wee hours- Why should they?

ID cards bring undoubted benefits for all the "legitimate" identification purposes mentioned in posts above.

So- I am not anti ID card, nor, really, anti centralised DB, just as long as none of our governments turn all Terry Gilliam on us, which they could at any time, whether Luxembourg or England.

Two other brief points:

At some point, even given data-mining tools and whatnot, there will be just so much information that there will not be enough people or time to analyse it all- We will be just as anonymous within an ocean of information as within a desert of information.

Finally, RFID does not necessarily have to be your enemy- Luxembourg public transport recently introduced the "E-Go" card (clever, eh?) to replace paper tickets / cards. At first I thought "Uh-oh, all my movements will now be tracked"- Well no- No personal data has to be given, you saunter up and request a monthly ticket, pay for it (cash is fine), they take a plastic card, zap it, and you're on your way, once you have validated it at a base station to activate it. Thereafter you swipe it nowhere, it contains only data about its validity. This is a huge step backwards, as at least the old paper versions had a date stamp on them so you could tell when to renew them!

Maxbert's 2 €cent's worth...

airsound

20th Feb 2009, 21:45

Interesting article in the (London) Independent, Friday, by Brian Eno

Nobody bothers about civil liberties until they've gone. As the old country song warns: "You don't miss your water till your well runs dry."

We are letting the well run dry, allowing little bits of our civil freedoms to be chipped away by paranoiac governments who assure us we can trust them – and consistently betray that trust.

We are gradually sacrificing what has taken hundreds of years of civilisation to achieve, which is a condition of some kind of liberty. It may not be evident to everyone yet, but we have lost so much freedom in the past 10 years. When the Government passed its "anti-terror" laws, it reassured those who campaigned against them that they would only ever be used in the most extreme circumstances.

But these are completely vague laws which enable a government to arrest almost anybody for almost everything.

Within a couple of years they had been used to eject an 80-year-old heckler from a Labour Party conference, to arrest a woman for reading out the names of British soldiers killed in Iraq, and to freeze the assets of Icelandic banks in England. This is the problem with vague legislation of this type: it invariably gets called into use whenever anybody does anything that the Government finds embarrassing or the police find inconvenient.

It criminalises the behaviour of concerned citizens and thereby encourages disengagement and apathy. By preventing people from taking part in critiques of governance it increases the gap between rulers and ruled: it is fundamentally anti-democratic.

I worry about initiatives like identity cards and computer databases because they could be a step towards a police state, with completely innocent people being held in custody because of software malfunctions.

It is incredibly sad that these moves towards a police state should have happened under a Labour government. Gordon Brown should think about the serious problems that need to be solved – such as climate change – and direct his government's efforts towards that.

Sorry if it's slight thread drift - but maybe it's not drifting too far.

airsound

A and C

20th Feb 2009, 22:45

With the financial problems the goverment is having I see they are trying hard to hide the back tracking on the targets to reduce child poverty.

Perhaps a wise goverment would scrap thet identity card idea and use the money for something that would benifit the most disadvantaged people in the UK rather than trying to control us all with these unwanted cards.

mbriscoe

21st Feb 2009, 16:57

By passing an RFID chip over a card reader you are also passing it over a small induction loop that temporarily gives the small charge required for the transmission of the information. There are no batteries involved so there is no capability for continuous or intermittent transmission as speculated.

Didn't someone do a demonstration in the USA recently where they drove around managed to interrogate a significant number of RFIDs in US passports(?).
Passport RFIDs cloned wholesale by $250 eBay auction spree (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/02/low_cost_rfid_cloner/)

I think what worried people in the UK is that the government (and particularly the present one) have a terrible record with any sort of computer / IT project with them going way overbudget, being late and insecure.

They initially talked about a completely voluntary ID card system at low cost then started to introduce by stealth in different areas, the cost has increased with talk of £1000 fine for not notifying of any changes - a new card has to be issued after a marriage name change and paid for. It is obvious that we will be eventually required to carry them all the time eventually if the government gets its way.

There has been a lot of spin about them so it is hard to get the complete true story - I get the impression that most non-police users will possibly not be accessing the full details on the card so it is just another piece of plastic with name and photograph. Even the average police office on patrol might not be able to access it.

We have the Home Secretary going around saying that there is overwhelming public support for them but every independent survey has shown the complete opposite and most opposed to them.

mbriscoe

21st Feb 2009, 16:59

So as I understand it, staff will be issued with one and under legislation they could just bin it and never look back as they are not required to carry it. So what's the point?Once you have a UK ID card there is a £1000 fine for its loss according to press reports.

llondel

21st Feb 2009, 18:27

Once you have a UK ID card there is a £1000 fine for its loss according to press reports.

All the more reason to keep it in a very safe place at home and never carry it with you.

Although, if you don't have to show it to anyone, how do they know you've lost it?

SR71

21st Feb 2009, 18:37

Big databases scare me. Those who administer them scare me even more.

I thought distributed systems were better?

I've always wondered why our industry is being targeted?

Surely a packed football stadium represents a far larger captive audience if you had inclinations in the direction of "terror".

I believe football fans are in favour of ID cards.

Try them first would you...

:mad:

four_two

21st Feb 2009, 18:55

It's not just the ID card that's the problem, it's the database(s) that sit behind them.

A large DNA database
Councils who spy on citizens
National Health Service database
Records of phone calls, mobile phone texts,emails etc.
I've already had my service records stolen/ lost and possibly my DWP one too by government agencies, when they are all linked it will be a really valuable resource for someone. Legal or illegal.

I've actually still got my ID card from WW2, I can remember my mother saying to me"you can throw that away, you won't need it anymore"!

hellsbrink

21st Feb 2009, 18:55

Excellent idea, SR71, and I think Cardiff and Millwall should be the ones who get the trials first!! :}

EGLD

21st Feb 2009, 19:22

While the arguments, IMO, about a central database and its security are relevant, I believe they are missing the real argument

That this undermines basic principles that should provide the foundation of our society, the right to privacy and freedom from state monitoring and interference should be held above all else, even if we have to accept (as we always have) crimes committed by those abusing those freedoms, less we become a prison island before we know what's happening

As Mark Thomas continually and tireless repeats; in a free democracy we should not be controlled and answerable to the state, the power lies with the people and the state is put in place and answerable to us

Whilst I wouldn't consider myself an out and out Tory, I'm already looking forward to the evening in front of the telly in May 2010 when I can watch scum like Jackboot Smith ousted by their constituents

Well done BALPA

Someone with nothing to hide but lot's to fear

call100

21st Feb 2009, 23:00

It's nice to see people actually articulating the real reasons why we should be against the proposed NID.......
Calls for a General Election must be started at every level......It is either that or sooner or later there will be blood on the streets again...

Sciolistes

22nd Feb 2009, 00:29

'Don't have to carry them'..............................yet.
Of course, it is creeping legislation. Tell them they don't need to carry them and they acquiesce. Then change the law. Standard management technique is to ask for something outrageous, then back off and get the subject to accept something less outrageous but more than they would have done in the first place.

Maxbert,
Luxembourg has far, FAR more info about me on file than the UK does, including tax information, details about my children, medical info, etc...
Indeed, but that information is generally static in nature. Governments have always known the political affiliations, family history, etc of its people. Even before the fountain pen was invented. The difference here is that the information can and ultimately will be correlated to real-time activities. This is dangerous, because it means that people who are currently tolerated(in the loosest sense of the word) can be retrospectively deemed undesirable by the the State. It isn't about that fact that you do no wrong and have done no wrong, it is about the definition of 'wrong' in the future.

At some point, even given data-mining tools and whatnot, there will be just so much information that there will not be enough people or time to analyse it all- We will be just as anonymous within an ocean of information as within a desert of information.
Yes and no. We can imagine that the requirements for such a system were sold and built on a naive notion of the types of queries that will be posed. But as always the intended use of the system will change once it is online as said experience increases and further changes are applied. Basically, it may be crap for its intended naive purpose initially but the strategy and function will change over time in unpredictable ways.

Also, clearly with such vast and obviously complex relationships between the data, expect significant errors in the entry and capture of the data and queries to drag up and warrant investigation into bemused and confused ordinary members of the public.

