why is it that....

[Dash7Ace]

... all the credit seems to be showered upon the bloke on the left seat while the chap on the right seat seems to be almost left at sea, when it comes to incidents/accidents like the hudson issue today?
by all means it is a two man operation to start with and what is so shocking to note, is that hardly anything was mentioned about the first officer, or the senior first officer in this case as it may have been.
all credit to the 4 bars and given the circumstances i guess it was down to out of the box, cut the crap short kind of stuff and they must have gone with their gut so as to speak.
still not clear as to who was the pilot handling/flying or what ever airbooos calls it, and i think any mention of the crew should definitely include the F/O or the SF/O as well. it was nice and refreshing to hear the skipper of the BA 777 that went on a glide and cut the grass, mention not only his senior first officer who was handling pilot , but also the first officer on safety/relief duty who was on the jumpseat, at the press briefing after the fiasco.
truly shows the class and professionalism of the skipper and i would think the same must have applied here in this case as well.
but the press as always, and the campers at the back at most, almost always congradulate and cheer and mention of the captain or the pilot, as opposed to both the guys up the pointy end.
must be properly addressed to these clowns that, in an airline environment it is not just the 4 bars that take the cake but the 3 or 2 bars next to it as well, since its a one for all all for one mentality that we have been grilled with.
hope this wasn't long and by no means sour grapes here or anything, but just wanted to get your views and imputs into this rather forgotten side of things so as to put it...
all yours guys...and 2 thumbs up to the crew, on a textbook watery ditching with a postcard watery picture :D:ok::ok:

[DownIn3Green]

What???:confused::confused:

[Funnel Cloud]

I assume you're a First Officer then..... :bored:

[14greens]

Bit like the soux City DC10 incident, bloke who did the most work was a positioning pilot who was sat down the back, came up front to offer any help and was him that pointed out they had lost all hydraulics, and then came up with the idea of using centre and pod engine power to adjust the pitch, not the bloke in the left seat

Interesting debate on Radio 2 as to is the bloke a "hero" or not, and was he not just doing what he gets paid for? Nobody doubting the crew did a blody good job in putting it down safe, but does that make him a hero? is ditching in the annual sim check for the company i wonder? bet it is from now on!

No mention of the cabin crew! they are the ones that look after back end after the thing came to a halt! Thing is they are not ex military and dont have the interesting name!!!!

[411A]

It all comes down to....just whom is in charge.
He (or she) gets the kudos if it all goes according to plan, and the lumps if it does not.
Ain't gonna change.:rolleyes:

In this (seemingly) day and age, where these MCC courses teach everyone is equal:rolleyes::}, incidents like this one on the Hudson definitely prove quite the opposite.
This ain't gonna change, either.

In other words (and yes, I know a few won't like it), co-pilots, dime a dozen, really skilled Commanders, few and far between.:ok:

[Dash7Ace]

funnel cloud...
mate, who gives a toss if i am a first officer, second officer, junior first officer, relief, safety, 4 stripes, no stripes, stripes with a star ... it wasn't part of the plan on shifting focus.
it was just a discussion to have a look at how the folks at the print and the campers at the back have this rather short and stunted look on things when put through hell and back, as it must have been in this case.
if it was the first officer or who ever who handled it, all tops to him, and rightly so too..but the word" hero" and fan clubs popping all over the joint just for one bloke seems to be a bit odd, don't you think?
well its my 0.5 cents worth...
;)

[FlyboyUK]

Perhaps it all comes down to the press who forever quote "the Pilot" in ever aviation article they write.

