Spinning - recommendations please

[EGHOboi]

Hi everyone...

I'm working my way through the PPL syllabus and have just completed stalling.

Although I've been told it's not a mandatory exercise, I'd like to experience full spins / spin recovery however the aircraft I'm training in is not approved for this procedure. The local school I'm with does not have an aircraft that is.

Can anyone recommend a school or professional independent instructor in Hampshire, Berkshire or Dorset areas (or just outside) where I could do this? The main objective is to use this as a learning exercise in order to understand the spinning process and how to recover. What I don't want is a gun-ho pilot who will use the opportunity just to thrill themselves or impress onlookers with a full aerobatic routine, with me sat wondering what on earth's going on!

Look forward to your constructive recommendations. Thanks for your help in advance.

[Pilot DAR]

Hi EGHOboi,

Your attitude seems right, which is a good start for spin training. I cannot offer specific locations for spin training near you, but perhaps a little advice.

Though there are a number of aircraft approved in the "utility' category, and therefore likely approved for spins, I have found the Cessna 150/152/172 very good for spin training. Look for a school whoh uses these aircraft. I think it's entirely fine to take a side trak from your main school for a little extra training in the aircraft type capable of the manuevers you would likt to learn.

I completely agree that you are entitled to the training you want. Explain exactly what you want, and expect to get it. If what you want is an hour or two of one turn spins, there's no reason that cannot be provided to you by a compotent instructor. You need not suffer undesired aerobatics - if it happens, the pilot you're flying with is not professional or compotent - don't go again with them!

Be resaaured that it is a certification requirement for any of these types that it must not be possible to obtain an unrecoverable spin with any use of the controls. Most spin approved type will get themselves at least somewhat recovered just by letting go. Of course, a properly executed recovery is what you're there to learn, and is what should be done, but don't be afraid of it!

Other aircraft typs I've been required to spin during flight tests really do require a deliberate spin recovery, or the recovery would be (okay, was, on a few occasions!) very delayed and sloppy, with exceedances of other limitations possible. In a 150/152/172, you'd really have to be well away from the proper recovery technique to creat an unsafe situation. It will look scary the first few times though!

Don't forget to fly the plane, don't let it fly you!

Have fun!

Pilot DAR

[Duchess_Driver]

For it to be done properly.....

try these guys.....

Ultimate High - Flying School, Air Displays and corporate entertainment (http://www.ultimatehigh.co.uk/index.php)

Single spin trips right through to full aeros training and beyond!

HTH

DD

[Runaway Gun]

I too recommend the Ultimate High guys at Kemble :ok:

[TheGorrilla]

I'd say it depends on what you want to learn. If you're doing your ppl on a 172 and you're concerned about accidental spin, then go spin one of those. I'd suggest more emphasis is placed on the incipient stage of the spin in this case, though wise to have a look at a developed one too. Or if you just want the experience of watching the world rotate rapidly infront of you for a while, go and spin a fully aerobatic beastie for 5 or 6 turns.

[Mad Girl]

EGHOboi - Check your PM's

[coodem]

The piper PA-38 tomahawk makes a good spin trainer. They are not forgiving, but will recover, as long as you use the correct methods to recover.

So add schools with PA38's to your list as well, I am an instructor based at Cranfield and would be more than happy to teach you, but I think its a bit out of your way

[vanHorck]

I disagree with all the above.

Let the poster finish his PPL first under the control of one school and once he gets his PPL, go on to the advanced training he wishes.

By then he could decide to go for spin training, for IMC (the weather is a bigger killer) or any other training which is appropriate for him.

The syllabus was not written the way it is for nothing. Furthermore to advocate changing types of planes, airport and school procedures half way, to then return to the original ones is stupid.

It will cost more to the student and delay his training.

One step at the time....

I can remember having the same urge when i did my stalls. My instructor showed me an incipient spin and a spiral dive, but i continued on my quest for more knowledge on stalls. Nevertheless, I now feel that spin training so early on in my flying career would not have benefitted me, especially not if it had to be done in a different location by unknown instructors in different planes with different RT and different school and airport procedures. The only way to do this would be if your current school was willing to insert an hour of spin training in a plane you knew, but even then the benefits would be minor at this stage

[Karl Bamforth]

I agree with everyone really but just in the right order. Finish your PPL first, then find the money to convert to another type and do the spin training at the same time. That is exactly what I did.

At the end of my PPL I had deposit money resting with the school. I transferred it to 5 hrs conversion and spin training.

[EGHOboi]

Thanks for your helpful comments. My PPL Air Pilots Manual 1 (Flying Training) includes the full spin as exercise 11b - just after stalling / incipient spin and before going into the circuit. It does state that it's not a mandatory exercise which I appreciate. With respect to recent replies in this thread I guess a good question to answer is; when do you think it's best to do these - at this stage or after the course is complete? Could be useful for other PPRuNe PPL wannabes to read in the future...

[Lister Noble]

I had exactly the same feelings as you,but I finished my PPL first then did 25 mins in a Citabria spin training,then about a year later 40 mins spins in an Extra.
Spins are quite disconcerting ,and you will feel very disoriented at first.
My aim was not to get into a situation that I could not get out of,and primarily not to get into a spin in the first place!

As mentioned do it with an experienced instructor,there are lots in East Anglia although that is not much help to you,but as suggested,I'm sure there must be excellent places to do it nearer to you.
Lister:)

[DavidHoul52]

I did some spin training in a PA38 at the Highlands Flying School post PPL, which included recovery from fully developed spins.

It feels like doing a backward somersault while falling over a cliff. A big breakfast beforehand is not recommended.

Expect to look pale and feel ill afterwards.

[Lurking123]

There are many of us here who had to do spins as part of their PPL. The reasons why they were removed as a mandatory element are well documented. However, when they were removed the requirement from slow speed awareness training was increased. The theory was that students (at least PPL students) should be given far greater depth of knowledge in how to avoid spins/stall etc rather than just learning how to recover. After all, the most likely scenario for an inexperience pilot to get into a spin is the base/final turn at about 500ft or so; spin recovery technique in this environment is rather academic.
Intentional spinning is a bit like instructors encouraging students to 'play around' within the stall; what's the point? These are flight regimes that the inexperienced should be recognising the onset of and subsequently avoiding.
I'm not sure the average PPL student would gain much from a short lesson in spinning and it is probably something you should do after your PPL, along with other continuous learning skills. That said, if you wish to burn some money........

PS. The PA38 does indeed spin well. It can also bite. I can think of far more benign aircraft I would wish to use to demonstrate spins. :oh:

[Karl Bamforth]

If you want to learn about spins and spin recovery 25 mins really is not enough. For the first 5/6 spins the world goes around the windscreen pretty quickly, only from number seven onwards does it appear to slow down enough to feel you have control.

Its not just the spinning that counts, learn all about it, despite it being considered dangerous and at least one person here indicated he fell queasy it is in fact a stable flight condition which in a well manufactured and balanced aircraft will respond in a quite precise way.

