Concern over jet-lagged pilots

[sky9]

A report in today's Daily Telegraph refers to a study carried out by the European Safety Agency that found fatigue in pilots.
Full details is at
Pilots flying tired according to European safety experts - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/4317911/Pilots-flying-tired-according-to-European-safety-experts.html)

Report available on

http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/doc/research/FTL%20Study%20Final%20Report.pdf

[Moonraker One]

Any comment on the the short haul low cost model?

Working early mornings and late nights with no meal breaks on short turn rounds?

Or is it just the glamour routes and their jet lag.

O and I forgot the long position flights back to base after duty.

Ground workers should not be doing 12 hour shifts either.

:ugh:

[Jefferson Airplane]

To all of us who spend our working days (and nights) trying to combat the effects of fatigue, herewith a novel method from the Indian DGCA.

Now, if we could just convince the cabin crew...

JA.

January 23 2009 at 11:34AM
New Delhi - Indian pilots have a new weapon to combat mid-flight fatigue: talking with their cabin crew.

India's aviation regulator, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), has issued some guidelines after recent incidents of pilots dozing off and veering off their flight paths, the Hindustan Times newspaper reported on Friday.

The orders instruct cabin crews of all domestic airlines to talk to pilots every half hour to keep them awake, and to keep speaker volume high so that pilots can hear air traffic controllers.

The instructions also reiterate general safety measures for cabin crew such as taking regular rest periods and limiting the length of each shift.

Last year the pilots of a Mumbai-bound Air India flight reportedly fell asleep and overshot their destination.

An official with the DGCA denied that there was a problem with Indian pilots falling asleep and said it was normal for the cockpit crew to feel drowsy. - AFP

[beardy]

I can't find any link to the report itself (I know google is my friend, but he isn't helpful this morning), has it been published or is this a leak?

[The SSK]

EASA have buried it away as deep as they can. Anybody would think they are embarrassed about it

www.easa.europa.eu
> Rulemaking Overview
> Studies and Research Activities

[The Real Slim Shady]

Moonraker

The FR 5 earlies, 4 off, 5 lates, 4 off does not, in my experience cause fatigue.

After the 3rd early, if they have been long days - TFS or FUE, for example, I just go to bed a tad earlier. I get tired, but not fatigued, as I have plenty of time on my days off to recover.

Same on lates: most start around 3pm, finish before 11.30 pm.

We don't nightstop so no dragging bags around hotels: our rosters don't change much, you might get a short notice - "Can you operate the Prague instead of the Riga?" but as they depart within 5 minutes of each other it isn't a problem.

We don't swap from earlies to lates on the same week so we don't have the classic - always start on an early, finish on a late.

We tend to get 1 stby each week and very rarely get called out.

We get wrap round days on leave, so 5 days leave can give you 13 days off: 10 days leave can give you 22 days off as you get the 4 off days in the middle too.

I know my days off until April next year so can plan my life: I know which days I will be on lates, which days on earlies so that I can plan my life.

Don't know the Easy or baby rosters work, but ours are OK.

[yokebearer]

An official with the DGCA......said it was normal for the cockpit crew to feel drowsy. - AFPNo comment.

[doubleu-anker]

For those that are not aware, the human body does not like the body clock messed around with, period. Regardless of, age experience and fitness levels etc.

As it takes 24 hours for the body clock to re adjust to a 1 hour time change, so then fatigue, drowsiness and jet lag will always be with us.

So what has this report dug up that we as crew did not know previously? Another waste of tax payers money.

Don't worry though as the FDTL that are laid out by the JAA are acceptable to them, so we are all ok. Just carry on flying long haul East/West, (with minimum rest that is far too short), to an early grave.:ugh:

[Moonraker One]

An interesting read.

I hope that it is not lost in the long grass.

:ok:

[NigelOnDraft]

So what has this report dug up that we as crew did not know previously? Another waste of tax payers money. Disagree ;) I am not familiar with Sub Part Q or whatever, but am with CAP 371 / UK Scheme. This report appears to address some Sub Part Q areas and find them unacceptable, and in a few areas, the recommendations tie in closely with CAP 371. There are some areas it seems to go further than CAP 371 :D

NoD

[merlinxx]

As I have posted before. When the pre CAP371 came into trial in the early 70s, we (that is the airline I was with) were part of the trial. Certain of the limitations were greater than the existing industrial document, but over all it was (and still is) the finest FTL/FDTL doc there is, and I have worked with a few non Brit operators. EASA don't **** with a system which has been proven many time over by scientific study, not just in the UK before, and at it's concept, but also by NASA in the US. Ask AALPA, IFALPA or even ask BALPA (though that may not be a good idea, they did sanction a 'sell back' of certain bits to Imperial Airways via the PLC:ugh:

[flipster]

Anyone who thinks that fatigue is not an issue in the airways, is living in cloud-cuckoo-land - in fact, they are probably fatigued?!!

