Was the Nomad really that bad?

[frigatebird]

Aawwww.. Spoilsport. Thats overload.
Was just doling them out one at a time..

Do you work for ASIO..??

[NNB]

Cambridge Airport Tasmania is her home base but she spends most of her time away on photographic missions here and OS.
I have some great memories of flying her as a jump ship:ok:
blue skies all
NNB

[shafs64]

ATO must be owned by some one in Australia still. still has aussie rego.

Paul

[tail wheel]

VH-ATO
Manufacturer: GOVERNMENT AIRCRAFT FACTORIES
Model: N22C
Serial number: 108
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 12 April 1994
Year of manufacture: 1979

BAYSWATER ROAD PTY. LTD.
Suite 2
MACQUARIE PARK NSW 2113
AUSTRALIA

What is the history of that aircraft from 1979 to 1994?

[tasdevil.f27]

ATO is owned by Don Wells in Hobart (Airlines of Tas / Par Avion) and spends most of her time doing survey work in SE Asia.

[shafs64]

here is some more info

1981 The aircraft was completed.
08May1981 The aircraft was registered as VH-UHL.
19? The aircraft was re-registered as VH-ULF.
1981 The aircraft was acquired by the Government of French Polybesia Territorie Polynesie Francais. It was operated by U.T.A. French Airlines in Tahiti for various tasks including passenger flights, medical flights and carrying election ballots.
1981 The aircraft was re-registered as F-ODMX.
19? The aircraft was upgraded to a N22C.
19? The aircraft was acquired by Westcoast Aviation and re-registered as VH-ATO.
1994 Commando Skydivers began using the aircraft.
01Oct96 The aircraft was acquired as VH-ATO by Commando Skydivers, P.O. Box 164, Pakenham, Victoria, Australia
01Oct96 The register was updated to reflec the new owners.
? The aircraft was acquired by Airlines of Tasmania.
Nov2007 Ther aircraft flew from Australia to New Zealand.
200? The aircraft was moved to Borneo.

[VH-XXX]

Interesting comment about the upgrade to "C" model.

I heard that it took a lot of paperwork to convince CASA that it actually was a "C" model versus the "B" model that they thought it was. If I'm not mistaken it meant that you could carry 14 versus 16....? (jumpers)

[shafs64]

Ok i have to ask what the difference on the B version to the C


Paul

[djpil]

Been a long while (early '90s), straining the memory but I don't recall excessive paperwork. Vague recollection of a delay due to some query or issue - perhaps some-one will remind me.
Perhaps some-one mistakenly assumed that they were getting a C and found out late in the piece?
It needed some physical changes, again straining the memory - different wing struts was one I think.

[shafs64]

Can anyone put names to these guys.


http://www.cnapg.net/14638.jpg

[VH-XXX]

The guy on the far right looks a little like Ned Kelly.

[concrete wings]

Does anyone know where the two RAAF N24s ended up, #402/403? We took them down to Oakey from Tindal in around 1994/95 I think, where the ADF was to dispose of them.

They probably weren't a bad machine if they were powered by two PT6s, the flying tail plane was held on with more than two 5/16 bolts and the under carriage wasn't operated with bicycle chains! I was there when the damaged wings were changed, what a ****box!

[shafs64]

N24A-130.
19? The aircraft was registered as VH-HVK.
1990 The aircraft was sold to the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) and re-registered as A18-402.
199? The aircraft was based at Tindal, Northern Territory, Australia.
199? The aircraft was acquired by the Indonesian Navy and reserialed as P-836.


Paul

[djpil]

Second from left - Bill Prowse; fourth from left - Stuart Pearce.

[AussieO2]

A18-402, 12/6/97 to P-836.
A18-403, 12/6/97 to P-837, Crashed 07/9/2009, 5K.
Both with Indonesian Navy.

[shafs64]

Found this Picture of ZK-NAD


http://www.nomadfleet.com/Pic_NAD.JPG (http://www.nomadfleet.com/Pic_NAD.JPG)

[fencehopper]

Just a few from my collection when i was working and jumping from them WRT, SNX and BRP


http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/ozzieinoz/N222vhsnxonjacks2.jpg?t=1302688964

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/ozzieinoz/Untitled-7.jpg?t=1302688964

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/ozzieinoz/Untitled-16.jpg?t=1302688964

BRP wheels up after failed go around in thunderstorm

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/ozzieinoz/Untitled-5.jpg?t=1302688964

WRT found cracks and deformation in stub fin shortly after it came down from Lady Elliot found a few other scary things on it as well.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/ozzieinoz/N22Nomad.jpg?t=1302688964
Taken from SNX on a formation load over Picton

[VH-XXX]

Someone asked a while back what did the NSCA use the Nomads for?

As far as I recall mainly for parachuting, but of course for equipment transport, medical team transport and general duties. They were especially good at arriving at night, picking things up and dropping things off with the utmost of secrecy. Not even the security guard knew what was going on (so he told me years afterwards).

Was on-board their sail-training yacht the Peterson 44 off Wilsons Prom a long time ago. We had parachute teams dropped from the Nomad, land next to the (disabled) vessel, swim over, board unassisted, take control and sail the vessel back to Port Welshpool.

On some days, they jumped, swam to the yacht, took control, got picked up by another boat, motored to shore, picked up by helicopter, flown to airport, dropped by Nomad and the cycle starts again, over and over until they were buggered.

The fire-sale auction when it all wound up was interesting. Every bit of military but not military style equipment you imagine, including scuba re-breathers and other goodies. I wonder what happened to their Nomads.

I came across a car crash shortly after in Gippsland many years ago. Just as it happened an NSCA truck was driving past. He radioed a passing NSCA chopper with Para-Medical team on-board. The chopper landed and the crew of a few with all their gear straddled the barbwire fence like it was a foot high. These guys appeared to be amazing at what they did and had the highest level of fitness. It's always interesting to hear where these guys ended up.

[fencehopper]

Even with Freddo long gone i would not even think aloud some of the things i saw and i was not even part of them.
The skydiving community did rather well out of them tho when it all went west.

[shafs64]

Did you guys hear about Nomad that went in wheels up into some farmers paddock and they fixed it on the spot and but when they were on there takeoff run he drove in front of the aircraft and it ended up on its back wrecked.

Paul

[djpil]

Yes, I did. I can remember the location but little else about it.

[fencehopper]

Yep double flame out due to pilot not managing fuel transfer from wingtip tanks. VH DNM. happened at Leongatha (spelling) VIC. Pulled the gear up as both engines flamed out almost together. Low life farmer refused to let it to be flown out and plowed around aircraft then tried to sue for crop loss. Owner snuck in to fly it out some time later but farmer tried to ram him on takeoff left gear ran into rut and aircraft followed it then got caught up in the fence. tripped up then flipped onto back. while it was laying in the paddock farmer made it home to his chooks. Was eventually removed after court battle.
Be carefull about leaving your aircraft if landing out, as some states have crazy salvage claim laws. local jumpers fixed farmer at later date.
it was the first Nomad owned by Sydney Skydivers and was one of the better ones until that happened.
FH

[osmosis]

It's always interesting to hear where these guys ended up.
One of them became a lumper in a superstore warehouse on Whitehorse Rd Nunawading soon after NSCA closed down; waste of good resources.

[Stationair8]

Thanks for that bit of info VH-XXX.

Weren't the NSCA the first people in Australia to have night vision goggles?

Talking of the NSCA, remember the C208 they operated on parachute operations one year. Who else got an interview and a fly of the C208?

[shafs64]

So nothing happend to the Farmer he just got away with it?

Paul

[VH-XXX]

Like it or not, it sounds like the farmer probably did nothing wrong.

In any farmer's defence, it's not just the aircraft sitting the paddock that's causing problems, it's the soil discuption, the recovery operation, extra vehicles, onlookers, media attention and general disruption to his otherwise quiet existence. He also has to worry about it being damaged by his livestock.

[shafs64]

If you are looking at it from his point of view you are right. I tend to look at it from a pilots view seeing an aircraft get wrecked is a waste. Sounds like negations didn’t work out if the owner had to sneak in there to fly it out.


Paul

[fencehopper]

The paddock had not been used for productive farming for years before the incident. Farmer just tried to use it as a quick grab to make some cash. If he had taken the time to listen to the insurance people when they knocked on his door instead of running them off he would have learnt that he would have recieved a payout for inconvienience and any damage. Instead he got nothing in the end.

