BA jet landing incident at LCY

[fergusd]

Looks like the plane lost a nose wheel or whole nose gear on landing, stopped on the runway and looks like all off safely, still on the runway, nose on the ground, as I type from aircraft which was ready to depart.
Fd

[BAladdy]

A similiar incident happend around the 4th/5th Feb. That incident involved a RJ100 landing into LCY ex GLA. On that occasion the airfield was closed for over a hour. No one was hurt in that incident

[racer09]

This was coming in from AMS I believe.

[llondel]

LCY appears to be very challenging to get right, what with the interesting approach, short runway and all that water waiting for those who stray too far. How many bent aircraft has it had? There was the high-profile 146 that got floated over to the other side of the dock for repairs, and I remember a few more.

[Longhitter]

llondel,

That's scaremongering. I would be surprised if the number of incidents was higher in LCY as opposed to other London airports due to stricter windlimits etc. The runway might be short and the glidepath steeper, that doesn't mean that it's not certified like all other strips of concrete and tarmac.

[llondel]

Longhitter:

I don't think it's scaremongering. The steeper glidepath probably magnifies small errors due to the descent rate, leading to more bits of bent metal. I'd expect LHR/LGW to have more incidents because they have more traffic, but that isn't the perception I get, not that PPRuNe is going to report everything. However, something upsetting LHR traffic is likely to get noted on here somewhere, simply because it affects a lot more people.

[Feathers McGraw]

I've been in and out of LCY a few times as SLF, back in the late 90s. It never felt scary, but the view out the front of the aircraft (FD door left open) was always interesting on short finals. The runway threshold was a long way up the screen until the flare was started.

[overstress]

BA City Flyer. Not mainline BA. It's a wholly owned subsidiary.

[silverelise]

Pictures on BBC News 24. Looks very sorry for itself in the dark, nose down, with the slides deployed. No reports of any injuries at this stage.

[belleh]

BBC NEWS | UK | BA jet in airport 'hard landing' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7889727.stm)

Has one picture at the moment. One or two minor injuries only.

[Vertical Speed]

As an ex 146 driver (5500 hrs on type but not in Europe) my memories are that it had the most forgiving main undercarriage but that the money must have run out when it came to the design of the nose gear.
One needed to be very careful to fly the front of the aircraft gently to the ground after MLG touchdown! Having also been a sim instructor for other types training for LCY it is easy to see how the "NLG delicacy" in conjunction with the steep glidepath could be problematic!

[daikilo]

LCY is an approved airport for approved aircraft. Occasional incidents will happen.

[virginblue]

Pictures from the scene right here:

http://www.pprune.org/4717382-post395.html

[dixi188]

BBC 10 o'clock news has report, but why don't they say it was British Airways.
Is this PC or something?

[GBALU53]

Must not speculate about turbulence and wind shear, we do understand landings at the City are difficult even in conditions like tonight.

The 2150 actual weather shows as calmish wind and good vis

EGLC 132150Z VRB03KT CAVOK 02/01 Q1026=

Well done to all the crew in doing the evacuation safely.

[NIGELINOZ]

Perhaps not surprisingly the aussie media are calling it a "Crash landing" !
Airliner crash lands in London | World Breaking News | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25053010-23109,00.html)

By that I mean it's what I have come to expect from the media,not that it should be correctly described as that.

[acmech1954]

I noticed that the inboard lift spoilers are still deployed, which is odd because they should close automatically when the aircraft loses the no 1 ( I think) hydraulic system, the outer 2 (closed) are run by other system. Just an observation.

[egnxema]

Anyone got the Reg involved - was it the same aircraft that suffered the burst tyre last week?

[TAP]

Pay as you go FO? :)

[marlowe]

hardly its a left seat landing only at LCY

[HKLCY]

Aircraft involved was G-BZAW.

[banana9999]

BA City Flyer. Not mainline BA. It's a wholly owned subsidiary.

Oh right. So it's not BA then? Is that right? Do they wholly own their "mainline" aircraft? What is mainline anyway, do they run a train service? What is the point you are making?
To 99.99999% of the world's population it is BA and they are correct. Look, tt even says so on the aircraft and it even has a little BA logo on it too, just like the big big big planes they have.

[PaddyMcGinty]

Correct, Captain's can only land in LCY, if they're flying RJs or 146s anyway.

Also, if there was any uncertainty about the hydraulic systems, they would have diverted to Stansted or Heathrow. You can't land in LCY without all lift spoilers serviceable, which require green and yellow hydraulics, so I don't think it was a hydraulic fault.

You have to be quick with the flare and today there was varying winds and several runway changes. I flew into LCY shortly before the BA flight and we had a tailwind on the approach. The surface wind was quite calm so the approach speed was quicker than usual. You have got a very small gap to flare in order to touch down before the white lights. With the higher speed today and the steep approach, you really had to be on the ball. If you don't get it your going to land on the nose.

[Dream Buster]

I used to fly 146's into LCY and found it extremely challenging and even quite a hit and miss affair due to the unconventional flare required.

For me it was either spot on or a big bang and an 'arrival'.