A few reasons that I can think of, for starters:



CAP 371 is probably the best there is but also, there has been an awful lot of research done since then that indicates that the FTLs need updating - hence the EASA study.

A number of companies' rostering depts see the FTLs as legitimate 'targets' rather than 'once in a blue moon' limits. Some lucky SOBs have negotiated a capping but most haven't.

Ac fly faster and for longer so more time zones get crossed and more quickly.

Current FTLs were written at a time a lot of people did a lot less commuting to the airport, on quieter roads, with less-busy monthly rosters.

Different countries have different FTLS (and some MUCH worse than 371) - while they share the same airspace with us!

Ac are more automated now - less excitment (maybe) but perhaps there is also less mental stimulation and we are more likely to nod off?

Some crews have misconceptions about how fatigued they really are and what they can do about it, allied to a slight 'in-bred' reluctance to say 'No'.



At the end of day (pardon the pun) - you wouldn't get a doctor operating on you if he was working to airline FTLs (and would you want him to?), never mind a lorry-driver on the M1!

[beardy]

Unfortunately you could get a doctor operating on you in the UK having worked longer hours than CAP 371 would allow. Lorry drivers transporting livestock in Europe have much more restrictive hours than coach drivers with people on board. Now there's a thought, reclassify SLF! It's a mixed up world!

[WindSheer]

Try train drivers also!

We work stupid hours, and as the industry is regulated from within, companies do what they want! My current limit is 4 hrs 45 min constant driving without a break.......absolute joke!:mad:
Bearing in mind this is a lonely job, with sometimes 1000+ passengers sat behind you.
Count yourselves lucky guys....:ugh:

P.s. I forgot to mention, if you reach your 4 hrs 45 mins, the company puts enormous pressure on you to continue and break the law.....so they are not blocking the line and incurring financial penalties ...:mad:

[boredcounter]

Just interested, why should ground staff not work 12 hour shifts?

[dusk2dawn]

Because tired staff - flying or not - do strange things detriment to safe operation.

European Cockpit Association has quite a lot of web-pages on fattique: For Better Legal Protection Against Pilot Fatigue (http://www.eurocockpit.be/content/view/414/252/)

[Nicholas49]

Flipster: "At the end of day (pardon the pun) - you wouldn't get a doctor operating on you if he was working to airline FTLs..."

I am afraid that could not be further from the truth. I am a trainee doctor and I can assure you that our working hours are nowhere near as regulated as professional pilots. I have spent the last week working in A&E starting at 7pm and finishing at 7am. There will then be one, maybe two days off before I start 7am to 7pm for a week. Etc.

There are no statutory limitations for us. This is not to say that pilots' FTLs are effective, I am sure they are not, but be careful when drawing analogies with other professions because you'll find you're more tightly regulated than everyone else.

[lexxity]

I'm ground staff and I only work part time now, when I did full time I'd have to check and re-check things somedays, because I was so tired I wasn't sure I'd done everything correctly. Luckily my airline, well my base anyway, enforces the rest periods on ground shift work.

I've often wondered how our crews cope with the timezone changes.

[fourgolds]

I can honestly say that on many occassions I have flown an approach fatigued out off my skull. If something serious were to happen then my ability to deal with it would undoubtedly be compromised.

Something does need to be done. the existing FTL,s are inadequate and this new research / regulation mandate is a step in the right direction.
Seems like someone is finally telling the truth.

Then again , change in this arena is slow slow slow. I wont hold my breath.

[flipster]

Beardy and Nick 49

I apologise if I got it all wrong but I thought that I read that working hours limits for dockers'...doctors', sorry, is being brought in line with the EU WTD. Doctors will be limited to no more than 48 hours duty per week, down from 56 hours - which is the limit for FD? I recall this, as I am sure i read that some hospitals don't have the manpower to cope when the rules come in this year, I think.

As for the complexities of your rosters and rotas - I could not say - what have you heard?

