Was the Nomad really that bad?

[DIVINE WIND]

Just like to get some feed back from those that have experienced it. This thread is inspired by Chimbu Warrior who said that the Harbin Y-12 made the Nomad look like cutting edge technology.
I remember some of the accidents, the four corners publicity and Army pilots refusing to fly it.
To those who have been there, tell us how you really feel about this aircraft and what you think about its coming back.
Cheers,
DW.

[Capt Claret]

N22 not too bad, N24 not so good.

Fuel gauges (4 off) with a face the size of a 5 cent piece.

Some instrument gauges had 1/4 increments, others 1/5.

Sharp edges every where, so skinned knuckles were the norm.

N22 had infinite flap selections available from 0 to 40 degrees. N24 was known to be longitudinally unstable about the Flap 20 range, therefore only 3 flap positions, 0, 10 for take-off and 40 for landing. However in about 1994/5 after another airworthiness scare, the aircraft (N24) was limited to Flap 10, which gave a very small speed margin when flying an approach in bumpy conditions. Flap 10 max speed being only just above Vapp.

[bushy]

The Nomad was apparently ok until the blackhawk became available, then it became unsafe for military pilots.
Civilians can fly them ok.

[tinpis]

Good enough fer government work. :ok:
Some young lady is restoring one up at the old Gardens museum if anyone is interested.

[empacher48]

Currently flying the N24, its not a STO machine, but does the L pretty good! :ok: We've got the new flap Mod which allows us to use full flap again, instead of none or 10 degrees.

We have had no problems in operating them over the last 24 years, as long as they are maintained and operated as the manufacturer specified. We had one aircraft that performed a scheduled run on behalf of Air NZ, and had better reliability than the Metro/Saab that also performed the run.

Certainly having the enhanced B17 on board greatly improves the hot & high performance, with an OAT close to 30 degrees C at 2500' AMSL, we can easily get full rated power out the engines, the other without the enhanced turbines seems to run out of puff with those conditions. Plus the added bonus is the fuel consumption with two engines is less than the C208B. Maintenance is also cheaper than the C208B too.

The NG N24 which Gippsland Aero are developing would be a great machine! :ok:

[the wizard of auz]

After a little bit of research recently, I would have to agree with you there empacher48. talking about cost efficiency and capability.
I'm not sure about it from a pilots view as I have only flown the van and not the Nomad. keen to fly the nomad though.

[Stationair8]

They were unsafe for the army to fly, but didn't they crosshire a civilian one in to use as for parachute duties?

[empacher48]

I'm not sure about it from a pilots view as I have only flown the van and not the Nomad. keen to fly the nomad though

I'll be honest and say the Nomad was the easiest twin I've flown, for a single pilot operation IFR or VFR, it is has a lot of simple systems to use. Being able to use full flap is fantastic - much more stable in the approach than the 10 degrees we were limited to. 65 knots in the flare in the ol' gal is a lot better than 90kts+ at MLW!

It will be a really really good addition to the Airvan, and with the changes to the Nomad which GA will make, it will be a lot better than the originals I fly. Plus the product support GA are going to provide (based on how they have been with our Airvans) it will certainly be a winner! :ok:

[max1]

Skydived out of one down Picton way about 14 years ago.

[ozbiggles]

Bushy
Maybe it had a bit more to do with two fatal accidents that killed 5 Aircrew?
I've also seen the photos and spoken to the pilots of the ADF Nomad with the twisted wing spar at Tindal.
I recall I think from the 4 Corners report the designer of it I think it was saying about the pilot concerns in the early days about the aircraft. His response was words to the effect of you don't listen to what pilots say about aircraft 'issues'.
But A - B, I'm sure it was a fine aircraft. The ten hours I had in it were certainly 'interesting'.

[DIVINE WIND]

I also remember the designer saying that pilots were unqualified to comment on design or something like that.
I just began flying a new C208B with G1000 set up. Interesting to hear that the N24 is more efficient.
The Caravan has had some harsh critics here. Mainly due to icing, but we now have the TKS, weeping wing. Also seems like most of the PT6 failures are in countries where you would expect average mx, at least thats what I am going to believe when I am flying accross a short stretch of ocean in winter. Then again, flying a 30 year old 402 with ten people... only flown it on one donk at light weights.
We have one guy here who flew nomads in the USA and had nothing good to say.
Jack Thompson did a doco a few years back on the testing of the Nomad, was a pretty good show.
Thanks for the replies. Looking forward to seeing the new Nomad.

[MJMJKG]

I've flown both the N22 and N24 and can honestly say it is the worst aircraft and the most dangerous I have ever flown. I hope the new version never gets further then a dream......

[prospector]

What else have you flown?? A C172??

[MJMJKG]

Yes! and in no particular order:
C150, C152, C180, C182, C185, C206, C207, C208, C210, C402, PA32, Pawnee, Agcat, Agwagon, Maule M4, M5, Beagle Airdale, Turbo Commander, B36, B55, B58, B200, MU2, Bae31,32 and 42, F27 F50, F100, A320, A321, A330, B747, B744

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Yes! and in no particular order: C150, C152, C180, C182, C185, C206, C207, C208, C210, C402, PA32, Pawnee, Agcat, Agwagon, Maule M4, M5, Beagle Airdale, Turbo Commander, B36, B55, B58, B200, MU2, Bae31,32 and 42, F27 F50, F100, A320, A321, A330, B747, B744

That would seem to be an invitation for a smartarse crack about needing to fly a BE35 to round out your expereince, but I am reluctant to use the words Bonanza and Nomad in the same sentence.

A few years I took part in a SAR exercise were I had the opportunity to talk to a highly experienced ADF accident investigator. To say he hated the Nomad with a vengence would be putting it mildly!

Dr :8

[tipsy2]

Only the brave would admit to having flown the Airdale:yuk:

FTDK, the "highly experienced ADF accident investigator" wouldn't have had a surname of a caffiene (or free) rich drink made with beans by any chance.

[Under Dog]

A very poorly designed and constructed piece of junk.Best left in the history books as a failure.

The Dog

[Wally Mk2]

I can recall back in the late 70's when I was working for Co. here at EN whom had the contract to make the N24's into serachmaster A/C. Long range tanks & the ugly bulbuss nose for the radar. Back then when they where new the scuttle butt around for those working on them said you only need a pair of tin snips & some fencing wire to fix these 'cause they are built typical Aussie style, rough & ready:) The seats at the time looked like they came off someones sun deck:)

Obviously a good A/c to some, will be evry interesting to see if Gippy's get them off the grnd again, good luck to them if they do.

Wmk2

[Capt Claret]

prospector,

next question! :p :}

[Ancient Rotorhead]

Just luv the character assassinations that occur on this forum! I managed to achieve 1000+ hrs in the " go anywhere, can't see me, twin engined, executive transport module " - otherwise known as a military Nomad.

Some good characteristics, some not-so-good characteristics. Within reason it would land on nothing, but you needed a hydraulic jack to become airborne again - 'specially when conditions were "hot'n high".

For a balanced overview I strongly recommend the article by Glen Duus on the Fourays site. www.fourays.org/features (http://www.fourays.org/features)

Personally, I wish GA the best of luck with their Nomad recreation. I hope to get another Vat of 58KIAS in one of our Company's optioned machines.

AR

[prospector]

Capt Vin Rouge

next question!

"I've flown both the N22 and N24 and can honestly say it is the worst aircraft and the most dangerous I have ever flown."

I operated an N22 for three years on many different ops, quite happily as it happens, and so did many other aeroplane drivers, for much longer periods.

Some were not overly impressed, but I have never heard it described as dangerous before, and from one who has so many types, as stated on PPrune, makes me feel quite humble to have survived such a time in such a dangerous aircraft.

[Wally Mk2]

'AR' tnxs for the army link, very interesting, being green it's hard to read but perhaps they didn't want you to find it too easily:} Terrific stories/facts though:ok:



Wmk2

[leg man]

Only flown the N22 never found it to be dangerous but definitely not the easiest or nicest type I've flown.

Take off rotation technique was interesting, to get the thing to rotate one needed to pull the control column back into your stomach until the nose started to lift and then check forward to stop over rotating. Not an aeroplane that would fly itself off the ground.

The nomad wins the prize for the hottest type I’ve flown. The ventilation system if you could call it that was as good as useless. The military POH we had a copy of set crew flight time limits based on the OAT.

The only way to get rated torque from the engines during the power check after maintenance was to do the check with the generators turned off. GAF AFM torque figures were higher than the torque figures in the Allison engine manual? Full torque was not available over 20 deg c.

The crew doors leaked in the rain. Problem was the avionics are located under the pilot’s seats. Easier to seal the floor so the avionics wouldn’t get wet and bail it out like a boat than seal the doors.

The flap/aileron/spoiler system was an engineering marvel consisting of bell cranks push rods and bungie cords. Flap 40 landing distance was impressive even though the brakes were not.

[the wizard of auz]

Hey, They couldn't have been all that bad... they made a whole television series with em and made the flying docs look like super heros. I bet Skippy wishes he had one instead of that busted assed old B47. :}:E

[bushy]

Only one RFDS base used Nomads. That was broken hill.
But the publicity suggested ithe Nomad was THE RFDS aeroplane.
Broken hill was also the only RFDS base to use Beagle 206's. I think the only ones in Australia were at Broken Hill.

[the wizard of auz]

Is the one at BH a local one, or bought in for the job of corroding away at the terminal?. I remember seeing there maaaany moons ago.

[Freewheel]

T T T T T T T


What's that skip?


T T T T T T T

Wizard your what? Arms?

T T T T T T T


You want to jump where????

Come on skip, not that again!


Oh, on the chopper, well that's OK then.


Anything about the Nomad?


T T T T T T T


Yes Skip, you can use it for your trailer. I don't know how it would get off the water either, but you can probably jump in the water and make some ripples for it.


T T T T T T


Same to you skip.

[Carrier]

Great aircraft!

Here's a thread with comments on the Nomad: AVCANADA • View topic - Anybody Got Any Time In A Nomad? (http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=41263&p=467361&hilit=Nomad#p467361)

Here's a good photo of a Nomad: www.aztecnomad.com/images/image_page/large/cd004.jpg

[tinpis]

Oh yes, the good old Piper Nomad :*

[kingtoad]

The Nomad on the stick at Broken Hill was not a local one at the time it was stuck on the stick out there (About 1992). The original VH-MSF (Mike Sierra Famous) went to the Gold Coast after it was at the Broken Hill RFDS Base. I think it even made a beach landing there at one stage. It was doing the runs from Cooly to Lady Elliot ... havn't seen or heard of it for a number of years now.

I remember "Doris" doing some pretty interesting flying displays in it.

[zube]

The Northern Territory Aerial Medical Service used N24's.

They were impracticle for the job particulary in Alice Springs. (May have been better in Darwin). Underpowered and rode turbulence like a dog. Those tiny helicopter engines required compressor washes every day in Central Australia. All take offs were turbine temperature limited.

The feeling at the time was that pressurised Beech Kingair would have been more suitable, but the Government of the day were paying so they forced the decision. After all, they couldn't sell them to anyone. Why not give them away.

The predecessor, the DH104 did a much better job in central australia, but was getting long in the tooth and needed replacing.

The N24 reminded me of the saying, An elephant is a horse designed by a committee. I reckon it was designed by a committee.

[tinpis]

When were NTAMS N24's used in Alice?

[zube]

Arrived early 1978 as I recall. Pilots were endorsed by David Wiltshire of TAA who oversaw the introduction.

NT got self Government that year so I think someone else took over the operation later. Possibly Air North.

Up to self government in 1978 the commonwealth health department funded the operation and TAA had the contract. TAA pilots and engineers were seconded to Darwin, Alice Springs and Gove.

After self government the NT government took it over.

[bushy]

The Nomads of NTAMS in Alice Springs only did routine clinic flights and appeared to be a training operation for TAA f/o's who were due for upgrade. They got command time in the Nomads.
Th RFDS did the emergency evacuations in Barons and Chieftains.
When TAA stopped doing the clinics, the RFDS did them.

[bushy]

I remember following an NTAMS Nomad to a comunity in Northeren SA on a cloudy day. Visual nav was dificult and was all we had. (no GPS then) I decided to ask the Nomad pilot ahead of me what the weather was like at his location. I first asked where he was.
He replied " I have no idea. Of course I am on track" He managed to find the community and land but when I got there it had clouded over again. He told me when he heard me fly over and I managed to find a hole in the cloud a bit to the south, descended through it and tracked back to the community.
Interesting times.

[tinpis]

Must have been Connellans post 78?
No Nomads in Alice post 80 anyway it was then an Ansett contract.

Anyways, to the original question was it a bad thing?
I dont really think you coud say it was ALL bad, a simpler twin to operate would be hard to find
Good seeing as now there are going to be young Neddies with 500 hours stuck on twins .
It certainly has a nice boxy cabin and buggered if I found it hot even in the most ****house climate in world, Darwhine at this time of year.

[Dnav31]

MSF was last seen working for an Aerial Survey company in Malaysia. Still same colours.

[fixa24]

MSF was last seen working for an Aerial Survey company in Malaysia. Still same colours.

I saw it in the late 90's sitting rusting away at point cook... must have done a fair bit of work on it since then..

[Under Dog]

"MSF" spent quite a bit of time in Hervey bay and Goldy doing the Lady Elliot run in the late 90s and early 2000.

Regards The Dog

[Harry Cooper]

I only ever flew the N22 but thought it was a great bus - but only on short sectors. The seat couldn't be moved and could get as hot as hell up front but it was fun to fly and could land and pull up within a few lengths of itself - from memory at fairly low weights you could cross the fence at around 45 - 50 KIAS and it would only require beta to pull up pretty quickly.

I remember the guy who endorsed me saying that "Flying the Nomad is like f**king your sister.....your up there but your not real proud of it." I think a few people who've flown it feel that way.