[Dash7Ace]

nevertheless...equal amount of credit to BOTH the left and right seat, and just to iron out a few creases here for the likes of the dinosaurs who like to think that they are God's gift to flying, if the **** hits the fan, BOTH the guys get the kitchen sink, regardless of 4 or 3/2 stripes. likewise, if they pull it off as brilliantly as in this case, then BOTH the guys SHOULD get the cake with the cherries on top and the icing to go with it too. they can have and eat the whole bloody thing together, that's what they were put there for, not for a single jingle " i can do it all type of guy " who needn't have a F/O with him them in the first place.
let him fly FiFi around alone then and lets have a laugh :}
CRM/MCC is about making you work together while making the best out of a rather hopeless situation and the last thing we would want is a Quadrosauntaus who thinks he can pull it all off without the scrapes...mate you know i'm talking to you, give it up and take a break..lots of lovely islands in this part of the world, you should seriously think about it..and get a ship please next time round...fly safe and keep smiling

[411A]

...but the word" hero" and fan clubs popping all over the joint just for one bloke seems to be a bit odd, don't you think?


Can't disagree with these thoughts.
"Hero' is, in my opinion, well overused in the media today.
The Captain was just doing his job...nothing more nor less.

It did actually turn out quite well, however.

[vanHorck]

many reports refer to the crew, some refer to the pilots other to the captain.

Stop worrying about it.

The Captain happens to be one of the pilots and he's ultimately responsible for the aircraft so I think it's logical.

Once we know who was the flying pilot it will either get "worse" or the FO will be made the hero

No worries!

[Pace]

Interesting debate on Radio 2 as to is the bloke a "hero" or not, and was he not just doing what he gets paid for? Nobody doubting the crew did a blody good job in putting it down safe, but does that make him a hero? is ditching in the annual sim check for the company i wonder? bet it is from now on!

It always amuses me how the media use the word hero.

To me a hero is someone who does something they fear. So a hero is a person who is scared of water yet wades into a lake to save someone not a champion swimmer who does the same.

A hero is someone who risks their lives to save someone elses life not someone who gets into a situation where equally they are saving their own life and in that process saving others. They may have superb skills in doing so but does that make them a hero?

If a car driver has a high speed tyre blow out on the motorway and through his driving skills brings the car to a safe halt he is NOT a hero. he has saved himself and the car passengers through his driving skills in a situation he had no choice to be in.
If he gets out of the car which then bursts into flames and then runs back to get a passenger out he then becomes a HERO.

As in this case there is NO choice in the matter you do all you can to save the situation. In that sense hero is innapropriate.

Having crashed into the river the action of walking back twice into a sinking aircraft to check for remaining passenegers would be the heroic bit.

But hey just my take

Pace

[Starbear]

It always amuses me how the media use the word hero. Not just the media of course, the main thread of this topic is littered with the word.

Pace, you have exactly it right and eloquently explained too. It is a very difficult point to raise and discuss but you managed it perfectly. Nothing you have said detracts, and I know that was your intention, in anyway from the consummate skills displayed by the crew of that flight. Well said.
I put the BA 777 crew in this same bracket.

[airfoilmod]

Perhaps a tad picky, but "centre and pod engine" on Sioux City ax
wouldn't have worked. Twas #2 (centre) engine what failed.

[Macker-1ie]

thats all fair enough, you think your hard done by, think of the crew that work on the other side of the cockpit door. as a cabin crew member myself i know the level of experience and skill the captain F/O and THE CABIN CREW must of had between them in order to evacuate all of the pax's safetly!

So while the work load going on in the cockpit is obviously stressfull and demands the excellent focus and flying ability, maybe some of the cabin crew also need to be commened for the role in getting everyone out of the a/c safetly!!!

[Nigd3]

Crew did a very good job, as they have been trained to do.
Whoever made the decision to drop it in the drink made a good one.
Pace summed up the use of the word "hero", very well.

It's nice to be able to read about a happy outcome after an aircraft crash for once.

[lomapaseo]

I agree with the pondered definition of Hero in the posts above.

But in times of extreme distress the world needs heros to show that we can rise above it. Thus the word is easily applied as a form of human closure that we have beaten the odds.

Most pilots would simply say a job well done and I expect would have done the same.

[Rainboe]

You have the plaudits (reluctantly I expect) when you are the Captain of the ship. You also take the blame. Is Captain Smith of the Titanic remembered for his long and safe career at sea, or for his final night in command? WHO, essentially, carried the can for that one? The decision on where to go and how to do it was down to the Captain only. It was not a joint discussion, CRM-friendly, recyclable, dolphin friendly, biodegradeable, round table 'let's take a vote on it'-discussion on the flight deck. One pilot carried the responsibility. There is absolutely no point in carping about it. That's how it is, and that is how the news organisations see it.

