Concern over jet-lagged pilots
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Concern over jet-lagged pilots
A report in today's Daily Telegraph refers to a study carried out by the European Safety Agency that found fatigue in pilots.
Full details is at
Pilots flying tired according to European safety experts - Telegraph
Report available on
http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/...l%20Report.pdf
Full details is at
Pilots flying tired according to European safety experts - Telegraph
Report available on
http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/...l%20Report.pdf
Last edited by sky9; 24th Jan 2009 at 18:28. Reason: link added
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Any comment on the the short haul low cost model?
Working early mornings and late nights with no meal breaks on short turn rounds?
Or is it just the glamour routes and their jet lag.
O and I forgot the long position flights back to base after duty.
Ground workers should not be doing 12 hour shifts either.
Working early mornings and late nights with no meal breaks on short turn rounds?
Or is it just the glamour routes and their jet lag.
O and I forgot the long position flights back to base after duty.
Ground workers should not be doing 12 hour shifts either.
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Coffee and conversation for tired pilots
To all of us who spend our working days (and nights) trying to combat the effects of fatigue, herewith a novel method from the Indian DGCA.
Now, if we could just convince the cabin crew...
JA.
January 23 2009 at 11:34AM
New Delhi - Indian pilots have a new weapon to combat mid-flight fatigue: talking with their cabin crew.
India's aviation regulator, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), has issued some guidelines after recent incidents of pilots dozing off and veering off their flight paths, the Hindustan Times newspaper reported on Friday.
The orders instruct cabin crews of all domestic airlines to talk to pilots every half hour to keep them awake, and to keep speaker volume high so that pilots can hear air traffic controllers.
The instructions also reiterate general safety measures for cabin crew such as taking regular rest periods and limiting the length of each shift.
Last year the pilots of a Mumbai-bound Air India flight reportedly fell asleep and overshot their destination.
An official with the DGCA denied that there was a problem with Indian pilots falling asleep and said it was normal for the cockpit crew to feel drowsy. - AFP
Now, if we could just convince the cabin crew...
JA.
January 23 2009 at 11:34AM
New Delhi - Indian pilots have a new weapon to combat mid-flight fatigue: talking with their cabin crew.
India's aviation regulator, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), has issued some guidelines after recent incidents of pilots dozing off and veering off their flight paths, the Hindustan Times newspaper reported on Friday.
The orders instruct cabin crews of all domestic airlines to talk to pilots every half hour to keep them awake, and to keep speaker volume high so that pilots can hear air traffic controllers.
The instructions also reiterate general safety measures for cabin crew such as taking regular rest periods and limiting the length of each shift.
Last year the pilots of a Mumbai-bound Air India flight reportedly fell asleep and overshot their destination.
An official with the DGCA denied that there was a problem with Indian pilots falling asleep and said it was normal for the cockpit crew to feel drowsy. - AFP
A Runyonesque Character
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EASA have buried it away as deep as they can. Anybody would think they are embarrassed about it
www.easa.europa.eu
> Rulemaking Overview
> Studies and Research Activities
www.easa.europa.eu
> Rulemaking Overview
> Studies and Research Activities
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Moonraker
The FR 5 earlies, 4 off, 5 lates, 4 off does not, in my experience cause fatigue.
After the 3rd early, if they have been long days - TFS or FUE, for example, I just go to bed a tad earlier. I get tired, but not fatigued, as I have plenty of time on my days off to recover.
Same on lates: most start around 3pm, finish before 11.30 pm.
We don't nightstop so no dragging bags around hotels: our rosters don't change much, you might get a short notice - "Can you operate the Prague instead of the Riga?" but as they depart within 5 minutes of each other it isn't a problem.
We don't swap from earlies to lates on the same week so we don't have the classic - always start on an early, finish on a late.
We tend to get 1 stby each week and very rarely get called out.
We get wrap round days on leave, so 5 days leave can give you 13 days off: 10 days leave can give you 22 days off as you get the 4 off days in the middle too.
I know my days off until April next year so can plan my life: I know which days I will be on lates, which days on earlies so that I can plan my life.
Don't know the Easy or baby rosters work, but ours are OK.
The FR 5 earlies, 4 off, 5 lates, 4 off does not, in my experience cause fatigue.
After the 3rd early, if they have been long days - TFS or FUE, for example, I just go to bed a tad earlier. I get tired, but not fatigued, as I have plenty of time on my days off to recover.
Same on lates: most start around 3pm, finish before 11.30 pm.