[zube]

Spot on Harry. Spot on.

[By George]

Some of you blokes are being a little hard on the Nomad. It wasn't that bad and not dangerous at all. It had some odd flight characteristics for sure, being pitch unstable at times with an odd pumping of the stick in turbulence. I think with a new tail the aeroplane had good potential. The N22 was strange with that flap retraction on an overshoot and I disliked its tendency to 'lean over' in crosswinds. MJMJKG I see you have flown the "Rice Rocket", now there is a dangerous aeroplane, killed a good mate of mine in suspected icing and has a world-wide reputation that is highly suspect. Capt Wally where you at F.S. in '79? the Searchmaster was based on the N22 not the N24. The N22B had the Bendix thimble nose radar and the N22L had the chin Litton radar. I ferried SNL (nicknamed the 'snail') and SDZ to Darwin. Flight time the same as Singapore to London, 13hrs. Hardly a rocket, but I thought they were quite fun. Some of the accident history on the type is straight 'pilot error', you had to watch the C of G especially in the N24, it was out of forward limits when empty, for example, but it's not fair to call it dangerous. I wish the new venture all the best.

[O2]

Flew SMJ, SNL and MSF in the late 90's. Like most machines once you get used their intricacies it's just another aeroplane.

[Wally Mk2]

'By George' Yes I was there in '79, Executive Air Maint then or Forrester Stephens as you say (VH-BOB came there I think?), taken over by H.C. Sleigh I believe (Golden Fleece?) after I left. It probably was the N22 as the Searchmaster like you say, they looked the same to me when I was a young whiper snipper:) I mainly worked on IO540E1B5 piston engine O/Haul but the Nomad sure had a lot of people fuss over it with many a comment, good & bad.
Recall B. McG flying them too?


Wmk2

[By George]

Yes Wally I do remember him, is he still flying? Also I was wrong the Bendix radar Nomad was the N22S the 'B', the normal pax version. 30 years tests the memory sometimes. One delivery flight had to be via Bankstown for final fitting out, cannot remember what it was now, perhaps the radar? From Bankstown I went via Broken Hill, Leigh Creek and Alice with a spare engine on a pallet down the back. Can I claim to have flown a three engine Nomad?

[tinpis]

Ansett operated a Litton equipped N22 on the Coast watch contract in darwhine
It was fitted with GNS, which was pretty flash at the time

[HarleyD]

B Mac still flying. has done a few international ferries over the last few years, brought some dorniers back from Japan amongst other things. is still Reg 35 as well, still very active in GA, top bloke. has a business located at WSL

HD

[tinpis]

Funnily enough just bought a cheap patio set from Bunnies because it had mesh seats that reminded me of the Nomad.($245, how them Chinameese do it?)
It was a no sweat seat for the daily five odd hours of low level good fishiing and boat launching possibilities spotting up here :}

[Rage1018]

here in the Philippines we still fly the Nomad. :) I like this aircraft a lot:ok:

our motto with this aircraft "No runway too short, no place too remote".

we fly the N-22B and the N-22C. If this is a dangerous aircraft we must be the bravest pilots in the world. haha :)

[ZK-NSN]

"MSF" spent quite a bit of time in Hervey bay and Goldy doing the Lady Elliot run in the late 90s and early 2000.
What happened to DJ?

[j3pipercub]

Which D-J? D-J the japanese speaking guide?

[Tmbstory]

I watched the Nomad spin on a right base at Kota Kinabalu airport until it crashed. There was no sign of it coming out of the spin. All people on board perished.

Not for me!

Tmb

[tinpis]

Litton and GNS Searchmaster at Darwin circa 1982
Probably VH- SNL
Not my legs or brown shoes :yuk:


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/snl.jpg

[Pinky the pilot]

Posted before on another thread but here again;
An ADF Nomad at Kerema. Gulf Province Papua New Guinea, sometime in 1990

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/raafnomad.jpg


Graffitti on the Fuselage of the Nomad.http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/nomadgrafitti.jpg

[AnyGivenSunday99]

What was the SFTOL capabilities with a full load?

[Capt Claret]

AnyGivenSunday99

It's been a long time and I can no longer remember the weights but I used to fly an N22B into Lady Elliot Island, in the late 80's early 90's with a full load of cargo, some thing like 1200 kg of freight. The strip there was 600 metres, high water mark to high water mark. It would also get out at max gross too.

Mind you, the TWotter would do the same at a higher gross weight. :}

[Pinky the pilot]

A sad example of the thread subject.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i319/Pinkythepilot/douglasairwaysnomad.jpg

When DZ finally went bagarup, this a/c was attended to by a few blokes with power cutting tools and the result was sold to the local scrap merchant.

I believe the Queen Air behind suffered the same fate.

[frigatebird]

Clarrie, that would have been the Wart - WRT. Not a bad old ship - just eccentric. Had the seat packs, to take the perishable freight to the Island if the passenger loads were light, or you could take the seats out and do a dedicated freight run.

[boofhead]

664 hours on the N22 out of Samoa and always found it it be a great airplane. Could lift 12 people easily out of 800 foot strips with the temps around 30C and never had it limited except by torque. Often had to increase power after takeoff since it got off the ground so easily even with the throttles at less than the climb setting. Could fly on one engine and climb to 5000, better than most light twins. Flew it to neighbouring islands including Tonga and Fiji as well as around the Samoas. Great visibility, good balanced controls, fantastic performance, miserly fuel consumption, could carry large loads (volume as well as weight), had good passenger appeal, pretty fast compared to it's rivals, etc. Hot inside on the ground, but good ventilation cooled it down after takeoff. My only problem was the noise, but again the Nomad was not unique in that area.
I truly don't understand the objections some offer to this airplane, especially by anyone who has actually flown it. I put it down to the "tall poppy" syndrome, or the Australian cringe factor. Ignore them.

[Rage1018]

I agree with everything you said.


Nomad in Jolo, Philippines. we just landed here. length of usable runway is 800 M since runway is under repair
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v3918/136/53/1448619372/n1448619372_351220_1500955.jpg

[john_tullamarine]

I'm sure that our colleagues from the Philippines will recall the pre-mod aileron problems .. they had several events going back some years now .. any aircraft which can recover following that sort of inflight structural damage has something going for it .. but, then, I have a soft spot for the Gonad, even if I never got around to driving one.

By the way, is Tiz Q from Boeing still doing the tech rep thing for you good folk out in the real world ? or has all the support faltered pending whatever Gippy Aero intends to do with the TC ?

[Jethro Gibbs]

geez TIZ Q theres a blast from the past was @ boeing brisbane years ago now ?

[Three Blader]

A poor example of an Aeroplane

[flying-spike]

Tiz was still with Boeing last year when I left. Tech support for the aircraft went the Certificate of Airworthiness was handed over. Air Safari still swear by the aircraft and I have mostly fond memories apart from playing guess the chip detector when a light came on. Always ended up being reduction gearbox anyway.

[hoggsnortrupert]

Or as a mate use to call it THE GONAD::}

I can remember seeing ZX SNZ parked outside the Captial Aviation Hanger/Office at wellington airport, with the Southerly blowing "just a tad"( yeah right)!

The CP called out F-----ing look at that! SNZ was levitating about 2-3ft off the ground, while happily parked!

On the twin NDB approach into Woodburn one night, a Chip Detector light illuminated, company SOP was to shut it down, I thought about shutting down a "perfectly good engine", and decided to follow the SOP and do so.

I proceeded to feather the right Engine, but something did not look or feel right! and I was confused, and could not understand why!
After sitting on my hands for a tad longer and trying to not get too high on the Approach! I realized that the chip light was saying L-ENG, but it was situated on the Right Hand side of center in the console.

In turbulence when at Light weight, it would fish tail, so you get the person in the Right seat to wonder down the back and it would stop!

Landing at All up weight it would perform better than a Twin Otter.

Take offs at all up weight were just the opposite.

In the rain you got an extremely wet right leg.

And in icing it did not like icing at all, it became a different animal in feel.

And in the winter, at night, the heating system was good when it stayed working.

Not an aeroplane I would like to get reacquainted with.

Chr's
H/Snort.:ok:

[NO LAND 3]

Accountants loved it.

Compare the cost of capital, maintenance and operating to a Caravan and you begin to see its appeal. After all the measure of a successful aircraft is not just aesthetics.
I grudgingly admit to a soft spot for the damn things. Then again I don't have to fly them any more. My knees rubbed the dashboard.

SNZ...;)

[tinpis]

SDZ outside the old hangars in Darwhine in happier days

http://www.cnapg.org/1056.jpg

Clyde North Aeronautical Preservation Group - CNAPG. (http://www.cnapg.org/nomad.htm#Government%20Aircraft%20Factory%20Nomad)

[By George]

I did the ferry flight of SDZ from EN to DN via AS. It took two days and 13 hours of flight time. I agree with most comments, but it was not really that bad, I've seen worse. The 24 flew better and didn't have that strange 'auto flap retraction' during an overshoot. An empty 24 was out of limits on the forward C of G. I cannot tell how I found that out. More grey hairs.

[By George]

Thanks Tinpis for the cockpit photo, they're not my legs, I would never wear brown pants and brown shoes with blue socks! Funny to see that early VLF Omega set to the right of the knee. We did a two day course at Civil on that and when given the certificate thought we were the 'ants pants' being 'Omega endorsed'. How embarassing now. Only 9 waypoints, number 9 was home base and in heavy rain it fell over anyway.

[mickk]

There are military and civillian reports and also government reports on the early Nomad. It was found to be a flawed design, an accident waiting to happen in many areas. The RAAF was found to be negligent in allowing them to fly.

Having the tail fall off is not good, even worse when it happens more than once.

I remember when it first flew, there was a lot of money and politics involved at the time.

[Three_pointer]

Nice compact Allison 250, large key though! At Gove 1978 from a Dept Health N24. There were a few early engine changes - compressor problems? http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll292/pjmitch/SL197811S008.jpg

[tinpis]

We did a two day course at Civil on that and when given the certificate
In an envelope marked Marriage certificates I found this

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/gns1.jpg

[tinpis]

Wait! Theres more!

How embarrassing :hmm:
Still, may be worth something on ebay one day....

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/nomad.jpg

[tasdevil.f27]

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/3897/2930270323cf9ba5d5ae.jpg

VH ATO back in 2007

[The Butcher's Dog]

"VH ATO back in 2007" - sounds like a while ago then!

Seriously, the worst aircraft I have ever flown. Most I know would be happy to remove it from their licence.:\
The reason why it would land in such a short distance was that it was never really designed to fly, landing was relief to all!
Celebrating its history is akin to the abhorrant thought that one day Hitler will be celebrated as a mover and shaker in social justice.:bored:

[blackhand]

MickK said

Having the tail fall off is not good, even worse when it happens more than once.


I remember the Nomad at ARDU that lost its tailplane.
"Crash" Donovon the PIC
The accident report highlighted the many hours of ground runs at high power as a probable cause of the fatigue.

Can not find a reference to another failure.

Worked on these for a couple of years at Oakey, N22 with premod Prop reduction gearboxes. Three pinnion planetary gears, was able to produce a lot of metal in a very short time.

[Checklist Charlie]

one day Hitler will be celebrated as a mover and shaker in social justice

You mean he wasn't!

The aircraft Glen was flying at ARDU was originally VH-IIG and yes it was used for extensive ground running. The shaking of the tail feathers during this ground running was not identified or considered part of the airframe fatigue life that was the start of the ultimate failure.

[john_tullamarine]

Re GD's fatal, and some of the adverse history in general, I think that some of the posters really need to do some homework before making silly statements such as seen in this thread.

Unfortunately, Donovan was in the wrong spot at the wrong time. A TP mate had been along on the previous circuit and then watched the prang .. not his fondest recollection.

Tailplane cracking was a well known problem (all Types have their problems) and subject to an inspection regime. The last factory inspection on that particular serial prior to its return to the military was made by a long term colleague of mine (Russ K) whose integrity was not in question ... I might note, he carried the worry that he may have missed the start of some cracking to his grave. It would have helped had the military subsequently not elected to defer an inspection sometime prior to the crash .. that inspection very likely would have picked up the accelerated deterioration and avoided Donovan's death.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

JT, that is an engineering issue..was there any attempt to rectify the fatigue problem? Different tail rigging..conventional instead of stabilator? lower down the empennage? I know there was a t-tail built, did it ever fly?

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Tinpis, whose hangar is SDZ parked in front off?

Signed by one Mr Geoffery Brown esq. RIP

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Terry Burn/Read Air operated Nomads on night freight across Bass Strait and between Sydney and Melbourne for a number of years.

[NO LAND 3]

JT, that is an engineering issue..was there any attempt to rectify the fatigue problem? Different tail rigging..conventional instead of stabilator? lower down the empenage? I know there was a t-tail built, did it ever fly?
I believe there was a mod involving strengthening the empenage. Although fatigue was a problem early in the types life it was resolved and the Nomad went on to become quite a successful ugly little orphan that I have a soft spot for but never want to fly again.
Mainly because it doesn't come with a pretty young thing who serves me lunch on china with a crisp linen napkin.

[john_tullamarine]

was there any attempt to rectify... did it ever fly?

A long time since I had an involvement with the design side of things at the factory so I am not able to say just what went on. There are a couple of the other lads post to PPRuNe who would know the ins and outs .. they may feel moved to comment on the detail.

Reading this thread it is sad to see some of the fringe comments from those who clearly had no knowledge of the aircraft at all and rely on regurgitating disaffected propaganda.

At the end of the day

(a) Nomad had a number of strengths .. payload/GW, low speed lateral control, low cost provided you kept the maintenance up to it, etc.

(b) and a number of weaknesses .. the tin was a bit on the thin side for durability and tended to crack a tad here and there, flap 20 long stab, ailerons a bit on the weak side initially, etc.