Checkboard

22nd Feb 2009, 08:30

nilcostoptionmyass

22nd Feb 2009, 08:59

Our glourious home secretary is currently squirming on national tv bbc1,being questioned by marr about her expenses.This government are not to be trusted in any way, the dvla sell our info to companies etc etc,our info is left on trains, bars etc.

Balpa, you have my complete support.

in order to stop this we need to have our companies on board, and stand together.

BigGrumpyAlien

22nd Feb 2009, 09:39

Here's an idea then......

One card, and it becomes your National Insurance No, your NHS No, your Driving Licence, your Tax No, your police record No.....could even be your employee No....

no need now to have plastic company airside logo cards....

no need to have CRC checks every time you change employer(oops that might make some people redundant)

Think of all that plastic, effort time and money savings that could be employed by such a system.....think of the planet......or even think of the tax cuts we could have by scrapping so much.....

Now there's a thought....

call100

22nd Feb 2009, 10:31

It's pretty obvious that by "not required to be carried" the government mean that you will not be required to produce the card for a random stop, however, producing the card will be required to pass a security point. :hmm:

If you know that you will be passing a security point in your day's work, you will have to carry the card. :*
This is in no way true. The legislation actually states (as it stands) that no one can demand to see your NID. In the aviation world it's only use would be (as it stands) to enable you to have a CRB check using the NID as proof of identity. You will have no further use for it. You will be able to stuff it where the sun don't shine. The only ID you will need to enter the airport will be current Identity cards.
What the future holds is a dark and dangerous place. However, at the moment all the Government want is that people sleepwalk into accepting them as they have done in accepting all the anti civil liberty legislation passed.
They have targeted areas that the 'General Population' would not have any complaints about. On the surface they would see Immigrants and Airport workers given the ID. Without knowing the situation, they would not see anything wrong with Governments Security spin.
Once everyone in major airports had them, that would be a large chunk of people in every major city already carrying them when the Powers that be decide they are compulsory for everyone.

EGLD........Good post. Although I have not decided on where to vote yet, don't dismiss the Lib-Dems who are very anti NID.....
Good site......Home Office Watch (http://www.homeofficewatch.com/)

Sciolistes...Excellent post.

FairWeatherFlyer

22nd Feb 2009, 21:58

Big databases scare me. Those who administer them scare me even more.

I thought distributed systems were better?

It depends what distributed means - the term is often misused by those who should know better. A modern set of databases (no paper, no microfiche!) that happen to be distributed geographically but with administrative links, good comms and common keys is little different to a traditional 'centralised' database (for data mining).

As you point out, administration is the key issue. Security, integrity, access control, audits, legal (data protection) rights, retention periods is what it's all about. The commercial world is starting to wake up on these issues, i have no idea what the governement's doing. The only guarantees are that government projects will go over budget and they won't insure for data losses.

rigpiggy

23rd Feb 2009, 02:54

Kind of like our National do not call database, with 5000$ fines, that were sold to telemarketers worldwide. Now you get bothered from all over.

doubleu-anker

23rd Feb 2009, 04:16

Yes this ID card business is very sinister indeed and the thin end of the wedge.

They have chosen the pilot workforce as they know very well that pilots as a force will never stick together, on anything. I think the government's timing on this one is incredible.

Come on guys and gals, prove me wrong. Make a stand for what is right for once.

golftangofox

23rd Feb 2009, 12:26

We all need to resist this or we can start to kiss our freedoms goodbye.

The reason why we have to stand up now is because it is my belief that in a short amount of time the apparatus of democracy will not be there for us to change our circumstances or protect any freedom that we may have left.

As has been mentioned by others the most concerning issue is not the card but the databases behind it and the RFID tracking chips.

Please bear in mind that they have designed an RFID chip for humans called the VeriChip, it is designed to go under the skin. It has already been implanted in humans. My personal belief is that the ultimate goal is to get everyone in the world chipped with the VeriChip tracking module, the RFID chip in the card is just an intermediary step. Everyone will be locked into a monitered control grid, every action you perform will be documented, a centralised one world system - all rights removed. Chipped at birth and tracked from cradle to grave.

If anyone is genuinely interested I have produced a document on this subject to help raise awareness amongst all aviation workers, not just pilots. It contains information that is to the best of my knowledge correct. It does not contain my beliefs like the one above but does touch on the privacy and civil rights issues. If you pm me your email address then I can send you a pdf copy of the document.

Good luck to all who oppose this.

doubleu-anker

23rd Feb 2009, 13:03

You're dead right there mate. Know as the wishes of the New World/One world order/Bilderbergers.

We're being led like lambs to the slaughter.

fireflybob

23rd Feb 2009, 15:20

Letter in today's Daily Telegraph which just about sums it all up. How far are we off the excuse "We were just following orders" which was used previously in history as an excuse for certain atrocities?

The compliance disease

SIR – Recent letters from airline pilots complaining about being subject to the same security as passengers, lest they violently seize control of their own aircraft, are a symptom of a wider problem.

The Government insists on micro-managing every aspect of our lives and imposes strict regulations that remove any discretion to apply common sense by minor officials. This has further and more harmful effects

GPs used to be responsible for treating their patients according to their medical judgment, but now they are instead required to run specialist clinics and schemes with targeted take-up rates. Many patients are alienated by the pressure the GP applies to ensure compliance with the targets.

The police are subject to similar constraints. Every fatal motor accident, for example, has to be investigated as a “potential crime scene”, even though an experienced officer can tell a suspicious “accident” from more straightforward ones at a glance. The investigation will close the road for hours, at vast cost, when the police need public support to investigate a real crime.

Accountants used to have to prepare statutory accounts that gave a “true and fair” view of the state of a company’s affairs. Now they need only ensure the rules have been followed to the letter.

We have two choices: to employ only infallible, omniscient and omnipotent regulators, or to give those enforcing the rules more discretion.

If there is a being who meets the criteria for the first, I fear he is unlikely to apply for the job, having better things to do. The latter is also a problem as our schools seem unwilling to promote initiative and common sense in pupils.

Mark Edwards
Witney, Oxfordshire

Old Fella

24th Feb 2009, 02:04

FerrypilotDK

24th Feb 2009, 02:30

Lie! In some countries in Europe people have ID cards, but in others not.

You know only your own situation, do not assume it is everywhere. Besides, it was this continental-inspired demand that just sits in the back of my mind, when some ass in a uniform can demand, at his pleasure, that I "identify myself," for no reason, at any time...anywhere. Brings to mind Gestapo agents demanding "papers!"

Stuff it!

silverstreak

24th Feb 2009, 03:31

On one hand, it is true that 'if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about'... BUT on the other, dont fancy telling a complete stranger (who isnt as ID'd as me) anything about me.

Beginning to look like a rap star although ID badges have replaced the gold and diamond chains...

cribble

24th Feb 2009, 05:02

Please get bloody angry about this. Agitate.
My country does not yet have these cards but often follows "best" practice.

No. Bloody no.:mad:

call100

24th Feb 2009, 09:45

Would someone like to explain just what is "demeaning" about an identity card. It is not a tattoo on one's forehead. For the whole of my working life, and now as a retiree who still flies, I have had various ID cards, none of which I found demeaning. Lighten up and accept that the ID card might just be useful. Even if it seems to not serve any purpose to an individual, what harm can it cause?
Please read the whole thread. Perhaps you will glean some understanding of the various objections.
I have an ID card for work. I had an ID card in the Armed Forces. I will not have a National ID card with the attached Database issued to me.
You make the sort uniformed comments that typify the sleepwalk into the erosion of civil liberty in the UK.

If you want one then fine have one but don't make the mistake of thinking it's just an ID card....Then again you are speaking from the safe haven of Australia............Wake up! They could still impose it on you lot.

Overdrive

26th Feb 2009, 22:34

If anyone is genuinely interested I have produced a document on this subject to help raise awareness amongst all aviation workers, not just pilots. It contains information that is to the best of my knowledge correct.

If you pm me your email address then I can send you a pdf copy of the document.

I will if you promise my email address will not be stored in a database :E

golftangofox

27th Feb 2009, 16:40

Overdrive

I will if you promise my email address will not be stored in a database http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif 24th February 2009 10:45

I was waiting for that!

Seriously though, if you are interested I can send you a copy with a faithful promise that I am not collating a database.

I am not a politician so I can assure you with some conviction that my word is good. :ok:

Dysag

27th Feb 2009, 20:24

In England a man stopped for cycling naked down the street will be asked why he's into indecent exposure.

