Anyone starting Cabair integrated in March?

[Balticsea]

Is anyone here going to start Cabair integrated in March? Especially any of the guys that attended the assessment on the 18th Dec? :)
I'm just going to have a meeting with my bank on Thursday, haven't really got any idea what they're going to say :uhoh: my parents have promised to help with securing though :E

[maxdrypower]

If you get to cabair seek out the instructor who looks most like George Michael Circa 1985 and ask him if he can explain (again ) the Airbus A320
Emergency landing on water button . He was overheard stood talking to a young lady at a well known bournemouth buttie wagon explaining why the pilot of the aircraft that landed in the hudson is not a hero as he just pressed the aforementioned button and let the aircraft do the work.
Hope he's not an instrument instructor

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

At this point I'd like to explode.

I don't have the energy, someone else explain.


WWW

[a797]

I can explain, www is talking about the world pilot shortage that has been a constant thorn in airlines sides for years now. The FTO's are the experts on the matter and you should take it up with them, just make sure you have a cheque for 80 grand with you. :ugh:

[preduk]

my parents have promised to help with securing though

I hope your parents have been informed of the lack of jobs, unsecure job market, crashing airlines and low passenger numbers expected over the next couple of years.

If they are still so keen then good luck with the recession!

[Reluctant737]

So answer me this guys - if this chap's beginning an integrated course in March, that would put him for completion some time around May/June 2010. If you're all such experts at predicting the economic state for 18 months' time, then how come two years ago I didn't hear any of you mentioning this current 'crisis'?

There is no right or wrong answer regarding whether now is a good time to train or not, it's anybody's guess.

However, many people don't seem to understand how bad the current global recession is going to get before it picks up - it is going to become a LOT worse before it even begins getting better, and I should say it will be at LEAST another year before we see an improvement. With the review at the end of the year we should see an improvement in the housing market at least which is one of the many key foundations of the economy. Hopefully things will begin to pick up thereon.

But who knows. We're only human, and unfortunately not psychic :ugh:

Good luck with your training!

Ad

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

In the words of someone far more eloquent than my good self:-

"Madder than Mad Jock McMad, the winner of this years Mr Madman competition....."

But good luck all the same. :)

[hughesyd]

I dont think you are quite getting it, even if the economy picks up in a year, the world of aviation doesnt all of a sudden have a mass of jobs available. I too am having to pick up my modular training this year but i tell you, its certainly not by choice, my exams expire in 2010 so reluctantly i have to get done. Also im lucky and have a option to keep the licence alive at least, and have another career which i can rely on.

Listen to the guys who have been in this game for many a year and they will tell you how it really is in a downturn. average trend is every 6 - 8 years for recruitment. We have just had an unprecedented few years with above average recruitment in the boom, there is only one way its going to go. Yes there will be a few jobs but remember all those guys with above 1000 hours and type rated who are out of work as we speak. Dont be under any illusions.

We all have a dream, but reality is much harder to swallow, but reality it is im afraid.
Anyone considering putting their parents house on the line, if they had any consideration should at least let them read some of the posts and threads on this forum!!.In fact , read them yourself first!!

[Bealzebub]

So what?

The flying schools are businesses that need to survive. They only do that by selling their products. Those that they employ can only pay their mortgages/rent and other bills if their employer has the income to pay them.

If this chap or his parents are able to raise the funds to pay for this course, then that is their business. If they want to go out and buy a Mercedes SL for the same sum of money, that is equally their business.

Whether this chap or his parents are relying on this course to provide a short term return is something that is incumbent on them to research and decide. The poster isn't asking for an assessment of the market place or more "expert" opinion, he simply wants to know if anyone else is expecting to start on the course he is proposing to join.

[Andy_20]

Well said Bealzebub, i do agree with some of the comments above but this thread isnt where it should be.

All the best at Cabair :ok:

[smith]

my parents have promised to help with securing though

I hope your parents have been informed of the lack of jobs, unsecure job market, crashing airlines and low passenger numbers expected over the next couple of years.


...... and remember cabair's coat is on a shaky peg at the moment also, so don't pay it all up front mate, your ma and da's beautiful semi could be seriously put at risk so that you can wear your three stripes down the vegetable aisle is Tesco.