I had to stop flying in 2005 due to 'chronic stress' but I had my blood and fat tested about a year later and highly abnormal amounts of chemicals were found plus we ALL had significant cognitive dysfunction - as did 26 other 146 & 757 pilots who were tested at the same time.

Scientific Reports - Aerotoxic Association - Support for Aerotoxic Syndrome Sufferers (http://www.aerotoxic.org/categories/20081027)

Maybe it would be worth checking the blood and fat of this crew to see if they had the same problem that we all did?

The net effect is to make one feel intoxicated and misjudge difficult landings etc.

When will the AAIB understand that checking the pilots blood and fat is just as important as all the other factors that they measure so precisely?


DB :cool:

[dghob]

Nigelinoz - that's a bit harsh on our Aussie media mate! Only this morning I got the following from Bigpond online news:

British Airways passenger jet carrying 67 passengers and 4 people has crash-landed at London City Airport on Friday evening, officials said. All were evacuated safely.

I'm not sure what the 67 passengers were but obviously not people. Something funny going on here.

Wait a minute .... Bigpond news is Aussie media isn't it? As you were saying Nige....

cheers
dghob

[darren6012]

On Sky News the Aircraft is G-BXAR - Is it the same as last weeks?

[wings1011]

The aircraft this evening at LCY did leave Ams and it was
G-BXAR it could clearly be seen in the CNN film/picture
The AR registartion above the cockpit window is easy to spot

Wings 1011

[PaddyMcGinty]

Dreambuster,

26 pilots out of how many? That number could make all the difference.

[5Papa]

Apparently the guys had a certain abnormality with the gear which made them decide to go for a 'short field (positive) landing'. This ended up in a bad landing on which the nosegear hit the ground very hard, and it collapsed.

[PaddyMcGinty]

Steep approach + short field means if you have any gear abnormality, you go elsewhere. If they did and decided to make an approach due to some sort of "get-home-itus" then that was a very bad decision. It's just not worth it in LCY.

[grundyhead]

Another hard landing at LCY...OUCH!

YouTube - Hard landing near crash London City Airport - Bad Heavy turbulence windshear - Schwere Turbulenzen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcS89Ktbxeo)

[Pera]

I'd consider it a crash if it can't leave the runway under it's own steam.

[Old Fella]

Paddy, a decision based on "Get-home-itus" is a bad decision anytime, not just at LCY

[Lord Lucan]

NIGELINOZ
Perhaps not surprisingly the aussie media are calling it a "Crash landing" !

If the gear collapses on landing, and the airplane blocks the runway, then crash landing would seem to be an honest description of the event to me. What's the problem?

This is obviously a bit more than a "heavy landing", where the g-meter shows out of limits, and perhaps there is a rubber jungle down the back.

I am not usually much of a supporter of the media or journalists efforts when reporting aviation matters, but this seems fair.

[Dream Buster]

Paddy,

UCL tested 27 pilots and all 27 pilots had the same problems.

A 100% hit rate.

Normally one might expect everybody (pilots and cabin crew) to have their blood / fat checked, but in the world we live in the study was stopped abruptly.

Does everybody agree that it is not unreasonable to check the pilots blood / fat for contaminants after such an incident?

I can assure you, the AAIB do not agree.

By the way, I am totally on the pilots side.

DB :ok:

[Kystflygar]

Looks like an accident to me.

[Expressflight]

WARNING

The link posted at 0816 contains a virus.

[One9iner]

All,

Do not click on "Ichatfilipinas" link .. by the time I realised what his/her name spelt and where the link took me it was too late. Corrupt trojan file swiflty deleted.

Mods; can this user be deleted and blocked please. :ugh:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Already done! And user banned.

[DutchBird-757]

The aircraft had NO problems during the approach and landing. AFTER landing the nosegear collapsed for whatever reason that is now under investigation.

[racer09]

It was AR and it did have 5 crew onboard.

It was AW that had the nosegear "issue" last week.

[2604]

hardly its a left seat landing only at LCY

Uncorrect. I flew for a company where the right seat was also trained and approved to land and was doing the landing at EGLC

[racer09]

BACF policy is that it's Captains only to land at LCY, to clear that one up. FOs practise landings in the sim for LCY but that's all.

MikeStanton - see above, they were not the same aircrafts. :ugh: Your statement is completely incorrect and makes it look like the guys on the ground haven't done their job correctly, when at this early stage there is nothing to suggest that.

[5150]

I've seen plenty of guys run out of talent going into LCY - some just get away with it . . .

[Atreyu]

Care to qualify that statement? Or are you PPRUNE's very own AAIB? You don't know the facts, and if any of the gentlemen from the gutter press are trawling on here for nuggets then that is gold, so do us all a favour. . .

Atreyu:ok:

[XT668]

While the RJ100 is certified for LCY, I understand it's right on the borderline. Very very challenging approach and landing, not for the faint of heart, give me Innsbruck, Chambery, Funchal, night Corfu anytime!:ooh:
Interesting comment about it not being 'mainline' though, as there's lots of 'mainline' pilots actually fly the thing. There clearly remains a "Plastic BA versus Platinum BA" feeling, that's such a pity.:ugh:

[MikeStanton]

MikeStanton - see above, they were not the same aircrafts. :ugh: Your statement is completely incorrect and makes it look like the guys on the ground haven't done their job correctly, when at this early stage there is nothing to suggest that

Yes I stand corrected.