SLF = livestock? I like the idea!

flipster

[fourgolds]

I have family who are Docs , not taking away how hard they work. But remember some work excruciating hours during thier internships and the first few years. Then many go into private practice ( if they so choose) .Where they choose thier hours ( largely) . It is not sustained ( internship) type hours over a 30 year career. Now flying on the other hand ........

[dicksorchard]

I have a daughter who suffer's from autism & a sleep disorder .
She is prescribed Melatonin and takes it on a regular basis and has i am glad to say shown great improvement in sleeping patterns !

Now on a trip to see her consultant we got into a conversation about the benfits of taking this medication and my daughters consultant actually told me that he personally knew that Melatonin works for jet -lag .

When i asked him how he knew - he told me he used it all the time as he flew on a very regular basis and a lot of long haul . He also told me that he had two friends who worked in the avaition industry - both Air crew who used it also to combat fatigue and jet-lag .

So what did i do ?
Prior to a recent vacation to Cuba - flight from Manchester , UK to Varadero i took melatonin for 1 week - after a gruelling 14 hour journey ( delays etc & drop off at Holguin ) we arrived at our hotel late in the evening .

Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .
we where on the beach whilst everone else was in bed suffering from jet -lag !

Frankly we where amazed . Mind over matter ?

Well we did'nt take any melatonin whilst on vacation and forgot to take it prior to departure like we where supposed to do .

consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?

what do you guys think ? and have you ever used it yourself ?

[fourgolds]

My companies medical policy explicitly forbids the use of melatonin. On top of this it may show up in random drug testing by them. So no relief there.
But glad you had a nice holiday.

[TheKabaka]

I believe melatonin is banned by the CAA for use by pilots. There is very little testing done on it

[DIA74]

Just to lighten the proceedings, chaps, is there any truth in the rumour that PHUKET got its name after pilots kept missing it?

[Airbus Girl]

I think this report was commissioned by EASA to act as a basis for an alignment of the European FTL regs - at the moment each country works to a different FTL scheme. So I guess they were trying to use the latest science to produce a new, European-wide FTL scheme. That kind of makes sense.

However....according to the Daily Telegraph (link in 1st post) -
"The report called for a number of changes including at least 10 hours' rest for crew arriving at night."

Erm....we already get 10 hours rest don't we? I mean, minimum for us is 10 hours in a hotel, or 12 hours rest, or rest equal to the length of the time on duty.

Other recommendations included increasing meal break times from 20 to 30 minutes every six hours for crew, with an additional 10 minute break every three hours to avoid dehydration.

Increasing meal breaks??? Who gets meal breaks? Not me, that's for sure!!! Nor anyone in the airline I work for....

When do we get this 20 minutes meal break then? On the turnround (between doing the walk round, computer, perf figures, liaising with company on flight plans, refuelling, etc.etc.)???? Does someone actually get a meal break??

[Reluctant737]

John R,

I'm not sure about other pilots but for myself and 99% of the Captains I fly with, the longest sector CRZ normally tends to contain the lunch break.

When I first began flying on the line, I made a typical mistake - I didn't eat all day when I was at work, and when I got home I simply felt too tired even to eat. I was on duty for the morning flight to Reus the next day, and that morning I ate nothing either, or for the entire day as a matter of fact. The third day was an absolute nightmare - I slept poorly and woke up feeling drained of every ounce of energy in my body. As fate would dictate I was operating a six sector day (first one for a while) and I felt dreadful. I had a skull numbing headache all day long, my throat was sore, my eyes dry (the low humidity only exacerbated matters), and it took every little piece of professionalism and self control I possess to stop myself from nodding off. My Captain that day was not the 'understanding' type and I am certain, had I fallen asleep, a certain letter would have made its way to HR.

And perhaps rightly so - as airline pilots we are bounded by a personal duty to do all in our power to fit our own sleeping and eating patterns around our rosters.

I must come clean - I have never had a flying job in which I have had to work opposing shifts so I couldn't possibly comment on that matter, however I have worked similar hours in jobs prior to flying, and I take my hats off to those of you who successfully plan your time and get away without incident.

But as somebody above has mentioned, Ryanair is a good place to work regarding the hours - there was that one time, but that was my own doing. Generally if you take the time and think to yourself, "Right, what's on for the next 72 hours", it's not too difficult to plan your life accordingly.