For anyone that has or is thinking about spinning a PA38, have you ever found time to look back as you enter the spin (not recommended if you are in control). I have spun PA38's twice, once in command and the second time as a passenger where I was told to look back at the fin. As an engineer that is something I never want to see again and I will never spin a PA38 again. :ooh: I have never seen a fin move so much without failing and I now understand why the fin on a PA38 requires so many inspections and modifications.:sad:

[India Four Two]

I'll chip in my 2 cents worth. I've spun Chipmunks, 172s, Citabrias and Tomahawks, and taught spinning in gliders - Blanik L13 and Lark IS28B2.

I agree with Karl about spins in the Tomahawk (although I have never looked at the tail while doing so) - it was by far the most uncomfortable and unpleasant spin I have ever experienced.

However, I feel strongly that even if spin training is no longer mandatory, students should be encouraged to try spinning with a qualified instructor, preferably in the type they are learning on, if it is certified for spins.

For many years, I could not imagine how a pilot could accidentally get into a spin, until one day, while my student was thermalling at 35kts, with half flap, about 5kts above the stall, we suddenly became inverted and were entering a spin.

What was interesting was that the student, who was a "natural" pilot (quick to learn, flew precisely, understood the theory, etc.), had not yet seen spins and was completely shocked and had absolutely no idea what had happened until I explained it to him.

So EGHOboi, go and get some spin training and then if you want to expand your skills, during instrument training, try spinning under the hood and recovering using partial panel!

[vanHorck]

The question was: Should a ppl student who has just done stalls go to another school NOW to do some spin training (apparently he must have asked his own instructor or school and they won't or can't oblige).

The answer should honestly be: All in good time, now is not the time to change your rhythm.

I agree spin training is good (though preferably not in a PA38) but i strongly suggest you finish the PPL first and then take it up

[chrisbl]

If you are lo0king at the Berkshire Hampshire region then Blackbushe Aviation at Blackbushe have an Aerobat they use for Aeros.

I bought a spinning session for a PPL friend who had trained on a Pa28 and he enjoyed it tremendously.

[Ultranomad]

I did my spin training in a Yak-52. The first spin was eye-popping... I knew the theory but never expected it to be so quick and steep (it was about 60° nose down but at first seemed almost vertical). The second one was somewhat easier. From the third time on, it was pure enjoyment. Although Yak-52 is quite dangerous in inexperienced hands and will not get out of a spin by itself, it can safely do all kinds of spins - steep or flat, upright or inverted, and with the right technique recovers easily and reliably from all of them.
After the Yak, a spin in a Cessna was nothing to write home about.

[eharding]

It feels like doing a backward somersault while falling over a cliff. A big breakfast beforehand is not recommended.

Expect to look pale and feel ill afterwards.

I'd take issue with both of those points.

Firstly, the vast majority of problems associated with sickness experienced by those unused to aerobatics are caused by an empty stomach - anxiety, combined with a lot of unused stomach acid (or even worse, a couple of cups of coffee and nothing else) swilling about in there is bound to cause a degree of nausea. Personally, my ideal start to the perfect day of aerobatics involves a Full English breakfast, but at the very least I'd recommend something moderately filling. Cassidy strongly advocates the use of porridge as the breakfast of aerobatic champions; Sod that, I say - go for an egg banjo as a minimum - you can work up to Unlimited Porridge later.

Secondly, having dealt with the basic nutritional issues, the fact is that people often think themselves into a state of nausea - so called "fearful anticipation" - not helped by comments such as those above by DH. You shouldn't emerge from the aircraft after your first spinning trip "pale and feeling ill afterwards" - you should emerge with a stupid grin, probably rather sweaty, and wondering (a) what all the doom and gloom was about (b) that it was actually bloody good fun and (c) when can you go again?

Failure to achieve (a),(b) and (c) would largely be down to a combination of the instructor and the airframe. I would recommend seeking out an instructor for whom spinning, and aerobatics in general, are second nature. In order for you to be relaxed, you need to be in the company of someone who has the experience and ability that *no* matter how badly you manage to botch the affair, they will be able to sort it out in short order. The choice of airframe is also important - if you want to experience the maximum amount of spin training for your money, then choose something aerobatic with an acceptable degree of performance (Cessna Aerobats need not apply, sorry) - otherwise most of your money will be spent having some wheezing spamcan ponderously claw itself back up to height at your expense.

Given your stated location requirements, I would say get yourself down to White Waltham and book a session with Cassidy or one of the other excellent aerobatic instructors there - you will get a thorough ground briefing explaining the theory of, and a lucid, measured practical training in the practise of spinning in a capable airframe.

Oh, and the food is brilliant as well.

[madflyer26]

I think it would probably be best to finish your PPL then give consideration to spin training. Most if not all decide after the lessons on slow flight and incipient spins that is enough for them and would much rather the prevention method as suppose to the cure. I came from a sailplane back ground and it was compulsory to complete spin training before you could fly solo although the sailplane I went solo on was fairly spin resistant (T21) however the Polish Puchaz spun very well and was great fun and our CFI of the day was a great advocate of spin training when we attained a height of 3000ft AGL on a training flight. We were lucky at our club to receive a spin training day from one of the BGA safety officers and he could spin the Puchaz from a winch launch which looking back now I think is crazy considering we normally reached around 1200ft aal from a winch launch!! As other posters have alluded to spinning is not a big killer post PPL more so weather or VFR into IMC. Spinning still kills pilots and most would be from failed engines on take off and an attempt at turning back. There was a video of a Tiger Moth with a wing walker and the said aircraft experienced a loss of power on take off and the pilot attempted a turn back and stalled and spun in resulting in instant death of the wing walker and the pilot succumbing to his injuries later. The other scenario is engine failure and an attempt to stretch the glide or low slow turns. Rant over good luck with your PPL it's great fun and if you want to experience spinning in the purest form don't discount a trip to your local gliding club where I am sure any of the instructors would be happy to show you spinning.:ok:
Regards MF26

[TheGorrilla]

Well said eharding!! I especially agree with the idea of a full english. Though my preference would be steak or curry. The point about a high performance aircraft is equally valid for 2 reasons... 1) eharding needs this to get airborne in the first place, and 2) maximum effective use of instructional time by recovering lost height (or just gaining it in the first place) quickly. I think the RAF selected the bigger engine for their Bulldogs for reason 2.

.... And yes having someone with you who knows what they're doing when it comes to sorting out your mistakes is a bonus. Better than hitting the ground. Hence my earlier comment about incipient spin recovery was in similar vein.

Personally, I'd spin during the course. I did this during my ATPL course when it was mandatory to spin. We did about 4 or 5 in a T67c.... Then spent 2 hours looping and rolling. It was a nice break from flying under the screens.

[BackPacker]

As others have said - it's probably best to finish your PPL first, and then do a sort of Advanced PPL package somewhere.