We don't nightstop so no dragging bags around hotels: our rosters don't change much, you might get a short notice - "Can you operate the Prague instead of the Riga?" but as they depart within 5 minutes of each other it isn't a problem.
We don't swap from earlies to lates on the same week so we don't have the classic - always start on an early, finish on a late.
We tend to get 1 stby each week and very rarely get called out.
We get wrap round days on leave, so 5 days leave can give you 13 days off: 10 days leave can give you 22 days off as you get the 4 off days in the middle too.
I know my days off until April next year so can plan my life: I know which days I will be on lates, which days on earlies so that I can plan my life.
Don't know the Easy or baby rosters work, but ours are OK.
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For those that are not aware, the human body does not like the body clock messed around with, period. Regardless of, age experience and fitness levels etc.
As it takes 24 hours for the body clock to re adjust to a 1 hour time change, so then fatigue, drowsiness and jet lag will always be with us.
So what has this report dug up that we as crew did not know previously? Another waste of tax payers money.
Don't worry though as the FDTL that are laid out by the JAA are acceptable to them, so we are all ok. Just carry on flying long haul East/West, (with minimum rest that is far too short), to an early grave.
As it takes 24 hours for the body clock to re adjust to a 1 hour time change, so then fatigue, drowsiness and jet lag will always be with us.
So what has this report dug up that we as crew did not know previously? Another waste of tax payers money.
Don't worry though as the FDTL that are laid out by the JAA are acceptable to them, so we are all ok. Just carry on flying long haul East/West, (with minimum rest that is far too short), to an early grave.
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So what has this report dug up that we as crew did not know previously? Another waste of tax payers money.
I am not familiar with Sub Part Q or whatever, but am with CAP 371 / UK Scheme. This report appears to address some Sub Part Q areas and find them unacceptable, and in a few areas, the recommendations tie in closely with CAP 371. There are some areas it seems to go further than CAP 371 
NoD
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N O D & all
As I have posted before. When the pre CAP371 came into trial in the early 70s, we (that is the airline I was with) were part of the trial. Certain of the limitations were greater than the existing industrial document, but over all it was (and still is) the finest FTL/FDTL doc there is, and I have worked with a few non Brit operators. EASA don't **** with a system which has been proven many time over by scientific study, not just in the UK before, and at it's concept, but also by NASA in the US. Ask AALPA, IFALPA or even ask BALPA (though that may not be a good idea, they did sanction a 'sell back' of certain bits to Imperial Airways via the PLC
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Anyone who thinks that fatigue is not an issue in the airways, is living in cloud-cuckoo-land - in fact, they are probably fatigued?!!
A few reasons that I can think of, for starters:
CAP 371 is probably the best there is but also, there has been an awful lot of research done since then that indicates that the FTLs need updating - hence the EASA study.
A number of companies' rostering depts see the FTLs as legitimate 'targets' rather than 'once in a blue moon' limits. Some lucky SOBs have negotiated a capping but most haven't.
Ac fly faster and for longer so more time zones get crossed and more quickly.
Current FTLs were written at a time a lot of people did a lot less commuting to the airport, on quieter roads, with less-busy monthly rosters.
Different countries have different FTLS (and some MUCH worse than 371) - while they share the same airspace with us!
Ac are more automated now - less excitment (maybe) but perhaps there is also less mental stimulation and we are more likely to nod off?
Some crews have misconceptions about how fatigued they really are and what they can do about it, allied to a slight 'in-bred' reluctance to say 'No'.
At the end of day (pardon the pun) - you wouldn't get a doctor operating on you if he was working to airline FTLs (and would you want him to?), never mind a lorry-driver on the M1!
A few reasons that I can think of, for starters:
CAP 371 is probably the best there is but also, there has been an awful lot of research done since then that indicates that the FTLs need updating - hence the EASA study.
A number of companies' rostering depts see the FTLs as legitimate 'targets' rather than 'once in a blue moon' limits. Some lucky SOBs have negotiated a capping but most haven't.
Ac fly faster and for longer so more time zones get crossed and more quickly.
Current FTLs were written at a time a lot of people did a lot less commuting to the airport, on quieter roads, with less-busy monthly rosters.
Different countries have different FTLS (and some MUCH worse than 371) - while they share the same airspace with us!
Ac are more automated now - less excitment (maybe) but perhaps there is also less mental stimulation and we are more likely to nod off?
Some crews have misconceptions about how fatigued they really are and what they can do about it, allied to a slight 'in-bred' reluctance to say 'No'.