On the Continent he'd be asked where are his "papers".

rayand

28th Feb 2009, 17:24

There is a lot of information on this here: stop the database state » NO2ID (http://www.no2id.net/)

Us pilots are being targetted because (a) we are unlikely to agree on any sort of collective action, so we can be picked off as our ID's expire. and (b) we are conditioned to follow authority - especially when it comes to keeping our job.

I'm not based at Manchester - so I will have to see what those people do!

funfly

1st Mar 2009, 08:52

However.......we are all happy to let the commercial world know our personal profile e.g. Tesco card!
Every time you use Google a record of your activity (and obviously your current interest) is retained.
But with these we have a choice and they promise us some reward for this information.
And they don't seem to leave the data on railway trains.

radar707

2nd Mar 2009, 18:15

ID Card Database breached:

Memo reveals multiple breaches of ID card database - ZDNet.co.uk (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/security/0,1000000189,39618460,00.htm)

Anyone that thinks these ID cards are a good idea needs their head examined

jshg

3rd Mar 2009, 08:35

The appalling Harriet Harperson has just demonstrated the dangers of letting a government like this one have an ID database.
Whilst 'Fred the shred' is rightly Public Enemy Number One, a pension paid for life is exactly that. Rather than pursuing the fools who awarded him the pension, or even the (Labour) drone who allowed him to retire early and draw this obscene sum, she announces that the government will simply not allow it, or will change the law retrospectively to undo the agreement. This flies in the face of natural justice (as well as her beloved human rights).
Once the ID database is in place then it too will be subject to political interference, and what was supposed to be an anti-terrorism measure will be used to enforce Harriet's mad political agenda. (Remember, the Child Support Agency has been given the right to cancel driving licences !)
So if you've overfilled your dustbin you may find your airport ID withdrawn.
- Unless, of course, Labour lose the next election ....

johnriketes

3rd Mar 2009, 09:46

You naysayers have it all wrong. I am in government and a serving politican. Trust me on this when I say you pilots have nothing to worry about whatsoever. I trust you with my life when I am flying on your aeroplanes so you must trust us, with your freedom.

As regards to the widespread loss of databases in pubs etc., well that's absolute tosh. There maybe the odd database go missing but we are still looking for them and we haven't given up hope of finding them intact. Harrett and I are onto this don't you worry.

Trust me on this one you hear!

hellsbrink

3rd Mar 2009, 10:04

I see, so everyone using the system is so trustworthy nobody will access the information without authorisation, as has been reported happening repeatedly with just ONE of the latest databases?

Give people a reason to trust you lot, and maybe they will. Telling th TRUTH might be a start.

jshg

3rd Mar 2009, 12:17

I think I can unmask you, Johnriketes - you are my local MP ! You rent my garden shed, claiming it as your main residence, and despite what you say you don't trust any pilot to carry contact lens fluid ....

Ancient Observer

3rd Mar 2009, 15:45

When I started browsing this thread, I was generally in favour of ID cards. When I lived in Belgium I carried one all the time, as did she who must be obeyed, and the children. Thus I start from the "so-what" camp. In my working times, I've been vetted, referenced, and even had plain clothed folk ask the neighbours questions about me and the family. I guess that was something to do with vetting. I know that the powers that be have looked at my financials - the security bloke in one of my employers told me.
Anyway, I am moving firmly out of the "don't care" camp having read this lot. The thought that any of those lying, two-faced politicians, (Harperson, for instance, who wants to break the law over Fred the Shred) having all this access inb to me and mine - or yours, for that matter, is truly scary.

Philflies

3rd Mar 2009, 16:13

Sorry johnriketes you've bought the cynic out in me!

....I am in government and a serving politican. Trust me.....

(basically.....Trust me, I'm a politician) I just can't do it anymore :=

I trust you with my life when I am flying on your aeroplanes so you must trust us, with your freedom.

The difference is Pilot's are trained and very well qualified to do their jobs. What training and (relevant) qualifications do most Politicians have to oversea the departments they're put in charge of? Usually none.

Alas, I've lost faith in the (UK) government to run large/complex projects and their ability to handle sensitive data.

It's a no vote from me.

Phil

Flintstone

3rd Mar 2009, 16:30

John Riketes post >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Certain posters heads >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

:rolleyes:

Paradise Lost

3rd Mar 2009, 18:01

This whole thread has run on for 160+ posts over 2 weeks and it is still on subject....seems like the vast majority are overwhelmingly anti ID cards for good reason. If johnriketes is a serving politician, then I am a serving cabinet minister: but I think it's too late to leave the UK to democracy now, so I fancy dictatorship in order to repeal all the acts that have been passed, that so compromise our Yuman Rights.
The erosion of choice, and the requirement to monitor and direct every aspect of our lives, is truly frightening; the ID card is another weapon in the relentless effort to control the peasants and it WILL happen unless WE make a concerted to reject this gross and intrusive new tool in the government's armoury.

b737800capt06

5th Mar 2009, 06:37

I have seen a fair bit of abuse towards security staff at airports on this board, when it is the Government who is responsible.

I agree that the Government should serve the people, and not have police demanding to see I.D cards of citizens, as this is a police state. However the police can demand to know who you are.

However at an airport as long as there is sufficient I.D to get airside then there should be no issue.

Ultimately any I.D system that is making sure that it is the flight crew who are boarding the flight and not unauthorized people is required in a form which works and is secure.

llondel

5th Mar 2009, 08:14

(OK, I detect a troll post. However...)

You naysayers have it all wrong. I am in government and a serving politican. Trust me on this when I say you pilots have nothing to worry about whatsoever. I trust you with my life when I am flying on your aeroplanes so you must trust us, with your freedom.

The main difference is that a pilot also has his own interests at stake, given that he's likely to arrive at the scene of a crash before I do. A politician in power is like having the pilot on the ground flying the aircraft remotely.

You can see how much politicians trust their own databases by the fact that they're all having their children given protected status to restrict access on the ContactPoint database of children.

call100

5th Mar 2009, 08:44

For those who are wanting to do something other than complain and wait for others to do it for you. There are people in rapidly growing movement fighting all this...
The Convention on Modern Liberty (http://www.modernliberty.net/)

Bally Heck

9th Mar 2009, 01:30

Don't worry Johnny Rickets. At least one person on this site understands irony.

BottyTotty

9th Mar 2009, 02:26

Yes we do have a lot to worry about. Erosions of freedoms. If you have a problem as a politician with certain issues or sections of society. Then go after those elements. Increase funding, do whatever it is you do in the westminster village to target the right areas. But applying a blanket rule against professional aviators, does NOTHING to alleviate any of the contrived excuses that have been used to try and justify these ID cards.

I am not in the business of "trusting" because I am told to, we Pilots analyse facts and data.

Give me one good reason without any PC claptrap, why a British born and bred professional aviator with a full UK ATPL and a British passport, who does not claim benefits and is not an illegal immigrant, must carry an ID card. I am not interested in the "well we have to do it to everyone" argument. We don't all get fired for 1 persons mistake, we don't all go to jail for 1 mans crime.

I hope BALPA put together a Pilots class action against the government and the DFT on the basis of human rights.

We should not be railroaded into this punative scheme, it started off, post 9-11 as "the key to combating terrorism", then when established that it would make no difference as terrorists wouldn't have one anyway, so the argument shifted to benefit fraud, and then illegal immigrants. It is just politcal opportunism to grab more control.

It is government trying to shift paradigms, It is all about them having more control over everyone and everything.

There is simply no threat from Professional ATPL carrying Aviators, who have had criminal records and reference checks already.

I heard a radio debate about plans afoot to have installed in all cars a black box type device, sold to the general public by the politicians on the radio show, as a "road useage monitoring device" to replace car tax so people only pay for what they use. It would follow all cars all the time by GPS. Hmmmmmm how about a spying device so you know everyones every move (doubling petrol duty could do the same thing).

People are becoming so used to being bullied around and I think enough is enough. I don't know any of my colleagues who are benefit claimants, they certainly are not illegal aliens, and I don't think you will find many Airline Pilots in these shores, sitting at home and hatching plans to blow themselves up. They do after all fly the aircraft.