... strengths and weaknesses ... just like any other aircraft Type.

Keeping in mind that the design originally started out as a single engine machine of (memory failing here) 5000-6000lb and, as the N24A ended up OEI climb limited with that tiny flea-power engine the factory didn't do too badly. I can't recall exactly but there was either/both a drawing and/or model of the early single studies in Wriggles' office ... at the time I was one of the boys just outside in the main design office beavering away on sums and such like.

The main problem was that the Nomad was a fill-in task (to keep the personnel/organisation intact) between major assembly projects and was hamstrung by short production run authorisations .. you just can't get any economies of scale if you are limited to buying things in 5s and 10s rather than hundreds.

Those operators who exploited the Type's strengths made good dollars from the aircraft, those who exploited the weaknesses probably should have played with some other sort of (read "more forgiving") aeroplane.

The ADF story is not as simplistic as many would suggest/imagine. The Nomad's original purpose was no longer relevant to the military and they needed to find a way to short circuit the normal channels for replacement to get the desired communication capable Type .. it shouldn't be too hard for PPRuNe bright folk to figure out what became the strategy ... "Widow Maker" ? ... made for good copy on Four Corners ...

Did the tailplane wiggle a bit on the ground ? .. it sure did. In fact, for the Senate enquiry, a keen lad (who shall remain nameless) put together a video comparing a range of Types ... all of which did the the same sort of thing to a greater or lesser extent.

Was the Nomad God's gift to aviation ? .. of course not. Was it a good aircraft ? .. in some roles, yes, in others, no.

Just another aircraft with its supporters and detractors ...

[chainsaw]

TP,

Guess what?

I've got same certificates, but with different numbers! :)

I reckon (know!) I was on the same training courses as By George. So, I also reckon that if he's as smart as he was in those days, then he SHOULD 'remember' who was with him on the trip up to Darwin in SDZ! :}

[tinpis]

CLX-ray Tinpis, whose hangar is SDZ parked in front off?


Was at the time NTAW engineering hangar
The aircraft hangar was in front of the SDZ in the pic, also the door to the pilots room at the side
One of the best jobs I ever had.

[Torres]

One of the best jobs I ever had.

I'm glad you said one of - or I'd be offended! :}

Do you remember Biscuit Ears announcing the Nomad would be assembled in Papua New Guinea?

[flying-spike]

Is that Ozzies hangar, the next one down?

[tinpis]

Is that Ozzies hangar, the next one down?

No that was the NTAMS hangar where the mighty N24's were housed

Ozzy was miles further down the road but you could still hear him.

[tinpis]

Torres Do you remember Biscuit Ears announcing the Nomad would be assembled in Papua New Guinea?


No, but he was half right, he managed to dis-assemble a few. :hmm:

[bushy]

The Nomad design was originally called Project N, and was for a single engined, turbine powered low wing? aircraft. I think they had the military in mind, and they also sent details of this proposal to the agricultural operators to see what they thought of it, and if they might buy it.
But that soon changed to (N2?) the twin eginged high wing design which became the Nomad.
Had they built the "project N," they would have beaten the PAC 750 by a few decades and would probably have made many sales, and maybe even made a profit.

[john_tullamarine]

No that was the NTAMS hangar where the mighty N24's were housed

Well can I recall some flight testing on the NTAMS birds when DCA had some concerns regarding OEI climb degradation with some mods. An unrelated night out for numerous airline overnighting crews at Lims might have turned out differently if a chap hadn't programmed an 0-dark-30 launch in the Gonad for the following morning to get some climb data ... ah, memories.

The Nomad design was originally called Project N, and was for a single engined, turbine powered low wing?

There may well have been a low wing study before my time but the earliest single study I can recall was highwing.

[bushy]

That could be. It was a long time ago.

[blackhand]

The Nomad began life in the late 1960s at the Government Aircraft Factories (GAF) as Project N. In January 1970, the government funded two prototypes of the twin-engined multi-purpose transport, now known as N2, aimed at both the military and civil markets. The N22 was the military utility aircraft which became the N22B in production, and the lengthened commercial development became the N24. VH-SUP was the first prototype and flew on 23 July 1971. It had been planned to give the type an Aboriginal name, but it became the Nomad.


From RAAF museum site.
Blackhand

[tinpis]

Brazil makes our efforts seem very puny indeed :(

wiki:
The owner of a sophisticated technological sector, Brazil develops projects that range from submarines to aircraft and is involved in space research: the country possesses a satellite launching center and was the only country in the Southern Hemisphere to integrate the team responsible for the construction of the International Space Station (ISS)

[Brian Abraham]

With respect to the single engine Nomad, maybe confusing the 1979 Australian Aircraft Consortium (Hawker de Havilland, Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation and Government Aircraft Factories) project to design/build the A10/A20 Wamira PT-6 powered trainer for the RAAF. In December, 1985, when the A-10 prototype had just emerged from final assembly, the government cancelled the local programme and decided to order a Swiss aircraft, the Pilatus PC-9.

[djpil]

The N1 seemed pretty sensible to me. PT6. Conventional horizontal tail. Heavier sheet metal gauges. Fixed landing gear.
Then "the customer" specified two engines and .... and ......

[tinpis]

It appears there are few Nomads still working in Kiwi
Is this correct and how many?

[Corkey McFuz]

1 N22 and 3 24s. Am I correct in saying there is only one flying in oz ??

[By George]

I was playing golf on Bintan Island (Indonesia) in May and an Indonesian Nomad interupted the peace and quiet, it looked to be in Navy markings but hard to tell, military anyway of some sort. I was suprised they still have any left.
'Chainsaw' yes I remember, have never forgotten the overnight in AS with that girl crying out "Evan" "Evan" and waiting down at breaky to see what the stud looked like. Made me feel quite inadequate.

[tinpis]

I remember, have never forgotten the overnight in AS with that girl crying out "Evan" "Evan"

Where you near the Todd river? :hmm:

[Dog One]

I recall that Nationwide became a dealer for the Nomad, and Vic Walton toured the country demonstating their aircraft. There is ABC TV footage of a landing on 14 at Cambridge in which the aircraft stopped almost in its own lenght.

I believe one or two Tassy operators at the time showed some interest, but the lease terms offered by most finance companies were pretty steep. However, had they being a overseas company, the Government had special finance packages at a very low interest rate, similar to the original Embraer deals on the Bandit.

I am sure that if there had been better finance packages by the Government, more of the aircraft would have been sold to operators.

[Torres]

Biscuit Ears (Douglas Airways) wanted PNG Government support to assemble Nomads in Port Moresby. He was sure they would put the Twotters out of business. :E

IAT in Wewak also had a couple of Nomads.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the fiasco of the US Customs service N22s, I think all amphibians? I wonder what happened to those?

[chainsaw]

Where you near the Todd river?

Not guilty...........and my name's not Evan, either! :}

[tinpis]

Happy little Vegemite in Nomad

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/tinpis/nomadLarge.jpg

[aeromariner]

All landplanes ... but I'd hate to get the facts in the way ......

[Torres]

aeromariner. You may be correct - hence my "?" Your post doesn't contribute much to this thread, does it? :confused:

I was curious what happened to those aircraft - of which I have little or no knowledge, merely a vague recollection - but if it is a national secret I can accept that. :hmm:

[By George]

I recently saw a photogragh of six Nomads 'stored' in the US, they were all the same colour, blue and white and I am sure they were ex-Customs. Minus engines but complete. It might have been somewhere in Florida, but I am not sure. They are not using them anymore. I have a LAX overnight at the end of the month and intend to visit Chino, somebody there will know and I'll ask.

[tinpis]

Would i be correct in saying without engines and log books they would be worthless?

[By George]

I remember all the windows were protected with that white plastic or whatever it is the Yanks love to use when storing aircraft, so they might have some life left. They didn't use them for long, so the airframe hours are not likely to be high, but they were stored outside. They all had the 'chin' radar so thats why I think they are the Customs aircraft. The drug runners in their Barons and C402's would have out-run them with ease.

[By George]

The photograph may be on 'Airliners.net' I will check.

[Pinky the pilot]

No-one else has asked yet so I shall; OK Tinpis, The happy little Vegemite tis you, is it not?:hmm:

[Stationair8]

Dear mum,
After six months at Bamaga on the Shrike I have progressed onto the mighty turbine Nomad. Within a few months I will get the call up from Ansett and I have a seniority number already!
Love
Mummies Nomad Driver

[djpil]

The drug runners in their Barons and C402's would have out-run them with ease.Back then, the drug runners preferred the "cigarette" boats and I believe the Searchmasters were very effective in helping to put them out of business. I'd heard that the USCS was quite happy with them. Two had a mid-air while fleeing a hurricane - from memory they were flying "together", seems to me that neither knew who was the leader and one ran into the other.

[tinpis]

the call up from Ansett and I have a seniority number already!

Mine was backdated to '81, what was yours?

[Stationair8]

No such luck, unfortunately!

[By George]

'Torres' I have solved your question. N6328 a N22L is stored at Tuscon Davis-Monthan AFB and six are stored at Rantoul Airbase in Kansas, all ex-Customs and N22L Searchmasters. Have to take off my Anorak now as 'She' is giving me that look.

[john_tullamarine]

Mine was backdated to '81, what was yours?

Memory's stretching here .. face is vaguely familiar but can't put a name to it .. where were you based ?

[Torres]

By George. I thought the US Customs had Nomads. It is many years ago but I don't think they were in service for very long. Think I read an article that it ended in some type of legal action as the Nomads didn't perform to the US Customs or Coastguard specifications?

If so, they could be very low hour aircraft.

[aeromariner]

"Your post doesn't contribute much to this thread, does it" As much as any of the ill informed here. How long does it take to find out that only Serials 61 and 83 were completed as amphibians? , Or that the legal action was between Hughes aircraft and GAF over the N24A commuter, or that the Litton radar in the searcmaster was air to ground only or where the boneyard is for the the ex customs aircraft.

[john_tullamarine]

completed as amphibians?

More fond memories. I did some of the early estimates for the amphibian. My first attempt at ceiling calcs came up with some unpalatable numbers ... George F had a looksee at my scrawlings and pretty pictures ... "try moving that here ... change that there .." and, lo and behold, instant 5000ft OEI ceiling.

Quite a talented chap, our George.

[twodogsflying]

AH the Nomad.

Back in the 80's I was flying both Nomads and the Twin Otter.

As I pilot I loved the Twotter and Nomad was an utter piece of Crap.

Yes it would land shorter than an Otter, but not by much, but it needed far more distance for Takeoff.

At anything near max weight whilst taxing the Nomad would lean in a turn and once straitened up it would stay leaned. You would have to turn the other way to get the wings level again.

EVERY landing on a muddy runway (a design feature) you would spend about 30 minutes cleaning the mud off the landing gear micro switches so they would work again.

At least once a day the chip light would go off and you would have to take it out, clean it and put it back in again. Every Nomad pilot had a grease stain on the right shoulder of his shirts!

In turbulence the fuselage would stay perfectly still and the control column would violently go into your stomach and then go into the instrument panel. No other aircraft I have flown does this.

On the N22 the seat was bolted in its most forward position to remain 5 degrees in front of the prop meaning once you where in there was no way of moving, especially if you left your wallet in your rear pocked. There was no way of removing it in flight! This also meant you could not move the ailerons full deflection with both hands remaining on the control column, your knees got in the road!

After landing on a bush strip, you would have to go down the cabin putting all the overhead panelling back in place.

The N22 had a design feature of automatic flap retraction from full flap to half flap or go-round position. Some designer thought this was a good idea. It was the most dangerous feature of the aircraft. In the tropics in gusty wind situations and wind sheer there was so much drag with full flaps that large power inputs where sometimes necessary resulting in the flaps coming up close to the ground.

When training you could not cycle the gear and the flaps more than 6 times in 30 minutes (limitation from memory) or you would burn out the electric motor driving it all.

I can go on but you get the idea.

In principle it was a good aircraft but it was still a prototype when it was produced and was never developed from prototype. It needed more development, and then produced, maybe the new one will get the development it needs, but I doubt it.
:ugh:

[BULLDOG 248]

jt..Do you remember the names of any of the test pilots at Avalon during those busy days?? I remember a hive of activity on at the STOL strips east of Avalon. When they got sick of them, they would shoot down to Connewarre or Grovedale for a change of scenery. Was the late and great G.M. on the Nomads or later??

[Stationair8]

What are we checking in the last photo?
Hope the pilot had his brown undies on.

[Stationair8]

The Nomad was built at Fishermen's bend and then trucked to Avalon for test flying?

Who was the agents for Nomad?

Didn't HC Sleigh or Forrester Stephens have a number of Nomads stored at Essendon in the mid 1980's?

[porch monkey]

Assembled and flown at Avalon. All the last lot to go to the army had zero time airframes and had been refitted with efis. When they got rid of them most had less than 500 TT.

[flying-spike]

Judging by the fact that both back doors are off I would say it had done some parachute droppings and was trying to beat them to the ground

[tinpis]

"In a underground cavern, somewhere in the Tanami desert, wrapped in protective vinyl coating and still in their original packing crates......." :rolleyes:

[aeromariner]

Pearce, Furse (on loan from ARDU) Reddel, Production pilot whose name escapes me, McGhie and Marsden plus one other (on loan from AA) Trease, Various Cameos from Walton and what's his face from Lillydale, Demo pilot John Mellors, Furse (again) from DOT/DCA, Gil Moore, Ron Hack, Brian Robinson. Need to dig out logbook .... hmm maybe best not

[john_tullamarine]

It needed more development, and then produced, maybe the new one will get the development it needs

Fair comment. The factory folk put more than a bit of effort into getting the Government nod to do just that without much success ...