Back to the point now, NO I will not be joining you at Cabair in March!

[Balticsea]

hmph, how come this thread's turned into one of those recession and economic moanings this forum and the whole web seems to be full of these days? :hmm: I wasn't asking whether in your opinion I'm doing the right thing and whether I'm going to have a job in 2010 :ugh: rest assured that being at this point these things have been thought of long since!

[Reluctant737]

hughesyd,

That's exactly my point - there is no such thing as a 'boom' in the aviation industry. There are times when there are a few more jobs dotted around here and there, but as a whole, it has never and will never be easy to secure a job as an a commercial pilot, airline or otherwise. It simply means that one must change their tact somewhat, from sending out mountains of CVs when the market is 'good', to moving back into good old networking and accepting you'll probably be flying something that's not made by Boeing or Airbus when times are tough. There will always be jobs around for the 250 hour cadet, and perhaps in one of the so called 'booms' these guys from XL, Sterling, Futura, Zoom etc would have an advantage. Unfortunately, as 90% of these guys have less than 5,000 hours on type, they are at no advantage to anybody else, including cadets, because the jobs on such hardware will ONLY go to the very experienced guys. Just take a look at what's happening with Jet2 - many hopes were raised only to be thwarted when the harsh reality kicked in.

If anything, low houred pilots may in fact be in a better position as I know of only one airline currently recruiting for the 737, and that's my airline. And I know we prefer the less experienced guys because they tend to stay here longer, as opposed to leaving when the going becomes a little easier to tackle.

And apart from that, the only other jobs around are found through contacts - somebody might have 10,000 hours, but if most of that time is in the airlines with little to zilch spent in the general aviation side of things, it will be very difficult to make the transition now. It's perhaps ironic that some of these people were the guys who, many years ago, swore they would never accept anything less than a jet, who now find themselves in this situation where there is nothing available to them because they closed their minds to the majority of the aviation industry, where the jobs do still remain when times are tough. But hey, that's a totally different discussion.

Again, good luck with your training, and try to get out there and meet as many people as you can.

Ad

[n.dave]

Hi Balticsea,

I got a phone call from Cabair last week asking me whether I be starting the course on 06/03/2009. My reply was No. So far as I know there will 5 students be starting their course in March (you, and 4 from Flybe Cadets).

I think you will easily get a loan if your parents promised to help out via securing it with a house or something. This due to the fact that house value is worth a lot more than the loan you are asking, say 60 grand? But bear in mind that if you are unable to pay off the loan then the bank will take your/the house. Banks are just doing the business!!

If you do start in March, I will probably see you 2 months later.

Good Luck with Cabair

n.dave

[Reluctant737]

Topslide6,

In a word, yes, I am seriously suggesting just that. Whether you have 250 hours, or 5,000 hours, you aint getting a job on a jet in Europe now. I am certainly not attempting to make our experienced colleagues out to be anything less than they are, because they deserve as much respect as their logbooks demonstrate.

Perhaps a better way to approach the argument is this - in better times, experience puts you in better stead. However, when there are no jobs for pilots under, say 7,000 hours, 10,000 hours or whatever, ANYONE who falls below that benchmark very quickly becomes 'just the next guy', regardless of the number of hours.

As I said, have a quick look at the Jet2 thread - there are 7,000 hour Captains applying and being rejected. There are cadets being rejected. They are all in the same boat unfortunately, and unless you have one hell of a logbook, you're not even going to get a look in.

And I say cadets may be at a slight advantage in the grand scheme of things, because you must consider every option - my airline is currently an option for cadets, but not really for experienced guys, because we know 99% of type rated experienced furloughed guys will just leave when they can find better T+Cs elsewhere.

So my personal belief is that the best position to be in right now, is straight out of flight school/have a logbook exceeding 10,000 hours (or whatever the current benchmark is)/have very good contacts, or a combination of the above, although I should be very surprised if somebody has achieved the first two hand in hand!