[False Capture]

Interesting comment about it not being 'mainline' though, as there's lots of 'mainline' pilots actually fly the thing.
Not really, there's only a few mainline pilots left flying the RJ100 as most have now returned to Heathrow and Gatwick.

[Flintstone]

For the benefit of the press trawling for quotes and those who have never actually piloted an aircraft into LCY can we lay off the dramatics? Phrases like "Very very challenging" and "...not for the faint of heart..." might look good in print but are just sensationalist nonsense.

Challenging? Not really, perhaps a little more attention needs to be paid but that's all providing you've had the right training. Not for the faint of heart? The ECG at my medicals over the years all seemed fine.

Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

[ROSCO328]

Landed at Hms Lcy twice everyday at my old outfit (righthand seat). Same applies to it as to the rest just configure earlier and job done. Still always wonder where they got their wind speed /directions from though??:ok:. Lets wait on the outcome of the investagation.

[B166LES]

At last some sense from Flintstone on this thread... SO MUCH RUBBISH AND SENSATIONALIST COMMENT from people suddenly professing to be pilots going into LCY. Get a grip. The RJ is the perfect aircraft for the job and it's been doing it for years. Captain only landing for BA Cityflyer - and it's simple: if you don't like what you're seeing then you go around.

Passengers coming forward to the press were the typical 'get a claim in', arm in a sling americans. Again, get a grip. Normal rate of decent is around 1000 ft/min on a steep approach so of course it feels faster with the ground rush - especially at night. Both incidents completely unrelated.

[goerring]

I repeat for the benefit of the deaf. BA City Express is not the same thing as BA
that is why I am trying to explain

overstress

if you really want to go down the us and them route then please be accurate BA City Express does not exist.

BA are quite happy for BA CityFlyer to appear to their customers as BA product 99.9% of the time , it would be mercenary to distance yourself today.

.... and what exactly are you trying to explain..... to the public.... that this sort of thing wouldn't happen to a BA aircraft with BA crew ?

You maybe have a short or selective memory

[fergusd]

Unbelievable twaddle . . .

I wrote the title of the thread, I am a passenger, you know, one of those fools that pays your wages . . .

The plane has British Airways written on the side in 4 ft high letters, so no matter what, it's BA to me and 99.9% of the people that matter and use the service . . . and book the flights on the ba.com website and all the other things that make it BA to more normally adjusted people.

Given I dot have the ownership documents of the plane to hand, what company would you think ran this plane . . .

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3277088547_ef66fa89ee.jpg?v=0

Let's just hope it was a non predictable mechanical failure, because if it was pilot error I'm sure myself and all the other thousands of fare paying passengers who spent hours and hours dealing with the complete ineptitude and utter incompetence of the airlines following the airport closure would like to see those responsible out of job and not congratulated . . . thanks to BA or whoever they really are you've cost us a load of money and time not to mention risking the lives of innocent passengers . . .

I guess we'll see what the AAIB report says with interest . . .

[Dream Buster]

Flintstone,

Please do professional pilots the courtesy of believing them if they say that flying into LCY is extremly challenging.

You might well be a superior aviator but many of us are just ordinary human beings who found it really hard work. (Regardless of whether ones brain was also cooked).

Personally I was always about a second ahead of the aircraft and putting an aircraft down on a spot in various weather conditions was a constant battle to get it 'right'.

From memory, it was a compulsory Go Around if you failed to touch before two lights - which would be a serious handfull from a very low altitude.

I am delighted at never having to land there again and if I were a passenger or Cabin Crew on an inbound to LCY I would recommend taking up the 'brace' position on each and every landing. Just in case.

I'm really sorry if it's been already advertised, but this 146 'landing' at LCY just about sums it up.


Beware, Brave aviators...LCY IS CHALLENGING.


DB :{

[B166LES]

The 318 operation at LCY will be nothing to do with Cityflyer and will be mainline. Cityflyer staff are paid by mainline, wear mainline uniforms, provide the BA service on board including club europe, sell the flights on ba.com and all have staff travel on BA.... In the public eye, it really is all viewed as 'BA'.

As for 'contracting out it's core business' :mad:

[wings1011]

Seems to have been a catastophic failure of the nose landing gear iaw latest news from reliable sources.Gear have apparently snapped in half more or less. it seems that has nothing to do with the handling of the aircraft or maintenance problems . Seems like they are doing a fleetwide inspection of all nosegears before next flight just to make sure.
It Has happened before on other types and due to that maintenance programs and/or inspections have been different or more frequently


Regards wings1011

[Flintstone]

Beware, Brave aviators...LCY IS CHALLENGING.


if I were a passenger or Cabin Crew on an inbound to LCY I would recommend taking up the 'brace' position on each and every landing. Just in case.