[ozaggie]

Serves the prick right. **********!

[shafs64]

I have a few photo's of SNX from about five years back it was haveing engine problems. It didn't have any it was parked at bankstown airport this was back when there were planes there.

Anyway where syd skydivers the last fly this plane and why did they stop flying it.

[D-J]

I was talking to a good friend of Phil (syd skydivers owner) a little while back & he mentioned that one reason they got ride of nomads was they were to expensive to run & nearly sent the operation broke. ( The chap I was speaking to was also an engineer, so I presume that relative to other skydive a/c the nomad was a bit deer to maintain)

[shafs64]

Yes that seems to be a common thing with the nomad here. Now I must ask the nomad that are flying in Asia are they cheaper to run over there due to labour cost?


Paul

[VH-XXX]

PS, anyone that thought this was ATO, apparently it isn't. Ity has a slightly different paint scheme.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee83/mrmcfuz/n1282630073_370861_4251717.jpg

[shafs64]

Will the Real ATO step forward Picture by alex G

http://www.cnapg.net/4892.JPG

[Stationair8]

Okay Bloggs once we have station passage, turn to intercept the outbound track, lower the gear and set up a nice steady rate of descent.
Any questions?

Looking through an old aviation magazine, it showed a photo of a N22 which was operated by Australian Air Charters out YMMB in the early 1980's. You can't seea callsign, but the aircraft is in a yellow and green colour scheme, any idea what the aircraft was used for?

[shafs64]

it could of been SNX same paint. I had a piture of SNX from a airshow at Essendon from 198? it had NSCA marking. when did they go under?

I remember something about the CEO haveing a dark side and he took his own life.

Paul

[VH-XXX]

There was an NSCA thread a while back, worth the search that one. Rumour has it that not a single funeral house saw his body :cool:

[Shrike135]

For once you might be close XXX

JOHN FRIEDRICH: Catch Me if You Can... (http://www.catchme.net.au/synopsis.html)

[AIREHEAD]

S8, Ausairs N22 was DMN or DNM, I can't queit remember which. I think they used it for freight out of King & Flinders Islands, and also servicing the Gabo Is lighthouse out of Mallacotta

[ps107]

http://www.nomadfleet.com/Pic_NAD.JPG

Thanks for the picture. Good to see it's still around. Do you know where it is now? I remember its wheels up landing in 1997 a few days after I was a passenger on it.

[tasdevil.f27]

ATO a few years ago, couldn't find my recent one.

IMG_0257 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/aviation_rutherford/2930270323/in/set-72157607922178428)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aviation_rutherford/2930270323/in/set-72157607922178428

[shafs64]

Was that picture of ATO taken in tassie? also i that N24 in the above picture is flying out of Kota kinabula these days

paul

[tasdevil.f27]

shafs64, yes was taken at LST. Also had a photo of it at LST back in late 2009 but can't find that one.

[shafs64]

Yes i thought it was LST good viewing spots there.

Paul

[Stationair8]

Did Air Tas use it on RPT out of Launceston?

[aeromariner]

If it had a serial number in the twenties (25??) then it was DNM the original customer was Department of National Mapping

[shafs64]

If it had a serial number in the twenties (25??) then it was DNM the original customer was Department of National Mapping


Are you talking about VH-ATO

found some more pictures link below


GAF Nomad N22 VH-HHW | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/40130427@N08/5041168408/in/photostream/)

[VH-XXX]

Did someone mention MIKE SIERRA FOXTROT ?

http://members.iinet.net.au/~bc_j400/msf.jpg

[PLovett]

S8,

Did Air Tas use it on RPT out of Launceston?

Negative. The aircraft was used by Aero Technologies (same owner - different purpose) for survey work. My memory is that it was purchased from a meat bombing concern in Vic. and was then refurbished before going surveying.

[shafs64]

Yes you are right and I took some pictures of the aircraft when it was used as a meat bomber. it looked a bit sad then.

And MSF is the first Rec aircraft to be used redcliffe.

they are trying to keep there cost down $250 HR

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Stationar8, a Nomad N24 was used by Executive Airlines/H.C.Sleigh Airlines out of Launceston under Reg203 ops to Flinders and King Islands over the summer season in the late 1970's.

[shafs64]

Do you know what the reg was?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yes - it was.:E

[Tmbstory]

As one who watched the Nomad at Kota Kinabalu enter a spin and crash killing all crew and passengers I must say that in my opinion the title is correct.

If I remember correctly all the passengers were members of the (then) Sabah State Government.

It was a tragic day.

Tmb

[By George]

6th of June 1976, 9M-ATZ on board Tun Haji Mohammad Fuad Stephens Chief Minister for the State of Sabah. During approach to land the aircraft 'lost control'. I don't know the results of this investigation but have always understood that it was a loading problem, aft C of G. If this is correct it cannot be the fault of the aeroplane. I remember a Twin-Commanche on Mornington island in the early seventies with a load of fan-belts on the back seats. Same result, the only bad design fault was the pilot.

[startingout]

Even now from what I hear the guys at Sabah are fairly conscious about the Nomad issues. I have not dealt with them much only a couple of passing convo's when I have been around but their nomad looks worse for wear.

[prospector]

"As one who watched the Nomad at Kota Kinabalu enter a spin and crash killing all crew and passengers I must say that in my opinion the title is correct."

There are a number of reasons, none of which are necessarily the fault of the aeroplane, that could have caused this event.\

To put the blame solely on the aircraft without any factual statement as to the method of operation, in particular, as has been mentioned, an aft C of G problem is of no value at all.

I have quite a few hundred hours operating the N22 in a variety of roles, and if it was handled as per the manual it carried out its tasks quite adequately. The aft C of G being one problem that had to be avoided with adequate oversight of loading requirements.

[Bob Morane]

With around 1000hrs on N22 I agree with Prospector, You have to check your load and trim. Example: Took off once out of Wewak (PNG ) with a full load of American tourists and no luggage ( nose and rear cargo compt empty ) As soon I was Airborne I had the flight control yoke against the Instrument panel, I was out of trim . On the return leg I put the biggest bloke out of the lot sitting in the right seat and it made a big difference. Nevertheless I think that the nomad was a poorly designed Aircraft, Underpowered and unstable in turbulence. The only things that was positive was its STOl capabilities and great visibility.

[tinpis]

How do you blame an aircraft design if its incorrectly loaded?

[shafs64]

It seems like most of the nomads that are used outside the military are used around Kota Kinabalu? i think there are four of them around that area.

At kamman tafe in melbourne there where two teachers talking about the nomad one was bagging it the other siad that if a twinotter crashed in PNG it was pilot error. if it was a nomad if was the aircrafts fault.



Paul

[startingout]

Shafs, there are a few nomads in malaysia at the moment, 2 with Layang Lanyang and one with Sabah. There is also one in Subang which is i think OY rego'd but they are trying to get onto the 9m register but after years of abuse in the netherlands the N24's gearbox is gone in the right engine. seems as if the CP of Layang has alot to do with it but they will be using it :zzz: as a medivac for some KL company.

[shafs64]

Thanks startingout OY could of been one of airsafari's NZ nomads at one time.

There is also a N24/cn42 Parked stored at a place called Peenemunde an WW2 airfield.


ex gum air out of south america,

Photos: GAF N-24A Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/GAF-N-24A-Nomad/1548559/&sid=7946516d56e78e24dffbf4b1dd38ec99)

[aeromariner]

The all flying tail on the nomad did result in some control issues, particularly with TO flap. At low speeds and power with flap, and the CG aft, there wasn't much control travel left to push the nose over (especially if it was pitching up already). Using the trimmer to try to fix this problem on the all flying tail didn't help, because it just replaces pilot force with tab deflection, and the tailplane stays more or less in the same position. A trimmable tailplane with a conventional elevator is much better, since you can swap elevator authority for tailplane position - mind you that works both ways, and electric trim runaways in trimmable tailplanes are historically bad. MOD 211 was introduced on Nomad during N24 certification and increased nose down pitch control authority (essentially stick forward movement) by a large margin. CG abuse trials were not part of certification test flying in 1976. The baggage handlers at Sabah always reckoned that the nose wheel was scrubbing as he taxied out which suggests a CG well aft.

[Tmbstory]

Aeromariner:

The thing that stays in my mind is that from the time the Nomad entered the spin on the base leg until the time it hit the ground / water, there was no sign of any recovery such as rotation rate or engine noise, it just kept on spinning.