Spinning is great fun and surprisingly hard to do accurately, but it's not the only thing that improves your awareness of what an aircraft can do, and your ability to deal with it. If you're going up with an aerobatics instructor, here's a few other things you can think of:

- Fully developed idle power stall with the yoke/stick to the aft stops, trying to keep the aircraft level with just the rudder.
- Departure stall (full power stall with a really high nose up attitude)
- Approach stall (the turn to final stall/spin scenario, with not enough speed, not enough power, not enough bank, yoke/stick back and helping the aircraft turn with the rudder)
- Steep turns up to the limits of the aircraft - usually 75 degrees AoB = 4G.
- Accelerated stall = stall in a steep turn
- Wingovers at 90 degree AoB
- Extreme side- and forward slips (with full rudder application)
As an "awareness" session, all this can be combined in one flight of an hour, maybe an hour and a half.

Got to warn you though: if you enjoy this, the next steps are typically barrel rolls, aileron rolls and loops, followed by a cuban eight and then you're hooked on aerobatics...:ok:

[Nibbler]

As to locations, Bournemouth Flying Club has 3 aerobatic aircraft you can train in and they are local to you, as I think do Old Sarum near Salisbury

[studen]

pilot DAR do you know by chance if the DA-20 katana is cleared for spinning as spin recovery is mentioned in the handbook but doesnt say if its cleared or not ????:E

[studen]

as a 35 hour ppl student ive covered stalls and been told about spin recovery in theory but as i dont fly an aircraft cleared for spins have never tried it but by what ive heard it sounds quite scary at least at first! personally id rather be trained on it early on so that during solo flights if i got a bit too slow and the worst did happen id know wat to do and what to expect and hopefully not push up the daisies!!:E

[Pace]

Studen

The problem with spinning is that no two spins maybe the same. ie same aircraft different loading and different spin. Even same type aircraft, different aircraft, same loading different spin.

You are somewhat in the unknown hence the caution. If you spin at low level chances are you wont recover hence I believe the reason to only go to the incipient stage.

Should you spin for real? The answer has to be a resounding yes. In the same way should you take a car onto a skid pan? Yes it makes you a more confident driver to operate beyond the realms of normal driving grip.

The same goes for aircraft but please do it with plenty of air below the aircraft.

Pace

[Mark1234]

For what it's worth, I'm PPL and gliders, bit over 100hrs in each, aeros trained and certified for both.

Don't be in too much of a rush to do spinning - personally I got spun pretty early in my career - I performed a badly hamfisted, skidded base turn and got taken up immediately to have the consequences of such action demonstrated. Effective demonstration, but it was a tad overwhelming and did scare the bejesus out of me, consequently stalling my flight training for a while therafter. I had maybe 5hrs at the time (and was being a very fast learner up to that point).

DO however do spinning. All the awareness in the world is fantastic, as is the theory, but it can't beat having been there. I wouldn't necessarily wait until the PPL is complete, but would make sure you're a good way along the track, and really comfortable in the aircraft - to better be able to appreciate what's going on.

I personally REALLY doubt that anyone finding themselves in a spin with only the instructions and no practical experience will come up with a useful response before the ground intervenes. And yes, the spin off final turn will kill you, no matter how good your recoveries are. It's not just about the recovery, but about calibrating your mind to what happens, and what it takes to enter a real spin - I personally don't believe incipients cut it, they're a little too canned, and you're 'cognitiviely primed' to expect it. The sort of abuse required to unintentionally generate a spin would suggest sufficient distraction that I'd doubt the ability of the pilot to suddenly snap to, recognise and correct the incipient.

I'd also recommend sticking to a representative type - I can confirm from (limited) experience that spinning/recovery an extra (for example), is a rather different experience to a typical GA type like a Robin (my regular spin-buddy). Sure fly the hot ship, it's a bundle of fun, but I'd question the learning merit.

P.S. That's another spinable type for you if you can find one - Robin 2160.

[Lightning6]

Spin recovery in the UK is, as we all know, is not included in the PPL course, It used to be in my day, and gave me a lot of confidence. I think the envelope of the aircraft you are flying should be second nature to you, I agree, if you are in the circuit, you've no chance, but there is a possibility that you could find yourself in that position in IMC conditions, you will need to react immediately, and you can only do that through training....I recommend spin recovery training as soon as you get your PPL.

[Runaway Gun]

If you are interested or curious about spinning, then getting an hour or two of spinning lessons in another type of aircraft will not upset your training. You will not suddenly become a rated Extra/Yak/T67 pilot with incorrect checklists imprinted in your brain.

After having a few spins demonstrated by a competant instructor, and then learning the correct methods of recovery and both the incipient and fully developed spins - you will have more confidence with stalls, steep turns and manoeuvering in the glide. If done now, before the end of your PPL, it would not harm your training. In fact, it might help it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

pilot DAR do you know by chance if the DA-20 katana is cleared for spinning as spin recovery is mentioned in the handbook but doesnt say if its cleared or not ????:E

Apologies for not being pilot_DAR but anyhow; so far as I know the DA-20 is certified against JAR-VLA (now known as CS.VLA) which requires a spinning assessment during flight testing (and hence advice in the POH) but doesn't normally permit a clearance for deliberate spinning. So, unless anybody knows better, the answer's no.

Non aerobatic spinning clearance programmes are fairly cursory - maybe 60-80 spins in total, and whilst basic safety will have been assured, I'd not attempt to spin the aircraft off the back of one without treating it as another flight test programme.


Re: the original question, before it went belly-up, Old Sarum Flying Club had a couple of Bulldogs and some ex-test pilots on the staff who could do some excellent spinning instruction (I did my last refresher there in one of them, and got excellent value for money). I'm not sure either the pilots or specific instructors are there now so I'd try something like a Tomahawk or Super Cub at Thruxton with, if he's available, somebody like Bob Cole, who is also a test pilot (and a difficult blighter, but that doesn't stop him being a superb instructor).

G

[bingofuel]

I thought the PA 38 was no longer cleared for spinning, after it was found to have some 'interesting' attributes whilst recovering.
ie sometimes wouldn't recover with SSR or recovered into a spin in the opposite direction! (Very susceptible to the slighest aileron input during recovery)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just rumour control I think - it scared a few people, so stories start to circulate.

G

[usedtofly]

Right, first up, hard hat on!

I think that there are a few too many 'look at me' hero's on here. It does not matter a jot how well an aeroplane spins after 3 or 4 turns, recovery is still possible with enough height.

It is VITAL to be on intimate terms with recognising the incipient stage and being able to prevent a spin from developing.

Spin with height......you live!.........................Spin on base turn.......you die!

It is as simple as that.

I agree that at some stage in their training some students may wish to 'have a look' at spinning, but I can not agree that knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin is of any use at all (at least not in a fairly modern benign trainer type of a/c).

You have to be doing something really foolish to get a modern a/c to spin these days, and if that means you spin at low level then knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin will not save you. If you do something stupid at high level and enter a full spin then close the throttle and let go of the controls!