Weren't you nominated 'Best Drama Queen' at the BAFTA awards this year? :rolleyes:

Come off it. Follow the procedures, fully configure before the glideslope, maintain Vref + a safe margin for gusts over Greenwich Hill and the buildings, flare, wheels on before the lights, home in time for smoked kippers.

Seriously, on a good day with a following wind after eight hours sleep I'm average. I'm happy with average, I claim nothing more, but making LCY out as involving lots of hurtling, plunging, wrestling with the controls and narrowly avoiding orphanages and schools is just silly. It's a steep approach to a runway that's a bit on the short side which is why only certain aircraft types are certified for it. If they couldn't do it they wouldn't be there, likewise the crew.

What next? "Ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain. There's a light north-easterly with a few spots of rain at Heathrow this morning. WE'RE ALL DOOMED!"?

[Chuffer Chadley]

Flintstone

No need for that! LCY IS very challenging, from the top of glide to the completion of the landing roll. Anyone who says it isn't is fibbing.

I know that it is, because:

1) I land there regularly (RHS, not RJ/146).
2) I sit next to colleagues (in the LHS), and I can see that it's challenging to ALL of them, too.

Perfectly achievable, of course, but very challenging, nonetheless.

CC

[Flintstone]

Chuffer old fruit.

As one who has flown many LCY approaches from the LHS as PIC and the RHS as a LTC I can assure you it's not that dramatic.

If you're in the RHS I'd say your captains are putting it on to impress you and justify their extra pay. Do they scream in the flare too? ;)

[Otto Throttle]

If the RJ is a handful on occasion into LCY, then wait until BACF get the larger E-jet. It's nothing like so forgiving.

[swordsman]

I would say landing at LCY is an absolute doddle compared to Corcheval.

[Old Fella]

Could have sworn the aircraft clearly wore "British Airways" title painted on the fuselage. It is a British Airways aircraft and it did have a landing accident. Who cares if you call it a NLG failure on landing or a crash landing? The end result is a broken aircraft.

[Dream Buster]

Flintstone,

I would agree that it's incredible that there haven't been more nasties at LCY over the years, so yes - on balance it is 'just' OK.

BUT, it has a far steeper approach than usual with a subsequent unusual round out / flare at the bottom.

I have witnessed many misjudgments by 'average' pilots who get caught out. Me included. God help the not so talented....

I would always rather be roughly right than precisely.....wrong.

Flinstone, your language is certainly worthy of a BAFTA - would you like a nomination?

DB :{

[XT668]

CHALLENGING.

Yes it's challenging. The main reason it's challenging is that the RJ100 or BAe146-300 is just so much longer than the original concept build, which was the 146-100 or RJ75. If the flare angle is even slightly wrong then you run the risk of a tail strike - that's why for a period BA had PM monitoring the pitch angle and calling it out where necessary. The aircraft is marginal into LCY, and when conditions are gusty (i.e.often) it is much much worse. Don't even then consider the tail strike potential if the speed is wrong.
Anyone doubting this should watch a well handled arrival in perfect conditions and compare the tail clearance of an RJ touchdown to everything else. (One reason why I think the Emb will be better, even if it has much less flattering main gear.)
Having landed on the numbers, the spoilers generally then require a significant back pressure input to prevent the nose crashing down rather hard. Hmmm.
I will not shed a tear if I never have to land there again, horrid place, and yes, even worse than Courchevel, which has the best aid to acceleration and deceleration I know of!

[helldog]

Landed there once from the left seat. Was with an instructor approved to operate there and doing my first steep approach. It went very well. It seemed a comfortable flare, conditions were great though.

I must say though.....if I had that 'picture' a mile out even on a long runway at any other place I would go around. ahhh I mean I would take over from the f/o and go around:}

Look I cant say if it is a tough place to land because I only have one landing there.....but one thing is for sure it is a touch unusual. Thats why you need special training to do it.

[Croqueteer]

:ok: Used to cheat slightly. Into the reds at 100ft, then a normal landing! Never any probs. I think the biggest prob there with the 146 is a wet runway and max x-wind.

[marlowe]

XT668 have lost count of the number of times have been on a BACityflyer RJ where the nosegear slams into the ground on landing ,this is usually followed by the sound of the club glasses smashing in the front galley!!!!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Worth mentioning that on the same day HB-IYW operating SWR58T abandoned the 10 approach on finals and maintained 2000 ft into the overhead as the wind went out of limits, landed normally on the second attempt. Company SWR36R operated by HB-IYV "floated" in a gust as it flared and went around there. Twas one of those "challenging" days in the RJ100 I guess.

Incidentally, BA's G-BZAX and G-BZAY don't say BRITISH AIRWAYS down the side. Believe it or not they STILL have the old and forgotten BA CONNECT titles.

[TMAPAX]

I fly in and out of LCY daily, as a left hand driver.

Some of my landings have been harder than others. This is no different from when my f.o or my self have made positive touchdowns in ZRH or EDI for example.

You have enough time to judge where the t/d is going to be, so a g/a is possible with enough time. Of course, if needs be, touch down, power up and g/a. A g/a dosn't have to occur in the air.