Tmb

[AussieO2]

N24A #74, OY-NMH, x ZK-NMH x N870US x PH-HAG x N5579M x VH-PNF. Pretty sure it is as a meat bomber over there., or has Layang got hold of it now? The latter has 2 x N22, #69 and #95. #69 was with RFDS prior.

[bekolblockage]

Think it was VH-ATO that was here in Hong Kong recently, for the second time in a couple of years. Doing a LIDAR survey for the Government for about 2-3 months.
Understand it took about a month to fly it up here from Tassie!!!


a Nomad N24 was used by Executive Airlines/H.C.Sleigh Airlines out of Launceston under Reg203 ops to Flinders and King Islands over the summer season in the late 1970's.

Yes, recall that when I worked in Launy. Seem to also recall a bit of DME aerial trimming one day due to a quick touch and go on the pods. ;)

You fly the Herons CLX?

[aeromariner]

Tmb
The only thing that might have helped was to pull the power off and retract the flaps the minute the horn sounded. Given the paddle wheel, that takes one hand, and I'm not sure closing the throttles and retracting the flaps would have been intuitive once the horn was sounding . There wasn't a great g break at the stall with power on, even during accelerated stalls and rudder effectiveness would have been marginal. But it would only have taken a few seconds to get deep into the stall with a high rate of descent .....

[Aye Ess]

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/N24GreenIsland.jpg?t=1308097497

Acrylic on stretched canvas 40cm x 50cm.

Air Queensland (BPA) operated 2 Nomads.First was the N22 VH-RCC,then this one N24 VH-BRP. They were used on the coastal surveillance contract. Crewed by one pilot & down the back, one observer who could look out of the bubble perspex windows second from the back.

The aircraft were based in Cairns,so I've depicted Green Island resort under the aeroplane.

[Jerry Reeder]

I flew 600 hours in the N22 in the mountains of Irian Jaya (now called Papua; not PNG). It was a great airplane for our use. In a Cessna 206 we could carry 3 55 gallon drums (44 gallon drums if you're Aussie). But you had to leave the passenger side door open about 3 inches to get them all in. In the N22 we could carry a refrigerator, an upright piano, and 7 55 gallon drums and go to all the same places the C-206 could go.

It had one serious flaw: weak tail feathers. In a static full-power check the tail would waggle and bobble all over the place. We were getting airworthiness directives from GAF all the time to add brackets and otherwise beef up the tail. We didn't think too much of it because we were used to watching the DC-3's do the same thing for decades and they were still going strong.

Then one day it came apart in the air at 13,000 feet. The pilot had just crossed the central highlands and started his descent towards his destination on the South coast of New Guinea. The plane spread itself in a straight line over 2 miles of jungle. The last thing found at the end of the debris field was the pilot still strapped in his seat lodged in the fork of a tree six feet from the ground. Could have been me.

Our own investigation concluded a dynamic vibration in the tail tore it off resulting a violent down pitch. The serial number was in the 20's and it had more airframe hours than other at the time. Except for that, it was great airplane.

[tail wheel]

This accident?

Date: 23 JUL 1979
Type: GAF Nomad N.22B
Operator: Missionary Aviation Fellowship - MAF
Registration: PK-MAJ
C/n / msn: 28

[aseanaero]

It had one serious flaw: weak tail feathers. In a static full-power check the tail would waggle and bobble all over the place

I witnessed this myself on VH-SNX during a skydiving meet at Lower Light in SA , the tail assembly was oscillating a good 30 cm in each direction

[john_tullamarine]

the tail assembly was oscillating a good 30 cm in each direction

Perhaps not quite that much, albeit the old girl can put on a good shake, rattle, and roll show ?

Any structure will vibrate if you hit it with some excitation at the the right sort of frequency. Nomad is no different in that regard. One relevant difference is that the tail assembly oscillates at frequencies low enough to see easily during ground run ops.

Years ago I did a video comparison between Nomad and a number of other aircraft on high power ground ops with no undue surprises surfacing.

[aeromariner]

The problem with the tailplane was compounded by the thin skins on the fuselage cone which resulted in high twisting or torsional deflections. It was the asymmetric nature of the vibration which brought the tailplane undone. Part of production test flying for each airframe was a dive to 206 knots, and when the indon defence forces nomads came up for flying, the rear bubble window gave us the first chance to look at the tailplane outside of formation flying. So .....during a production test flight down to the back of the aeroplane did I trot, full of optimism. It was not a pleasant sight - you'd swear it was a rag tailplane and the dope had died. Shortly afterward stiffeners were added which kept it in shape a little better at speed. But the buffet induced from the wing with some combinations of flap and power (and that includes ground running) were large given that the tailplane was in the perfect position to suffer it.

[fchan]

#319

Date: 23 JUL 1979
Type: GAF Nomad N.22B
Operator: Missionary Aviation Fellowship - MAF
Registration: PK-MAJ

Met an air crash investigator in Irian Jaya in 1979 who was investigating this accident. He was convinced that a prop or prop blade had come off and killed the pilot and was the result of a faulty overhaul of the prop. This was I think before he had visited the crash site or seen the wreckage although others had so he was going on their reports I guess. If true it is probably not a Nomad problem as such as that engine /prop is likely to be used on other types as well.

[aeromariner]

LS28 which was originally destined to become the first floatplane. It had some of the forward float attach fittings. It pulled enough g to fail the struts. I don't think there was ever a cause established, but it looked like violent flight manoeuvres subsequent to loss of control.

[NNB]

hello there
ATO was a GAF N22C air frame 108.
She was happy to cruise at 145kts but in my time in her she spent very little time in cruise!
keep well all
NNB

[layingback]

I fly VH-ATO sometimes for the company that I work for. It's still a great machine and the only one left flying in AUS

[Old Akro]

the tail assembly was oscillating a good 30 cm in each direction

Have you seen the in-flight NASA flutter tests of a Twin Comanche on Youtube?

[Lumps]

Have you seen the in-flight NASA flutter tests of a Twin Comanche on Youtube?

I have now! How was this done? I am assuming that something has been done to the PA30 to get it to do that! Like taking a spar out! I hope

[Old Akro]

I believe the NASA test was a standard Twin Comanche but flown above VNE, but I'm not sure. There is a fabulous article by someone from Robertson STOL about Twin Comanche flutter caused by slack elevator cables.

[NNB]

yes - she is the last N22 on the Oz register. Gippy Aero have an ex NZ N24 on the Oz register as a test bed for their program to re-introduce the N24 or its replacement.
ATO was kind to me, I hope she continues to look after you in her photo mapping role.
blue ones
NNB:ok:

[Trojan1981]

Not sure if this has been posted yet. GippsAero's testbed Nomad arriving at Latrobe Valley (not my video).

vh-xgz_nomad_landing_at_gippsaero_1280x720_zps0d414fdc.mp4 Video by trojan1981 | Photobucket (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/trojan1981/media/vh-xgz_nomad_landing_at_gippsaero_1280x720_zps0d414fdc.mp4.html )

[dubbleyew eight]

did you know that the turbine conversion of the Seawind amphibian used the firewall forward turbine installation from a Nomad.
the guys doing the Seawind conversions rated the Nomad installation quite highly.

(sorry. I should have posted this in useless facts :-) )

[Pinky the pilot]

Gippy Aero have an ex NZ N24 on the Oz register as a test bed for their program to re-introduce the N24 or its replacement.

With regard to the above and the recent report I read somewhere which stated that Gippsland Aero was supposedly laying a number of employees off, (which has not been mentioned on these boards AFAIK) I wonder if this will have any effect on the Nomad project?

Anyone in the know wish to comment?

[VH-XXX]

I heard that the Nomad replacement development project is on hold until such time that things pick up and some aircraft are sold....

[Givelda]

Have you seen the in-flight NASA flutter tests of a Twin Comanche on Youtube?I spoke last week to the NASA test pilot who flew the flutter tests before he went onto bigger things.

He told me that they incrementally increased the speed to 195 kts when the tailplane started to dance. Vne was 178 kts I believe. Should have asked him how he managed to get it up to 195 but my mouth was wide open by then.
(Also should have asked if he managed to find a way to land it smoothly - I never did, even using the "flap" theory, but that's another thread I guess.