But thats what the PC brigade are whacking us with, to make us conform to their hidden agendas. :yuk:

Xeque

9th Mar 2009, 03:10

From todays Daily Telegraph.
Britain 'nation of form fillers watched by quarter of world's CCTV cameras' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4958034/Britain-nation-of-form-fillers-watched-by-quarter-of-worlds-CCTV-cameras.html)

doubleu-anker

9th Mar 2009, 07:08

BottyTotty

Excellent post indeed.

9/11 Hmmm....... Some groups in Governments I bet have been "wishing" for such an event to take place, to use as an excuse, to tighten the strangle hold on the individual as it is a wonderful umbrella to hide under. Of course I would never, ever, suggest such a horrendous event was encouraged in any way what so ever, by the "establishments". That would be unthinkable, would it not?

BottyTotty

9th Mar 2009, 10:03

doubleu-anker (http://www.pprune.org/members/52057-doubleu-anker) Were they caught totally unawares?, were they actively involved for hidden reasons?, or had they intel but turned a blind eye?. That is a different and maybe pointless debate, who knows?

Besides, all the reasons, previously started why trying to force an Airline pilot to have an ID card has no valid argument or basis other than control.

The goverment in the UK has a history of losing sensitve data.

In the past fews years there have been a few seperate occasions were highly sensitive data about individuals has been lost, left on trains on laptops, stolen etc.

I am convinced there is a lot more risk and danger to me and fellow pilots in these incompetent people holding every conceivable biometric and personal fact about you.

We are much less of a threat to them, than the goverment are to us.

fireflybob

9th Mar 2009, 11:13

Slightly off thread but have been watching the TV this morning on about parking offences/tickets etc.

I was amazed to learn that DVLA can pass your details to other agencies and charge £2.50 for this service. This is, for example, if you park on private land and the owner wishes to take action against you doing so. Apparently when you sign the vehicle logbook when you renew your car tax you are agreeing that DVLA can pass your details on. The interviewer asked the head of DVLA if car owner's were able to withold this permission and the answer was that in law they could not do so.

Whilst I would agree that one shouldn't park illegally or on private land without permission I was somewhat surprised that DVLA can pass these details on and I wonder what checks they do to ensure that agencies asking for details are bona fide.

golftangofox

9th Mar 2009, 11:59

I have decided to refuse to go onto the National Identity Register whilst it is not compulsory to do so, which is my democratic right.

However, the governments draft legislation will persecute and obstruct me as an aviation worker. It is not a proper function of government to create an ID card as a form of official permission to earn a living for law-abiding workers such as myself. The draft legislation clearly shows that if I refuse then later this year will see the start of the process of my being denied the right to work.

I consider the government ID card proposals for myself as an aviation worker to be an attack on my individual rights and freedoms, which will lead to an unfair denial to work if I refuse to be coerced onto the National Identity Database. In my opinion this is in conflict with liberal democratic values.

Whilst we stand helplessly and watch the erosion of our individual wealth we can draw some comfort from the fact that we can still influence and fight for our civil rights, freedom and privacy. We all have an individual responsibility to do so and each individual can make a difference. Remember civil rights are the citizen’s protection from the government itself, once they are lost we may never get them back.

Please PM me if you would like a pdf copy of “The National ID Card For Airside Workers – Should we be concerned and if so why?"

Good luck to all who oppose this repressive legislation.

tr0tsky

10th Mar 2009, 14:14

I'm thoroughly against the National ID Card, heavens knows I spend enough of my time writing and blogging against it, but your post, BottyTotty is extremely...strange to say the least.

Give me one good reason without any PC claptrap, why a British born and bred professional aviator with a full UK ATPL and a British passport, who does not claim benefits and is not an illegal immigrant, must carry an ID card.

Where does "PC" come into this? What does it matter if you're "British born and bred"? What does it matter if you claim benefits or are an immigrant, illegal or otherwise?

First of all, the arguments that the Government are using to justify ID cards are NOT “PC”, I’d say that they stood in stark contrast to the thoughts and feelings of those on the political Left/Liberals/the concept of “political correctness” people who band about the term bleat on about. The idea that migrant workers and international students should be forced to carry biometric cards to access essential services is disgusting and far, far from “PC”.

Migrant workers shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Young people shouldn’t be forced to carry one. Your great-aunt Ethel shouldn’t be forced to carry one.

What the piloting community needs to realize is that the Government is picking-off what it considers to be the easy targets. We need to approach the issue without the slightest whiff of Jingoism if we are to stop the ID card. This is because we need to campaign FROM THE START against their phased introduction. This means making links with organizations that represent migrant workers and international students.

I can’t remember off the top of my head how the poem goes, so I’ll do my best to reproduce it here:

First they came for the “illegal immigrants”, and I did not speak up for I was not an “illegal immigrant”,

Then they came for the International students, and I did not speak up for I was not an International student,

Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me.

A2QFI

10th Mar 2009, 14:23

Old Fella. I don't imagine that any of the ID cards you have held in the past have had enormous quanitities of your personal information (Home and work addresses, Iris scan, Finger prints, criminal record, medical details etc) held in some hacker friendly, loosely controlled, information may be leaked or lost database, badly organised by a Central Government?

Ancient Observer

10th Mar 2009, 15:00

That's a very good point. In the past all that security stuff was probably buried in a file somewhere. Now it'll be readable on the back of the id card. I'm slowly becoming more anti.

RevMan2

10th Mar 2009, 15:11

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

jshg

10th Mar 2009, 20:09

As a sample of what our esteemed government has in store for us, I understand that it will be a criminal offence NOT to inform G. Brown & friends when you change address.
So if you rent and move, or are sleeping on friends' sofas whilst you find somewhere, or have just split up and don't know or care where you live as long as it's not with her/him ...... you could be committing a criminal offence which could lead to the loss of pilot employment (amongst other things).
On the other hand, a woman has just been on our local TV. She is close to bankruptcy because her fisherman husband is long missing, presumed drowned, but his creditors will not speak to her because she is not the account holder - data protection, of course - and the final demands keeping coming, unopened by her dead husband. This is the idiotic mentality which will permeate every corner of our lives, professional and private, with Gordon's ID cards.
- And remember: all this is being done in the name of improved security, to protect the world against our innate terrorist instincts as pilots.

Spartacan

10th Mar 2009, 20:26

>>it will be a criminal offence NOT to inform G. Brown & friends when you change address.<<

Have a look at:

Take Jane » NO2ID (http://www.no2id.net/TakeJane/)

You need to be able to move in privacy!

jshg

11th Mar 2009, 11:25

But if you do need to take an 'informal' look at the ID database - just ask a policeman. According to today's papers, over 1000 UK policemen have criminal convictions.

Bruce Wayne

12th Mar 2009, 07:55

Today's news:

Offender IT failure 'avoidable' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7937269.stm)

Plans for a multi-million pound central database on offenders failed because of poor management and a lack of budget control, the spending watchdog says.

The National Audit Office said the abandoned IT project's rising costs and delays could have been avoided if basic management rules had been followed.

A real point to the UK ID Card scheme is that the government has planned a budget [sic] for the ID card scheme to cost 0.5 billion pounds a year for the next ten years.

yes folks, that's half a billion of *your* tax pounds every year on a scheme that under it's own terms is unworkable.

previous points made over the ID card scheme remain.

From a previous post of mine regarding the ID card scheme:

The European court of human rights found in favour of the plaintiff's in S. and Marper v. the United Kingdom (http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&documentId=843937&portal=hbkm&source=externalbydocnumber&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649) a breach of human rights in their DNA being retained without conviction.

While it is implied that no-one will be forced to hold an ID card, it is implicit that to gain airside access in order to undertake one's employment will require the issuance of an ID card.

Ergo, while you are not forced to have an ID card, you have to make the choice of an ID card or your job.

While the EUCHR has found a breach of human rights in the holding of biometric data without criminal conviction, the implication here is that the UK government is doubly countermanding your human rights by way of you having to accept your human rights being violated to retain your job.

A point here i would like to consider is that there is a requirement for a criminal conviction certificate to be provided in order to be issued with an airside pass. There is no specific requirement noted as to when the certificate is issued. That is to say, if i am already in possession of a CRB check certificate then that should be sufficient for the issuance of an airside pass.

You can go to any police station, pay the 5 pounds, or whatever it is right now, and have a CRB check done and be issued with a certificate confirming no arrests/conviction. This would then be acceptable for the issuance of an airside pass WITHOUT the ID card.