I have made a few with a late touchdown, kept the speed up and went around at 0ft!

Every approach and landing is and should be challenging. If you are landing an aircraft with 100pax on board and not even thinking, "I need to concentrate on this and get it right" then I would be worried.

Airports like LCY keep the crews in top form.

..............................

Fridays accident was handled very well by all the airport staff.

The Airport Fire crews were there within minutes, as with the airport busses and so on. Staff were pulling passengers away from the plane in a very well organised way. An aircraft at a holding point near the runway had it's engines shut down very quickly.

I don't think we should forget, how close this could have become to being a "major" or "fatal" incident.

Regards,

[Flintstone]

I don't think we should forget, how close this could have become to being a "major" or "fatal" incident.

Well in your own words that's already two steps removed from actually becoming major or fatal but I'll bite and ask, exactly how was this so close to a major event? What would have to have happened in this instance for it to become either of those (although the latter would of course necessitate the former)?

[ROSCO328]

Of course, if needs be, touch down, power up and g/a. A g/a dosn't have to occur in the air

First of all I am not getting into a pecker swinging contest. This option may be available in a turbo prop, jets on the other hand may not have this option specifically at Lcy where a multitude of factors will be working against you i.e short field,full flap,speed brake, spoiler deployed and ofcourse the 5-8 second delay from idle to full power.

[JazzyKex]

It's been a while since I flew the 146, but one of it's advantages in LCY operations was the almost instantaneous power from the admittedly very underpowered ALF 502's.

It behaved almost like a turbo prop with regard to straight wing and fast engine response.

Four years of operating into LCY and a few GA's myself leads to a huge respect for the place and it's very 'individual' challenges!

Low level GA's were well practised in the sim and with large decent rates frequently involved a touchdown, however brief. More a baulked landing than GA on many occasions. The hardy little 146 performed admirably in city, but I was always of the opinion that despite everyone's best efforts, intentions and undoubted ability any misjudgements are magnified by the place and its approach.

An unfortunate incident with a relatively good outcome.

Jazzy

[Super VC-10]

Are they going to have to move this aircraft across the docks on a barge to carry out repairs like they did the Swissair aircraft? :confused:

[TMAPAX]

Well in your own words that's already two steps removed from actually becoming major or fatal but I'll bite and ask, exactly how was this so close to a major event? What would have to have happened in this instance for it to become either of those (although the latter would of course necessitate the former)?

If you read what I wrote carefully, I stated that we shouldn't forget that how close this COULD have been to a more serious event.

For instance, if the landing was off centre, or even being unable to keep the a/c in a straight line by using the breaks, you have a nice grass verge, followed by a very deep dock either side of the landing strip.

Don't be blind to understanding and accepting that there could have been many different results to the one we saw on Friday.

Friday being the best out of the bunch id say.

First of all I am not getting into a pecker swinging contest. This option may be available in a turbo prop, jets on the other hand may not have this option specifically at Lcy where a multitude of factors will be working against you i.e short field,full flap,speed brake, spoiler deployed and ofcourse the 5-8 second delay from idle to full power.

Of couse, the power is less instant, FYI I fly the 85 in and out of city. As I said before, you can judge where abouts the touch down is going to happen, therefore, if it's going to be late, round out and climb out, even if you touch half way or further down the runway, you will still have enough time to close the spoiler, retract flaps by a few % push those levers to full power, roll out for a few seconds and re-climb.

Due to the steep approach, in the flare, you still have enough speed to gain enough lift to conduct a go-around. Shallow climb out allows the speed gain and time for the engines to hit the correct power setting.

Alot of the late touch downs are due to excess speed gained in the decent, creating the lift we want rid of!

[Flintstone]

If you read what I wrote carefully, I stated that we shouldn't forget that how close this COULD have been to a more serious event.

For instance, if the landing was off centre, or even being unable to keep the a/c in a straight line by using the breaks (sic), you have a nice grass verge, followed by a very deep dock either side of the landing strip.

Oh for heaven's sake! COULD have? When the jounalists sensationalise aviation incidents we berate them for it yet here we are feeding them material. If. If. If.

It was the nosewheel. It sheered off therefore no turning, no assymetric braking/drag ergo no big splash. No bodies washing up at Southend. No cries of "Was it terrorism?". No calls from the neighbours to close down the London City deathtrap. When I last landed all sorts of horrible things could have gone wrong. But they didn't.

Let's not encourage the hand wringers.

[False Capture]

Used to cheat slightly. Into the reds at 100ft, then a normal landing! Never any probs.

Any subsequent AAIB report would have highlighted:
Deliberately destabilising the approach at 100ft.
Departing from company SOPs.
Not following the manufacturer's recommended landing technique.
Poor CRM, due to the pressure deviating from SOPs puts on the F/O.

You're just lucky you never had an incident there. If you did, do you think company would have supported you - especially if it had made it into the public eye like Friday's incident has?

Please tell us you didn't have 4 reds.

[iwhak]

Will be interesting to see how the Airbus and Embraer behave in 'actual' operations at LCY.