In case it all went wrong, he of course had a chute, but he doubted he could have got out the door although by then he would have not needed to worry about the tailplane being there to whack him on the way down!!!

Anyway, back to this thread and earlier posts # 136 and 223, here is our American G-22 at Pima last week. Now missing the radome. Funny how it is parked in between some really heavy machines and not in the light aircraft section in the middle of the park. Seemed to be in fairly good condition after all of these years.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/8233/nomad02sml.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyinsing/8908479630/

[VH-XXX]

I did the Pima tour a couple of years back and I posted a pic of the same aircraft here. I was disappointed that the tour guide never even mentioned this amazing Australian built marvel during the tour :-). He basically spoke of every other aircraft in the yard except for the Nomad :-(

[aeromariner]

I'm fairly sure one of the few comanche 400s on the aus register broke up after tailpane flutter

[gassed budgie]

I'd always thought that the production Comanche 400's left the factory with the Apache/Aztec tailplane bolted on (so to speak) down the back. Structurally it was a more substantial unit than the stock standard Comanche stabilator.

[aeromariner]

I'm not sure the aztec tailplane would have done much for flutter margin. The usual bogy of loose control cables was involved

[Seagull V]

Wikipedia, if you can believe everything they print, says,
The PA-24-400 Comanche 400,while identical in plan form to other single-engined Comanches, is structurally strengthened, primarily in the tail. The aircraft has an extra nose rib in the stabilator and in the vertical fin. The stabilator, vertical fin, and rudder of the 400 share virtually no common parts with the 180, 250, and 260hp (190 kW) Comanches. In addition, the 400's rudder is aerodynamically balanced in a manner similar to that of the Piper PA30 Twin Comanche and does not have the lead external balance weights of the lower-powered single-engine Comanches.

No mention of a PA24-400 structural failure in Australia in the ATSB accident report database that I can see.

[AussieO2]

Can anyone advise if the 'unsold' Nomads were flown to Oaklands for storage from Avalon? Just can't seem to find an aerodrome listed for Oaklands. ASTA commenced sending them out there about March 1984.

[tipsy2]

I remember seeing Nomads at Oaklands in the mid to late 80's.

I don't think there was an airfield as such but there are/were any number of suitable paddocks about at the storage place.

Never got close to them though as I flew past.

Tipsy.

[GregP]

Pitty i didn't see theses posts before. I conducted the last inquiry into the crash of a N22 in Australia ... Army A303 at Cheviot Hills near the town of Drake (Nth NSW) in 1992/3.

Almost everything negative written about the aircraft is utter dross. I ordered multiple tests of the aircraft and i flew one ... it was a seriously good aeroplane and had virtually no peer in its designed operational profile(s).

[Lead Balloon]

Wow - good to see someone of your expertise here, GregP.

So what were the "designed operational profile(s)", was the Army operating the aircraft within that/those profile/s and, if yes, what was the cause of the "crash" to which you referred? (I confess that the word "crash" is not one that I usually associate with experts in aviation.)

The information that I have suggests that the airframe was designed around a bunch of assumptions that were not satisfied in real operations. If an aircraft is designed on the basis of an assumption that it will spend only e.g 10% TIS at low level in turbulence, but the reality is that the aircraft spends e.g. 50% TIS at low level in turbulence, the outcome seems pretty obvious.

[gerry111]

"Almost everything negative written about the aircraft is utter dross."

Army aviation's A18-303 N22B Nomad was destroyed in an accident on 9th September 1991 somewhere not too far from Tenterfield NSW.

GregP, Please give me more information as to why you think the Nomad was such a great aircraft. I reckon that they were not. My understanding is that they had poor single engine performance along with a fairly critical C of G loading. Plus the tailplanes were vulnerable to severe flutter that caused at least one to break up whilst flying.

(RIP to RAAF ARDU pilot: Flt Lt Glenn Donovan who was killed in N24A A18-401 on 12th March 1989 at Mallala in S.A. when this happened.)

[ramble on]

...... senior military people are worthless politicians and yes men.

The actor Guy Pearce lost his Dad (a test pilot) in one when he was very young...

GAF was also responsible for the wings coming off a Macchi killing a pilot in the early 1990s. Senior military initially tried to blame the pilot for breaking the spar until it was discovered that the weakness originated from inaccurately hand drilled (yes with a hand drill by an unskilled employee) spar holes.

[Al E. Vator]

Nice to hear something positive about this aircraft. I still think with tweaking of the problem areas this could be a great aircraft. The likes of Tecnam are making plastic commuter aircraft and they know there's a huge market. Similarly, Kodiak and the Caravan have such good prospects where they replace Islanders etc that a rebranded and renamed N24 would surely be a great success if marketed by the right organisation.

[dhavillandpilot]

I thought Gippsland Had bought the rights to build the N24.

Didn't they buy the New Zealand one as a sample?

[cirrus32]

Yes, there's an N22 in the hangar at LTV

[Band a Lot]

Nomad = GAF - Government Aircraft Factory.

The Bean Counter has the last say!


Original concept seemed far better. PT6',s 32 thou skins and standard tail from memory then $ tumbled and needed cutbacks.

[GregP]

In broad terms, the Nomad's operational profile was as, obviously, a twin with exceptional short field performance in and out unprepared strips capable of delivering a couple of sections of equipped troops or substantial and bulky materiel. And that it did with aplomb ...the SASAR had no complaints with it(!).

AS to single engine performance, at MGTOW it struggled a bit but then is there any other aircraft in that class which doesn't(?).

'A crash near Tenterfield' .. as i said, in 1992/3 at Cheviot Hills near the town of Drake (Nth NSW) west of Casino and not far from Texas.

The assertion that aerodynamic flutter was responsible for the crash is complete nonsense. We were unable to positively ascribe a 100% certain cause however, we readily ruled out flutter causing airframe dismemberment because; 1) ALL of the airframe was at the same place (ie, no part of the aircraft came adrift prior to collision with the reentrant down which the aircraft collided and 2) this was a very low speed accident. So forget flutter.

The most likely cause was due to an engine fire/failure of #2 engine wrongly handled by the flying pilot (PNGDF) at very low level on a max-performance departure out of the field into which he (and the two other aircraft in the flight) had flown. Strong evidence for that finding was metallurgical evidence which indicated clearly that #2 engine was making some but much less than (appropriate) than #1 and that soot was found in places under the cowls which were otherwise untouched by the post-crash fire.

It was initially postulated that the Senior Instructor (the 'SI') seated in the right seat may have pulled #2 by way of test on departure by closing the RH low pressure cock or that he may have suffered a cardiac or cerebral infarct (he was a big man, after all) but I ruled those out in light of evidence that witness marks on the stops of the low pressure cock were definitely caused at impact being located on the opposite sides from where, in the test i ordered, they would have occurred if the cock's operating lever had been moved to the 'off' position prior to impact. Secondly, i led a lot of evidence from other QFIs (Qualified Flying Instructors) and line pilots who'd flown with the SI to the effect that that was not his practice.

Moreover, I had another aircraft adopt the deck angle which A303 would have adopted upon departure out of the strip and there was no way a RH seat occupant would have slump forward if incapacitated at that time.

As to control surface flutter assertions, i led evidence from a QFI and practicing aeronautical engineer who had been tasked to investigate quite a number of pilots' snags including reports of flutter which he was unable to replicate. [One snag alleged that the aircraft was unable to achieve VR (at Mt. Isa from memory); the aircraft was tested by the QFI/engineer and demonstrated to be complete rubbish. Likewise a concocted complaint that the control wheel "pumped" during cruise!]

During the Inquiry, i showed film of an N22 stabilator shaking markedly. Quite impressive except at the time, only one engine was operating and on full power at that .. of cause it shook!

During the A303 Inquiry, i also reviewed the aircraft which crashed when undergoing development flying under DSTO control when it lost its stabilator. Clearly the cause of that accident was due to a certain organization failing to inspect the aircraft before hand-over to DSTO, which would have detected a crack in the stabilator main spar for which there was an available, simple and effective repair scheme already on the shelf.

The Nomad was/is a good aircraft.

[Stanwell]

Involve public servants AND bean-counters in a project? .. Any project??
You'll have to excuse me - I'm going to have to go outside for a few minutes. :oh:

[Capt Claret]

a twin with exceptional short field performance in and out unprepared strips

Working for Whittaker Air way back when, we used to take 1200 kg of freight into Lady Eliot Isl, 600 m, high water mark to high water mark. Fairly impressive I thought.