At the end of day (pardon the pun) - you wouldn't get a doctor operating on you if he was working to airline FTLs (and would you want him to?), never mind a lorry-driver on the M1!
Unfortunately you could get a doctor operating on you in the UK having worked longer hours than CAP 371 would allow. Lorry drivers transporting livestock in Europe have much more restrictive hours than coach drivers with people on board. Now there's a thought, reclassify SLF! It's a mixed up world!
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Try train drivers also!
We work stupid hours, and as the industry is regulated from within, companies do what they want! My current limit is 4 hrs 45 min constant driving without a break.......absolute joke!
Bearing in mind this is a lonely job, with sometimes 1000+ passengers sat behind you.
Count yourselves lucky guys....
P.s. I forgot to mention, if you reach your 4 hrs 45 mins, the company puts enormous pressure on you to continue and break the law.....so they are not blocking the line and incurring financial penalties ...
We work stupid hours, and as the industry is regulated from within, companies do what they want! My current limit is 4 hrs 45 min constant driving without a break.......absolute joke!
Bearing in mind this is a lonely job, with sometimes 1000+ passengers sat behind you.
Count yourselves lucky guys....
P.s. I forgot to mention, if you reach your 4 hrs 45 mins, the company puts enormous pressure on you to continue and break the law.....so they are not blocking the line and incurring financial penalties ...
Transparency International
Because tired staff - flying or not - do strange things detriment to safe operation.
European Cockpit Association has quite a lot of web-pages on fattique: For Better Legal Protection Against Pilot Fatigue
European Cockpit Association has quite a lot of web-pages on fattique: For Better Legal Protection Against Pilot Fatigue
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Flipster: "At the end of day (pardon the pun) - you wouldn't get a doctor operating on you if he was working to airline FTLs..."
I am afraid that could not be further from the truth. I am a trainee doctor and I can assure you that our working hours are nowhere near as regulated as professional pilots. I have spent the last week working in A&E starting at 7pm and finishing at 7am. There will then be one, maybe two days off before I start 7am to 7pm for a week. Etc.
There are no statutory limitations for us. This is not to say that pilots' FTLs are effective, I am sure they are not, but be careful when drawing analogies with other professions because you'll find you're more tightly regulated than everyone else.
I am afraid that could not be further from the truth. I am a trainee doctor and I can assure you that our working hours are nowhere near as regulated as professional pilots. I have spent the last week working in A&E starting at 7pm and finishing at 7am. There will then be one, maybe two days off before I start 7am to 7pm for a week. Etc.
There are no statutory limitations for us. This is not to say that pilots' FTLs are effective, I am sure they are not, but be careful when drawing analogies with other professions because you'll find you're more tightly regulated than everyone else.
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I'm ground staff and I only work part time now, when I did full time I'd have to check and re-check things somedays, because I was so tired I wasn't sure I'd done everything correctly. Luckily my airline, well my base anyway, enforces the rest periods on ground shift work.
I've often wondered how our crews cope with the timezone changes.
I've often wondered how our crews cope with the timezone changes.
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I can honestly say that on many occassions I have flown an approach fatigued out off my skull. If something serious were to happen then my ability to deal with it would undoubtedly be compromised.
Something does need to be done. the existing FTL,s are inadequate and this new research / regulation mandate is a step in the right direction.
Seems like someone is finally telling the truth.
Then again , change in this arena is slow slow slow. I wont hold my breath.
Something does need to be done. the existing FTL,s are inadequate and this new research / regulation mandate is a step in the right direction.
Seems like someone is finally telling the truth.
Then again , change in this arena is slow slow slow. I wont hold my breath.
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Beardy and Nick 49
I apologise if I got it all wrong but I thought that I read that working hours limits for dockers'...doctors', sorry, is being brought in line with the EU WTD. Doctors will be limited to no more than 48 hours duty per week, down from 56 hours - which is the limit for FD? I recall this, as I am sure i read that some hospitals don't have the manpower to cope when the rules come in this year, I think.
As for the complexities of your rosters and rotas - I could not say - what have you heard?
SLF = livestock? I like the idea!
flipster
I apologise if I got it all wrong but I thought that I read that working hours limits for dockers'...doctors', sorry, is being brought in line with the EU WTD. Doctors will be limited to no more than 48 hours duty per week, down from 56 hours - which is the limit for FD? I recall this, as I am sure i read that some hospitals don't have the manpower to cope when the rules come in this year, I think.
As for the complexities of your rosters and rotas - I could not say - what have you heard?
SLF = livestock? I like the idea!
flipster