*post in full is here* (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/341720-balpa-against-id-cards-tuc-congress-12.html#post4593815)

Bad Robot

13th Mar 2009, 14:40

What about those Pilots with dual nationality, say for example, British/Australian, British/Canadian or British/Irish?
If they hold dual nationality could they refuse on the grounds of the non - UK passport?
Or just resubmit their details with their other nationality thereby still being allowed a CRC certificate and Airside Pass issued?

BR.

Wig Wag

14th Mar 2009, 14:07

And the Nausea continues:

All travel plans to be tracked by Government - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4987415/All-travel-plans-to-be-tracked-by-Government.html)

Anyone departing the UK by land, sea or air will have their trip recorded and stored on a database for a decade.

In most cases the information will be expected to be provided 24 hours ahead of travel and will then be stored on a Government database for around ten years.

The owners of light aircraft will also be brought under the system, known as e-borders, which will eventually track 250 million journeys annually.

"Travellers will need to ensure that their passports are up to date and that details are input accurately if they don't want to end up in a dark room being grilled by border officials."

This is just another form of coercion to have an ID Card.

jshg

14th Mar 2009, 21:37

Bad Robot, that's one of the (many) flaws in the ID plan. Non UK citizens cannot be required to carry a UK ID, so a large minority of UK airline workers will never have one anyway. Dual passport holders will (and should) easily avoid the requirement.
My airline has a large proportion of Dutch and Belgians, none of whom will be required to have Gordon's ID. So why bother at all ?
Now, if that LTN baggage handler can just get his Afghan passport issued he'll never need a UK ID, and can carry on loading things onto UK aircraft ...

hellsbrink

15th Mar 2009, 05:00

Aaaah, but jshg, can't you see the cunning plan to have a pan-european electronic ID database whereby some no-nark in Greece can see when you last went to the clap clinic and refuse you entry to the country as you may still have a dose?

Not sure if I should even suggest things like that in jest, they've probably decided on it already

windytoo

15th Mar 2009, 13:48

The Greeks will also know who the plane spotters are. It makes it easier to arrest them.

The SSK

16th Mar 2009, 16:56

European Cockpit Association press release from Friday:

European Cockpit Association (ECA) Website - Aviation Security: A Fortress with Open Doors (http://www.eurocockpit.be/content/view/695/1/)

European Pilots in favour of ID cards.

tr0tsky

16th Mar 2009, 20:50

You'll find that the problem isn't "ID cards" as a concept but the UK biometric National ID Card Scheme.

A European biometric ID card, for the sole purpose of entry into RZ's across the EU is the way forward.

jshg

17th Mar 2009, 09:33

The ECA's position makes some sense - but it's mainly talking about aircrew ID cards. Yes it would be an obvious improvement if there were a standardised, Europe-wide ID card.
Here in the UK it would make a vast army of security operatives instantly redundant. Large numbers of self-important jobsworths would thankfully become irrelevant.
Instead, our beloved government is pushing its half-baked national ID card scheme. (Contrary to the ECA's article, we would not be required to carry them with us.)

Spartacan

18th Mar 2009, 10:03

BALPA Objects To Pilot ID Card Proposal

Newsletter (http://www.ocraworldwidenewsletter.com/story_aviation.asp?storyname=35159)

>>BALPA has written to the management of Manchester airport and London City airport - the first two locations selected by the Government to introduce the ID card to airside workers - and warned that pilots would not cooperate with the introduction of the ID card.<<

Excellent stuff. That sends out a very good signal.

biddedout

19th Mar 2009, 19:26

call100

19th Mar 2009, 21:30

I tried to raise a post on the Manchester forum.....Seems it's only inhabited by spotters. No one on there gave a stuff....It can only be hoped that the intelligent at Manchester get organised.....:sad:

Hansoff

22nd Mar 2009, 19:17

Just trying to get a renewed airside pass and no mention of an id card.
However, my referee was disallowed because he is retired - why? At my age most people who know me, contact me regularly and have known me for a while ARE retired as they have planned their lives better than me. Anyone else in this boat?
Disclosure accepted all my info - but the airport need me to go along with passport - disclosure - and NI card (or a P60, P45...) despite the fact I have had my pass for many years. If my current pass is good enough to get me airside for a few more months why isn't it good enough for the aiport authority to issue me another? Why should the airport or their employees know my income details? Do those checking my details have an airside pass? Have they been Disclosed? I am at a loss for any more words...

fireflybob

22nd Mar 2009, 20:36

Why should the airport or their employees know my income details?

You cannot be serious! I would have refused to supply this information - why should they need to know it.

Agree with all your other comments too.

golftangofox

23rd Mar 2009, 14:23

The Identity and Passport Service is now starting a survey of Manchester Airport staff in order to understand employees views on the proposed CWIC application form. Volunteers are being offered £75 of our governments money to take part in the survey. Not all volunteers will be called forward for interview. It would appear that successful volunteers will be aked to go through a trial application process and give their comments.

If this is true then it is imperative that the staff at Manchester are made aware of the pitfalls of accepting this bribe. It is important for them not to be reassured by government spin and platitudes and realise that once they are on this database they will be on it for life. They should be made aware of a lifetime threat of civil penalties, loss of personal privacy and security risks. Is that worth £75.00?

Interestingly a report on the database state out today from the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust, says that more than half of Whitehall's 46 databases and systems have significant problems with privacy (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/privacy) or effectiveness, and could fall foul of a legal challenge. It says Britain is now the most invasive surveillance (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/surveillance) state and the worst at protecting privacy of any western democracy.

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "In their desperation to track our every move, ministers have created a glut of databases, many of which are quite simply illegal." :D

Link: BBC NEWS | UK | Call to scrap 'illegal databases' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7955205.stm)

Ancient Observer

26th Mar 2009, 19:14

Interesting/humourous site about this......

http://aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf

radar707

29th Mar 2009, 16:10

Government Computer Systems Hacked:

Cyber Spies Hack Govt PCs Around The World - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090329/twl-cyber-spies-hack-govt-pcs-around-the-3fd0ae9.html)

ShotOne

29th Mar 2009, 20:17

This plan is a disaster from every angle. It is morally wrong and being done in a deceitful underhand fashion.Whats more we know the implementation will be a shambles wasting huge sums of our cash and they will leave our personal details on a bus.

manrow

29th Mar 2009, 20:23

Can someone please explain what is 'demeaning' about needing a card to gain access to what should be a high security area?

jshg

29th Mar 2009, 21:43

Yes, Manrow. We already have a 'card' to access a 'high security area' - the same one we've had for years, the good old airport ID card.
Our beloved government has decided it wants national ID cards, and has decreed that airport workers will have to have the national one. It's not compulsory, doesn't have to be carried to work, BUT we can't hold an airport ID without the 'voluntary' national ID, which is a dishonest nonsense because we therefore can't work.
The previous umpteen pages explain why this is irrelevant for security purposes.
It's 'demeaning' because it puts irrelevant details of our personal lives in the hands of semi-trained monkeys who will eventually leave these details on a train whilst dreaming about their index-linked pensions.

call100

30th Mar 2009, 02:27

Can someone please explain what is 'demeaning' about needing a card to gain access to what should be a high security area?
Are you for real? If after this lengthy thread and umpteen others you don't understand the difference between an ID card and an ID Database then there is possibly no hope.:ugh:

I see the Government is performing to type again. Sneaking in exit Visa's with no discussion under the guise of anti-terrorism. To visit the Isle of Wight you will need to provide a photo ID. i.e Driving licence or National ID card, surprise, surprise......Stalin is alive and well and comes from Redditch...I know Spartacan has tried to raise the issue of Exit Visas before and had his thread moved...Perhaps now the misguided sole who keeps doing the moving will see the link...

Spartacan

30th Mar 2009, 06:48

If it's good enough for Flight International it should be good enough for Pprune:

Airlines prepare for new UK border control initiative (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/24/319332/airlines-prepare-for-new-uk-border-control-initiative.html)

>>Airlines operating to and from the UK will soon be tasked with collecting comprehensive data from every passenger entering or leaving the country under a new government programme called e-Borders, which is expected to cost carriers £450 million ($669.2 million) in the first 10 years.

E-Borders is an initiative from the UK Home Office designed to identify any passengers that could pose a threat to homeland security before they enter the country. However, airlines are concerned about costly changes they will have to make to their reservation and departure control systems to comply with the programme, and also about a lack of information received from the government to prepare for it.