You do not have to break a leg to know that it WILL hurt. It is the same for spinning, you do not HAVE to do it to know that it can kill you.

My advice to the original poster would be not to worry too much about learning how to spin and recover, but focus on learning how to recognise the signs that lead up to a stall/spin and how to recover confidently and safely.

Fly safe :E

[Genghis the Engineer]

Right, first up, hard hat on!

I think that there are a few too many 'look at me' hero's on here. It does not matter a jot how well an aeroplane spins after 3 or 4 turns, recovery is still possible with enough height.

Personally, I thought everybody was quite sensible.

It is VITAL to be on intimate terms with recognising the incipient stage and being able to prevent a spin from developing.

Strikes me that there's no harm in seeing the spin also.

Spin with height......you live!.........................Spin on base turn.......you die!

Reasonable working rule, I'll grant you (ditto climbout after a go-around, which is an equal killer).

It is as simple as that.

I agree that at some stage in their training some students may wish to 'have a look' at spinning, but I can not agree that knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin is of any use at all (at least not in a fairly modern benign trainer type of a/c).

But it does give an understanding of what you're dealing with - the incipient stage being nonetheless more important as you say.

You have to be doing something really foolish to get a modern a/c to spin these days, and if that means you spin at low level then knowing how to recover from a fully developed spin will not save you. If you do something stupid at high level and enter a full spin then close the throttle and let go of the controls!

No, centralise them.

You do not have to break a leg to know that it WILL hurt. It is the same for spinning, you do not HAVE to do it to know that it can kill you.

No, but it does no harm to know what it looks like.

My advice to the original poster would be not to worry too much about learning how to spin and recover, but focus on learning how to recognise the signs that lead up to a stall/spin and how to recover confidently and safely.

Fly safe :E

Yes, I agree - but I still see no good argument against an interested student experiencing a few spins.

G

[usedtofly]

Genghis...........

You have replied to my post in a balanced way and I am quite inclined to agree with you. There is certainly no harm in an interested student experiencing a few spins.I often used to demo/teach spin recovery to students who wanted to see it. I still maintain (of course!) that the real benefit is knowing how to avoid it in the first place!

:E

[Pace]

Used to fly

Many moons ago I used to race cars formula ford, Clubmans and a bit in formula 3.

It is only through driving the car beyond the limit that you can be comfortable driving the car on the limit. That is the only way you can fully appreciate what is happening and what is going to happen with the car. You knew that if the back broke away how far the tail could slide out before you lost it. You knew you could hold that point still in control. Not the fast way but a thorough understanding of how to extract the fastest lap time and to have the confience to do so.

I know a driver who considered himself to be ultra safe. He followed the speed limits had an excellent safety record, drove with care ......until.
One evening he hit a patch of ice, lost the car big time. He and his wife ended up in hospital for 3 months. He knew no better.

Its the same way with an aircraft! " Its only when you push the limits that you find what lies beyond" ! is a favourite saying which covers many aspects of life.

Obviously you do not want to achieve what you are learning to try to avoid ie killing yourself in an aircraft practicing how to avoid killing yourself. But in the right aircraft with the right instructor spin training should be done.

Infact a course in aerobatics is even better to allow you to fully understand what the aircraft can do and will make you a safer, more confident pilot.

We can train forever to the incipent stage with the idea that by doing so we will avoid the worst. The problem with that is the worst strikes when you least expect it and are least prepared for it the same as in a racing car.

There is an argument in twin flying to avoid full stalls the worry that by trying to recover adding differential power could cause a spin. Differential power either through mismanagement or one engine missing a beat.

With my examiner we take the twin high 8000-10000 feet and put it through its pace :)

Pace

[usedtofly]

Pace....

Sorry but I don't agree.

Also a few lessons in spin recovery will probably be a dim and distant memory when the time comes, and if low level......no use whatsoever!

Spin training and currency is vital if you are an aerobatic pilot, otherwise simply an interesting and academic exercise.

I know that if I drive (or fly) with my eyes shut, I will crash!....I don't need to try it tho'!!

:E

[Lurking123]

There are also the foolhardy out there who will try and replicate that which they have seen. Sometimes, it is best to point out that "there be dragons over there" and leave things at that. I would much prefer to spend an hour's worth of my student's money teaching him/her how to recognise the symptoms and recovery from incipient etc with maximum efficiency.

[Pace]

UsedtoFly

So you consider a red bull racing pilot or an experienced test pilot and an ordinary pilot both in the same type of aircraft stand the same chance of avoiding a spin or recovering from one if accidently entered into?

I agree with you that there have probably been more pilots lost practicing spins than having them for real. I also agree that the time you are most likely to have a spin is the time you are least likely to get out of it.

I do not believe you are a better pilot by limiting your knowledge on what your aircraft is capable of or can do.

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

It is worth asking at this point why your student is learning to fly?

Is it simply to be qualified to pole an aeroplane from A to B with minimal hassle, or to understand and participate in the joy of flying. The answer may strongly influence the way you want to treat their training in this regard.

G

[Lister Noble]

Lurkng and Used to Fly,I totally agree that it is more important not to spin than learn how to recover.
I wanted to see and feel what a spin was like,and if I had enough height,how to recover.
The entry into a spin is rather upsetting,at least now I would know what is happening and hopefully would remember how to get out of it.
I suppose the most important thing it taught me ,is how fatally dangerous a low level spin is and to never get near the conditions that would allow it.

One of my pals is an airline captain,he also flies a Pitts.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.

Lister:)

[eharding]

His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.

Lister:)

...and pretty much the first practical topic in a well-structured aerobatic course would be?

[Lurking123]

Lister, the entry to the spin is 'upsetting' because that is the way we intentionally enter a spin. An unintentional spin will probably be entered in a far more interesting manner. :)

Please, don't be put off finding someone to demonstrate a spin. I just don't see its significance to the average PPL student.

[bjornhall]

How one could accidentally, while not flying aeros, get a typical modern GA aircraft into a fully developed multi-turn spin is beyond me.

But getting into something slightly beyond incipient is another matter. Do an 'ordinary' stall, with a few less-than-usual or messed up aspects: Stall in a turn, rapid deceleration, power left on, some friends in the back seat, freeze on the controls for a second or two... Good idea? Probably not. Could happen? Def!

I read somewhere something being suggested as a "useful exercise": To fly the aircraft well into the stall, keeping the nose up with elevator, and practice keeping the wings level with the rudder. Great fun, as is the spectacular departure when you finally lose it... :ooh: :eek: :ouch: :E :} The result is of course not a developed spin, but a tad beyond the normal "recover at warner" type stall drill. I don't think I'll try that exercise again...

What my PPL spin training did for me is to give me more confidence when practicing stalls on my own. I know that even if I somehow make a big mess of it, to the point of actually getting into an incipient, I'm still in well known territory. I don't think I'd want to practice stalls alone, beyond the "recover at warner" stage, having not done spins.