[Lead Balloon]

Hello again, Greg

What assumptions were made in the design of the Nomad about the percentage of its TIS that would be spent in moderate and severe turbulence?

[djpil]

the GAF was also responsible for the wings coming off a Macchi killing a pilot in the early 1990s.nope, suggest you do the research before you defame people.

[GregP]

I'm not privy to the aircraft's initial design and test parameters along the lines you're citing however, given that the wings are fully strutted and that i know that an exceptionally well qualified pilot rolled one a few times in testing, I'd be confident that it was/is a really tough ship. It was certainly no pussy in and out of dreadful paddocks and the like.

Moreover, so far as i was able to establish during A303's Inquiry there were no reports from anywhere of any insults to the type's structural integrity, including ALL control surfaces.

With respect to certain people (many of whom i nevertheless regard well), their various complaints about the aircraft were proven to be confected for reasons i was never able to get to the bottom of. [Although I've always suspected that they were not wildly enthusiastic about the Nomad because they may have thought that it's inclusion in their log books might not have been particularly impressive to a prospective airline employer? But perhaps I'm speaking out of order ...]

[ramble on]

djpil

Please feel free to correct my post with your facts. It has been 26 years.

And me blaming any young technician is almost analogous to holding a toddler guilty for any firearms offence. It is/was not them it is/was the system.

[Flingwing47]

www.pprune.org/members/232596-flingwing47-albums-touch-go.html

The arrival of leased VH-ELN atWewak, early 1976.
The first Nomad into service - civil or military.

[jas24zzk]

Thanks for that insight GregP.

I've always loved the Slomad. We made it...who could hate!

Seems to be plenty!!!

As much as the nickname of the Airvan to be Scarevan is amusing, its highly typical of the Australian way, which procedes in an orderly Fashion, and not limited to Aviation...

1. Design/produce something great
2. Slag the hell out of it because you can't do better.
3. Complain when the idea is sold overseas
or
4. Celebrate the demise of the company/product

The whole aussie attitude towards home grown products/idea's does my head in.

Cheers
Jas

[Al E. Vator]

Jas - excellent point. Why do we do this in Australia?

Countries of similar or smaller size produce excellent aircraft and do so profitably.
Canada = Bombardier and Viking,
Switzerland = Pilatus,
Sweden = Saab.
The Czech 's are getting into what seems a great market with a smart product in the Evector.

With the demise of avgas and a massive market that never disappeared and is getting bigger (tourist operations, rough strip, third-world, and parcel express to small communities) there is plenty of money to be made with a rugged and practical product. Look at the success Kodiak has had and the Caravan just keeps on keeping on.

With some sound financial backing plus decent engines and tweaks of the troublesome components, the Nomad must be a great shortcut for any savvy producer to leap into the market without the hassle of initial design and certification.

Slick rebranding and a glossy 2020's livery would see this aircraft take up where it left off and do way, way more. Without hopeless government interference and that Aussie knock-everything-we-do mentality, there is no reason the Nomad couldn't enjoy a huge resurgence.

[Al E. Vator]

Plus with the right paint-scheme I reckon she was a pretty cool looking beast.

Photos: GAF N-22B Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Australia---Army/GAF-N-22B-Nomad/2399565/L/&sid=7b105009417b750b689cbb73f0b4c22f)

Photos: GAF N-22B Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Australia---Army/GAF-N-22B-Nomad/2129864/L/&sid=7b105009417b750b689cbb73f0b4c22f)

Great Vis: Photos: GAF N-24A Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Safaris/GAF-N-24A-Nomad/1682252/L/&sid=7b105009417b750b689cbb73f0b4c22f)

Not a particularly flattering livery but a great photo: Photos: GAF N-24A Nomad Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-Safaris/GAF-N-24A-Nomad/1400276/L/&sid=7b105009417b750b689cbb73f0b4c22f)

[Stanwell]

Great pix, Al.
So what are the Indians doing with it? I'm a bit out of date.
Anyway, Vic Walton told me it was a good'un and that was good enough for me. :ok:

[Band a Lot]

So keep twin turboprop (garret 331) or fit a couple of fans off a VLJ?

Make it at 5699kg MTW machine too.

[Lead Balloon]

I'll give it to you straight, GregP: I don't think the ADF's use of the Nomad took proper account of the configuration, role and environment in which the ADF used the aircraft, compared with the design assumptions.

That's not to say it wasn't a great aircraft. But any great aircraft can be turned into something else if it's used in configurations, roles or environments that weren't taken account of in the original design assumptions and instructions for continuing airworthiness.

[Sunfish]

Jaz; As we used to say at HdH (and probably CAC and GAF efore) in regard to Australian product; who wants a posting to Fishermans Bend or Bankstown? If they buy overseas there is a lovely posting for a few years to St Louis, Seattle, Los Angeles, Toulouse or London and suchlike.

[dubbleyew eight]

the nomad turbine installation, firewall forward, was the engine of choice for the turbine seawind.
cant have been all that bad.

[GregP]

Lead Balloon, thank you for 'giving it to me straight'. And your qualification(s) for those remarks are??

[Lead Balloon]

Zero qualifications and no knowledge, Greg. Just wild speculation that the original design and ICA were based on assumptions about the typical mission profile in which the aircraft would be engaged, and more wild speculation that the ADF actually engaged the aircraft in missions that involved much, much more TIS in turbulence and higher G manoeuvring (as a consequence of more low level operations) than was assumed in the design and ICA.

But as I say: just wild speculation.

[GregP]

Lead Balloon, "wild" speculation all right. And wildly off the mark.

[CoodaShooda]

GregP

Wasn't there an issue with the published flap extension speed not incorporating a safety factor, resulting in near-death experience at Tindal in the late 80's/early 90's.

[GregP]

The Tindal 'incident' was reviewed as part of the A303 Inquiry and was revealed to be a sham along with one (or two?) other false reports of alleged 'misadventure' at Mt.Isa.

[Lead Balloon]

I would also wildly speculate that the typical mission in which the Flying Doctor engaged the aircraft was different than the typical mission in which the ADF engaged the aircraft, and that the latter put the airframe under substantially more stresses than the former.

But again, mere wild speculation.

Do you have any facts to show that the aircraft design and ICA took into consideration the configurations, roles and environments in which the ADF actually used the aircraft? What do you say was/were the likely cause/s of the in flight tailplane failures?

[GregP]

More 'wild speculation' ... for goodness sake man. And just who do you think would be privy to the kind of design data you're referring to? Try getting that sort of material out of Boeing or Airbus for example .. you're not serious surely??

As to tail plane failures, there was only one: As i explained above, the one which crashed while in DSTO custody was due to the organization which had prior custody of the aircraft not carrying out a mandatory inspection before hand-over which would have discovered a stabilator spar crack for which there was an available repair kit waiting on the shelf.

End of 'speculation' ... thank you.

[gerry111]

172 Nomads were built.


In an ABC '7-30 Report' on 27 Jul 04, it was reported that 19 aircraft had crashed with 56 deaths.


Not a particularly good record of safety.

[gerry111]

GregP,


As you well know, the Nomad was manufactured by a Federal Government owned aerospace manufacturer: GAF which later became ASTA.


So I'm surprised that you, as a government employed investigator, were not privy to the kind of design data Lead Balloon refers to.


Did you ask for it?

[john_tullamarine]

due to the organization which had prior custody of the aircraft not carrying out a mandatory inspection before hand-over which would have discovered a stabilator spar crack


A long time ago and the memory may be a tad deficient .. I don't recall that that was the case (a good mate did the last inspection prior and he was a bit of a stickler for detail) and, if my recollection be correct, there was a subsequent inspection which was deferred ?


djpil's recollections may be better than mine ...

[Lead Balloon]

And just who do you think would be privy to the kind of design data you're referring to?And if you did not have access to and consider that data in your investigations GregP, your opinions about the adequacy of the aircraft's design and ICA in the context of the configurations, roles and environments in which the ADF operated the aircraft were, and remain, wild speculation.

[djpil]

JT, if you are talking about that LAME at Avalon - he took the tailplane off for inspection on the bench.

[john_tullamarine]

That doesn't suggest the inspection either was overlooked or incompetent ? Indeed, even years later, he would agonise over a coffee as to whether he could have missed something in the nature of a crack in its embryonic development .. lovely fellow and a fine tech.