"Implementation has been a total disaster from an airline point of view," says one airline executive who prefers to remain anonymous. "E-Borders should have gone live on 2 October but we weren't even told until 24 October that it was delayed. The promises on when we would get the information were not met. The Home Office keeps putting an unrealistic timescale on us, yet they're reluctant to give the industry timely responses to our questions."<<

four_two

5th Apr 2009, 18:01

I see the Government is performing to type again. Sneaking in exit Visa's with no discussion under the guise of anti-terrorism. To visit the Isle of Wight you will need to provide a photo ID. i.e Driving licence or National ID card, surprise, surprise......Stalin is alive and well and comes from Redditch...I know Spartacan has tried to raise the issue of Exit Visas before and had his thread moved...Perhaps now the misguided sole who keeps doing the moving will see the link...

A pretty good article on the dangers of database security and citizen's data.
Jacqui gets a taste of her ugly snooper state | Jenni Russell - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article6036286.ece)

Our actions are about to be tracked and analysed from nursery to death. Forget the idea of growing out of your past; the state will never let you leave it behind. Schools will record not just your education, but also your family background and your behaviour. Fights in the playground, late attendance, trouble with your mother, an alcoholic father; it will all be there.

call100

5th Apr 2009, 19:27

That is an excellent article....However, what are the dim and ignorant population of this Country doing about it? Nothing is the answer...........As for the nothing to hide nothing to fear brigade...They are the worse.:mad: Hopefully it will be them they come for first.
Did anyone ask if anyone wanted their children on a database?
This Government won't be satisfied until they have a totalitarian state. Where your lives and deaths are completely controlled by them.
Those that haven't given in to the apathy running through the Country should fight all of this as best they can. Try create enough momentum to force an election...It's all that can save us at the moment.:}

Gipsy Queen

5th Apr 2009, 21:02

Agreed, call 100.

I'm inclined to think, given the obdurate nature of the fifth-raters running this dog and pony show masquerading as the British Government, a more effective approach would be to secure a guarantee from the opposition parties (in absolutely unequivocal terms) that they would scrap any ID system immediately upon assuming power.

Surely, not even this lot would proceed in the face of that?;)

four_two

6th Apr 2009, 12:32

I'm not a member of the tin foil hat brigade nor am I given to hyperbole but there does seem to be a worrying trend towards a situation similar to the way East Germany used to be - even to the extent of goverment adverts on the radio about spying on your neigbours to inform anything suspicious to the authorities.All in the name of countering terrorism of course!

So much information is now being gathered about us and placed in various databases run by assorted authorities and linked to one another to give a complete picture of our private and public details.Local authorities have even been using these details to prosecute residents for many trivial infractions.

Today another step towards collecting information about us comes into being.

Personal web data to be stored for a year - Home News, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/personal-web-data-to-be-stored-for-a-year-1662237.html)

The mobile calls, emails and website visits of every person in Britain will be stored for a year under sweeping new powers which come into force on Monday. Privacy campaigners warned last night that the information would be used by the Government to create a giant "Big Brother" super-database containing a map of everyone's private life.

The new powers will, for the first time, place a legal duty on internet companies to store private information, including email traffic and website browsing histories.

Although the new retention powers will not permit the storage of the content of emails or phone calls it will show details such as IP addresses, date, time and user telephone numbers. Under the terms of the EU directive, the Home Office has written to leading internet service providers and phone companies offering to compensate them for the costs incurred in retaining the data for a year.
We all know another form of ID for pilots is a nonsense for the many reasons already mentioned in this thread, and I think just as bad are all the forms of invasions of privacy happening now also.

Tinstaafl

7th Apr 2009, 00:42

Have they never heard of encryption, anonymous DNS servers, anonymous peer-to-peer, VPN or the Tor network**? As for the UK's RIPA and access to one's passwords: Have the passwords kept by some trusted entity outside the UK's jurisdiction and use those encrypted & Tor-ed servers to access the 'secret' data via VPM. Sounds like their measures are aimed at the average user, not those who are really serious about keeping their web use secret.

Which begs the question: Why are they really doing it? And all the other privacy eroding projects?

**Tor is a network of encrypting, anonymising & randomising routing servers. Only the last server in a sequence of many knows what IP address your data is really going to or coming from - and that last hop wouldn't necessarily be within reach of the UK.

-----------
Blody tipos

jshg

7th Apr 2009, 10:36

I agree - why on earth are they doing all this, when they have been told over and over that it won't work, and will cost a fortune? I suspect that it started as a macho reaction to the post 911 Bush era, with Bush's lapdog faithfully following his master; anyway, I doubt we'll ever know.
To answer Gipsy Queen's question a few posts back, I recently wrote to my MP on this and other subjects, as requested by BALPA. The relevant part of his reply is :

"Conservatives have made it absolutely clear that should we win the next election, we would immediately scrap this scheme .... The government's latest cost estimate for providing IDs to British nationals is £4.8bn, although independent studies have suggested that this number could in fact be far higher ...."

I've never supported any particular party, but the conclusion is obvious ....

Businesstraveller

7th Apr 2009, 11:43

Why shouldn't pilots accept the introduction of ID cards for the highly sensitive areas in which they regularly work? For a very good reason:

It seems a reasonable request on the surface, which once established will then be rolled out to another section of people in this country. This will carry on until the meglomaniac government gets its wish of every Tom, Dick and Harry having an ID card just because it suits the intrusive and frankly bloody nosey government/police/security services we have in this country! Before you know it you'll be required to produce your ID card for things you woudn't credit it being reasonable for at the moment.

N.B. Churchill abolished ID cards in 1952, sighting them as a menace to the public good. A motorist refused to produce his ID card in 1950 when stopped by the police for no stated reason. When the case went to the High Court, the Law Lord presiding made the following statement, which is as valid now as it was when it was made in 1952:

"it is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration indemnity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause. Of course, if they are looking for a stolen car or have reason to believe that a particular motorist is engaged in committing a crime, that is one thing, but to demand a national registration identity card from all and sundry, for instance, from a lady who may leave her car outside a shop longer than she should, or some trivial matter of that sort, is wholly unreasonable. This Act was passed for security purposes, and not for the purposes for which, apparently, it is now sought to be used. To use Acts of Parliament, passed for particular purposes during war, in times when the war is past, except that technically a state of war exists, tends to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs. Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them"

P.S. I'm a law abiding, tax paying, conformist member of UK society. But of course you'll be able to confirm that if ID cards are introduced, because you can be sure the system won't be secure (even the CIA central computer isn't secure remember) thus meaning once the government completes the donkey work of collecting the data, it will be lost/stolen and then appear on the internet to the highest bidder!

Happy days....

bast0n

7th Apr 2009, 12:17

Dominic Grieve has said it is “high time” Labour abandon their "ill-fated" ID cards project after Jacqui Smith unveiled the design of ID cards for foreign nationals.

The Shadow Home Secretary stressed, “ID cards are an expensive white elephant that risk making us less - not more - safe.”

And he said the Government were “kidding themselves” if they think ID Cards for foreign nationals will protect against illegal immigration or terrorism - as they don't apply to those coming here for less than three months.

A Conservative Government would abandon the ID cards project, and Dominic said he hoped Labour had taken that into account when they negotiated the contracts.

You read it here second.

call100

7th Apr 2009, 14:31

I believe, to be even handed on this, that the LibDems are also opposed to it and have said they will scrap it. In fact their concerns on Privacy and the Surveillance State are far better documented than any other party.
ID cards and the attached Data Base are being introduced for one purpose and one purpose only, State Control of it's citizens.

manrow

26th Apr 2009, 07:58

Leaked reports from government suggest that these 'ID cards may become a casualty of the severe financial cut-backs necessary to see our way through the world financial crisis'.

But since we don't believe what government say are leaks likely to be any more reliable?

40KTSOFFOG

26th Apr 2009, 09:09

And your source? Hope it's true!

Pilot Pete

26th Apr 2009, 22:51

Apparently the Conservative Party have said it would be one item that they would bin to save money if they get in.:ok:

BBC NEWS | Politics | Osborne warns of 'tough' choices (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8019458.stm)

PP

coldair

27th Apr 2009, 08:54

Acording to that BBC report the Consertives only said;

Mr Osborne said his party would look to cut back on expensive spending programmes such as identity cards, while also concentrating on the culture in Whitehall and public sector pay as ways to save money.