Personally I'll be staying with FR for as long as I can see - it's about as safe a place to be as you can get, and it pays the bills easily with enough left to take the family out for dinner. It's rather funny how many of the original 'Ryanair bashers' are now 'bashing' at our front door desperate for work. I personally don't see the big deal surrounding T+Cs and how good or bad they are. If you want REAL hard work as a pilot then travel down to Venezuela and try some mission work flying a 172 in and out of 200 metre strips lifting the thing off the back of the drag curve for equivilant £600 a month and ****ty living conditions. Ryanair's a luxury methinks! :ok:

Aviation rewards those who are open minded enough and work hard to get where they want to be. The others? Well, take your pick of moaning sob stories on this website. Things have a habit of catching up with you in life sooner or later, so keep your options open and err, KEEP YOUR OPTIONS OPEN!

All the best, Ad

[Reluctant737]

Topslide6,

I think perhaps I was a little blunt with what I said, and yes, there ARE jobs out there for people who have 250 hours and for people with multi-thousand hour logbooks as well. I can just see which way this industry is turning and it's not like the good old days (unfortunately) where you earned your wings through pure merit, then worked you way up the ladder to a happy retirement. It happens for some, that there's no denying, and good luck to anybody who wants to make a fruitful, enjoyable career out of aviation - I certainly plan on doing my best.

I would disagree, or would rather adjust to suit my opinion, what you said regarding training. I personally think anybody embarking upon an integrated course having had a look at what the experienced guys are saying on here is not only being incredibly foolish, but very unfairly playing a serious game of Russian Roulette with their parents' mortgage/life savings etc.

However, I think that if, as eire mentioned in his post above, it has come to THAT time when life seems to dictate that you begin your training, GO MODULAR. Each to their own, but I think if you're hell destined on getting cracking the modular route is the way to go, because let's face it, yes there are jobs out there, but not like there have been in the past, so the most sensible route in my opinion is to get your training done as cheaply as possible. Of course you must also strike that fine balance of, most airlines (and indeed most companies as far as I can tell) prefer to see your training conducted through one school, so perhaps consider taking a particular organisations' modular program. Or simply do your training bit by bit as cheaply as you can.

It's a right old circus these days aint it :ugh:

[mad_jock]

Frankly!! what I have said? Have i been pissed on a wannabies form again ranting about stupidity?


After reading this thread I maybe forced to a drink a couple of bottles of red though.

If I was you I would do it modular and hang off the expensive bits until it starts picking up. you can get up to ppl ATPL theory passed for under 10k if you work you shouldn't even need to take a loan out. If you don't even run it to the line with valid dates you can string it out over 2-4 years.

And I never ever want to see the face again of a 23year old when they get told that they have just spent 30K of thier folks money and the company has just gone tits up. Unfortunatley I saw this at Gatwick at lunch time at the ATPL exams when 15 lads got given the news that there FTO had gone tits up that morning. We are due some training providers going tits up very soon.

[Reluctant737]

Mad_jock, you keep on drinking mate, it does help numb the pain! Unfortunately that is one oblivion I am going to have to go without as I'm on duty in 11 hours! :ok:

[mad_jock]

Lucky you I haven't burn't any Jet A in weeks. Aircraft missing its props.

Was even considering going to burn some avgas and see if I can remember how a carbheat works.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Ah sorry Jocko, but didn't you win it a few years ago, so it couldn't have been you I was talking about.... :}

[Tom Power]

Ill be out there doing my PPL... Starting in 2 weeks...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Wannabe Zombie Army are unstoppable.

Armed with £70,000 debt arrows they refuse to be daunted by any threats of reason, logic, common sense or, even, history. No advice can stop them. No situation can deter them. No argument can penetrate them.

They are relentless in their aim of supporting the foreign owners of Britains Integrated flying schools and their minions.


Nothing will waver them. For they have a dream. A seat in a flightdeck of a Boeing or an Airbus for there be no other worthy.



Hail them.

Pity them.

Do not waste time reasoning with them for it as futile as persuading the snake not to slither. Wannabes are by their nature and their profession unstoppable.


WWW

[BitMoreRightRudder]

know of only one airline currently recruiting for the 737, and that's my airline. And I know we prefer the less experienced guys because they tend to stay here longer, as opposed to leaving when the going becomes a little easier to tackle.


reluctant737

You honestly reckon thats why FR prefer 250hr cadets?!

I joined ezy as a 250hr cadet, they wanted me because I was a cheap option for the first six months. FR want you for the same reason mate. Glad you enjoy FR though, a job is a job right now :ok:

[JohnRayner]

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Is the voice of realism tiring of his role?