[aeromariner]

But the numbers still came out wrong, and the straight floatplane was a couple of hundred pounds in TOW above predictions. The nose wheel in the wipline amphib floats ruined the lines and aerodynamics completely, and removed the three hundred pounds -such is the fickleness of it all. That was the trouble with designing for the OEI ceiling. A little bit of drag was worth a lot in TOW.

Serial 28 was to be the original floatplane, but only had the nose fittings (apparently the rest was going to be OJT at Wipline), but it was sold into west papua and stacked in bad weather. There was an attempt to convert three more to amphibs at wipaire, but I think only one was semi finished, and descended into some sort of legal fiasco. 83 still flies out of Florida and is maintained by "Thommo" who used to work at Avalon.

[djpil]

One of the amphibs got to Italy only to be blown up - someone said it was the mafia. Person who told me that had spent some brief time in jail in the USA - when questioned at the airport on the way out he said he'd bought some grass (apparently Kentucky lawn seed for his wife) and thought everyone should have a handgun.
Production pilot whose name escapes meGeoff Wood.
what's his face from LilydaleHugh Hopkins.
Brin Haylock for a little while.

[prospector]

The N22 we had at Polynesian was intended to be a floatplane, all the doublers for reinforcing of the outer skin, plus other mods were in place, but it ended up just being a normal run of the mill N22. Carried everything from coffins from Niue to Rolls Royce darts to Pago to keep an HS748 in service in it. It was an aeroplane that did all that was asked of it, certainly did not like heavy handed drivers.

[tinpis]

Not going into bat for the Nomad it was a bit of a klutzer, but ...

2dogs said...

Yes it would land shorter than an Otter, but not by much, but it needed far more distance for Takeoff.

Problematical

At anything near max weight whilst taxing the Nomad would lean in a turn and once straitened up it would stay leaned. You would have to turn the other way to get the wings level again.

Never had it happen in 4 years or heard of it

EVERY landing on a muddy runway (a design feature) you would spend about 30 minutes cleaning the mud off the landing gear micro switches so they would work again.


Never heard of it. We operated into monsoon affected strips

On the N22 the seat was bolted in its most forward position to remain 5 degrees in front of the prop meaning once you where in there was no way of moving, especially if you left your wallet in your rear pocked. There was no way of removing it in flight! This also meant you could not move the ailerons full deflection with both hands remaining on the control column, your knees got in the road!

My seat was fine, comfortable cabin once you got some forward speed 6'1" here. 5 hour tasks.

At least once a day the chip light would go off and you would have to take it out, clean it and put it back in again. Every Nomad pilot had a grease stain on the right shoulder of his shirts!

Your pilots removed diagnosed cleaned and replaced chip detectors?

In turbulence the fuselage would stay perfectly still and the control column would violently go into your stomach and then go into the instrument panel. No other aircraft I have flown does this.

No Nomad I've known does this. Moderate stick pumping on N22 yes.Stomach too big.

The N22 had a design feature of automatic flap retraction from full flap to half flap or go-round position. Some designer thought this was a good idea. It was the most dangerous feature of the aircraft. In the tropics in gusty wind situations and wind sheer there was so much drag with full flaps that large power inputs where sometimes necessary resulting in the flaps coming up close to the ground.

Use less flap on gusty approaches?


When training you could not cycle the gear and the flaps more than 6 times in 30 minutes (limitation from memory) or you would burn out the electric motor driving it all.

You would find it necessary to exceed these limitations for what operational reason?

[aeromariner]

Drives .... Errol Driver

[aeromariner]

Given who was reputed to be involved .... I like legal fiasco better, but I think another one of that three which Ben Wiplinger was building is half finished somewhere, but haven't tracked it down. It must be floatplanes because there were viscious rumours about Serial 83 in Florida as well and ... er flight plan irregularities.

[Under Dog]

Spot on 2Dogs
Couldn't of said it better myself.
The Nomad almost required a walkin stick with the lean it had.
Then the fuel guages now they were another useless piece of equipment
installed in the Nomad for all the good they did.


Regards
The Dog:ok:

[empacher48]

I agree with Tinpis over his comments about the Nomad;

I flew 24s for a while, yes they had a tendency to lean over particularly with a good cross wind (if you had about 45 knots from the side it was a good lean) but all you had to do was point nose into wind and use the ailerons to level the old girl. Plus taxiing with significant wind around you had to use the ailerons just like they teach in your very first flying lesson - positioning ailerons on the ground (or has that been lost now?).

The seat was great, it is the only aircraft I have flown where I've been able to get low enough, and stretch my legs out (6' 4").

The chip detector was a problem years ago, but has been fixed with modifications to point now that a chip light comes on it does mean imminent engine failure.

Regards to the control feedback in turbulence, yes it does happen, the flight manual even says that it happens and is at its worst between 100 -120 knots. It even tells you that if you're flying at that speed range using 10 degree flap will reduce the amount of feedback - and it does!

For training we found leaving the gear and flap down did provide adequate performance degradation to see what the Nomad can do on one engine (mind you, the ones I did fly had the Enhanced B17s, and having 500hp a side did mean it could fly well on one engine and where I flew them we were 2500' AMSL and in summer having OAT around 30 degrees) so the landing gear limitations weren't a problem. (no limitation on the flap)

All in all they were a great aeroplane for what we used it for and made the Caravan look like a waste of money.

When I last flew the old VH-DHP (not registered as that anymore) she had just over 11,000 hours was such a beautifully balanced aircraft to fly and I do miss the old girls!

[HarleyD]

empacher48, What do you mean were?? I thought they were still in service in that magnificant bit of unzud. have they been finally retired??

HD

[aeromariner]

DHPs close siblings (all Collins equipped ex NTAMS N24s) are still happily flying inzud The one I flew in even had the flight director still going strong. The nomad landing gear at least damping wise was one of the best ever designed. Just like lots of oleos with the right spring rate it got the leans (like most piper singles for instance), but you weren't left emulating skippy if you got the approach wrong. The design did put the N22 seat in the wrong place, but I think that can be traced back to the sloping frame and the military ejection requirement. roll on the rebirth

[empacher48]

Sorry Harley I was using "were" as I don't fly them anymore. They are still going strong in NZ and will be for years to come.

That Collins gear in them has been fantastic and shows up all the modern stuff in terms of reliability!

[tinpis]

Flew all the VH-DH..' s ex NTAMS .While they all had a lovely Collins set up (TAA spec?) none had a FLT director
Biggest gripe for me was poor brakes, strange on a STOL aircraft
Chip detector events were pretty well problem solved about 81 or 82
I do recall one of our pilots in a N22 Searchmaster on task waaaay out NW of the Tiwis calling on company " I got a chip light on , what now?"
He was advised to head back in.
Minutes later, on company "****, the other chip lights come on, what now?"
Some one piped up on freq. " Can I have your car?"

[aeromariner]

I think you will find a young Dave Wiltshire wrote the spec for that collins stuff. I doubt if a lot of it has been touched since installation 35 years ago. The AP106s were probably still servicable

[tinpis]

I have somewhere I know, a photo of the said N24 panel
I shall search
If I owned a propellor airplane I would be chuffed to have it set up just like that
It was classic

[frigatebird]

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/scan0001.jpg

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/scan0002.jpg

[tio540]

Who needs a slow turbine with no range, no speed, and no nothing? Ah but lands on short strips that Australia doesn't have. Chuckle.

[Capt Claret]

I was dailying that there aeroplane of frigatebird's one morning in Bundy. Got to one side and thought, I don't remember dropping the flaps. Returned to t'other side and flaps retracted!

A bit of a blow had passed through over night and caused the flaps on one side to extend bending the torque tube in the process! :eek:

No flying that day.

The Wart.

[belowMDA]

My old company used to have a 24. We operated it on 30 min sectors to an island and it really wasn't ideal for this, but then we got a contract to operate the thing up in the pacific for a couple of months on sectors from 45 min to 5 hours and the thing really came into it's own. All the issues we had have been covered already, chip lights, control feedback especially in a quartering tailwind if I recall and the list goes on. I had an engine failure over the ocean a LONG way from away from anything that resembled much of a runway, one of the gearboxes shat itself. The autopilot never really worked so you can imagine an 11 hour ferry flight hand flying the whole way.....

I'll try importing these from Flickr.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e290/belowmda/coke.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e290/belowmda/3252092710_298bdf839c_b.jpg

got lots of pics of the girl, but these are the only ones I have online at the mo.

[Stationair8]

Tinpis who operated Nomads out of Darwin in the 1970/80's?

Did the NT government own the Nomads operated for NTAMS?

Were they crewed by TAA pilots?

What was Ansetts GA arm called and did they crew the NTAMS at one stage?

Who operated the Coastwatch contract prior to Skywest?

[Pinky the pilot]

who operated Nomads out of Darwin in the 1970/80's?

I can answer that one Stationair8. In 1980/81 Coastwatch was flown by H C Sleigh (sp?) Aviation and they operated a few Nomads, how many I don't know.

At the time I was not involved in Aviation but shared a house in Stuart Park with a Coastwatch Pilot. (DL) I blame him for urging me to go flying!:D

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Airnorth also supplied pilots for the Aeromedical contract in about 1986.

[tinpis]

Ansett NTAW operated the bulk of Nomads in the Top End early 80's
Your mate Pinky, worked for HCS on the Customs contrast (2 x N22s) before joining NTAW in 81.

Then the whole thing split up in 85 I cant remember who came next, John Hardy (Air North)got the Aero-Med, and whats its name Amman, got the coast watch but I dont think they ever turned a wheel.
Think the CW N22's were dispersed and somewhere Skywet bobs up.
Some operator subsequently proved the N24 would glide and safely guts on a mud flat
The airfield has provided hours of endless comedy ever since over the years, though its been a bit quiet of late.

[Pinky the pilot]

worked for HCS on the Customs contrast (2 x N22s) before joining NTAW in 81.

Thanks Tin.:ok: You are or course, quite correct. A few too many reds over the years has dulled the memory.:O

BTW, did'nt HCS also operate a Shrike? Went for a couple of circuits with DL in it one weekend.

[Desert Duck]

At one stage TAA provided the pilots and engineers for the NTAMS.
The aircraft were owned by NT Health.

[tinpis]

Pinky I dont recall HCS having a Shrike BASED in darwhine, however your mate was with them in Bamaga on Shrikes
Yes, TAA did crew NTAMS for years before 1980, including the Doves

[john_tullamarine]

At one stage TAA provided the pilots and engineers for the NTAMS.

TAA did the set up for the operation, including modifying the aircraft for the role, as I recall. Made for some interesting times bringing the aircraft back to reality when they were retired from the role .. airline style back to GA.

Presumably, the Nomads formed a convenient route for command upgrade training for the senior F/Os ?

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Always thought that the Nomad in the early 1990's would have been an ideal aircraft for the Penguin Run out of Essendon, to replace all those sh#tboxes that used to be used by old tight erectum Maurice.

[ANCIENT]

TAA supplied pilots and engineers to the NTAMS for 27 years. Pilots applied for advertised positions and spent 2 years in the NT. I was lucky enough to spin it out for 5, some of the best flying of my TAA years. At one stage I was approved to fly the Dove, Twin Otter and unfortunately the N24. Took TAA awhile to realise the company didn't allow one to be current on three types but it did suit them to turn a blind eye at the time.
The operation did not serve as upgrade training in fact the people who could have benefited most from the experience rarely applied, it was those who had prior experience and were bored with line flying who went there.

The contract went out to tender for the first time in 1980 and so ended TAAs association.

[flying-spike]

We did have one for a few weeks on cross hire (like everything else) but it was reposessed. I would have to check the log book for the rego but I did hear that it ended up slamming into a hill in Surabaya.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Did you get to fly it or repossessed by then?

[flying-spike]

Started doing an endorsement on it then rocked up one afternoon to find it gone. Total 6.6 hours on it (dual)

ASN Aircraft accident GAF Nomad N.24A PZ-TBP Jacobcondre (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20010210-0)


I knew it ended up crashing in Suri-somewhere!

[DeRated]

HC Sleeze operated one N22 'CRI' which I think was the original Nomad demonstrator and well worn by the time it got to Bamaga for the Littoral surveillance. It was placed there after the Avgas shortage of 1980. The initial Nomad endorsement for the Customs Searchmaster contract was done by rotating pilots through Bamaga from where the shrikes did the Cape York run around the Gulf.

There were three N22S Searchmasters, based Port Hedland, Darwin and Townsville for Customs, which began in February '81. VH-CEI was the intial Hedland aircraft.

Much of the early Port Hedland operation was inland, doing PR for Customs as they set up their network of 'ears' because of the suspected night drug overflights coming down from the north. (This was in response to the aero commander that bellied in Northern Territory a year or so earlier) One trip we worked our way from Kalumbarru to Esperance without getting offshore. Most other flights were crew positioning for the patrol boats.

Longest flight I did was shadowing the '81 Bali to Dampier yacht race with 9:40 in the logbook (Hedland - Karratha - Hedland) with most of that first nine hours at less than 1,500 ft up to 250 nm out from Hedland - no chip lights that day! Just the radar operator and myself and no dunny up front. (The Searchmaster had extended wingtip tanks for range)

I found the seat very comfortable, but it was a new aircraft.

Self contained Nav was Doppler but when the airspeed dropped below about 100 knots - it went into airmode and continued on the last known heading/speed - very handy when orbiting a yacht to see your lat/long heading for the horizon!

The bubble observer windows and searchmaster radar dome under the chin effectively killed any single engine performance above ground effect.

I enjoyed flying the Nomad over flat terrain, but avoided flying it when I went to Douglas in PNG - Daru in a Bongo was safer than a Nomad in the jungle.

[Stationair8]

Lets see Flying-Spike and associated mass in the left seat and a strong gusty quartering tailwind from the right hand side, would have made for an interesting sight at PID!