[Lister Noble]

Bjorn,
Exactly.
That was one of the reasons I wanted to learn spins.
So I could practice stalls in the L4 on my own without worrying about an unintentional spin.
Lister:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Let's just stand back for a minute and consider when and why a PPL may encounter a spin.

The highest probability (IMHO) is from mishandling the controls at lower speeds, whilst one can provoke a spin from an accelerated stall, it's more likely that the base/final turn at low level will be the culprit.

Thus I support the initial approach that training should be focused on avoiding the stall that is a precursor to the spin.

That, at least in my thinking is the highest probability cause for lower houred pilots, so lots of slow flying (really controlling the aircraft close to the stall and recognising the visual picture, the different sounds and the 'feel; of the controls/buffet) and dealing with stalls and incipient spins to build recognition, avoidance and quick recovery would seem to make sense at first. This should include flying safe 'go arounds' to avoid departure stalls.

Once the PPL has gained some confidence and hours, then s/he will wish to start flying cross country journeys and exposing him/herself to new risks, such as taking aggressive avoiding action in the cruise and then may find themselves in a spin with enough altitude to recover.

At this stage, it seems sensible to at least understand the mechanics of how to set about recovering an aircraft that has departed, using a spin cleared aircraft (since obviously some types cannot be intentionally spun and you can't always practice on your usual mount.)

So spin (or areo) training seems to make sense at this stage.

Some people like eharding and Gorrilla obviosly get a kick out of it (good for you guys :ok:), some others (me included) don't like it - David Houl's description made me laugh, as it was close to the bone for me - but whatever one's perspective, it makes sense to get some training.

For me, its about sensible risk mitigation that changes with pilot experience and flight profile.

[Flyingcircusace]

Lister

One of my pals is an airline captain,he also flies a Pitts.
His advice was not to waste time and money on spinning, but to have some aero lessons.

Frankly this is ridiculous. Any Aerobatic pilot worth talking to will tell you that spinning familiarization is the core of any aerobatic flying. You cannot start flying ANY aerobatic maneuver without a good grounding in UA and spin recovery.

Being an Airline captain and owning a Pitts does not imply sensible advice. (This is being written by an airline pilot that has owned Pitts's)

Fly safe Get trained! Money spent on Spin training is not money wasted, but money invested in your future well being. (And that of your passengers)

I can attest that my Unusual Attitude and emergency spin recovery training that I received from Alan Cassidy at White Waltham many years ago, saved my life last year. Practicing for a display the aircraft departed into an unknown auto-rotation. The basic Emergency recovery technique taught to me, was the difference between being here and not.

Fcirc

[Pace]

fcirc :)

I think you misread what he meant. he was not saying dont do spin training but to really boost your confidence in the whole handling regime (including spins) take a course on aerobatics.

A bit like a car driver passing his driving test then investing in some skid pan training to become more confident in handling a car when it is not going straight and level :)

Sensible advice I would say.

Pace

[Lister Noble]

My pal,like most airline pilots did his time as an instructor and tells me he really enjoyed it.
He is not a flash character,his advice to me was well meaning and constructive, he thought I would get more from a combined aero course than just spinning.
I would think that his advice might have some relevance,not because he is a senior airline pilot,but because he has several thousands of hours in different aircraft including SEP's and cares for my flying safety.
Lister:cool:

[Zulu Alpha]

Well trust Mr Harding to bring food into the discussion, however he is correct, an empty stomach will make you feel queasy as will a very full one. About an hour after a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea is the best time to try aeros or spins if you want avoid feeling ill. Lots of fresh air also helps.

As far as spin training is concerned I would agree that a C152 Aerobat will allow you to experience a spin, but as you will lose 1000-1500 ft in a spin you will then spend 5 mins or more getting back up to height. Do it in an Extra, Pitts etc. and you will do just as many spins but in half the time so the cost will be similar.

I would also suggest asking for a spin while in a turn to be demonstrated. This is the sort of spin that will occur when turning from base to final where you use a bit too much rudder and a bit too much pull to try and get lined up and all of a sudden it lets go.
'Normal' spins are done from a straight ahead stall with rudder applied and are much less likely to be encountered during normal flying.

Not sure whether its best during the training or afterwards. I can't see that it would make a lot of difference.

[Flyingcircusace]

Lister

It was the phrase "waste time and money on spinning" that I just cannot agree with!! Yes an aero course is also a good investment, but any time and money invested in spin training is money well spent. I think it was the phrasing of the quote!! Its a chicken and egg situation, aeros and spin training. I think we all agree that the important thing is to get trained and enjoy it.....

Cheers

[Lister Noble]

Flyingcircus,
I think they may be my words interpretting what he said,anyway thank you for your input (in fact thank you all for words of wisdom):)
I am happier having done some spin training and as the Extra instructor said,
"Come back and try some aeros next time"
I hope to do some later this year.
Lister:)

[studen]

Since im new to this i think it may be fear of the unknown:eek:when it comes to spins so i think some spin training will be soon on the agenda! surely something that can save your life cant be wasted time or money. is it something thats included in CPL or FI training???:confused:

[BackPacker]

surely something that can save your life cant be wasted time or money.

studen, you need to read back the posts. Spin training does NOT save your life. What does save your life is training on incipient stall/spin recognition and recovery, and learning about typical stall/spin scenarios and how to avoid them.

People that get into a spin by accident are likely to do so at low level where all the spin training in the world is not going to buy you enough altitude to recover. You don't spin accidentally during cruise flight, at cruise altitude, unless you do something exceedingly stupid.

The only people that get into a spin these days are people that deliberately want to spin an aircraft, either because they are testing the aircraft to its limits, or because they're flying aerobatics.

Aerobatics in general improves your handling skills which is beneficial for normal flying. Of course. But the "spin recovery" portion of aerobatics is so far removed from normal flying that you really won't need that particular skill in normal flying. Doing very steep turns (75 degrees AoB = 4G) is arguably a better way of spending your time and money than spinning if all you want is to improve your straight and level flying skills.

I have recently taken two multi-1000 hour ATPLs up in the R2160 to show them what a spin looks like. They had never spun an aircraft during their entire careers. Does that make them less safe? I don't think so: they were perfectly able to recognize all the pre-stall/spin warnings and knew what avoiding action to take. We only spun the aircraft after we deliberately ignored all the warnings. (And yes, the R2160 is cleared for intentional spinning, and I've had extensive training in spinning it.)

[studen]

Cheers Backpacker like i said im new to this so any and all advice and comments are appreaciated:ok:

[TheGorrilla]

...and pretty much the first practical topic in a well-structured aerobatic course would be?

Never fly on an empty stomach!

No seriously, I can't believe an airline captain and Pitts owner would suggest that spin training is a waste of time, but go fly aeros instead!!! :{ Think someone has their wires crossed or said person is living on borrowed time.

[mad_jock]

Personally I think spin training can be a double edged sword.

One side of me reckons that an hours worth doesn't really teach you anything meaningfull to effect a timely recovery if you in one and save the day. But what it does do is allow you to recognise the moments before the spin and usually scares the hell out of you so that those moments are embedded deep in your sub concious. Its more a method of installing a third sense of what attitude not to go near.