Or is this just a karmic thing?

Thumbs up to you WWW, there aren't many people in your position who'd bother to do what you do on behalf of pilots as yet unbreeched. And in the face of such stick as well....

:ok:

[Reluctant737]

Not that I wish to pick any bones with you WWW, but I'm assuming you were never one of these living dead?

I understand that circumstances were different then, what with the self improver route, the discontinuation of, incidentally, I consider to be one of the worst decisions ever made by those in the great nest of UK aviation.

But in saying that, wouldn't you have been tempted? After all, what's perhaps worn off through 9 years of flying was once there as hot as the fire of hell itself. I believe you may be applying your own personal scenario to a completely different era.

As you said, welcome to the new world...

[DH-110]

Just an update to the first post.

Fifteen students started on March 6th including 4 sponsored cadets from Flybe. IWish them all good luck?

[quant]

At this point I'd like to explode.

I don't have the energy, someone else explain.


WWW

breathe www breathe their you go! Remember you have done your best to educate people regarding the present situation and it's up to them to make the final decision. ;)

[Mach086]

I hope those 15 cadets aren't reading these posts.

Come on guys, give them at least a little support. And congratulations to the Flybe cadets. Hopefully they won't be in the pool too long after completion.

[kniloc]

Yeah good luck to all the 15 of them especially the ones who aren't Flybe sponsored. Be ware, Cabairs favouritism of the Flybe guys knows no bounds. In flight school you will be crapped on from a great height and will have to sit in the crew room day after day while they get to do all the flying. Keep hasseling Phil Bell and keep a note of anytime you get a flight taken off you and given to one of the sponsored guys. Happy flying though!

[Mach086]

Shame if that is true - in any flight school. Everyone should be equal.

Are you speaking from experience kniloc

[PILOTDAN1992]

yes, good luck to them :ok: also do you need a guarantour when taking out a loan for you ATPL??? thanks guys :)

[Mach086]

Pilot Dan,

any loan for the amount you would need for ATPL (circa70K) will always be secured (unless you go to a loan shark and secure it with your life!).

So yes, the guarantor is needed in order to secure the loan - usually parents with a nice semi AND with equity to match loan amount plus a more complex formula to determine the worth of the house during this current economic crisis.

tough times dan

[kniloc]

Unfortunately it is true and I am speaking from experience. I watched as sponsored guys who started 2 months behind me then finished 2 months before me, and I wasn't the last to finish out of my class by a long way!:ugh:

[OneIn60rule]

It's true.

When you have a contract with so and so like most big schools. You have to prioritize the sponsored etc and give the back seat to the modulars.

1/60

[Mach086]

Thats sad. No wonder the big 4 (OAT, Cab, FTE, CTC) get slated day-in day-out - even without discussing the costs.

At least you get a nice uniform to wear!

[PILOTDAN1992]

Cheers guys :p lol I am 16 and so it is going to be around two years untill i go to do my ATPL. Do you think that if i keep trying for a sponsorship i will get one ??? and if i did would i still have to pay loads out?? :)

[kniloc]

Nice uniform my :mad:! We were stuck in baby blue at Cabair. Every time you went to tescos or anywhere, people thought you were security!:{

With regards to waiting for a sponsorship, no one is really going to give you one untill things are definately getting better in the economy in which case you might be just as well self-funding. The problem is that nowadays sponsorships aren't that good. You will still pay for most of your course and when you start working you will be bonded to the airline for up to 5 years on a crap salary.

Having said that if you do manage to get a sponsorship then go for it cos a reduced salary is better than none at all:ok:

[Mach086]

Danny Boy,

I went for the Cabair/Flybe in 2007 in order to start in Jan 2008. Fell at the final hurdle :{

The offer at the time was £60K paid for by yours truly, £18K paid for by Flybe - bonded for 3 years.

So yeah, you still need a lot of money.

In all honestly, unless 50'000 pilots suddenly got the plague (WWW could present us with a graph that it is actually possible :ok:), no airline will, especially in the UK, offer the full package like BA used to do.

[benish]

So what?