Many moons ago purchasing a flying magazine at the local surburban newsagency, the guy behind the counter says, "do you realise at one stage I had the good fortune to own the largest fleet of Nomads in Australia?" He then went onto say that he had worked for a finance company and they had a number of repossed N22/N24's parked at YMMB and YSBK hoping that they would get struck by a meteorite, lightening, flash flood or tsnuami and could be written of for scrap metal.

[flying-spike]

Some people say you are a wit. I tend to think you are only half way there.

You should read the CASA estimates thread about slinging crap from anonymity. Obviously I upset you somewhere in our careers and you have never gotten over it. Lets hope you never do.

P.S. I have heard it all before, over many years so you may as well save what breath you have left.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Who actually owned FHR, Flying-Spike?

[flying-spike]

Not sure who was leasing it but the pilot's name was B.Sheehn. I seem to remember it was based in Sydney at the time.

[fencehopper]

Hi, first post here,
Had the opertunity to work on several Nomads. N24 BRP, N22's SNX,WRT and nutrimedics amphib 22 owned by Vic Walton, if right, were they really that bad? well they had their design shortcomings but if you had a good one and looked after it with good maint and good pilots they were ok, i s'pose. But bit of a pig to work on in some areas. try rebulding the brake master cyls buried way down below the floor, had hot section swaps down pat. stupid oleo gear. heavy not wide enough and squatted to easy. all the sheet metal could have gone up a grade or two. stab had to be removed every 100 hrs and really checked properly for skin/ spar cracks distortion of the spar and the stub fin had the same treatment, pivot bolts had to be replaced. the AD book was pretty big, three times as thick as the twin otters. They filled my SOE logs real quick and made some money out of them. BRP was the factory demonstrator and had an interesting log as it had flown around the world with new nose gear fitted in Sweden after it ran off the end of the strip. plus a couple of engine swaps injested the rubber grease nipple cover from the compressor no1 bearing. and a couple of other little hick ups. SNX was operated by Freddo's safety council earlier on. WRT was a alkazelsa tablet from operating out to the islands in queensland i knicknamed it 'lady canetoad'.
All of those three ended their days worn out from paraops. the one in the photo going vertical the wrong way was DNM. this ended up as the 'Leongatha chook house' after the pilot flamed out both just after t/o due to poor fuel managemnet. then pranged again trying to fly out. WRT just cost to much to keep in the air. BRP went gear up at corowa on a go around when it could not beat the sink from the thunderstorm. was never the same after that. the aircraft slid couple of hundred meters before the power was pulled. pretty much shook itself apart.
The nomads used in Florida for customs were owned and operated by Dolphin Air. Australian Aerospace (GAF) had the big tail mod and cure all ready to go they had to hang back from implementing it to the remaining fleet until the US court case between them and Dolphin Air was finalised. One was lost due to loss of control due to stab failure.
N24 needed about 60 kg in the rear locker if only two crew on board.
nomads they were ok but i really prefer 320 series Twin Otters. these are not good if you are an eager AME in training wanting to fill your SOE's.

[cac_sabre]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/1n222.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/1n223.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/sunstatenomad1.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/sabrejet/nomad2.jpg

[aseanaero]

no chip lights that day

What is the most common cause for chip lights on the Allison 250 ?

We had a Nomad come over for a skydive boogie many moons ago and it was always have chip light indications.

[Capt Claret]

What is the most common cause for chip lights on the Allison 250 ?

A helicopter engine turned upside down!

God I'm getting old & old-timer's disease is setting in.

I knew the rego BRP rang a bell but not till I saw the photos above, did the penny drop. Archie Van Dongen did my first turbine endorsement in that same wee beastie out of Toowoomba, in the late 90's. :}

[j3pipercub]

My first flight was in a N24 Air North Nomad, NTAMS contract, when I was 2 and a half years old. I got to sit in the RHS and my old man was flying it. Ever since I have wanted to fly one, but I feel I have missed the boat on that one...

[Trojan1981]

A helicopter engine turned upside down!


A few years ago, when I was in the Army, I got to talking to some senior aviation techs who made it clear that they hated the Nomad. One told me that the engines had a habit of dumping oil (?) or something similar due to being installed upside down and he had to devise a fix. Also stated that they were a nightmare to maintain....oh, and underpowered.

I have never flown one, or in one , so I have no opinion.
Hope GA address all of these issues:ok:

[Critical Reynolds No]

Does anyone have links to the video of the tail shuddering around? I thought it was posted in this thread but 9 pages of no vids! Thanks.:ok:

Nice AMI pics Wally!:ok:

[flying-spike]

I was a black hander on them when the Army first got them then an alltrades after 3 years in a chopper squadron and worst of the chip detectors was the one on the reduction gearbox. It was the hardest to get to and lit up the most with the degradation of the remains of the prop brake that was still in those gearboxes though not operable in the aircraft. Next worst was the cracks in the flutes on the horizontal stabiliser trim tab. Both of which gave us so much grief that we had to accompany the aircraft on any flight away from Oakey.
I had a day return trip to Bankstown extended to two weeks due to an engine failure and subsequent change (gearbox chips) Still, it was nice to fly fixed wing and be forced to land at an aerodrome (with motel overnights) rather than have the Kiowa go u/s and land in a paddock to do the repairs

[cac_sabre]

Operating in PNG early 80s.. One was blue, one yellow dont recall the other

[aseanaero]

Navy to ground 27 old war machines

The Jakarta Post | Mon, 12/21/2009 3:01 PM | National
The Indonesian Navy is to ground six warships and 21 Nomad surveillance planes as part of its gradual phasing-out of its aging war machines.

Navy chief Vice Adm. Agus Suhartono said on Monday the armed force would maintain six other Nomad planes as training aircraft for cadets. It has also struck a deal worth US$80 million to purchase three maritime patrol aircraft from state aircraft maker PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) as replacements for the old Nomads.

“The three CN-235 maritime patrol planes and the six remaining Nomads [are] adequate to conduct surveillance duties,” Agus told Antara news agency.

He said PT DI would develop a more sophisticated surveillance aircraft for the Navy.

“In the future the aircraft [will be] equipped with anti-submarine technology, depending on equipment, operational needs and technical specifications that we want,” Agus said.



The Indo Navy has now officially announced it will pension off the Nomad , if anyone has been to Juanda airport (Surabaya) in the last few years you would have seen rows of them parked in the aircraft shelters. Given that the retirement is pending delivery of replacement CN235s it may be another year or two before they actually stop flying them.

Don't hold your breath for surplus sales, it normally takes 3 to 4 yrs for the military to sell off surplus aircraft after they have been retired.

[ozineurope]

I remember in the mid 80s FHR and FHS operating the PH-RTI-PH run for Rottnest Airbus. Had a large Quokka painted on the side holding a surfboard.

Alex ? used to be the main pilot for them, not sure if he was the CP or not. They were loads of fun to sequence back from the island. Westerly blowing always made them number 1 for RWY 11, hell they'd take 10 kts downwind to do it! Easterly blowing, toss a coin and it could be No 3,4, or 5!!

[relax737]

I'm guessing that not every poster here flew the Nomad, so a lot of what is written is hearsay.

I did about 1500 hours on the N22 & N24, and found both to be quite good for the role for which they were designed.

The problem faced by the design team was that they were given funding incrementally, so had to change the design as they went depending on what funds were available, and the result was probably more changed appearance than much else, e.g., the gear was going to be retractable into the fuselage, then money ran out, so it was going to be fixed, then more funding became available, hence the pods, and on it went.

I don't recall a better STOL aircraft in that category, and getting into and out of 1000' strips with trees to about 80' right to the threshold was quite normal, and exhilirating. Landing at Kununurra on the 60 metre stopway and taxying off at the threshold taxyway was a good example of short field performance.

On takeoff, it would accelerate well to about 60 knots and then flaps were selected, and it would fly off the ground like a helicopter

An approach into Danger Point with a couple of small fires for the threshold and a 4WD at the other end shining lights down the runway to keep us straight on landing is a nice memory; all to evacuate a petrol sniffing kid!!

The only bad fault I recall was a slow roll rate and I even more vividly recall finding myself all but upside down in some heavy weather down near Troughton Island one night.

I look back on my Nomad flying with great fondness and if that sort of flying paid more, I'd go back and do it tomorow.

[tinpis]

Ah "Truffton Island" I knew of somebody that landed a Nomad there before it was opened in the early 80's
Grass up to the doors, terrific collection of clam shells take yer pick, nobody had been out there for years....

[hoggsnortrupert]

I have often thought that if the design & development team knew then what they we know now, what sort of machine would it have been?

It is the only machine that has gone some way to rivaling the Twin Otter!

Despite all its nuances! I guess it was not too bad, but as I said in an earlier post, I would not care to get re acquainted with the old tart.

If the Chain driven U/C system, Empenarge, and the choice of noise makers been different (PT6-s fitted), it could have been a different animal from a purely Pilots perspective.

Empty on strip work it out shone a 300 series empty Twotter:

At MAUW on Take off it used a far greater distance than a Twotter:

At MAUW on landing it out shone a Twotter.

If the strip was wet, the Otter was far superior, and felt more ground controllable, (safer).

At MAUW to lose an engine on takeoff, I would want to be in a Twin Otter.

H/Snort.:ok:

[boofhead]

The N22 was a much smaller airplane than a Twin Otter, how can you compare them? A Zenith Sport will get off the ground faster than either but what is the point of that comparison? The N24 was not a STOL airplane so again what is the point of comparing them?
What do you get for your money? Does the airplane carry the payload as far as you want? Can the airplane operate in the airfields you need it to? How much does it cost to maintain, to run?
Within those parameters, is there a better/best airplane?
So far as I can see, there is no other airplane in the same group as the Nomad. No turbine airplane of similar weight and speed. Maybe a Conquest or Aerocommander? How does the Nomad compare to those?
I only flew the N22 but I enjoyed doing so. It could take off from a 5000 foot strip, climb to 1000 feet and descend again to land straight ahead on the same strip, with room to spare.
It flew fast enough for me, was not underpowered, had good control feel and never let me down. I flew it between islands in the South Pacific 90 minutes from land with absolutely no problems and no worries. Had good single engine performance too, compared to other airplanes of its class.
Would fly one again in a heart beat.
I am sorry it got such bad press and a lack of support from the people who should have been its champion: the aussie pilots.

[tinpis]

Funny, at no time did I ever consider comparing the Nomad to a Twotter

[frigatebird]

I'm with tinpis. Always considered it supplemented a Twotter on thin routes like an Islander does, but the real gem for the regular stuff would always be the 'solid as a brick s...house' 300 Twotter. A stretched or pumped up (3 abreast ?) Islander with the Allisons would have put paid to it as a companion at the time though. 'Course with a 2 pilot rule, the economics of an aircraft with so few revenue seats becomes moot.

[aseanaero]

Ok , so if the Nomad was going to go back into production what engines and other mods would you choose and what would you call it ?

[bilbert]

The original design was for a single PT6. It would have been the C208 caravan! but then the military came up with impossible requirements for STOL and of course 2 engines. The double slotted flaps were designed to go to 60 degs but after flight testing had to be limited to 38 deg. The front flap slot does nothing at 38, so can be done away with. A T tail was designed and promised 15 kts more with reduced Vmc. Would be nice. The engine cowls design were crap and the oil cooling totally inadequate. Needs redesign. The B17 allisons eventually worked once the gear box was sorted but the rejection rate from the manufacturer was reported to be up around 50%. Maybe they kept the good ones. An LTP101 engine installation was considered but the redesign would not be worth it due sertification costs. The issue of 2 engines vs 1 meant the a/c had to meet a OEI climb requirement which limited its MTOW. With 840 shp its MTOW is below the C208 with 675 shp because the C208 doesn't have to meet the OEI requirement! Go figger!. The chain drive u/c was a bad idea, copied from the early B200? but is a retracting u/c required anyway?. The u/c pod probably caused just as much drag as faired exposed wheels would. The mesh pilot seats? Love them or hate them. I still suffer back problems from 8 hr flight days. The Short fuselage N22? Way too noisy up front, (total pilot door redesign required) and the pilot seat relocation due prop arc was disastrous for comfort. Stick with the N24/A. Oh and produce it outside of Australia!. The local regulator couldn't get past protecting one's ar$e mentality by AD'ing it into extinction and they don't have the expertise anyway. And don't offer it to the aus military.

[blackhand]

It would have been the C208 caravan! but then the military came up with impossible requirements for STOL and of course 2 engines.

Really??????

BH

[djpil]

The original design was for a single PT6......Really??????Yes, fixed gear, heavier skin gauges, tail was different too.

[tinpis]

With Mahindra & Mahindra buying Gippsland Aero it will probably be reborn as the Hindustan Air Ambassador

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:U9rkdwWms_gA8M:http://imgs.indiaautomobile.com/newcar_images/hindustan_ambassador/hindustan_ambassador_ext1.jpg

[chainsaw]

With Mahindra & Mahindra buying Gippsland Aero it will probably be reborn as the Hindustan Air Ambassador

As you can see djpil, the Hindustan Air Ambassador version that TP's kindly supplied a picture of has got fixed gear, heavier skin, and it's definitely got a different tail than the N22. :ok:

But the wings......................are they optional extras on the Air Ambassador TP? :confused:

[David Eyre]

Looking for Photos Provincial Air Services Nomads
Operating in PNG early 80s.. One was blue, one yellow dont recall the other

The aircraft were:
P2-IAT (construction number N22B-27):
Clyde North Aeronautical Preservation Group - CNAPG. (http://www.cnapg.org/zNomad27.htm)
GAF N.22B Nomad, P2-IAT (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1053066/)

P2-IAC (N22B-37):
Clyde North Aeronautical Preservation Group - CNAPG. (http://www.cnapg.org/zNomad37.htm#Nomad).