[currawong]

Question for GregP or someone else that knows -

How did the Nomad rate compared to the Porter?

Thanks.

[ramble on]

Hey GregP,

How about you tell us more about the Tindal sham and the Mt Isa misadventure?

Or perhaps relate to us all the ATC transcript from Glenns loss in Adelaide?


Australian Broadcasting Corporation
TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT
LOCATION: 7.30 Report - 27/07/2004: The history of the widow maker revealed (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1163290.htm)

Broadcast: 27/07/2004
The history of the 'widow maker' revealed

Reporter: Peter McCutcheon

KERRY O'BRIEN: The recent suicide of a former Army aircraft fitter has shed new light on a sorry chapter in Australia's aviation history.

The Australian designed Nomad aircraft gained notoriety in the 1970s because of its poor safety record.

But despite warnings about possible design faults, the Nomad - sometimes referred to as "the widow maker" - wasn't grounded by the military until 1995.

Earlier this year, one of the technicians who worked on the aircraft in the early 90s took his own life.

His widow is now fighting for official recognition that he too was a victim of the Nomad scandal.

Peter McCutcheon reports.

MADONNA PAUL: It's never been about the money, it's about the fact that they damaged all of our family's lives and they never recognised it, they covered it up.

PETER McCUTCHEON: On a deserted beach at Cungulla south of Townsville, Madonna Paul is still coming to terms with her husband's suicide five months ago.

Former Army aircraft fitter Michael Paul suffered from a psychiatric illness that, according to his widow, began more than a decade earlier after a crash of the now notorious Nomad aircraft.

REPORTER: ...lost radio contact and crashed around 10 this morning.

MADONNA PAUL: He had worked on that aircraft that crashed.

He signed that aircraft up and it killed his friends.

He never really got over that day.

He came home from work and he was a different man.

And from years later, when I look back at the incident and from that night, that changed our lives forever.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's personal tragedy is tied up in the final years of the Nomad scandal.

This Australian-designed transport aircraft was once the hope of the local aviation industry, but in two decades of service 19 Nomads crashed, resulting in 56 deaths.

And as Four Corners revealed in 1995, a number of design defects, including stress cracks in the tail plane, were in effect covered up by Defence officials.

PAUL HUGHES, NOMAD DESIGN ENGINEER: Everybody was supposed to be behind the Nomad because it was Australian, because it was designed here and you weren't supposed to knock it.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A qualified boilermaker before joining Army aircraft maintenance, Michael Paul started working on the Nomads at the Oakey base in south-east Queensland in late 1989.

As a fitter, he had no authority to ground an aircraft, but he was required to sign off on the work he completed.

His wife says he raised concerns about the Nomad's design problems, only to be threatened with disciplinary action.

MADONNA PAUL: He just said, "This is just not meant to fly."

The aircraft was dangerous, and he kept saying that.

PETER McCUTCHEON: And he was told by his commanding officer to keep quiet?

MADONNA PAUL: Yes.

"Keep quiet, sign it up or you'll be charged."

PETER McCUTCHEON: But the situation changed from professional frustration to emotional devastation in 1991 when a Nomad Michael Paul had worked on crashed in northern New South Wales, killing four people, including a close friend.

When did you first notice your husband was having difficulties?

MADONNA PAUL: From that night of the accident, after the accident occurred, he came home, he was just numb and he went to the garage and sat in the dark.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A subsequent investigation was unable to determine the cause of the accident, but others suspect the Nomad's alleged design faults.

Tony Seivl is a former senior flying instructor at Oakey who had resigned a year before the accident in protest over the Nomad's safety problems.

He was a friend of Lynn Hummerston, the pilot killed in the 1991 crash.

Although he was unwilling to be interviewed for this report, Tony Seivl stands by his comments to Four Corners nine years ago.

TONY SEIVL, FORMER ARMY PILOT: The only thing I can say, and I'll say it categorically, it wasn't pilot error and again I have no facts to base that other than knowing Lynn Hummerston and knowing the sort of guy and pilot and instructor he was over those number of years.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's emotional state, according to his wife, continued to deteriorate, especially after he witnessed a Nomad's emergency landing at Oakey a few weeks later.

After leaving the Army and moving north, Michael Paul experienced a complete breakdown three years ago while flying through a storm in a light aircraft.

MADONNA PAUL: He couldn't go to work.

He couldn't function.

He - he - he collapsed, virtually.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Nevertheless, an application last year for a military disability pension was refused.

Although the Veterans' Review Board acknowledged Michael Paul suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it was not convinced the condition, on a balance of probabilities, was Defence caused.

Can you think of any other reason why your husband would have suffered from post-traumatic stress?

MADONNA PAUL: No.

There was no car accidents, there was nothing else.

There was nothing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Madonna Paul convinced her husband to begin lodging an appeal, but Michael Paul secretly withdrew the application without telling his wife.

She knew he was reluctant to go ahead with another hearing, but didn't find out what he was up to until after his suicide.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE, PSYCHIATRIST, ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY: The process of the repeat examination often takes the person to the very thing that they are trying not to think about because they find it very distressing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Professor Sandy McFarlane is a post-traumatic stress expert at Adelaide University.

Although he argues the military's repatriation scheme is in fact fairer to claimants than civil jurisdictions, he says even the best processes can be daunting for patients.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE: Obviously having to speak about it can be extremely difficult, particularly if there are feelings of shame or profound fear associated with those memories.

PETER McCUTCHEON: The Veterans' Review Board says it can't comment on an individual case and, for the Defence Force, the Nomad scandal became ancient history when it grounded the aircraft in 1995.

But for Madonna Paul, left to raise an 18 and 10-year-old on her own, it is still very much a part of her life.

MADONNA PAUL: I will fight on because I want the children to know that we can have some closure on this, and why we lost Michael and why we suffered all those years.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Peter McCutcheon reporting, for some people at least, the curse of the Nomad.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Apparently Mahindra/Gippsland are have issues getting the GA10 certified and the N24 project has not even started.
Given the relative success of the Twin Otter re-launch, I can't see Mahindra getting the N24 back to market anytime this decade.
Can anyone close to Mahindra post a true update of the GA10 and/or N24?

[Squawk7700]

They tell me that a Nomad has just been "dropped off" at the Moorabbin Aviation Museum. I wonder what the history of this particular aircraft is...

[Seagull V]

A part answer to Currawong's request.
ADF personnel killed in various types operated by Army.
Nomad - 3
Porter - 9
Blackhawk - 20 something

[GregP]

172 Nomads were built.


In an ABC '7-30 Report' on 27 Jul 04, it was reported that 19 aircraft had crashed with 56 deaths.


Not a particularly good record of safety.
Utter rubbish!!

[GregP]

Hey GregP,

How about you tell us more about the Tindal sham and the Mt Isa misadventure?

Or perhaps relate to us all the ATC transcript from Glenns loss in Adelaide?


Australian Broadcasting Corporation
TV PROGRAM TRANSCRIPT
LOCATION: 7.30 Report - 27/07/2004: The history of the widow maker revealed (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2004/s1163290.htm)

Broadcast: 27/07/2004
The history of the 'widow maker' revealed

Reporter: Peter McCutcheon

KERRY O'BRIEN: The recent suicide of a former Army aircraft fitter has shed new light on a sorry chapter in Australia's aviation history.

The Australian designed Nomad aircraft gained notoriety in the 1970s because of its poor safety record.

But despite warnings about possible design faults, the Nomad - sometimes referred to as "the widow maker" - wasn't grounded by the military until 1995.

Earlier this year, one of the technicians who worked on the aircraft in the early 90s took his own life.

His widow is now fighting for official recognition that he too was a victim of the Nomad scandal.

Peter McCutcheon reports.

MADONNA PAUL: It's never been about the money, it's about the fact that they damaged all of our family's lives and they never recognised it, they covered it up.

PETER McCUTCHEON: On a deserted beach at Cungulla south of Townsville, Madonna Paul is still coming to terms with her husband's suicide five months ago.

Former Army aircraft fitter Michael Paul suffered from a psychiatric illness that, according to his widow, began more than a decade earlier after a crash of the now notorious Nomad aircraft.

REPORTER: ...lost radio contact and crashed around 10 this morning.

MADONNA PAUL: He had worked on that aircraft that crashed.

He signed that aircraft up and it killed his friends.

He never really got over that day.