In saying that, stby's can really fu*k things up... I had an 'informal' standby at the request of ops, and I was told there was a minimal chance I may be required on Day X - you know, the odds of which were similar to a meteor strike. So I had a late night, climbed into bed and the phone woke me up three hours later... Oh well, I had a few days off after that! :p

The best we can do, chaps, is try to plan as best we can - eat healthy and reguarly, remain hydrated, and you can't go far wrong :ok:

Ad

[wheresmyelephant]

As an aside, can anyone point me in the direction of any actual studies done on shift patterns. I often hear that such an such is the most fatiguing roster, however can find no proof. Thanks.

[dc10driver]

Morning to all, fatigue.........
We must firstly diffentiate the difference between being tired and being fatigued. I know I am fatigued when I need my calculator to do a simple calculation such as 2+2. (I then hope I push the right buttons!)
We do extremely long days in sometimes very challlenging conditions and even more challenging 'airports' around the Middle East and Africa. We can have a planned duty day of 18.5 hours (no max sectors) Unfortunately, we sometimes have to do more. I have found that fatigue starts to affect the brain waves after a few days of flying. An 18 or 20 hour day is easily accepted by the body and brain, but 5, 6, or 7 days like this in a row is when danger becomes ever present. Fortunately, when we (our company) are toooo fatigued, we stop where we are and rest. The company has never 'punished' us for stopping. They may have asked for us to continue, but the crew have the final word.

We all know the FTL's do not reflect an in depth medical analysis of the human body, Oh sorry, maybe the 'left pocket' part of the anatomy! It is a vegetarian analysis (bean counter!) that has no meat or substance. Pilots and unions are the only way to change things but we must be carefull not to cut our own throats! I personnally think we should have a system where the duty limits are inversley proportional to the days worked. Fresh from days off maybe 16 or 17 hours, at the end of your month maybe only 8 hours a day..........

Well my 2 pence worth and 2 precious minutes.....now I can rest for my next planned trip. 55 hours, 10 sectors, 4 days and 8 countries! And to think I dreamed and worked to achieve this career for years....even decades!
Have a great new year guys

[Bruce Wayne]

Prior to a recent vacation to Cuba - flight from Manchester , UK to Varadero i took melatonin for 1 week - after a gruelling 14 hour journey ( delays etc & drop off at Holguin ) we arrived at our hotel late in the evening .

Myself and my partner woke up fresh as daisys , with not a hint ov jet-lag , in fact we where the only travellers from our flight to be at breakfast & lunch .

and

Well we did'nt take any melatonin whilst on vacation and forgot to take it prior to departure like we where supposed to do .

consequence - on return to the uk both off us felt dredfull ..the dreded jet lag had caught up with us ! since then i use melatonin on a reugular basis especially when travelling long haul ..i have learnt that some airline pilots also use this substance ?


1. Outbound you were flying East to West so jet lag was not a major issue.

2. Inbound you were flying West to East and you experienced jet lag.

3. Malatonin should not be used by flight crews without prior consultation with your AME (http://www.flightsafety.org/hf/hf_may-june96.pdf) .

4. CAA CAP 768 3.1:

"... Because melatonin will cause sleepiness and impair performance immediately after ingestion, and because the after-effects could be detrimental to operational efficiency, operators should forbid its use less than 12 hours before the start of a flying duty period and during the duty period."

The CAA have *not* banned melatonin but *do not recommend it*:

Again, CAA CAP768 3.1

"An informal CAA survey revealed that some users experienced nightmares, morning grogginess, mild depression, nausea and genital pain. In the light of what is now known about melatonin, its use by flight and cabin crew is not recommended."

[RAT 5]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

This topic has been thrashed around for years. Every so often something causes it to be resurected. It is again debated here and else where. Often, as now, it is a new report telling what we have known for years. And yet what has been done about? the square root of f'all. It is a waste of money just becasue of that. We don't need a new report to re-hash the old ones. DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OLD ONES FIRST! Then, as with all good systems and much of our problem solving teachings, there is feed back and a review. Then there is a valuation of events and a rethink for a fine tune if necessary. As far as I can see, for most of the EU, nothing has been achieved by these reports. The new JAA FTL's don't seem to have taken on board data and opinions from the past 20 years. Except for some countries e.g. Italy whose FTL's were just plain dangerous and a health hazard to everyone, most of us seem to have gone backwards. Until stand is taken somewhere in the chain nowt will happen. There is too much financial muscle from the top. Pax will not accept prices of old. The industry would shrink to fit, perhaps, but it would be smaller. Some would say not a bad thing.