[Pace]

So while the work load going on in the cockpit is obviously stressfull and demands the excellent focus and flying ability, maybe some of the cabin crew also need to be commened for the role in getting everyone out of the a/c safetly!!!

Totally agree! Once the aircraft had landed in the Hudson the actions of the Crew and Cabin crew in insuring the evacuation of the aircraft before their own safety was Heroic.

Pace

[Tight Slot]

rainboe - for once I agree! Thats where the buck stops. End of. Jolly good work by the crew too. Landing onto water in direct law (one thinks) good work!

[Der absolute Hammer]

Captain Sully Sullenberger III did a most excellent job.

[Bondgirl78]

The pilot who landed that plane IS a hero in my opinion, cause according to many of you pilots...none of you would have had a hope in hell of doing what he did. Well maybe not all of you, but many pilots have expressed surprise that it was actually "possible". Not really the attitude to have considering you spend a lot of your flying time over water!!:rolleyes:

Yes he did his job, but he did his job perfectly and he saved everyones life. To save peoples lives makes someone a hero, and believe me if it had been one of your loved ones on that flight you too would not question this aspect. :ugh:

I

[choppercopper 99]

Dash7Ace,

I couldn't agree with you more!!!! The cockpit is a team environment and the praise should be to both pilots!!!!

THEY did a fantastic job!!!!:D:D

And to the rest of you critics, YES I am a FO and proud of it!

[Flightlevel001]

Oh well I suppose us FO's will just have to wait our turn to wear 4 stripes, then we will get the praise! Rainboe is right in what he says though, it works the other way too if things go wrong...

WE have no doubt that the guy in the RHS was working just as hard as our hero in the left. The public might not, as in we are known as 'co-pilots', just sitting there waiting to do what we are told... thanks mainly to the media.... :rolleyes:

Flightdeck aside though, I think its disgusting how the media have almost ignored the effort of the Cabin Crew in all of this. Yes the FD got it down in one piece, but after that the survival of the passengers was down to the professionalism of the CC. They did a fantastic job getting all of those people off safely.

[Cusco]

News report BBC tonight had an interview with a survivor in hospital who said the co-pilot had taken the shirt off his back to wrap around the survivor who was cold.

Oh yeah! I thought till said survivor pulled back hospital sheet to reveal, wrapped around his shoulders a white shirt with 3-bar epaulettes.

Hats off to RHS guy.

Cusco

[Rananim]

Bit like the sioux City DC10 incident, bloke who did the most work was a positioning pilot who was sat down the back, came up front to offer any help and was him that pointed out they had lost all hydraulics, and then came up with the idea of using centre and pod engine power to adjust the pitch, not the bloke in the left seat


Thats not quite correct.Haynes instinctively used the throttles to stop the thing going on its back before Fitch came up.All were brilliant.This remains the greatest example of a crew utilizing airmanship,teamwork and inspiration to save lives and it should be quoted accurately.I would put the Gimli glider in second place as a remarkable example of grace under pressure.Perhaps we can find a slot for Capt "Sully" in the list once the NTSB's work is done.Providing the crew werent part of the cause(and I dont see that happening),their actions were textbook airmanship and undoubtedly saved many lives.It just proves that airmanship and a bit of sang-froid are what counts when the chips are down.I hope the young pilots out there with their heads buried in the SOP manual will remember this.

[Piper_Driver]

I think "Sully" also deserves the hero badge for making a tour of the cabin twice after the thing was down to be sure everyone was off the plane. He was the last one off the sinking ship.

[lomapaseo]

CNN is running a viewer survey asking for views about whether they should be called hero pilots. Just log on their site and quote your views expressed here with attribution

[411A]

There is absolutely no point in carping about it. That's how it is, and that is how the news organisations see it.