He came home from work and he was a different man.

And from years later, when I look back at the incident and from that night, that changed our lives forever.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's personal tragedy is tied up in the final years of the Nomad scandal.

This Australian-designed transport aircraft was once the hope of the local aviation industry, but in two decades of service 19 Nomads crashed, resulting in 56 deaths.

And as Four Corners revealed in 1995, a number of design defects, including stress cracks in the tail plane, were in effect covered up by Defence officials.

PAUL HUGHES, NOMAD DESIGN ENGINEER: Everybody was supposed to be behind the Nomad because it was Australian, because it was designed here and you weren't supposed to knock it.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A qualified boilermaker before joining Army aircraft maintenance, Michael Paul started working on the Nomads at the Oakey base in south-east Queensland in late 1989.

As a fitter, he had no authority to ground an aircraft, but he was required to sign off on the work he completed.

His wife says he raised concerns about the Nomad's design problems, only to be threatened with disciplinary action.

MADONNA PAUL: He just said, "This is just not meant to fly."

The aircraft was dangerous, and he kept saying that.

PETER McCUTCHEON: And he was told by his commanding officer to keep quiet?

MADONNA PAUL: Yes.

"Keep quiet, sign it up or you'll be charged."

PETER McCUTCHEON: But the situation changed from professional frustration to emotional devastation in 1991 when a Nomad Michael Paul had worked on crashed in northern New South Wales, killing four people, including a close friend.

When did you first notice your husband was having difficulties?

MADONNA PAUL: From that night of the accident, after the accident occurred, he came home, he was just numb and he went to the garage and sat in the dark.

PETER McCUTCHEON: A subsequent investigation was unable to determine the cause of the accident, but others suspect the Nomad's alleged design faults.

Tony Seivl is a former senior flying instructor at Oakey who had resigned a year before the accident in protest over the Nomad's safety problems.

He was a friend of Lynn Hummerston, the pilot killed in the 1991 crash.

Although he was unwilling to be interviewed for this report, Tony Seivl stands by his comments to Four Corners nine years ago.

TONY SEIVL, FORMER ARMY PILOT: The only thing I can say, and I'll say it categorically, it wasn't pilot error and again I have no facts to base that other than knowing Lynn Hummerston and knowing the sort of guy and pilot and instructor he was over those number of years.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Michael Paul's emotional state, according to his wife, continued to deteriorate, especially after he witnessed a Nomad's emergency landing at Oakey a few weeks later.

After leaving the Army and moving north, Michael Paul experienced a complete breakdown three years ago while flying through a storm in a light aircraft.

MADONNA PAUL: He couldn't go to work.

He couldn't function.

He - he - he collapsed, virtually.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Nevertheless, an application last year for a military disability pension was refused.

Although the Veterans' Review Board acknowledged Michael Paul suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder, it was not convinced the condition, on a balance of probabilities, was Defence caused.

Can you think of any other reason why your husband would have suffered from post-traumatic stress?

MADONNA PAUL: No.

There was no car accidents, there was nothing else.

There was nothing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Madonna Paul convinced her husband to begin lodging an appeal, but Michael Paul secretly withdrew the application without telling his wife.

She knew he was reluctant to go ahead with another hearing, but didn't find out what he was up to until after his suicide.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE, PSYCHIATRIST, ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY: The process of the repeat examination often takes the person to the very thing that they are trying not to think about because they find it very distressing.

PETER McCUTCHEON: Professor Sandy McFarlane is a post-traumatic stress expert at Adelaide University.

Although he argues the military's repatriation scheme is in fact fairer to claimants than civil jurisdictions, he says even the best processes can be daunting for patients.

PROFESSOR SANDY McFARLANE: Obviously having to speak about it can be extremely difficult, particularly if there are feelings of shame or profound fear associated with those memories.

PETER McCUTCHEON: The Veterans' Review Board says it can't comment on an individual case and, for the Defence Force, the Nomad scandal became ancient history when it grounded the aircraft in 1995.

But for Madonna Paul, left to raise an 18 and 10-year-old on her own, it is still very much a part of her life.

MADONNA PAUL: I will fight on because I want the children to know that we can have some closure on this, and why we lost Michael and why we suffered all those years.

KERRY O'BRIEN: Peter McCutcheon reporting, for some people at least, the curse of the Nomad.
This is an interview with a disgruntled mechanic ... if you take that as good evidence for the aircraft's operational history, perhaps i can interest you in a parcel of shares of the Harbour Bridge ??

[Fris B. Fairing]

They tell me that a Nomad has just been "dropped off" at the Moorabbin Aviation Museum. I wonder what the history of this particular aircraft is...

According to their website, A18-316 donated by Mahindra. (http://www.aarg.com.au/news.html)

[GregP]

GregP,


As you well know, the Nomad was manufactured by a Federal Government owned aerospace manufacturer: GAF which later became ASTA.


So I'm surprised that you, as a government employed investigator, were not privy to the kind of design data Lead Balloon refers to.


Did you ask for it?
When did say i was a "government employed investigator"? I'm not now, never have been and wish never to become any kind if government employee, thank you very much. Moreover, I'm relishing my well earnt retirement from practice.

If you cared to look at the foregoing posts you would see that i told of being 'briefed' (profession clue) to conduct the Inquiry into the crash of Army Nomad A303, not to investigate the design criteria etc. of the aircraft type generally.

Regrettably, because there were no witnesses to the crash of A303 i and the investigation team chased down every report of Nomad 'misbehavior' that we were able to identify in the hope that those alleged 'incidents' might shed some light onto what happened to A303. [They didn't in the least.] In the course of that lengthy process, I was able to 'lead evidence' (another professional clue) that all of the reports of abnormal ops and the film of the stabilator shaking were all of them completely confected.

[Frustratingly, there almost were direct eye witnesses to A303's crash but the two other aircraft in the flight, who were holding over the paddock waiting their turn to use it after A303, turned away from it and A303 a split second before the crash sequence began!]

It was no part of the Board of Inquiry's stipulated task (as per its 'Terms of Reference', which i wrote) to examine and report upon the adequacy or otherwise of its design characteristics -- the Inquiry went long enough thank you without having to spend yet further months on a generalized postmortem of the type! That was simply not our task.

[That year was a particularly harrowing one: only weeks later i conducted an Inquiry into the crash of a Porter at Jasper's Brush (killing and maiming a number of troops) -- less than four years later i was again involved in an Inquiry into the crash of the two Blackhawks west of Townsville .. retirement is a great deal more pleasant!]

But your post raises another regrettable aspect: In theses times of increasing awareness of 'cyber bullying' it is immensely disappointing to see that some people have apparently not yet got the message. What's happened here is that the earlier posts have been ignored, certain individuals have made completely unfounded assumptions and "wild speculation" which has then developed into vulgar slurs and reprehensible bullying.

Lifting of game is called for dear boy ...

[gerry111]

GregP wrote: "Utter rubbish!!"


I thought 170 Nomad aircraft and two prototypes were built? What's your thoughts on that? Numbers please.


I quoted from the ABC '7-30 Report' from 27 Jul 04. That claimed that 19 aircraft had crashed with 56 deaths. So please give me your claimed figures.


I note that the original test pilot; Stuart Pearce was killed in Aug '76 along with the designer; D.Hooper at Avalon. That was in the crash of the prototype of the N24.

[Lead Balloon]

If you cared to look at the foregoing posts you would see that i told of being 'briefed' (profession clue) to conduct the Inquiry into the crash of Army Nomad A303, not to investigate the design criteria etc. of the aircraft type generally.In that event, is seems very strange that a supposedly independent professional, given the very narrow task you say you were given, would make the mistake of making these gross generalisations:Almost everything negative written about the aircraft is utter dross. I ordered multiple tests of the aircraft and i flew one ... it was a seriously good aeroplane and had virtually no peer in its designed operational profile(s).

[bilbert]

The prototype crash was an experimental aircraft. The wrong flutter design criteria was used on the experimental tailplane modifications. I flew every version of the Nomad, N22 (Military) N22B, N22S (Searchmaster) N24 N24A and the N22(F) Floatplane and did a stint at flight test. Was a delight to fly and took it into conditions the military wouldn't dream of. Can't say I was ever concerned at structural or control issues but I still have back issues and an unhealthy disrespect for chip lights. Pity it was forced to be designed to a mil spec, They specified helicopter performance and it just had to have two engines didn't it?