The other side says there is a danger you can scare the student to much and their sub conscious starts injecting an unfounded fear that they are going to spin at any moment in normal flight. It effects the learning curve after that

Now should you go and pay money to visit another school?

6 of one and half a dozen to be honest. You could go and pay heaps for some ex red arrow to dazzle you or you could just get some normal aero's instructor to show you. Personally if I was tight for cash I wouldn't bother. If I was ok for cash I do a normal aero's instructor. If I was minted I would go for the red arrow option.

I used to spin the PA38 once or twice a month when I worked as instructor, was quite comfortable doing it. I now know I probably really didn't have much clue what was going on. Unless I go back to instructing I really don't think I will be spinning an aircraft again.

[Lister Noble]

My pal told me this after I had already done two sessions of spinning.:cool:

What the sessions did was to make me realise that an unplanned spin is not a place to be,and to make every effort not to get there!
But if I did ,with enough height I might have some chance of getting out of it.

I found that spins are unnerving,and I can understand why it was taken of the PPL syllabus.
Lister

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Surely it is irrelevant whether it is a spin? We should be looking at equiping a pilot to be prepared for any eventuality no matter how unlikely.

Not spinning would be akin to not stalling! you could get an aircraft to an incipient stage and then recover and never fully stall an aircraft.

Fear is usually based on the unknown lack of fear is based on knowledge experience and familiarity.

If you are a pilot who has spun many types of aircraft many times you have knowledge of the spin, you have familiarity with the spin and you have experience of the spin which = more confidence with your aircraft.

The biggest fear is not knowing. Spinning is just one part of the flight envelope. Make a pilot familiar and comfortable with aircraft handling in all its guises and you have to have a better pilot.

The biggest killer in any situation and where the pilot will loose the plot is panic. Be unfamiliar and lack confidence with spinning and should you ever get into one you then have that nasty ingredient called panic.

Maybe the word aeros should not be used. Maybe it should be an advanced handling course which includes spinning, fully developed stalls, devloped spiral dives, etc as well as a theoretical understanding of what is going on.

Lister Noble I can remember doing my first spin. I was scared. Then we did more spins until that fear became enjoyement. In fact once in the spin the spin is comfortable. Am I an aerobatic pilot who loves aeros NO. Would I have regretted not spinning a resounding YES. Do I have a better understanding of the spin becuase of it YES. Would that training help me in an inadvertant real spin situation probably YES.

For me a spiral dive is a far more daunting exercise and one where you can easely break the plane. Not only is it uncomfortable with G forces but fast with the chance of going beyond VNE. What do you do there avoid that training too? In the end what would we have left and what sort of pilots ?

Spins back in the early days of aviation were used as a means of controlled descent through cloud in aircraft with no instrumentation.

Pace

[mad_jock]

Well I can see your reasoning.

To be honest I think the way things are is fine if the person wants to go spinning they can and if they don't they don't.

Each person is different as has been said before the phase of flight which the pilot is most likely to encounter the conditions that a spin is possible is in the approach phase. And if they do manage to do all the wrong things and enter a spin it doesn't really matter who is driving the thing they are dead.

And as for the train for every situation its not going to happen in the time scales and to be honest most of the sutble aspects of flying you really need to revisit once you have a few hours of experience under your belt.

Personally I believe that if you teach the very basics properly ie attitude flying (and not this yank nonsense of looking at your instruments all the time), trimming, lookout and being smooth on the controls . This does more for preventing inadvertent spin entry than fannying about in unusual attitudes.

And I can't see how you can equip them for every eventuality the last 3 times I had to declare the problem wasn't in the QRH I had to make something up. What you can do though is give them very firm foundations with the core skills which they can build upon later.

And lister go and do some spinning in a glider its whole heap slower but they are mad bastards and do it bloody close to the ground and through clouds. I didn't mind the clouds to much but had a bit of a bum clentcher when the instructor spun it at 2000ft which to them it was high, to me who usually spun a tomahawk it was 4000ft to low.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

Interesting discussion! I touched on spiral dives that could warrant a discussion too as being an uncomfortable manouvre which holds risk but one which is taught and put up with if unpleasant.

I read an article called "beyond VNE" Obviously not an area that pilots usually operate in willingly.

It was not the speed itself which broke the aircraft but the pilot inputs yet in pilots minds VNE conjures up a point where the aircraft will explode :)

in the said article they recommended dropping the gear rather than control inputs to slow the aircraft down even though the speed would be well over the gear speed. How many pilots would consider that rather than trying to pull out of the dive at very high speed? Yet it could save your life.

We can all be taught to fly to the expected it when we go out of that safe boundary that our descisions right or wrong determine the outcome.

Added this snippet :)

"In an emergency, the landing gear may be used to create additional drag. Should disorientation occur under instrument conditions, the lowering of the landing gear will reduce the tendency for excessive speed build-up. This procedure would also be appropriate for a non-instrument rated pilot who unavoidably encounters instrument conditions or in other emergencies such as severe turbulence."
"Should the landing gear be used at speeds higher than the maximum extension speed [145 KIAS], a special inspection of the gear doors in accordance with shop manual procedures is required, with repair as necessary."


Beechcraft is telling us is that, at unusual airspeeds, we will start losing the wings before landing gear components (except for the gear doors) if the gear is lowered at airspeeds in excess of 145 KIAS. Easy enough to complete a flight safely with a bent gear door (just leave the gear down, please). Not so easy to complete a flight missing parts of the tail.

In a V35 in a 30-degree descent, if you chop the power and drop the gear you'll decelerate to 153 KIAS (0.9 Vno) at a 7,753 fpm descent rate. Leave the gear up and the power in and you'll be flying at 256 KIAS (1.3 Vne / 1.17 Vd) and descending at 13,000 fpm. Add full power and you'll be at 270 KIAS (1.4 Vne / 1.24 Vd) and hurtling downward at 13,700 fpm

Pace

[Lister Noble]

Glider ,great idea,I had a lesson last year at, Tibbenham which is half a mile for our airstrip and really enjoyed it.
The really strange thing is I almost forgot it had no engine,we flew to a speed using attitude and then I did steep turns and stalls,as long as I kept the speed correct it was just like flying the L4 Cub,well almost:)
Lister

[mad_jock]

You will find almost all engineering systems are exactly the same when it comes to control application and rate there of. The control stability and also peak strain is related to rate of input.

My type has a Vmo of 230knts and its got nothing to do with the wings falling off. I think they were tested to 500knts but you get supersonic shock waves coming off the props at 320knts and the limiting factor is the front windows which BAe cocked up the testing of firing segulls at them so we are stuck with 230knts in the UK compared to 250knts in the rest of the world. And the one thing that never breaks is the sodding overspeed alarm. I so I for one will not be chucking the gear out because we are 20knots to fast.