They are not saying they WILL, if that report is correct.

I'm getting woried now :bored:

Spartacan

28th Apr 2009, 06:48

The following comment was posted on the NO2ID website by their General Secretary:

NO2ID :: View topic - Ind: Scrap ID cards now, say Cabinet rebels (http://forum.no2id.net/viewtopic.php?t=27481)

>>Please don't assume that the ID scheme is a Labour project. It is a Home Office/Cabinet Office project, that has been political endorsement by the present administration. The most recent announcements from the IPS indicate that it has been reconfigured to hibernate during a hostile administration, but that there is a strategy to box in the Tories and force them to build at least some of the infrastructure as part of passport 'modernisation'.<<

hellsbrink

28th Apr 2009, 10:53

Please don't assume that the ID scheme is a Labour project. It is a Home Office/Cabinet Office project, that has been political endorsement by the present administration.

I see the political monkeys have trouble with their native language. Nice to see they have lost the argument to such an extent that they are saying that an idea THEY thought up, involving THEIR departments, has nothing to do with them!!

Otherwise, it's almost as comical as Gordon Brown saying, during his "apology" over the smears from his own advisers, "I take full responsibility for what happened and that is why the person who was responsible went immediately".

OFSO

21st May 2009, 15:38

See Jetblast:

"Badges ? We don't need no stinking badges !"

for latest ID card Fiasco from Wacki Jacqui

paulF99

28th May 2009, 17:22

Sneaky stuff going on behind the scenes, as reported by NO2ID on 22/05/2009:

+ National Identity Cards Scheme Draft Orders laid before Parliament +

Four new Statutory Instruments under the Identity Cards Act 2006 were published last week. Statutory Instruments provide the detailed regulations which implement Acts of Parliament. One of the orders relates to designated documents - when an individual applies for a designated document that individual must apply at the same time to be entered in the National Identity Register and apply for an ID card. The order seeks to make a criminal conviction certificate (issued as part of a Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) check) for those applying for an airside pass a designated document. This is the way in which the government will force airport staff on to the ID scheme. The other orders relate to fees, Information and Code of Practice on Penalties and Provision of Information without Consent. For more details see the report on SpyBlog at

National Identity Cards Scheme creep - 4 Draft Orders laid before Parliament under the Identity Cards Act 2006 - Spy Blog - SpyBlog.org.uk (http://spyblog.org.uk/2009/05/national-identity-cards-scheme-creep---4-draft-orders-laid-before-parliament.html)

Jimmy Do Little

29th May 2009, 17:20

Just to clarify this. This is a post about some pilots NOT wanting to wear ID cards. Correct? I'll bet that they're happy to flash their ALPA ID Cards (or similiar) when it suits them. Hypocrites.

Spartacan

29th May 2009, 18:22

>>Just to clarify this. This is a post about some pilots NOT wanting to wear ID cards. Correct?<<

Incorrect. This is about the campaign against the UK Government's National Identity Register which seeks to create a database of every citizens's personal details so they can be tracked and monitored.

Check out the debate at: stop the database state » NO2ID (http://www.no2id.net)

call100

30th May 2009, 23:42

Just to clarify this. This is a post about some pilots NOT wanting to wear ID cards. Correct? I'll bet that they're happy to flash their ALPA ID Cards (or similiar) when it suits them. Hypocrites.
Just to clarify this.....You should have maybe read the thread properly. Then you would not have made such an ass of yourself.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

A and C

9th Jun 2009, 22:32

Please tell me how an ID card would help if a crew member had become mentaly unbalanced?

The fact is this is all about the Labour goverments paranoid aim to control the population, perhaps the one eyed scotish git should be able to control his own ministers first.

hellsbrink

10th Jun 2009, 02:28

I agree with everyones discontent with this and how frustrating it must be having to already just do ordinary security checks... however it only takes one pilot that is suffering from psychological problems to cause some massive damage. If you had a pilot come on board with a pistol of such or another weapon and they caused grievous harm to the other flight crew then they suddenly have the lives of possibly 350 or more people in their hands. I'd hate to think what the outcomes of something like that would be. Such events to come to mind.... what about the fed ex flight engineer that brought in a spear gun and almost killed those pilots and took down the plane. Or the qantas pilot whom had an urge through depression to pull back the throttle on takeoff roll.

Don't get me wrong i think it's hard enough on you guys already... but it is something that should be taken into consideration

I don't even know where to start with the above post......... :ugh:

Nov71

10th Jun 2009, 03:09

Hands up all those with nothing to hide.
Have you checked your emails, tel numbers called, medical and credit files?

Manchester citizens will be the first to apply for their voluntary UK ID, so to avoid queues around the block at Govt offices, we can have our personal details recorded by the local post office, chemist and poss anyone else that wants to get paid for doing the job. Fertile ground for scammers.

mephisto88

10th Jun 2009, 05:37

DominicYPGV...If you had a pilot come on board with a pistol of such or another weapon...

Not only are you missing the point(by a country mile!) about the reasons for the resistance to the ID card issue, you have clearly lost the plot when it comes to weapons. Give your brain a chance before you hit the keyboard.

Heres a quiz, that even people who demonstrate a sub100 IQ should still be able to do well:

What is the most dangerous weapon to the ...lives of possibly 350 or more people... that a pilot may have:

a) a pistol,
or
b) 200+ ton bomb packed with fuel, oil, bodies and crusty sandwiches, and - shock horror - controlled by one of those troublesome argumentative pilots.

answers on a postcard to......:ugh:

There is no need to force through the ID card issue with the undue haste that is so clearly apparent, when aircrew currently have more than adequate means of proving their credentials. Perhaps the government should instead 1) review its policy on allowing any Tom Dick and Mustaffa to just walk into the country, and 2) be firmer in deporting those who once in, lawfully or otherwise, seek to do ill harm to the people, values and established way of living in the UK.

DominicYPGV - get a grip of the bigger picture will ya plse.

Rant over.

Pilot Pete

10th Jun 2009, 09:51

Give DominicYPGV a break, he's only 17 according to his profile and still a student. I personally can forgive him for falling for the much vaunted government line that ID cards will make us all safer.

Fact is though Dominic, the 'safer' concept is just spin, by a government that has now fallen to its knees and will not be with us for much longer. The scheme is going to cost billions of pounds and is a complete waste of taxpayers money, when our economy is so far up the swanny that our children, and possibly even our children's children are going to be paying the price for years to come.

The scheme is all about surveillence of the population. It is doing away with the rights of individuals. We have seen this creeping in year after year here in the UK with CCTV cameras in every city and town, monitoring our every move. Why? Because the whole society has taken a too pc stance for years and allowed kids to grow up with no sanctions on bad behaviour. They become adults with similar anti-social lifestyles and the police and criminal justice system have been unable to control them. The easy option? Get video evidence. It makes policing easier, leads to easier convictions. But, at what cost? ALL of us under surveillence 24hrs a day. Nothing to fear if you are innocent! Right, tell that to the many, many convicted but innocent people from the 1960s-1990s who were 'stitched up' and sent to prison by a corrupt minority of police.

So, now ID cards. They WILL become compulsory, after having been introduced via the back door - 'voluntarily' for airport workers who can't get their airport security pass issued or renewed without them and will effectively be laid off if they refuse to get one. We are considered a 'trusted party', which means that they can issue them without too many problems as we have already had all the background checks done. Next will be people like Prison Officers, Police, Firefighters, Civil Servants etc etc etc until all of a sudden 10 million people have had them 'voluntarily' forced upon them. Eventually you will have to have one to go about your daily business - they will make rules like needing to show a national ID card to book a train ticket, a flight, to gain access to a city centre, the list could go on. Eventually you will be unable to live your life without one.

And will this stop terrorism? No. Will this prevent the 'unhinged' pilot from taking control of his aircraft and wreaking havoc? Of course not. Remember, the pilot already has control, he doesn't need a weapon. He just choses his moment and there is nothing anyone can do about it if he is thus inclined. Can you now see why yor previous post was so ridiculed by others? ID cards will do NOTHING to prevent terrorist attacks. How many of the bombers in the UK on 7/7 would they have stopped? None. They were all British Citizens. They are what is known as 'clean skins', they grow up here, have no criminal convictions and then turn fundamentalist. They would all be eligible to apply for and get a national id card! As for the Glasgow bombers - they were Doctors in the NHS! Do you think they would be refused a national ID card if they had jumped through all the hoops for issue?