[FlyingApe]

I think that should be the headlines in the Daily Papers. The crew instigated a fantastic, textbook evacuation.

Congratulations to them all. I'd fly with them anytime!

Ape :D :D :D

[Vortechs Jenerator]

BAE systems put out an All Operators Message that initial findings look like a cracked Nose gear body close to the pintle pins.

It is already the subject of a Mandatory ISB (serial number dependant)

[Nopax,thanx]

Ten aircraft to be emergency NDT inspected tomorrow according to my mole.....

[darren6012]

I see that the airport has used five airside ground staff in the local press calling them "The Rescuers" While they deserve the praise its strange to see them photographed , names and ages. Is this not a security risk? Are they and those close to them now at risk of pressure from extremists and organised crime? I dont think I have seen airside workers / grunts used in this way before.

[rvsm compliant]

Maybe BA RJ pilots can answer the following;
Is your pushback at AMS performed by tug with a towbar or the Big unit that lifts the nose leg off the floor.I ask this because memory tells me that only pushbacks with the formentioned, can, and only be carried out due to incidences that have happened in the past.
Sidewall diaphragms have been changed on numerous 146's due to cracking.

Just putting over the point that an eager tug driver 'pushing', before 'brakes released', can cause serious damage.

[spannersatKL]

Have seen the damage to the fuselage in these cases, not pretty requires skin changes etc. Have also changed a nose well side wall....not easy!!! Well not for a fat one like me!

[McDoo]

Incredible to think that when LCY first opened the only aircraft allowed in was the amazingly STOL but sadly short lived Dash 7. Now they are looking at operating A318 (319?) transatlantic from there.

Happen/to/accident/waiting (rearrange into a well known phrase or saying)

[backseatjock]

Hear that just like the Swiss RJ, recently involved in heavy landing and tailscrape, the BA aircraft may be shipped by barge across river to be repaired and then shipped back to resume ops.

[Dream Buster]

McDoo,

It wouldn't be 'Accident waiting to happen' would it?

Picture the poor skipper sitting there for n hours knowing that he has only been into LCY in the sim and for a few tame landing - being confronted by marginal conditions in darkness, PPN and serious X winds.

All I can say is STN is much safer in such conditions. I've been there and done that. I am a bit of a spineless coward though.

Good luck and if in doubt - don't.

DB :{

[Longhitter]

Gob,

Absolute non-event. BACF is well past the yellow lines, if the LX guys weren't happy they would have gone around (and they're pretty conservative). On top of that, the tower controller would have them do it if he/she thought it too close for comfort. No more scaremongering please.

[Teddy Robinson]

what complete tosh ... that's normal ops at LCY.. the camera work is not too good either... away to the spotters forum with ya ..:=

[DutchBird-757]

RVSM, I´ve had the Big unit that lifts you up. But not at AMS, it was at MAD. Only once though and normally it´s the towbar.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Just another day at City. "Swiss xxx, expect late landing clearance".

A phrase heard rather frequently at City, operation normal.

[Tandemrotor]

DutchBird-757

Me too, however I seem to recall, it was never approved. A blind eye was always turned to that particular operation. Falling under the category of TFD!

Perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps it was changed.

Maybe rvsm has a good point??

[TMAPAX]

At the time of this landing/video I was on the ground awaiting start. The Swiss crew reported visual and happy to continue.

From my angle, there was plently of room/time for this landing to be conducted safely.

Remember that Swiss are one of the first to go around when they don't like something.

Hand it to the ATCO, kept calm and pulled it off. One less go-around.

Oh, and may I add, It's much more ideal when the ATCO asks the question and provides some ground information.

"Aircraft vacating ahead, are you happy to continue"

Rather than "GO AROUND!!"

I've been sent around (not just at city) far to early in my opinion. If the question had been asked if we are happy to continue, 9 times out of 10, it would have been "YES WE ARE" and a safe landing would have followed.

The crew are a better judge of speed/distance than the person in the Tower.

However, I am not knocking the work the ATC do in keeping us all flying safe! Top job.

[janneapfi]

Hello TMAPAX."Remember that Swiss are one of the first to go around when they don't like something."Could u pls tell me why SWISS is the first to go around when they dont like something?What is something?Take care and be proud of beeing a LCY pilot.It is not just a 3° glide, 3000 meters of concrete and the terminal on the left or the right side.Now and then you have( may) to show your :E :rolleyes:balls.Ha Ha.The Swiss dont guard the Pope just because.

[TMAPAX]

Something is anything the crew dislike, or feel will cause safety implications to them, their passengers and or aircraft.

They follow the rules very closely.

If bad weather is forecasted, they cancel. Rather than trying to make that approach and descending down to 400ft over London in fog.

A very good airline with smart and cautious crews.

[armchairpilot94116]

Many years ago while over Madrid in a Swissair DC-9 we were on top of a very big weather system. The Captain announced that most flights had diverted to Barcelona but he was going to make an attempt to land and we should expect strong turbulence. We made our attempt and it was very rough. We went from clear skies to pitch black but I was happy when we hit an updraft and shot out of there back into the blue. We then diverted to Barcelona where the airport was filled with many aircraft apparently from Madrid, sat there with doors open for 2 hours then flew back in clear weather.