And, it ain't gonna change, no matter how many folks with three stripes carry on moaning....so, get used to it.:E

[amber 1]

And, it ain't gonna change, no matter how many folks with three stripes carry on moaning....so, get used to it.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

Your day will come......maybe......if you're good enough.:rolleyes:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

No he's had his day, that's why he's always on here telling us how great he is!

[bdairbusdriver]

Pfffhhh, the applause should go to the one handling the plane in this particular instance
:mad:, from my experience handling the aircraft has always been a lot easier then handling ECAM drills, QRH and FCOM's!

[411A]

Regardless who was PF/Handling pilot - surely the Captain would have taken control almost immediately after the incident?


Without a doubt.
In this 'new' MCC airline environment:rolleyes: basic facts and operating procedures in most emergency situations dictate who is flying, regardless of what some other crew members might desire, or think is appropriate.

Without knowing the details, it sounds like it was mostly the Captain's show - the FO would have been relegated to what limited support duties he could provdide in that short space of time.

Yup.
It's called Command Responsibility.

The company says so.
The regulatory authority says so.

Case closed.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I hope the young pilots out there with their heads buried in the SOP manual will remember this.

The S for Standard sums it up: when things go beyond standard you have to hope that the guy in the LHS has been there, seen it, done it, got the t-shirt as no amount of SOP knowledge will save you when there isn't a checklist or procedure to follow.

Incidentally, it was also a LEFT turn to align with the river: if the Capt had let the FO fly it as he / she started the sector as nominated PF, they would have had a great view of a roof panel full of switches during the critical turn!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Or to look at it another way, without wishing to undermine the old Ego-saur (heaven forbid) - who cares? They got down in one piece.

From reports it would appear the F/O was a very experienced guy, had the F/O been PF at the time of the failure, the captain may well have elected to leave flying the a/c to him while he considered the available areas to get down safely. Whatever the captain did, he made the right choice.

Does anyone honestly give a :mad: who landed the thing?

[Graybeard]

His father was interviewed on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" last night. Skiles has 26 years flying, IIRC, and was no doubt a Capt. in the better years of Allegheny/Piedmont/AmericaWest.

30 years ago I was told Eastern Airlines, RIP, had had 13 major accidents, and in every one of them the First Officer was flying. Turns out the F/O's weren't bad pilots, but the Captains were just lousy copilots.

GB

[411A]

...but the Captains were just lousy copilots.


Quite true, I suspect....:}

[johnnyDB]

term 'hero' idd, it's not as if he sacrificed his own life by diving into a fire to save someone.
He tried to save his own ass, and in doing so, happend to save the passengers.
Still a good job though!!

[Rainboe]

There's always one! He'd be the villain if he failed, so if people want to call him a hero when he succeeded, for goodness sake don't rain on their parade! There's enough bad news around at the moment- stop trying to spoil their triumph and relief. I can tell you, not once would he have used that word to describe himself. It was an uninvited situation that he used his skill to overcome. All he will feel is relief, and profound questioning of himself as to whether he could have done better or avoided the situation altogether. So stop trying to throw a wet blanket on it!

[411A]

He'd be the villain if he failed, so if people want to call him a hero when he succeeded, for goodness sake don't rain on their parade! There's enough bad news around at the moment- stop trying to spoil their triumph and relief. I can tell you, not once would he have used that word to describe himself. It was an uninvited situation that he used his skill to overcome. All he will feel is relief, and profound questioning of himself as to whether he could have done better or avoided the situation altogether. So stop trying to throw a wet blanket on it!

So very well said.
Captain Sully did just fine, so did his very able First Officer...and not to forget, his very able cabin crew.
Simply put...a job very well done...by ALL.:ok::ok:

[Brian Abraham]

It is always the case that the chief is the one who gets the plaudits, and is also the one who cops it in the neck when things turn to worms. Matters not whether its a general leading a battle in war, president of a country, or the captain of a ship/aircraft. It goes without saying that the people they lead have had a hand in the success or failure of the enterprise. Should the leader receive some recognition as a result you will often find that he/she will tell you "I wear it in recognition of the efforts of my country/men and women/company/platoon/crew". We are endowed with more than our share of egotists though, however kudos to all in this event.