I agree spiral dives are not very pleasant if they are developed to far and the controls are used agriculturally. But again it comes back to flying with attention to the correct attitude. Even the recovery can be horrible or a none event. Gash hard handling feels wrong, smooth reduction of power plus carb heat,while rolling in the level wings, when level gradual increasing back pressure followed by gradual release of said pressure as the tail begins to do its job. Then smooth in with the power when the nose is back at the correct attitude and the aircraft is back at level flight, give it a minute to make sure the carb heat has done its job and jobs a good one. All the problems with G stalls and the like are taken care of by the way the controls are handled.

There was only one exercise when I made the students use sharp control inputs and that was the roll in to steep turns. In my view it is an emergency avoidance exercise and a such all the benefit you have gained by looking after your aircraft the other 99.9% of the time is well used if you don't hit anything.

[Pace]

My type has a Vmo of 230knts and its got nothing to do with the wings falling off. I think they were tested to 500knts but you get supersonic shock waves coming off the props at 320knts and the limiting factor is the front windows which BAe cocked up the testing of firing segulls at them so we are stuck with 230knts in the UK compared to 250knts in the rest of the world. And the one thing that never breaks is the sodding overspeed alarm. I so I for one will not be chucking the gear out because we are 20knots to fast.

Mad Jock

What is your type? I fly Citations and it is usual to descend with speeds close to VNE in smooth air. As such it is also prone to the overspeed reminding you that your on it :)

I feel the article was more directed at a serious dive after loss of control.
If you look at the Bonanza figures regarding speeds and descent rates it is easy to see the argument for dropping the gear and avoiding not being able to pull out of the dive.

Pace

[mad_jock]

The mighty Jetstream 31/32 negative auto pilot clockwork instruments, built like a brick **** house. And the overspeed alarm is bloody loud you can hear it in the rear row of seats.

But a pilots aircraft to fly and I think they are great fun.

I know what you mean about the article but if you just do the obvious things smoothly and efficiently you can deal with truly horrendous unusual attitudes without pulling the wings off. As long as there is still airflow over the control surfaces you should be able to sort it without breaking anything.

[JBGA]

I always said that fear keeps aviators alive. Fear prevents (Or goes some way towards preventing) people from doing things they really shouldn't. However, you need to have the necessary skills and experience to be able to react correctly when something frightening happens otherwise you panic or just cover your eyes and wait for it to stop (The latter can be quite and effective recovery technique in many aircraft!!)

I agree with what has been said earlier about the training emphasis being on preventing the situation developing in the first place. Typical non-aerobatic aircraft are stable enough that they don't roll over and die. When spinning for example there is a whole process to go through before the spin is properly developed. If you've let it get that far you have already ignored a whole host of very obvious warning signs and uncomfortable sensations so you're unlikely to know what to do to recover.

However, by virtue of being a glider pilot for many years I have a fair amount of experience in spinning, spiral dives etc. including excercises where you cover your eyes whilst the instructor initiates the manouver and then hands over to you to recover (With eyes open of course!!). Also demonstrations of an incorrect recovery actions and how to correct the mistake. Having explored the extremities of the aircraft's performance I feel confident enough to practise stalls/spins etc. every now and then just to remind myself what the sensations are like.
Although I wouldn't argue that any of this is strictly necessary for your average PPL pilot I am very glad to have the extra strings in my bow and would recomment it to anyone.

re Vne, I was always told it is much better to exceed Vne in a straight dive than pull hard on the controls to avoid the overspeed. At Vne you are already some way above Vmo so the likelyhood of something falling off when you pull hard on the stick is much higher.

[Pace]

re Vne, I was always told it is much better to exceed Vne in a straight dive than pull hard on the controls to avoid the overspeed. At Vne you are already some way above Vmo so the likelyhood of something falling off when you pull hard on the stick is much higher.

JBGA

Without doubt it is far better to be taught to avoid stalls, spins, spiral dives etc.

One thing I have found out in aviation is these things come up and bite you when you least expect them to.

In a previous post i explained how I nearly landed a twin gear up probably 2 feet from hitting the props yet I had it well ingrained to avoid that ever happening.
Luckely in that situation I reacted like lighting.

It is when we are distracted or dealing with other problems that the big one happens and as with the stall, spin, spiral situation. Although we may be taught to avoid till the cows come home there may come a time when we need the knowledge and skills of actually having experienced those conditions.

As you said you are glad of the training and I am sure there cannot be an arguement that a pilot so trained is not better equipt should the full thing ever happen to him no matter how unlikely.

Regarding VNE dives and I am talking about a situation where there is high speed and not a lot of airspace to recover in dropping the gear (if you have it :) can save your life.

Pace

[djpil]

When spinning for example there is a whole process to go through before the spin is properly developed but it can happen extremely quickly and you need to experience an unintentional spin entry from a turn to really understand why it is vital to understand and practice the approaching stall recognition and avoidance principles. It is also vital not the scare the student so when and how are important considerations for any individual.
The Pilot's Lounge #131: Spin Training (http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/pilots_lounge_131_spin_training_198962-1.html)
I don't mind scaring instructor students however - if they haven't experienced it by the time they do their instructor training then they will experience it on the spin session that I do with them. It can easily take two rotations for them to stop the gyrations amidst the swearing after realizing that I (playing his student) have suddenly "lost control" - he had seen turns like this many times before and didn't identify the subtle signs of the imminent stall in this situation. Its not in the PPL syllabus. He had seen lots of stalls from straight flight with plenty of time to patter on the symptoms of the approaching stall. He wasn't expecting it as the pre-flight brief only covered normal spin entries and we'd just done lots of those so he was familiar with the normal process to get it into a fully developed spin.

In the debrief I often get "Does that happen often?" and the answer is "Usually only once in your lifetime."

[Mark1234]

re Vne, I was always told it is much better to exceed Vne in a straight dive than pull hard on the controls to avoid the overspeed. At Vne you are already some way above Vmo so the likelyhood of something falling off when you pull hard on the stick is much higher.I find that interesting - I've been taught exactly the opposite:

I am given to understand that under JAR regs (and I suspect this will vary by aircraft category), the aircraft has to withstand a 50% overstress in G-loading for 30 sec, and still fly (you may not be able to re-use the airframe, and it may completely expire at 31 sec). The testing for velocity requires that the aircraft is flown to the maximum design dive speed, and Vne is set 10% lower.

Therefore you have (loosely speaking) a 10% margin on Vne, and a 50% margin on G. I'm also told that flutter is the likely limitation beyond Vne, and onset is rapid, and rapidly destructive. Obviously this is likely to be somewhat airframe dependant.

I'm also interested regarding V*m*o - I presume that's more applicable for a/c that also have mach limitations / Mmo - it's not a number I've ever found defined for anything I've flown.

[bjornhall]

a 50% margin on G.