I didnt really appreciate the Captain making that attempt to land when , as I found out later, all other flights had diverted .

Our Swissair flight was apparently the only one that made that attempt as Madrid was having one of its worst thunderstorms in 2 decades (according to the Madrid associate and resident who was waiting to fetch me at the airport and the news).

Of course SWISS and SWISSAIR are not the same airline.

[AlphaRomeoMike]

Any subsequent AAIB report would have highlighted:
Deliberately destabilising the approach at 100ft.
Departing from company SOPs.
Not following the manufacturer's recommended landing technique.
Poor CRM, due to the pressure deviating from SOPs puts on the F/O.

You're just lucky you never had an incident there. If you did, do you think company would have supported you - especially if it had made it into the public eye like Friday's incident has?

Please tell us you didn't have 4 reds.


On a lighter note False Capture, I started life as a despatcher at LCY back in '89. A small Dutch operator whom I shalln't name, but who operated a Dornier 228, released some sparkling PR literature.

They basically released a smashing looking postcard made up from a photo taken by a passenger from the cabin as the a/c was on short final to 28. Guess what? Nobody in their PR dept., had noticed the 4 reds in the pic. :ugh:

Oddly the postcards didn't hang around long. No idea why :)

[False Capture]

Oddly the postcards didn't hang around long. No idea whyProbably because it was before the days of digital photography - nowadays, it would be Photoshopped.:ok:

[billysmart]

hi guys registered to ask a quick question... one of the terminals at our centre has about 15 pictures of close up damage and 1 picture showing the nose gear sheared off just above the hinge point. Unfortunatly teminal is heavily restricted so we cant do anything with the pictures.....

does anyone here have them? i am surprised they have not been added to this topic actually?

[BAe146s make me cry]

Billysmart

It would be good if someone could obtain those pictures.

It also just occurred to me that G-BXAR/E3298 has also previously
been quite unlucky. It was the infamous 'RJ in the grass'...

Ground Engineers performed an EGR that went a bit wrong.
Ferry flight to Exeter. 2+ months later with serious structural repairs,
re-skinning of lower fuselage, extensive alignment checks, rebuild &
function checks, handed back to customer serviceable.

Whats the plan then BA chaps?

BAe146??? :{:{:{

[billysmart]

hi yes i wish we could do anything with the photographs but the terminal is locked down so all we can do is access our email - its not even possible to copy/paste items or right click. we are still wondering how the photographs came to be on the terminal.

all i can say is the top section of the gear is sheared open above the hinge point and i am told by an engineer that this area is subject to ldt something testing for cracks. Other photo shows the nose wheels sticking thru the floor of the electronics area and a large hole in the area below the computers.

[TMAPAX]

What are you on about " Terminal "

[OpsSix]

He means computer terminal.

Will ctrl+c / ctrl+v not work? (copy & paste)

[billysmart]

tampax: i refer to the terminal as the computer terminal

opssix: tried that already but unfortunatly it doesnt work, as i said it is an email station and we are not able to use USB,cdrom,disc, download/upload anything, or copy paste using mouse or keyboard controls.

I do however find it a surprise that others have not recieved these photgraphs as I am sure they are "doing the rounds" so to speak.

[goofyprune]

Yes, it would be good for someone to paste them here. They the airport authority can watch the CCTV footage, find the person who took the pictures and suspend them from work :D

[darren6012]

Surely not - The Airport did a piece with the local rag with a big picture of the officers of Airfield Operations , Fire Watch Manager , Safety Operations Control , Office Operations Safety Control and Ramp Coordinator.

It gave their names , ages , positions and their picture. Surely they wouldnt reprimand someone for posting pictures of the aircraft? I hope not as one of the guys had some pics posted on another website!

[TMAPAX]

I can only comment on Swiss's performance at LCY. Very professional and very well conducted crews.

Parked next to the BA today, no main undercarriage. Big box next to the plane, is this a replacement?

Had a quick look around, most of the damage has been covered over.

And cheers for the terminal info. I'm an old school person. I barely know them as "Personal computers". God help me.

How about, forward the e-mail to another e-mail address, such as a friends or even a home address, and then copy and paste?

I've learnt that much over the years.

I saw the paper in the terminal (airport terminal) with those airport guys on the front. Surely the airport would have organised that, or had some involvement, I doubt very much that those staff members would "tell their story" without prior permission. Having their faces and names printed would be an extremely stupid thing to do if that hadn't!!!

Even so, an interesting read and a job well done.