The flying schools are businesses that need to survive. They only do that by selling their products. Those that they employ can only pay their mortgages/rent and other bills if their employer has the income to pay them.

If this chap or his parents are able to raise the funds to pay for this course, then that is their business. If they want to go out and buy a Mercedes SL for the same sum of money, that is equally their business.

Whether this chap or his parents are relying on this course to provide a short term return is something that is incumbent on them to research and decide. The poster isn't asking for an assessment of the market place or more "expert" opinion, he simply wants to know if anyone else is expecting to start on the course he is proposing to join.

This economy has gone tits up for many a reason but reasons such as lack of consumer confidence and because of the extreme negative media coverage do not help one bit, which can directly relate to some of the negative yet realistic and helpful advice given out by you guys on here, who seem to spend all your day searching the web for a negative bits of news and posting it on here. (and there was me thinking this website is where I can talk about flying and not about economics!)

If we want this economy to get better we must carry on spending. Spending will create jobs and then more output will be supplied in the economy. The above quote typifies this. If we tell this lad to do one and not to spend his money it could mean another unemployed person out there (a Cabair employee). If he wants to begin his training let him, its his choice and I'm sure he's weighed up his options.

I myself am beginning a modular route next month, I'm going to Florida for a PPL and 100 hours. I know its highly unlikely ill get a job any time soon, and its even unlikely I will find a part time job at Morrisons when I begin my ATPLs in June. But now is the right time for me. (I have the funds!) I want to have my qualification as a pilot before I settle down and move in / marry / start a family with my girl friend.
If I were to delay my pilot training there are no highly paid jobs out there at the minute, that wouldn't involve me doing a university degree or some college course which creates more debt, which I could use to fund a marriage/house/family.
That's why I will do it now, whilst I'm young and whilst my girl friend is also learning at uni towards her career.

I know Im going to get the "so why dont you just do a uni degree and go for piloting in 10 years when im settled down" lark. Well I'll reply now. My sister and all her age group are just finishing uni and at the minute I work with about 10 uni graduates, issuing airline tickets for thomas cook, and none of them are managing to find a job/have found a job in there line of degree. Jobs are just as scarce when it comes to uni, so qualified pilots are not much different. So Uni is a no goer on my front!

[skyhighbird]

Benish,

I like your point. I stare at 6 screens filled with coloured graphs that would have the wee weasley welshman really excited.

I watch in despair that no one is spending! Talk about chicken and the egg.

I like your confidence - you seem relalistic enough to know that you probably won't get a job immediately at the end of it. Providing you have the back up funds to keep your ratings up-to-date then why not! Good luck to you.

Warning.

You-know-who will be here very shortly to rip your post to shreds! (only joking ;))

[benish]

Ill look forward to it, skyhighbird!

I've been involved in an argument before with a few on here, I came to the conclusion that most found training difficult and found it tough to find the funds so they bicker at and pick on wannabes!
(In no way am I scrutinizing the helpful and very good advice given on this website).

I'm only trying to express my point that the economy will in no means get better with so much negativity, and the fact that this website is here to discuss flying and not the economy!

[PILOTDAN1992]

ok,
Thanks Mach and all other contributers, what do you think would be the best thing for me to do?. this is me, Danny, 16, crazy about being a pilot wanting to go to cabair, i understand so do lopts of others but just wondering what do you think is the best thing to do??. Are you a pilot? cheers m8

[mof_vipe]

Hi. New boy here. After reading all your threads which answered a few questions for me already, maybe you can help me answer a few more.

Id do anything to be a pilot (well most things) been looking at where to go what to study and of course COST, the only thing between me and starting tomorrow.

Looked on cabair website which looks really good and going to a seminar soon. Also going to oxford for one this saturday. There is also a pilot school in orlando florida which looks good but i think its only because its like half the price as the ones in the UK.

Im 24 and need to get my ass in gear otherwise i will continue life unhappy.

Anyone in my situation or once was? any advice will do what should i start thinking about? kind regards Lee

[benish]

hi mate. best thing to do is read the stickies at the top of the forum and i would go to the seminars to get a basic understanding of all the training involved.

once you have done that come back here and ask more specific questions!

good luck

[Tyneradar]

Will cabair have any aircraft left for perspective parents to re mortgage their houses for?