P2-IAM (N22B-93):
Clyde North Aeronautical Preservation Group - CNAPG. (http://www.cnapg.org/zNomad93.htm#Nomad)

Regards,
David

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Often wondered why GAF didn't go with a couple of 331s or PT-6s over the converted helicopter engines? Would have been interesting to see how performance stacked up with better speced engines. Would the market have treated the Nomad differently with more reliable, more powerful engines?

[David Eyre]

Many Nomad accidents/incidents seem to have been caused by the engines.

If this is the case, why is Gippsland Aeronautics sticking with a similar type of engine for their modernised N24 Nomad? Their website says:

The Gippsland Aeronautics Nomad will feature:
* Reliable Rolls Royce 250-B17F/1 Engines
* Latest technology Hartzell propellers
* Glass cockpit technology

No mention of the fixes for the tailplane issues, the skin being too thin, nor the undercarriage issues.

I'm guessing that fixes such as PT6s replacing the RR250 engines etc would require added certification costs.

Anyone from Gippsland Aeronautics able to answer?

Thanks,
David

[hoggsnortrupert]

QUOTE:It is the only machine that has gone some way to rivaling the Twin Otter! (Read Twin Engine STOL)

I was comparing them from the stol perspective, & design purpose's only, maybe you could enlighten me? TINNIE, as to what else you go some way to fairly compare both the N22 /24 to, for that matter.

The original design was a brilliant concept:

A former GAF pilot employed on testing the machines (Circa 1987-cant remember his name) once told me, the concept IS fraught with finance issues, and the design team wanted to change/ alter the rear end, and fit bigger engines,(his choice was PT6-s') and redesign the main U/C system to support bigger tires.

If this is true or just bar talk I dont know, but the chap was the genuine goods, so I feel it rather solid.

Read the attached:

GAF Nomad
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Nomad

N22C Nomad VH-ATO, the only Nomad flying in Australia in 2009
Role STOL aircraft
Manufacturer Government Aircraft Factories
First flight 23 July 1971
Status Still in civil and military service
Primary users Philippine Air ForceAustralian ArmyIndonesian National Navy
Produced 1975 - 1985
Number built 172
The GAF Nomad is a twin-engine turboprop, high-winged, "short take off and landing" (STOL) aircraft . It was designed and built by the Australian Government Aircraft Factories (GAF) at Fishermens Bend, Melbourne. Major users of the design have included the Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia, the Australian Army and the Australian Customs Service.
Contents[hide]· 1 Design and development· 2 Variants· 3 Operators o 3.1 Civil Operatoro 3.2 Military operators· 4 Notable incidents· 5 Specifications (N22B)· 6 References· 7 External links
[edit] Design and development
Development of the Nomad began in 1965 at the Government Aircraft Factories as Project N. The Australian government funded two prototypes in January 1970 for the twin engined, multi-purpose transport. The government was keen to build an aircraft in order to maintain aircraft production at GAF after the end of Mirage III production.[1] The first prototype (VH-SUP) flew for the first time on 23 July 1971. The aircraft was now known as the N2 and was aimed at the military and civilian markets. The designation N22 was to be used for military aircraft (becoming N22B in production) and N24 was to be used for the lengthened civilian version.
The original design intention was that the entire empennage would be hinged, such that it could be swung open providing rear loading access (the target payload was a small vehicle). This necessitated the raised cruciform tail.
The Nomad design was considered problematic and early Royal Australian Air Force evaluations were critical of the design. An early, stretched-fuselage variant crashed, killing GAF's chief test pilot (the father of actor Guy Pearce),[2] and assistant head designer. The Nomad has been involved in a total of 24 total hull-loss accidents, and 76 fatalities.[3]
Only 172 Nomads (including the two prototypes) were manufactured, due to the limited foreign sales achieved by GAF. In 1986, GAF was incorporated into Aerospace Technologies of Australia.[1][4]
On 18 June 2008, Gippsland Aeronautics announced they had won bidding to take over the Nomad's type certificate and would probably be restarting production.[5] Gippsland Aeronautics is working to return an upgraded version of the N24 to production in 2011.[6]
As of December 2009 only one Nomad is still flying in Australia, with another four in New Zealand.[7][8][9]

Chr's.
H/Snort:ok:

[DBTW]

There seems a Holden/Ford style comparison running hear about the -250 B17 engines compared to the PT6? There is no comparison, PT6s are different engines usually built for aeroplanes with higher power requirements. They are more expensive to buy and to run than the smaller (in size) RR250 range.

NB: the Nomad used the B17C rated at 420 HP whereas other similarly engined aircraft use much lower power ratings. If the 250 engine did have a reliability problem in the Nomad, it was more related to trying to take too much out of it than anything else. To my knowledge, there is no reliability issue on the RR250 range of engines other than that made up in the minds of PT6 advocates. The RR250 is the most prolific turbine ever built, and most commonly found on small single engined helicopters, so most aviators using this kind of engine are obviously happy with the reliability or else there wouldn't be so many flying! Suggestions that use as a helicopter engine means they cannot be used on fixed wing aeroplanes says more about the lack of understanding of turbine engines on the part of the opinion holder than it does on any real science.

Redesigning Nomads to use the RR250 B17F version makes more sense than you think, because it will be a relatively simple change where the costs can be more easily amortised, and the performance requirement is well within the design capability of the newer engine. By comparison, changing to the PT6 would require tens of millions of dollars worth of redesign and no-one these days has that kind of money in the Nomad end of the market.

People need to get consistent with their arguments. Investors only invest if they have a fair chance of getting their money back. At the beginning of the Nomad programme, Australia's usual bunch of naysayers were already trying to kill the aircraft development for some other "nationally important" reasons, and that's why the investment wasn't there up front, and we are left with a design compromise. Other than the fact that this is always the case in aviation, or any other manufacture for that matter, the poorly supported local aircraft industry is following the investment capital overseas. Whining about it now won't help, and PT6 protagonists can bleat all they like about their beloved engine, but maybe they just need to get out a bit more?

[The Green Goblin]

I would hazard a guess that there has been more PT6 in flight failures/shutdowns than the RR250 anyway.

The PT6 is under engineered, uses far to much fuel for the power produced making it IMO inefficient. The only advantage is the ability for maintenance to be performed on the hot section without having to remove the whole engine making it preferred by engineers over the likes of a Garrett. I don't care what a 'mechanic' likes to work on, I prefer something that is robust, reliable and offers efficiency.

[aeromariner]

Just what to do with the Nomad design is a quandry. Put in PT6s and you have a twin otter, and that aircraft itself is going back into production (or so sayeth the brochures). I would imagine Gippy is awaiting to see the certification basis of the viking twin otter, and to see if it is honoured by other certificating authorities. It is difficult to see the FAA not insisting on the commuter provisions in FAR23, which will make it a whole new ball game both for twin otter and Nomad. The current aeroplane can't take anymore power, but that matters little as the real problem with power in Nomad, was the negligible flat rate, and the B17F will go a long way to fixing that. On a cold day, the current nomad goes like a rocket. On a hot day its a slug. I knew/know all the GAF and ASTA test pilots, and none ever imagined the Nomad being fitted with PT6s ...well not till after the third bottle of red

[tinpis]

Hoggsnort I um.. never compared the Nomad to anything
I don't know that there is anything to compare it to size wise is there?
I just got in it, droned around as required, and then went home :ok:

[hoggsnortrupert]

I knew/know all the GAF and ASTA test pilots, and none ever imagined the Nomad being fitted with PT6s ...well not till after the third bottle of red

Water Front bar Villa "circa 1987" Air Melanesia

[COLOR="Black"]Maybe you could PM me with a few names, from the era!

As for engines, It doesn't really matter what they are as long as they are, #1 reliable, and #2 suited to the machine and the multiple environments this sort of machine would operate in:

From a modest & respectable personal experience level, with circa 10k behind a pair of PT6's, from around the pacific, the US, Europe, Africa and the normal weather & seasonal extremes, with the odd irregularity, it is I think fair to say the PT-6s are in a class of their own for operating in some very harsh and often extreme environments, even at times to the point of still running with worn power turbines, "excess tip clearances" bought about by posted down in the field and operating in desert sand.

They have routinely been operated in conditions above their OAT 50 deg C operating limitation:

I have seen routinely, hot sections being replaced with the engine on the wing.

We still flew, when the Jet Rangers would not, due to too much sand in the air, and they had better particle separators than us with out problematic deflector vanes!

From flying the Nomad, I still think the original concept as brilliant:

I have seen the problems associated from operating Garrett's, on the 228, and the Cassa 212 in these environments, and every operator that came into the theatre with this equipment either lost their contracts due to not being able to comply with the contracts serviceability, or changed to Dhc-6's, B200, B 1900:

I understand that the latest Casa 212 has PT-6's.

And no I have never operated/or seen a Nomad operated in such as above, only down in NZ in the winter at night!

I think the question needs to be asked, what is the market the Nomad is aiming at, and against what, is its opposition, and what sort of role is it being offered to support.

That said, and the attached with help from Wiki!

Allison Model 250
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Model 250 / T63

MTU-built Allison 250-C20B
Type Turboshaft
National origin United States
Manufacturer Allison Engine CompanyRolls-Royce plc
Major applications Bell 206MD Helicopters MD 500MBB Bo 105Sikorsky S-76
Number built >30,000
The Allison Model 250 (US military designations T63 and T703) is a highly successful turboshaft engine family, originally developed by the Allison Engine Company in the early 1960s. The Model 250 has been produced by Rolls-Royce since it acquired Allison in 1995.
Contents[hide]· 1 Design and development· 2 Variants· 3 Applications· 4 See also· 5 References· 6 External links
[edit] Design and development
Allison adopted a reverse airflow engine configuration for the Model 250: although air enters the intake/compression system in the conventional fashion, the compressed air leaving the centrifugal compressor diffuser is ducted rearwards around the turbine system, before being turned through 180 degrees at entry to the combustor; the combustion products expand through the two stage HP turbine, which is connected, via the HP shaft, to the compression system, before expanding through the two stage power turbine; the exhaust gases then turn though 90 degrees to exit the engine in a radial direction; a stub shaft connects the power turbine to a compact reduction gearbox, located inboard, between the centrifugal compressor and the exhaust/power turbine system.
One of the latest versions of the Model 250 is the -C40, which has a hi-tech centrifugal compressor pulling a pressure ratio of 9.2:1, at an airflow 6.1 lb/s (2.8 kg/s), and developing 715 shp (533 kW).
Some of the earlier versions have axial compressor stages mounted on the HP shaft to supercharge a relatively low pressure ratio centrifugal compressor. The -C20R is typical, pulling an overall pressure ratio of 8.0:1, at an airflow of 4.0 lb/s (1.8 kg/s), with a power output of 450 shp (336 kW).
The Model 250 propels a large number of helicopters and small aircraft.[1] As a result, nearly 30,000 Model 250 engines have been produced. Of these, approximately 16,000 remain in service. The Model 250 is one of the highest-selling engines made by Rolls-Royce.
[edit] Variants
250-C18250-C18A250-C20250-C20B250-C20F250-C20J250-C20R250-C20R/1250-C20R/2250-C20R/4250-C20S250-C20W250-C22B250-C28250-C28B 250-C28C250-C30250-C30G250-C30G/2250-C30M250-C30P250-C30R250-C30R/3250-C30R/3M250-C30S250-C30U250-C34250-C40B250-C47B250-C47M 250-B15250-B15A250-B15C250-B17250-B17B250-B17C250-B17D250-B17F250-B17F/1250-B17F/2T63A-5T63A-5AT63A-700T63A-720T703AD-700
[edit] Applications
· Agusta A109A· Bell 206B/L/LT· Bell 407· Bell 230· Bell 430· Bell OH-58 Kiowa· Cicaré CH-14 · Enstrom 480· Eurocopter AS355F· Extra EA-500· Hughes OH-6 Cayuse· MBB Bo 105· MD Helicopters MD 500· MD Helicopters MD 600 · MD 500 Defender· MH-6 Little Bird· MTT Turbine SUPERBIKE· Schweizer 330, 330SP· Schweizer S-333· Sikorsky S-76

Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6
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PT6

A PT6A-20 on display at the Canada Aviation Museum
Type Turboshaft
National origin Canada
Manufacturer Pratt & Whitney Canada
Major applications Beechcraft Super King Airde Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin OtterPilatus PC-12Sikorsky S-76
Variants Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6T
The Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 is one of the most popular turboprop aircraft engines in history.[1] It is produced by Pratt & Whitney Canada in a wide variety of models, covering the power range between 580 and 920 shaft horsepower in the original series, and up to 1,940 shp (1,450 kW) in the "large" lines. The PT6 family are particularly well known for their extremely high reliability, with MTBO's on the order of 9000 hours in some models.[2] In US military use, they are designated as T74 or T101.
Contents[hide]· 1 Design and development· 2 Variants o 2.1 PT6Ao 2.2 PT6Bo 2.3 PT6Co 2.4 PT6Do 2.5 ST6· 3 Applications o 3.1 PT6Ao 3.2 PT6Bo 3.3 PT6Co 3.4 PT6Do 3.5 ST6· 4 Specifications· 5 See also· 6 References· 7 External links
[edit] Design and development
Development of the PT6 family started in the late 1950s, apparently as a modern replacement[citation needed] for the Pratt & Whitney Wasp radial engines they were producing at that time. It first flew on 30 May 1961, mounted on a Beech 18 aircraft at de Havilland Canada's Downsview, Ontario facility. Full-scale production started in 1963, entering service the next year. By its 40th anniversary in 2001 over 36,000 PT6As had been delivered, not including the other versions.[3] The engine is used in over 100 different applications.
The engine consists of two sections that can be easily separated for maintenance. In the gas-generator section air enters through a grill into the low-pressure three-stage axial compressor, then into a single-stage centrifugal compressor, through the annular reverse-flow combustion chamber, and finally through a single-stage turbine that powers the compressors at about 45,000 rpm. Some power is also taken from the compressor end of the shaft to power an accessories section, which also loads the engine when idle to keep it from racing out of control. The hot gas from the gas generator section then flows into a separate power section of the engine, containing a single-stage turbine driving the power take-off system at about 30,000 rpm. For turboprop use, this powers a two-stage planetary output reduction gearbox, which turns the propeller at a speed of 1,900 to 2,200 rpm. The exhaust gas then escapes through two side mounted ducts in the power turbine housing, and is directed away from the engine in order to provide about 600 lbf (2,700 N) of jet thrust. The engine is arranged such that the power turbines are mounted inside the combustion chamber, reducing overall length.