The whole ID card thing is part of a much bigger plan to control the populace. If you haven't already, take a look at stop the database state » NO2ID (http://www.no2id.net/) and just have a read about DNA database expansion, the monitoring of all phone calls, emails, urls visited etc etc and just see how unjust this really is. And do you think they had a public referrendum asking our opinion on whether we want this or not? I'll let you guess at the answer.

PP

Doctor Cruces

10th Jun 2009, 11:46

Wouldn't worry too much about this. Dave the Rave cameron will scrap the ID card when his lot get in next year so it's not gonna happen.

:)

Doc C

Road_Hog

10th Jun 2009, 12:45

Quite simply, ID cards are there to track and monitor the British civilian population. Most of us have photo ID in the way of a driving licence or passport.

We're fed the line that they're being introduced to tackle crime and terrorists. Well criminals and terrorists have the resources to forge ID cards much as they did with passports.

The irony of all this is the lengths that the MPs, PM and the Speaker went to, to block the publishing of their expenses (and even when they lost the last battle they wanted to take a black marker pen to them) and the instigator of the cards was the 2nd Home Secretary who looks like she'll be before the magistrates for it.

hellsbrink

10th Jun 2009, 17:42

nilcostoptionmyass

15th Jun 2009, 13:41

Well said pilot pete, I couldn't agree more, I fully support any angenda that puts a stop to this nonsense, of course they will be out of government soon, about time since in the last 12 years they have let anyone in the uk and hence have no idea who is even here, even convicted foreign criminals don't get booted out.

maxred

15th Jun 2009, 13:58

Well said PP. This all started in the Bliar years where a controlling insidious goverment deliberately fed the population 'false fears'. The notion that the government is 'looking after you'. Total nonsense. The constant resort to 'war on terror' etc, is another deliberate ploy to effectively control the populations movements and actions. By being 'afraid', we can manipulate in any manner we wish. ID card introduction is another thread on the theme of control and contain.

Meanwhile they are all stealing at the golden trough. Tiime the whole population stood up and shouted enough is enough and we get rid of them all - and I mean all of them.:ugh::ugh:

cyclops16

15th Jun 2009, 14:11

In the case of a homegrown terrorist threat ID cards will solve nothing.All they serve is to be able to identify the bodies easier. Did anyone notice that the Government said last week they are cutting the Forsensic Science people by 1/2 ,those very people you would need in a catastrophe to help identify the bodies by Dental or DNA records.So they cut down on the staff and give us all labels. Sorry, I mean't ID cards instead.This lot would make the Gestapo or the Stasi proud by their prosposed plan and the way they can have a complete file on everyone using 21st Century methods, it certainly beats the old card index.I also noticed that they have opened it up to outside contracts as far as I am concerned there are way too many ways for my ID to get lost between contractor (Chemist,Post office,etc) and the issuing agency and the only way they are going to get such personal information from me like my Fingerprints is via a fully legal source such as the Police who have years of experience and a fully accountable in these matters,not some snotty nose chemist whose bosses want a cut of the action.

call100

15th Jun 2009, 14:16

the Police who have years of experience and a fully accountable in these matters
Is that the same Police that are compiling a DNA database on innocent people for the Government????

Bruce Wayne

16th Jun 2009, 10:18

Good to see the Government still manages to maintain secure information..

Oops! Building firm blurts out secrets of hush-hush MI5 HQ

Oops! Building firm blurts out secrets of hush-hush MI5 HQ - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6493658.ece)

wonderfully....

"[...] By contrast the agency had been hoping to keep the existence of its £20m northern headquarters a secret.

MI5 decided to build the spy base after a review of the intelligence failures leading up to the suicide bombings in London on July 7, 2005."

ECAM_Actions

16th Jun 2009, 12:23

It's a great big CON!!!!

I'd like to know how carrying a piece of plastic prevents someone committing an offence? Pick any.

Good luck to everyone in over-turning this. Think of all the tax revenue lost from all those canceled flights.

ECAM Actions.

flyingvikings

16th Jun 2009, 13:28

I currently got admission in the Madiba Bay School of Flight in South Africa and also I got admission into the Canadian Flight Center BC Canada. I am just confused as Madiba bay seems to be cheap $25,000 for PPL, CPL, IR, MULTI while the Canadian Flight Center will cost me $33,000 for same. Please someone advise me where to study which will give me a better experience and job opportunity. From both which is more respected Canadian License of the South African License.

I am just confused....

Mushroom_2

16th Jun 2009, 18:19

This guy might be worth listening to.

Law lord lashes out at ID cards ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/16/id_card_what_for/)

Road_Hog

17th Jun 2009, 10:59

The Tories have written to five firms bidding to supply ID cards warning them not to sign any long-term contracts.

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Tories warn firms off ID scheme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8104481.stm)

spanner the cat

17th Jun 2009, 20:31

My worry is that the contracts for the private sector work to setup the infrastructure will be booby trapped by penalty clauses, making it difficult to pull out of the scheme. Interesting that the overall cost is quoted as £4.7bn but the tories reckon they'd only save the exchequer £2bn by scrapping the scheme. :uhoh:

Don't forget that the Civil Service doesn't change with a change of Government - despite its politicisation by the Stalinist Party. The same faces will be there after the next election....I'll bet with their Departmentmental budget allotment to protect - and associated jobs - the Oppositions plans to chop the scheme aren't too popular. :}

The cards themselves, if forged, will make it easier for badhats to fraudulently represent themselves as the legitimate cardholder. The scheme's a nightmare. I'm MAN based and hope this all goes away before I'm made to get one of these things. I never thought the day would come when, as a British Citizen, I routinely had to justify who I was to the Civil "Servant" wanting me to do so. :mad:

It shows you how utterly wrong we've gone when you see the result of a number of inbounds arriving together in one of Manchester's terminals very early on a Sunday Morning during Summer. Last year the queues waiting to clear passport control stretched the entire length of the terminal. The vast majority of them were UK passport holders back from their hols. UK passport holders trying to return to their own country, and having their passports minutely examined by the reduced complement of border agency staff at that time of the morning. Hmmm. The project is well underway. :E

S78

22nd Jun 2009, 09:50

The cost of ID cards: £2,857 each - Yahoo! News UK (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/14/20090621/tpl-the-cost-of-id-cards-2-857-each-81c5b50.html)

S78

call100

23rd Jun 2009, 22:06

Alan Johnson knows that the ID issue will be the final nail in the coffin....He's looking for a way out....Whether or not he'll find it in time is $64,000 question...
Alan Johnson eyes ID card U-turn - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6493943.ece)

Riverboat

24th Jun 2009, 10:06

I am sure the French would "down tools" over this matter if they were in our position, and really the whole pilot community should rail against and refuse to accept the ID card, if it is only they who are going to have it. It would be a pity to spoil thousands of people's holidays, business travel etc., and I guess foreign airlines would reap the immediate benefit.

But this is an important question of principle and we should not let ourselves be distracted from the issue. It would be wrong, stupid and discriminatory, and if we have got any character, as a body, we should show that character IF there is no U-turn.

I know this echoes nearly all posters' views, but wanted to add my "voice".

Let's keep hoping sense prevails.

RB

magicarpet

18th Aug 2009, 10:15

Earlier this month, in a landmark ruling made by high court judge, Justice Bill Blair (the brother of the former PM), André Power, a businessman, was denied compensation for a mistake on a court database, a mistake which cost him his business. Whilst the court admits the mistake and does not refute that Mr Power was financially crippled by it, Justice Blair ruled that the civil service cannot be found liable for the damage caused by its record keeping mistakes.

Let me run that by you once again:

The civil service cannot be found liable for the damage caused by its record keeping mistakes.
(Court of Appeal, August 4th 2009).

This means two things are almost guaranteed about the National Identity Register (the database behind ID Cards).

1.There will be a cavalier attitude by those who administer it, which will inevitably lead to inaccuracies, security leaks and a lack of vigilance against malicious attacks.

2.Innocent people will go to prison, lose their livelihoods, and worse, and there will be no redress. NONE.

Are you SURE you still want to volunteer for an ID Card ?