[billysmart]

MMM tried to add the photographs into this website but not having much luck so the computer man at work has helped me, he used a special password and put the photographs onto a compact disk for me and showed me about this "image" thing so other people can see them too, this should work i hope.http://www.raveoff.com/images/unyybpo7ozyylrojym2o.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/299pallbqo1v3bs5cois.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/02mki3uxlfdl3rg82op.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/uxpeahcgd0r8f4yn2ue9.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/ojlw0jc0hxzg7e87ocd1.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/ylhlso5pxz5jaqnl83ad.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/3wgpbjyryldhtt6sn7fb.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/37f9510etgwflffga4e.jpghttp://www.raveoff.com/images/fn5c22natyomt1sffjy.jpg

[Orava]

I can see they have mastered crosswind landings. :)

YouTube - Heavy Landing in London City Airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2A7pgdWHYs&feature=related)

[lomapaseo]

MMM tried to add the photographs into this website but not having much luck so the computer man at work has helped me, he used a special password and put the photographs onto a compact disk for me and showed me about this "image" thing so other people can see them too, this should work i hope.

I would get another computer guy to help you next time :)

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/7fb.jpg

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/4e.jpg

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/jy.jpg

[BAe146s make me cry]

Thank you Billy and Lomapaseo

Its not a bad thing to learn something from any incident...

The top of the main fitting has failed adjacent uplock/downlock plunger.
Not sure if this is where the increased 'NDT' (Non-Destructive-Testing) is completed though (Being an Avionic 146/RJ AMT). I know the diagphrams and surrounding NLG bay structures are subjected to NDT.

I'd be interested to see the condition of the uplock/downlock 'stepped Plunger' itself and associated positioning mechanism despite the cracked housing it's (or remains of it are) now living in.

The Pintle Pin attachment housings in airframe held after retraction jack failure allowing main gear fitting to swivel aft, slice through the frame immediately aft of NLG Bay structure and enter the E&E bay. The fescalised portion of the NLG is fully extended and torque links would clearly be damaged.

Avionics dept? NLG Squat sensors + harnesses, written off. Main & Stby Gear Downlock sensors + uplock sensor likely damaged - targets on NLG deformed. The IRUs, ASCU, Main rack looms, Panels 131-11-00 & 131-12-00 seem to have survived the adjacent puncture & scrape damage. The main a/c battery tray has been damaged and there also seems to be some batt feeder damage evident.

All LRUs will be removed for workshop visits to ascertain internal
damage and perform functional checks per CMM. Also, adjacent airframe & honeycomb panels, Looms,Conns & LRUs probably Skydrol contaminated with Green Hyds being lost, Yellow hyds will have been intact for brakes, rudder, inbd lift spoilers & importantly the airstairs - however, fwd ones not reqd that day..

There will be structural inspections including further NDT, alignment checks (again, sorry BXAR) and consequent frame, skin & longeron replacement as determined by BAe. A truly expensive repair but not a write off. Not sure if an Embraer would do as well (Although, I am increasingly impressed the more I work on them).

I (as well as others) do however look forward to seeing an official report generated by far more official and competent, nominated personnel than myself. No really, good luck gents. Its going to be a busy year for you. I do not envy your duties.

Send your gratitude to Cologne and its super NAA's with the highest standards.

BAe146

P.S. What did Muirhead say regarding G-BXAR's DFDR data dump - especially ADC & accelerometer parameters? :} (Tin hat secured)

[Munnyspinner]

Have BA done any proving flights in and out of LCY with The Embraer 170 /190 I read that they will be changing the fleet from RJ by October. This should be interesting.

Anyone know when the Airbus 318 service to NY starts?

[towser]

First Cityflyer Emb170 doesn't arrive till September. Emb170 already certified for LCY and 190 following soon. So no there have been no proving flights yet.

[Riccardo]

Can't wait to see how ops are going to park them - given that the 170 is over 3m (190 - 6m) longer than an RJ100, who's horizontal stab sticks out over the road when parked on stand. OK for the RJ because it's so high but the Emb is a low stab......

[Teddy Robinson]

The new parking area in the dock ( east of the tower) is designed to accommodate larger aircraft up to and including the A318.

[DutchBird-757]

Are you sure the 170 is longer than a RJ100? You must be thinking of the 190 surely. Aren't they (190's) gonna be parked nose-in on the new stands only?

[Cyrano]

Are you sure the 170 is longer than a RJ100? You must be thinking of the 190 surely.

Quite so.

Overall lengths, according to ATI:

E170: 29.9 m
E190: 36.2 m
RJ100: 31.0 m
A318: 31.4 m

[AutoAbort]

AVRO RJ85 overall length 28,55m
AVRO RJ100 overall length 30,99m
EMB 170 overall length 29,90m
EMB 190 overall lenght 36,24m


AutoAbort

[graviton]

BBC News - London City Airport crash jet 'not properly serviced' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8509780.stm)

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/Avro%20146-RJ100,%20G-BXAR%2002-10.pdf

[akerosid]

Are A319s certified for use at LCY? I had understood that they had been, but is parking an issue for them?

It's 3m shorter (roughly) than the 190, albeit with a slightly bigger wingspan (the 319 is c. 33m both ways - w/span and length).

I ask because I understand that BA has plans to develop its long haul ops at LCY, given the success of the New York operation; it has two o/s 318 options, but I'm wondering if these could be converted to 319s.

[Avenger]

LCY is not only LHS landing, depends on the company. VLM for instance allow both and line train into LCY.