... which is your gust load margin. If you use up that for maneuvering and hit even a minor gust... :\

[Piper.Classique]

Thanks for that link to the pilot's lounge. A lot of interesting things are coming out in this thread. I used to be an FI, and I fly gliders and instruct on three axis microlights, so I can relate to a lot of peoples experiences here. The more I think about this, the more convinced I am that ALL pilots should be able to recover from a full spin, and a spiral dive, before their formal training is completed. The first time to see either one is not on your own, or even worse, with your unsuspecting friends on board. The point at issue for me is not if, but when.
Any thoughts?

[Karl Bamforth]

I agree that incipient awarness is OK if low speed is the only way to get into a stall.

What about a violent change of direction to avoid another aircraft, flying through the jetwash of a mil jet or even inadvertant entry into IMC. all can result in a spin with little or no time to do anything about it.

Another thing is those unknown corners of the operating envelope.

A Grob115E will not actually stall in the classic sense (G break) when entered the normal way. It simply sits nose high with a high sink rate.
But leave power on, bank left or right and pull, leaves you with a spectacular and interesting full spin entry.

Of course it being a Grob if you release the controls it will return to its normal business of aviation almost as quick.

In the end it comes down to personal preference. I am glad I did spin training and refresh it every year with an instructor. I find it great fun, it seems to speeds up my reaction time and gives me more confidence in both what the aircraft and I can do when required.

[Final 3 Greens]

Any thoughts?

Yes, I very much doubt that the average student would learn much more than 'monkey see, monkey do' during their PPL and wonder how desirable this is at that stage of the training, apart from over confident types, who may (or may not) learn that SEPs can bite hard.

Training later on makes sense to me, as it is easy to depart during avoiding action in the cruise and other scenarios.

Totally agree with the spiral dive recovery, since these are easy to get into and potentially destructive.

[Mark1234]

... which is your gust load margin. If you use up that for maneuvering and hit even a minor gust... http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/wibble.gif

Ok, perhaps I wasn't properly clear.

The aircraft has posted limits - If it's certified to 4g, you fly no more than that *including* allowances for gusts. I.e. if it's bumpy you do not manouver at 4g. Anything over that is an overstress, and is treated as such.
Same goes for Vne. They're hard limits.

I don't know the logic behind the certification requirements, I may be able to make guesses, but I won't - I'm certain however that it's not to allow you a gust margin. Bear in mind that the aeroplane can be irrevocably bent and still pass the test. (oh, and I'm wrong, it's 3 seconds, not 30.

The scenario was that if you're in a whole heap of trouble, heading down fast (assume you're going to break something, and it's no longer possible to stay within the envelope), what is most appropriate?

I think the answer is probably that it depends on the aircraft - seems some aircraft are more artificially limited by things like local mach effects etc (e.g. mad_jock's ride), however others (particularly lower speed aircraft) are going to be limited by high speed aerodynamic effects like flutter. G induces drag, which is a good way of slowing things down. I'm not suggesting that any load is applied abruptly, or carelessly - as we all know, the faster you're going, the more capacity you have to overload the thing.

[Windrusher]

I'm tempted to endorse, in all seriousness, Mad Jock and Lister Noble's suggestions about spinning in a glider...
And lister go and do some spinning in a glider its whole heap slower but they are mad bastards and do it bloody close to the ground and through clouds.
Glider ,great idea,I had a lesson last year at, Tibbenham which is half a mile for our airstrip and really enjoyed it.
... noting, though, that most of us aren't as mad as MJ suggests!

Until I'd spun a glider properly, and despite all the incipient spin training, I was always somewhat apprehensive of low-speed flight. No bad thing, perhaps, but it was a nagging niggle that I was much happier without. What counted for me was to do the full spinning exercises in an aircraft that positively required my recovery - most recent gliders will barely spin at all and recover more or less by themselves. So there was nothing over-ambitious or gung-ho about this; rather the opposite, and it made me a much happier pilot. Of course, it can also whet your appetite, and I subsequently enjoyed a happy summer of incompetent dual aeros while we had access to a suitable aircraft!

Spin training is a more regular part of training in gliding than in light aviation, so finding a club and instructors that can take you through the very well developed syllabus (including examples of 'non-aerobatic' entries) shouldn't be hard. My advice would be to find a club that can aerotow you to 4000' in an aircraft that will spin properly (the Puchacz is excellent). Gliders have more inertia in roll, so spinning isn't as rapid/violent as in light aircraft, though the idea's the same.

Oh, and definitely fly on a full stomach. I wouldn't necessarily go for a greasy full English, but a belly comfortably full of something settling definitely helps me!

Windrusher

[JBGA]

but it can happen extremely quickly and you need to experience an unintentional spin entry from a turn to really understand why it is vital to understand and practice the approaching stall recognition and avoidance principles.

I couldn't agree more. But there are ALWAYS warning signs.

I remember vividly an occasion I was flying an old wooden glider really slowly in a gusty thermal at about 1000ft and within an instant the thing was banked hard over standing on it's wingtip and the nose dropping below the horizon. The reaction to ease the stick forward and apply opposite rudder was instantaneous and instinctive. I have often wondered whether, without the benefit of experience, my first instinct in this sudden unexpected situation would have been to try pulling the nose back up and correct the roll with aileron.

But the real point is that the warning signs were there long before the unintended manoeuver occurred. I was flying very slowly, in a turn, in gusty air. My brain had already registered that it was the perfect recipe for a spin so I was subconciously already expecting it to happen. I just can't see how I could have gained that instinctive behavior without experiencing it over and over again.

[bjornhall]

The scenario was that if you're in a whole heap of trouble, heading down fast (assume you're going to break something, and it's no longer possible to stay within the envelope), what is most appropriate?

Yes exactly, so let's get back to that. And what I'm saying in that regard, is that if you are in that situation, you do not want to use up the 50 % margin between design load factor and ultimate load factor to try and pull out of a dive, since that means you will exceed ultimate if you encounter a gust.

Btw, there is a lot about gust loads and gust margins, at least in FAR 23 (and therefore, I suppose, in JAR 23...). Not sure about CAR 4 ... But I'd be interested in those 3 seconds at 50% overstress? I don't understand how you could design something against such a limit, nor how you'd show compliance... And my understanding is that the airframe should be able to withstand a 50% overstress indefinitely.

Reading, in detail, and fully understanding FAR 23 has been on my to do list for a long time... Maybe it's about time to do it! :8

But we might be straying off topic...

[TheGorrilla]

Well in the northern hemisphere I'd spin to the left, In the southern hemisphere I'd spin to the right.....

There we go, thread back on track....

[Mark1234]

You're talking tosh mate, we spin upside down and left - it just *looks* like it's to the right to you northies :E

[mad_jock]

Windrush the more I see of the training of glider pilots the more professional I think it is compared to regulated instruction.

The incremental auth's for the instructors as they learn the art of instructing. Also how the student is gradually given more rope to allow them to make decisions as their experience progresses.

I have very few glider hours but I intend to resolve this issue this year. Anyway I owe the CFI of the Royal Deeside a slab of red for an Indiscretion in a powered fixed wing. :\ and it would be rude to drive all that way and not do the weeks gliding course.