Reduction gears on Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6 gas turbine engine.
In most aircraft installations the PT6 is mounted backwards in the nacelle, so that the intake side of the engine is facing the rear of the aircraft. This places the power section at the front of the nacelle, where it can drive the propeller directly without the need for a long shaft. Intake air is usually fed to the engine via an underside mounted duct, and the two exhaust outlets are directed rearward. This arrangement also aids maintenance by allowing the entire power section to be removed along with the propeller, exposing the gas-generator section.
Several other versions of the PT6 have appeared over time. The PT6A large added an additional power turbine stage and a deeper output reduction, producing almost twice the power output, between 1,090 and 1,920 shp (1,430 kW). The PT6B is a helicopter turboshaft model, featuring an offset reduction gearbox with a freewheeling clutch and power turbine governor, producing 1,000 hp (750 kW) at 4,500 rpm. The PT6C is a helicopter model, with a single side-mounted exhaust, producing 2,000 hp (1,500 kW) at 30,000 rpm, which is stepped down in a user-supplied gearbox. The PT6T Twin-Pac consists of two PT6 engines driving a common output reduction gearbox, producing almost 4,000 hp (3,000 kW) at 6,000 rpm. The ST6 is a version intended for stationary applications, originally developed for the UAC TurboTrain, and now widely used as auxiliary power units on large aircraft, as well as many other roles.[4]
When de Havilland Canada asked for a much larger engine, roughly twice the power of the PT6 Large, P&WC responded with a new design initially known as the PT7. During development this was renamed to become the Pratt & Whitney Canada PW100.
[edit] Variants
[edit] PT6A


A PT6A-67D engine on a Beechcraft 1900D. The jet nozzle on the exhaust is prominent.
The PT6A is a free turbine providing 500 to 1,940 shaft horsepower (433 to 1,447 kW).
PT6A-6
"Small" engine of 525 equivalent shaft horsepower (eshp) and 500 shaft horsepower (shp)[5]
PT6A-11
"Small" engine of 528 eshp and 500 shp[5]
PT6A-15AG
"Small" engine optimised for agricultural aircraft of 715 eshp and 680 shp[5]
PT6A-20
"Small" engine of 579 eshp and 550 shp[5]
PT6A-21
"Small" engine of 580 eshp and 550 shp[5]
PT6A-25
"Small" engine of 580 eshp and 550 shp (-25, -25A) or 783 eshp and 750 shp (-25C)[5]
PT6A-27
"Small" engine of 715 eshp and 680 shp[5]
PT6A-28
"Small" engine of 715 eshp and 680 shp[5]
PT6A-29
"Small" engine of 778 eshp and 750 shp[5]
PT6A-34
"Small" engine of 783 eshp and 750 shp[5]
PT6A-35
"Small" engine of 787 eshp and 750 shp[5]
PT6A-36
"Small" engine of 783 eshp and 750 shp[5]
PT6A-38
"Large" engine of 801 eshp and 750 shp[5]
PT6A-40
"Large" engine of 749 eshp and 700 shp[5]
PT6A-41
"Large" engine of 903 eshp and 850 shp[5]
PT6A-42
"Large" engine of 903 eshp and 850 shp[5]
PT6A-45
"Large" engine of 1,070 eshp and 1,020 shp[5]
PT6A-50
"Large" engine of 1,022 eshp and 973 shp[5]
PT6A-52
"Large" engine of 898 eshp and 850 shp[5]
PT6A-60
"Large" engine of 1,113 eshp and 1,050 shp (-60, -60A) or 1,081 ehsp and 1,020 shp (-60AG)[5]
PT6A-61
"Large" engine of 902 eshp and 850 shp[5]
PT6A-62
"Large" engine of 1,218 eshp and 950 shp[6]
PT6A-64
"Large" engine of 747 eshp and 700 shp[7]
PT6A-65
"Large" engine of 1,249 eshp and 1,173 shp (-65B, -65R) or 1,298 eshp and 1,220 shp (-65AG, -65AR)[5]
PT6A-66
"Large" engine of 905 eshp and 850 shp (-66, -66A, -66D) or 1,010 eshp and 950 shp (-66B)[7]
PT6A-67
"Large" engine of 1,272 eshp and 1,200 shp (-67, -67A, -67B, -67P), 1,285 eshp and 1,214 shp (-67D), 1,294 eshp and 1,220 shp (-67AF, -67AG, -67R, -67T), or 1,796 eshp and 1,700 shp (-67F)[7]
PT6A-68
"Large" engine of 1,324 eshp and 1,250 shp[7]
PT6A-110
"Small" engine of 502 eshp and 475 shp[5]
PT6A-112
"Small" engine of 528 eshp and 500 shp[5]
PT6A-114
"Small" engine of 632 eshp and 600 shp (-114) or 725 eshp and 675 shp (-114A)[5]
PT6A-116
"Small" engine of 736 eshp and 700 shp[5]
PT6A-121
"Small" engine of 647 eshp and 615 shp[5]
PT6A-135
"Small" engine of 787 eshp and 750 shp[5]
[edit] PT6B
The PT6B is a 981 horsepower (732 kW) engine designed for helicopters.
[edit] PT6C
The PT6C is a 1600 to 2300 horsepower (1190 to 1720 kW) engine for helicopters and tiltrotors.
[edit] PT6D
The PT6D-114A is based on the PT6A-114A. The main difference is the deletion of the second stage reduction gearing and output shaft, as the engine is intended for integration with a combining gearbox incorporated power turbine governors and a propeller output shaft.[8]
[edit] ST6
The ST6 is a variant of the PT6 that was originally developed as a powerplant for the UAC TurboTrain locomotives, but later developed as a stationary power generator and auxiliary power unit.
[edit] Applications
[edit] PT6A
· AASI Jetcruzer· Aero Commander 680T (PT6 conversion)· Aero Ae 270 Ibis· Air Tractor AT-400· Air Tractor AT-501· Air Tractor AT-602· Air Tractor AT-802· Antilles Super Goose· Antonov An-28· Ayres Turbo Thrush· Basler BT-67· Beechcraft 1900· Beechcraft A36TC Bonanza (turbine conversion)· Beechcraft C-12 Huron· Beechcraft King Air· Beechcraft Lightning· Beech 18 series (turbine conversion)· Beechcraft Model 87· Beechcraft Model 99· Beechcraft RC-12 Guardrail· Beechcraft RU-21C Ute· Beechcraft Starship· Beechcraft Super King Air· Beechcraft T-6 Texan II· Beechcraft T-34C Turbo-Mentor· Beechcraft T-44 Pegasus· CASA C-212 series 300P· Cessna 208 Caravan· Cessna P210N (turbine conversion)· Cessna 404 Titan (turbine conversion)· Cessna 421C Golden Eagle (turbine conversion)· Cessna 425 Corsair/Conquest I· Conair Turbo Firecat· Conroy Tri-Turbo-Three· de Havilland Canada DHC-2 Mk. III Turbo Beaver· de Havilland Canada DHC-3 Otter (turbine conversions)· de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter· de Havilland Canada Dash 7· Dominion UV-23 Scout· Dornier Do 128 Turbo Skyservant· Dornier Seawings Seastar· Douglas DC-3 (turbine conversions)· Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirante · Embraer EMB 121 Xingu· Embraer EMB 312 Tucano· Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano· Frakes Mohawk 298· Frakes Turbocat· Gulfstream American Hustler 400· Grumman Mallard (turbine conversion)· Grumman Goose (turbine conversion)· Harbin Y-12· Helio AU-24 Stallion· IAI Arava· IAI Eitan· JetPROP DLX· KAI KT-1· Let L-410 Turbolet· NAL Saras· NDN Fieldmaster· FTS Turbo Firecracker· PAC 750XL· PAC Cresco· Piaggio P.180 Avanti· Pilatus PC-6/B Turbo-Porter· Pilatus PC-7· Pilatus PC-9· Pilatus PC-12· Pilatus PC-21· Piper PA-31P (turbine conversion)· Piper PA-31T Cheyenne· Piper PA-42 Cheyenne III· Piper PA-46-500TP Meridian· Piper T1040· PZL-130T Turbo Orlik and PZL-130TC-II Orlik· PZL M-18 Dromader (turbine conversion)· PZL M28 Skytruck· Quest Kodiak· Reims-Cessna F406 Caravan II· Saunders ST-27/ST-28· Scaled Composites ATTT· Shorts 330· Shorts 360· Short C-23 Sherpa· Socata TBM· Spectrum SA-550· Swearingen SA26-T Merlin IIA
[edit] PT6B
· AgustaWestland AW119 Koala
· Sikorsky S-76B
· Changhe Z-8F: License-built Chinese version of the Aérospatiale SA321 Super Frelon helicopter fitted with PT6B-67A turboshaft engines
[edit] PT6C
· AgustaWestland AW139
· Bell/Agusta BA609
[edit] PT6D
· Soloy Pathfinder 21

Chr's
H/Snort::ok:

PS: The new Viking 400 series Otter is a great machine, however I do have doubts as to its modernization perhaps being its weak point, and I only hope it is equally up to the old steam driven machines reliability.:ok:

[frigatebird]

One 'l' only in Port Vila - and Air Melanesiae had an 'e' . ;)

"I" was never in it, but knew the 'Boz' - as someone said on the Susi thread - 'Single Boz Concept' :ok:



AsAero - Put new technology Turbo-Diesels of about 500 h.p. in, (or a couple of the new R-R RR500TP's if installed engine weight is a problem, and they run on diesel as well) - IF there is still a market slot where it will fit. The 22 had a nice boxy fuselage for cargo and WAS STOL when the Allisons were outputing all their power. Not so sure the undercarriage needs to go up and down, considering the little speed gained for the complexity involved and its basic role.

[NNB]

I did 286 hours in ATO and enjoyed them all. Some were more challenging than others but she was as honest as the day was long!
my 10c worth
NNB:)

[hoggsnortrupert]

:mad: I knew that!

Ahhhhrrrrrrrrr.:ugh:


Chr's

H/Snort:ok:

[hoggsnortrupert]

From this period, an Identity I have on occasion wondered "What happened to Trader B" & his English rose?, haven't heard of him for yonks!

H/Snort.:ok:

[aeromariner]

Sadly, the Fuse is just a little small (by about 4 inches width and height from what i remember) to take LD containers - well they weren't invented in 1969 of course

[bilbert]

Re-engining would probably not be a viable option. It would require significant certification costs. The PT6A is too heavy and would need major structural changes to hang it out in fromt of the wing. The allison 250 engine issues were mainly gearbox, which I believe were eventually sorted by gearbox mods. The other issue was the 2.5 bearing failures which did not occur in helicopter installations.

[David Eyre]

Gippsland sold to Indian automotive and IT company
By Emma Kelly - Flightglobal.com - 4 March 2010

The acquisition of a majority stake in Australian general aviation manufacturer Gippsland Aeronautics by Indian automotive and information technology group Mahindra and Mahindra is expected to close shortly.

The acquisition will allow Victorian company Gippsland to restart production of the Nomad twin-turboprop, high-wing, short-field take-off and landing aircraft, which it has renamed the Airvan GA18.

Mahindra announced late in 2009 that it planned to purchase majority stakes in Gippsland and aircraft component and assemblies company Aerostaff Australia in a Rp1.75 billion ($38 million) deal. Mahindra, which is best known for utility vehicle and tractor manufacture, is jointly developing the NM5 general aviation aircraft with India's National Aeronautics Laboratory. Gippsland's product portfolio, which primarily comprises the GA8 Airvan, complements the NM5, says Mahindra.

The investment from Mahindra will cover the GA18 programme, says sales manager Marguerite Morgan. Gippsland is proposing an upgraded version of the 18-seat Nomad, featuring new engines, propellers, a glass cockpit and weight-saving measures including new batteries.

Gippsland purchased the certificate of type for the Nomad from Boeing Australia in June 2008, but the programme has slipped by six months, says Morgan, with a production aircraft now expected to be ready by the end of 2011 or early 2012.

The manufacturer has letters of intent for nine aircraft, plus expressions of interest, with considerable international attention shown at the recent Singapore air show, says Morgan.

[Stationair8]

Must be a few more Nomad stories lurking out in Pprune land.

[frigatebird]

If they are Nomad stories, they would be leaning or lurching, or staggering on one.. :)

[startingout]

Has any more come from the GA-18? Photos etc? :confused:

I can honestly say that my endorsement will not wanting to be put to use on one, just wanting to see how different it will be when they come into play.

[David Eyre]

Must be a few more Nomad stories lurking out in Pprune land.

I received the below message from Rick Bennett who used to fly Nomads, and he gave permission for it to be included here:

"I was Chief Pilot of Independent Air Transport, Wewak when we formed the company in January 1976.
IAT was the first customer (civil or military) to operate the Nomad.

We leased VH-ELN demonstrator from National ?? in Sydney who were designated Agents by GAF. After the conversion at Avalon, we delivered ELN to Wewak via a short (!!) CNS overnight stop.

I operated ELN and IAT on earthquake relief from Sentani for MAF for six months in 1976.

The shortest strip was Nalca, 150nm roundtrip. It was 6500 AMSL, 1200 ft length. First 1/4 10%, 2nd 18%, 3/4 12%, last 24% - into a short turning bay only 100 ft long. Had to do a 3 point turn to escape On takeoff, brakes release was V1......

At that radius of NM we carried the same payload (1300kg) as the Twotter which could not go into the mission strips. MAF liked the N22 so much that they bought their own and I endorsed their guys on it.

The CAA and the Insurance company waived all restrictions to achieve the mission - if i believed the performance figures, i could operate into any strip as per the charts.

I regretfully left IAT in Dec 1976 to join Ansett on the S61 at Proserpine. Another trip on the Nomad was at Avalon in 1977 to endorse Jed Clampett who replaced me at IAT.

I actually did fly the Nomad again in 1982 for a month with Douglas into the Jungle strips near the gap, as well as Kiantiba, Kanabea etc.

Lots of fun !!:)

Rick"

[onetrack]

Would I be correct in stating, that the Nomad has to be the only plane that killed both its TP (Stuart Pearce) and its designer in the one hit?? (David Hooper)...

For an exhaustive analysis of the Nomad, I believe you can't go past Lt Col Glen Duus (a pioneering 161 Recce man, and later, a RAEME w/shop commander) and his excellent dissection of the failures of both the machine and the system that created it...

Fourays - The Australian Army Aviation Association Inc (http://www.fourays.org/features_2005/nomad/nomad_1.htm)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

An excellent link Mr 'Onetrack'.

Sort of tells it like it really was...politics and all...:}

Thankyou.:ok:

[Zaephod]

While I agree with most of the Fourays article, I must cast doubt on any content I do not have personal knowlege of when I read that the T tail crashed "killing all on board". As the T tail never flew, perhaps he means the N24 prototype, which still didn't kill all on board. Ahh the internet, so much information, how much should we believe?

And how ironic would it be if the Army bought Caravans, 30-40 years after they redesigned (redesighned) the Nomad to a twin from the original concept (mock up) with single PT6 up front!

I am continually astounded by the average Australians view of the Nomad as a widowmaker from the whitewash produced by Four Corners, I have trouble believing anything I view on that show, which appears to be held in such high regard amongst the media and viewing public.

[frigatebird]

Nomad Demonstrator, Mangalore '82

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Mangalore/scan0016.jpg

[Zaephod]

NSCA Nomads outside the LTV base in Jan 85, now the Gippsaero Factory.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs132.ash2/39938_103985819658384_100001408993318_31900_1679069_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=50082&id=100001408993318)

Z.

[groper]

A very poorly designed and constructed piece of junk. Best left in the history books as a failure.

The Dog
Could not agree more. The thought of it making a comeback in any form gives me the creeps.:yuk:

[Stationair8]

What did NSCA use the Nomad for?

[Flingwing47]

The Allison 250 actually began its life in 1957 as a result of a US Army contest to provide power for a Light Observation Aircraft (LOA) in two versions, turboprop (fixed wing) and turboshaft (helo). The Army decided only to get LOHs with the turboshaft, and the Allison 250 B15C was first used in the Italian SIAI-Marchetti SM1019E first flown in 1969.

The sad loss of the Nomad at Avalon was caused by an elevator anti flutter strip being devised, attached and test flown without supporting wind tunnel tests. The test flight was done on a windy day - 30 knots plus down the strip.
Immediately after liftoff it became apparent that the aircraft was barely controllable in pitch. The PIC elected to turn downwind and lost control in that manoeuvre. The acft crashed with a tailwind of 35kts plus.

[Olive61]

Flew the N22 all over PNG for years, mainly into Cat D strips where the Twin Otter couldn't go. Never had an issue with the machine which could achieve amazing results in the right hands. RB JC DG JB PB KG and others ran the aircraft into some amazing places with exceptional results. Not a machine for fools though. G'Day Ricardo !

[shafs64]

I was involved with a group who are tracking the where abouts of nomad that are still flying in Australia and overseas the last Nomad to fly in here was VH-ATO I not 100 percent sure but i think its overseas now.

Paul

[VH-XXX]

ATO was previously operated by Commando Skydivers at Tooradin and was sold to Airlines of Tasmania if I recall correctly, saw it at Moorabbin a few times when they owned it.

Still registered in Australia however pictures are on the web of it in Bintulu Malaysia 2009 and Hamilton NZ 2007. Boy the old girl is getting around if those tags are correct!

[shafs64]

Yes you are right. I went out there and got some detailed pictures of it for a person who was going to build one for flight sim. There was one for fs 98 and one for 2002 I think would like to see for FSX.

When i saw the aircraft at Pakenham it was looking very rough a few years later i spotted it at YMMB and it looked a lot better. When I was skiing in NZ last year I drove past Lake Tekapo they have some N24s there. There is a really good DVD out on the N24 if was filmed in NZ where they seem to operate this aircraft with not much fuss.

Paul

[VH-XXX]

There is a poster on here whom has had a lot to do with ATO. Hopefully he reads this and maybe he can tell you a story or two about here, maybe like the wheels up landings or how the pilots used to put her into beta and try to descend vertically.

[Corkey McFuz]

how the pilots used to put her into beta and try to descend vertically.

Great. I have flown ATO and after hearing that, I am now glad I don't anymore. :yuk: :mad:


P.s yes those tags will be correct, it does get around. Has been up to Hong Kong a few times in recient years I believe :eek:



Reposted from a few pages back:

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee83/mrmcfuz/n1282630073_370861_4251717.jpg

Joy.

[shafs64]

Here means australia. So you saw one at YMMB was it a 22 or 24 did you get the rego?

By the looks of the rudder they have just started that decent.

found this link some pictures of ATO GAF N22B Nomad Walkaround Photos (http://www.grubby-fingers-aircraft-illustration.com/nomad_walkaround.html)


Paul

[VH-XXX]

Hey Corkie, she hasn't changed much in nearly 5 years, I guess that's the reason why the boneyard is in Tucson! I was a little disappointed during the tour at Pima as the commentator talked about every single aircraft, including mentioning that Aus were the only company still operating the F1-11, but yet he completely skipped the Nomad and made no mention of it.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee83/mrmcfuz/mini-P1010914.jpg

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/nomad.jpg

[Corkey McFuz]

Gosh yip not much changed at all there. That place was absolutely amazing. The scope and scale of what they have preserved there is unbelievable. It sure is a great thing they survive well out in that climate, imagine trying to hangar that whole collection of monsters :eek:

Thanks for the updated pic :ok:

[VH-XXX]

Was there straight after Oshkosh, Aug 2010. Big problems in the AMARC boneyard. They have had so much rain that the grass was growing everywhere all over the field, under aircraft and everywhere you wouldn't want it. Unfortunately long green grass under an aircraft is not conducive to long term storage. There were guys everywhere on ride-ons moving it.

All ok over at Pima, there's definitely no grass there.

[shafs64]

The thing that gets me in this forum is you have one pilot saying that it was the biggest **** box around. And then others saying it was great. Very opposing views. i am a love time pilot and only fly 172s. And i don't see myself flying a nomad. and why are the kiwi's still flying them are they better pilots than Australian pilots or the other countrys that fly them still

The only thing i can comment on is the fuel gauges. when was last time a pilot trusted his gauges thats why we have dip sticks.

Paul

[Capt Claret]

The only thing i can comment on is the fuel gauges. when was last time a pilot trusted his gauges thats why we have dip sticks.

I can tell you from experience that Nomad dipsticks are no more reliable than the gauges. On one sortie burnt more fuel on the 50 nm run to an outstation than I did on the 200nm run to the big smoke. According to the dipstick, that is. :ooh:

[Shell Management]

I flew one once. Very unerpowered and a poor HMI.

[tinpis]

and why are the kiwi's still flying them are they better pilots than Australian pilots or the other countrys that fly them still

Absolutely :ok: ask any Air Sheep driver.

[boofhead]

The Nomad was a great airplane brought down by the tall poppy syndrome. The great Australian cringe.

[Joker 10]

The Nomad and MU 2 both brilliant aircraft in their final certified state, both had difficult gestation and wildly differing opinions on their capabilities.

[startingout]

The safest way to fly the trusty nomad is full tanks or full tanks and tips and keep your eye on that debimeter...

[shafs64]

were they less cost effective than a piper navajo chieftain?

Paul

[tail wheel]

were they less cost effective than a piper navajo chieftain?

Totally different class of aircraft, different operations. The Nomad was mainly intended as a STOL bush utility aircraft.

Comparison should be to a DHC6 Twin Otter, Harbin Y12 or possibly a Let-410.

[tinpis]

5 hour stretches in this would be painful

http://www.flugzeuginfo.net/acimages/harbiny11_yuming.jpg

[shafs64]

ok then if the twin otter is what i should be looking at as a comparison would that aircraft cost more to run that a nomad. I know you can still pay 2mil for a twin otter and only five hundred thousand for a nomad.


And check out KSRQ on google earth this seems to be a n22 on floats parked there.

Also
So how many hour do you think this has on it before it ended up here.

Photos: GAF N-22S Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitled/GAF-N-22S-Nomad/1147314/L/&sid=125e5487514934b0f05d39657a72cc46)

[tail wheel]

ok then if the twin otter is what i should be looking at as a comparison would that aircraft cost more to run that a nomad. I know you can still pay 2mil for a twin otter and only five hundred thousand for a nomad.

Again no comparison - but I'm biased! :}

You would need to compare the GAF Nomad N24 with a de Havilland DHC6 Series 100/200. The Twin Otter is a slightly larger aircraft, more robust, better engines, simple fixed undercarriage around 850 built and now back in production again.

The Nomad was designed by a committee of public servants, fitted with helicopter engines and the Australian military thought so highly of the Nomad that they donated most to them to the Philippines and Indonesian military. :E

Tinpis, I said the Y12 - not Y11! := And those 9-cylinder air-cooled radial engines were only 213 kW (285 hp) each.

5 hour stretches in this would be painful

No more painful than a five hour stretch in Britain's revenge on the Empire, the Bongo Van! :{

[VH-XXX]

Spoke to an ex ATO (Nomad) Pilot today.

It was suggested that the aircraft would go past VNE within 10 seconds of a vertical dive and contrary to my earlier comment whilst you could try beta you would tear the engines off her apparently if you tried. (certainly can try zero thrust) He said based on this, the circumstances leading to that photo of ATO in a dive would be hard to come by!

The use of flaps in this beast was interesting given that the ailerons lower with them so anything more than 20 degrees could be quite challenging in gusty conditions if the "spoilers" weren't able to do the job.

Heard an interesting tale on what went on with the tail however I'll search and see if there's another thread on that before dragging it up again.

[tinpis]

It was suggested that the aircraft would go past VNE within 10 seconds of a vertical dive and contrary to my

Wrong. More like five seconds. The "Easing out of the subsequent dive " takes for bloody ever as well :uhoh:

[shafs64]

i would not won't to get it up near the VNE before pulling it out of the dive:sad:

[john_tullamarine]

if the "spoilers" weren't able to do the job.

The lateral control system was one of the Type's design strengths. Can anyone cite a similar-sized aircraft with similarly capable low speed handling ? One needs to keep in mind the original Military capability requirement which the beastie set out to satisfy.

Mind you, I saw some dreadful in-flight aileron failures as a consequence of cowboy operations overseas - quite amazing, really. I probably still have some photographs tucked away of some of them.

Heard an interesting tale on what went on with the tail

There were more than a few exaggerated tales about the tail - especially within ARMY's replacement gameplan and the Senate Enquiry.

As a consequence of Glen's death in -401 there was a little bit of ducking and weaving over who did what maintenance when during the post factory period. As far as I am aware, the last inspection done at the factory was by a colleague and mate no longer with us - a very thorough chap and I have no doubt that, had there been a detectable crack at that time, he would have picked it up.

Please do tell your tale and those within the PPRuNe community who know the inside story might be able to add some balance ...

Sure, there were some fatigue considerations with related inspection requirements. If the inspections were done correctly, the problems were able to be kept in the paddock as intended.

In addition, the frequency response was sufficiently low to allow one to see the tailplane do its shake, rattle and roll. However, similar things on other aircraft Types tend to be a little more difficult to see. Indeed, ASTA presented an interesting little video presentation at the Senate Enquiry which put paid to some of the wilder allegations about the tailplane's "unique" gyrations.

[shafs64]

I found this

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CE8QFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fresearchbank.rmit.edu.au%2Feserv%2Frmit%3A6 164%2FNorrison.pdf&ei=w8ehTc-TEo7-vQOcwc2OBQ&usg=AFQjCNG-Y_K7K3eaZjn8nMBV0U9KTiQpHw&sig2=irwyuxYB97jJAEmfr0xgHQ

[frigatebird]

Evidently somebody still wants one..

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Nomad/Nomad1.jpg

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Nomad/Nomad2.jpg

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Nomad/Nomad3.jpg

[VH-XXX]

That appears to be ATO during a probably recent 100 hourly.

[john_tullamarine]

I found this

not particularly pertinent but still interesting. A lot of initial flutter work was done by Izzy Herzberg back in the early days at GAF - as far as I am aware he still is on faculty at RMIT so that probably is some of the link up to the dissertation.

Evidently somebody still wants one..

I'm a bit out of touch with the Type now but, in previous days, those operators who used them for operations sensibly matched to the Type's strengths, couldn't get enough of them.

Very much a case of horses for courses was the Nomad.

[shafs64]

I would say you are right it look like ATO.

I wonder where that is? there seems to be a warbird parked next to it you can see the roundel near the nose. it seems to be a high wing type with a radial engine.

Paul

[VH-XXX]

At a guess, the Warbird would be this:

So whereever Frigatebird snapped this, is where you will find ATO.

http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy129/bird__photo/Warbirds/broussard2.jpg

[Wanderin_dave]

I seen dat Broussard and hangar before - Maryborough, QLD.

[baron_beeza]

Sorry to be a spoilsport.... Frigatebird wants to post them in good time so I have modified my post here...