[gerry111]

GregP,


OK. So you are perhaps a retired legal practitioner? That's fine with me. (It doesn't need to be such a big secret, after all.)


I refer to your comments about 'cyber bullying.' I believe that (in all fairness) I haven't bullied you at all. All I've asked of you is for some answers to what I consider to be quite reasonable questions.


Particularly as you had an input to the accident investigation into A18-303.


(And there's no reason for you to be condescending to me. I've treated you with respect.)


Just because we clearly share differences of opinion on the Nomad aircraft, shouldn't be a reason for you to hide behind alleged bullying.


I see that as being a rather weak, defensive cop out.


"Lifting of game is called for dear boy..."


Your arrogance is clearly obvious.

[Dnav31]

I spent many a lonesome yet enjoyable hour in the old gonad (it didnt have enough to warrant 2 nuts). And the old girl is still going.

[Squawk7700]

Is that Nomad from Mahindra the one that was flown over "recently" from NZ?

[draglift]

As an avid enthusiast of the "Flying Doctors" TV series in the 1980's can anyone give any background info. Like


1) Where it was filmed?


2) Was that Nomad MSF chartered and used specifically for all shots or did they use several Nomads?


3)Did they just have a series of external Nomad shots and use them when appropriate or did they film specifically for each episode?


4) Were the inside shots a simulator or was it filmed with a qualified pilot out of camera shot in the right hand seat and Sam Patterson appearing to be masterfully flying it?


5) At the end of the original first episode there was an F27 taking off supposedly with Tom's girlfriend returning to the USA but in fact she had not got on. Did Ansett still use F27's then?


(PS I wish our aircraft mechanics in the UK were as gorgeous as Rebecca Gibney :)

[Fris B. Fairing]

draglift

It's my understanding that the Flying Doctors television series used two Nomads marked as VH-MSF.

c/n 69 the real RFDS aircraft VH-MSF which appeared in the flying sequences. This aircraft was flying until fairly recently but I note that it is no longer on the register.

c/n 01 the Nomad prototype VH-SUP which was painted as VH-MSF and used in ground sequences. This aircraft is now with the South Australian Aviation Museum.

In addition to these aircraft there is a "VH-MSF" mounted at the Broken Hill RFDS Base. This aircraft is believed to be c/n 33 formerly VH-RCC.

The last Ansett passenger F.27 flight was on 26JUL89.

I regret that I can't assist with your other questions other than confirming your assessment of Ms G.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

RFDS Nomad VH-MSF was flown by RFDS's Captain Clyde Thompson and Captain Don Campbell for some of the flying scenes for the TV show.

Some of the ground scenes for the show were shot at Point Cook, in Melbourne.

Lindsay Ingram a CAA FOI at YMMB had a role as an aviation advisor for the production crew.

Ansett NSW provided a daily F27 service to the Hill from Sydney, until Hazelton Airlines took over the service in a B1900, Embraer Bandeirante or Saab 340.

[GregP]

The prototype crash was an experimental aircraft. The wrong flutter design criteria was used on the experimental tailplane modifications. I flew every version of the Nomad, N22 (Military) N22B, N22S (Searchmaster) N24 N24A and the N22(F) Floatplane and did a stint at flight test. Was a delight to fly and took it into conditions the military wouldn't dream of. Can't say I was ever concerned at structural or control issues but I still have back issues and an unhealthy disrespect for chip lights. Pity it was forced to be designed to a mil spec, They specified helicopter performance and it just had to have two engines didn't it?
Finally, someone with extensive direct experience of the type ... in this veteran's view, clearly a good aircraft.

[Lead Balloon]

Hi GregP

Could you confirm that you have no direct or indirect pecuniary or other interest in GippsAero or any entity related to GippsAero?

[Eddie Dean]

GregP, as an ex RAEME fitter I would agree with your assessment of the Nomad and it's history.
Want to say more but this isn't the forum for that.

Lynn and the flight fitter on 303 were comrades of mine at the time, and the thought that Lynn chopped the throttle at take off is absurd.

[Ancient Rotorhead]

Finally, someone with extensive direct experience of the type ... in this veteran's view, clearly a good aircraft.

My thoughts were expressed in post#19 - seven years ago! Obviously before my time ...... :ugh:

[currawong]

Still like to hear how the Nomad compared to the Porter.....

[Eddie Dean]

Currawong, I will defer to others about the aerodynamics and so forth.

As a Engine fitter and then Dual Trades, I preferred the Porter due to it's simplicity and having Pratt and Whitney power.

The Nomad was more complicated, for instance the system for the flap/aileron/spoiler interconnect was a nightmare.

As mentioned earlier the constant chip lights from the early three planetary geared prop reduction gearboxes was a huge issue.

Structural failure was the cause of Crash Donovan's death, I recall no other structural or aerodynamic failures.

Flying into terrain in Kokoda isn't failure of the machine.

[currawong]

Thanks for your insight Eddie.

[chance]

If the N22B was flown in normal civilian operations within its envelope it was okay. If you moved into the military style envelope of combat power down in the weeds, ducking around trees and up creek beds it was scary. Likewise don't try and hang around Vne because the tailplane developed a vibration like driving a vehicle with poor suspension on a dirt road with a corduroy surface.
The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +
It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail. Operate it conservatively and you will be okay - get daring and your may well crash as many B35 drivers did when the tail separated at the upper end of the speed and G force envelope.
It was a very agrarian/industrial piece of kit, underpowered but great little Allison engines that sipped juice. In PNG Ops in the highlands it demanded careful prior prep and planning and a ready supply of undies for both the pilot and the pax. A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.

[gerry111]

"The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +"


That's not my memory. Please supply evidence that you are correct.


Otherwise that is quite a smear against Glenn's airmanship.

[Eddie Dean]

Chance, remind me how combat power was I adjusted. Don't seem to recall the setting on the coordinator for that one.

[Eddie Dean]

Gerry the stabilator broke away as you would know.
The reason it cracked is not certain.
100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.

[djpil]

The many hours of ground running was by GAF not ARDU. Not unrecorded (my recollection) but certainly not considered wrt safe life of the tailplane spar.

[Eddie Dean]

Aircraft Research and Development Unit is your clue.

Unrecorded.hours of tailshake.

[gerry111]

Eddie Dean, The stabilator certainly failed and that was the reason for the aircraft being destroyed and the death of the pilot.


djpil, That is my recollection also.


chance, Please? Your evidence that the ARDU pilot was flying at a speed beyond Vne is?

[chance]

I guess we will never know the final flight manoeuvres by GD over Mallala all those years ago. Maybe not Vne + ; my memory may have be thinking of some other accident and is no reflection on Flt Lt GD.
What we do know is best summed up by Senator David McGibbon's speech to the parliament on the Senate inquiry into the accident which revealed a litany of stuff ups by GAF/ASTA and ARDU Engineering when the aircraft was returned to the RAAF after a couple of years. The Board of Inquiry was also heavily censored as delivering a sub-optimal report.
GD accepted the aircraft in good faith to conduct the test flight. He was let down by a whole lot of people from ASTA through to ARDU and onto the system set up by top brass.
Hope you gerry111understand my point of view.

[gerry111]

chance,

Thank you for your reply. There's no hard feelings from me to you!

I agree that there was a chain of avoidable events that could have prevented this accident.

But I'll always strongly suspect that the failure of the stabilator was not caused by Glenn flying beyond Vne. :)

[john_tullamarine]

I think I must stick my nose in here.

(a) as far as I am aware, the most knowledgeable chap in the PPRuNe sandpit regarding Nomad engineering is djpil - his counsel in that area should be viewed as expert. His identity and background is sufficiently well-known that I don't think he would object to my comment - if he does, I'm sure he will let me know and I will remove it. Certainly, he is far too modest to suggest it himself.

(b) The one that crashed at ARDU was operating from memory at Vne +

How strange.

The TP who got out after the previous landing and watched the subsequent mishap related his version of events to me some years later .. my impression was that Glen was flying a fairly normal sort of circuit ? Vne-plus ? Come on, now .. a bit too much moonshine, methinks ..

If you don't KNOW, then it probably is better to be conservative in your comments - particularly where they can hurt the memory of those who are no longer with us and, hence, unable to defend themselves. I spoke with Glen's brother at length on several occasions in association with the Senate Enquiry - I don't think the family would be impressed by your accusation.

(c) It reminded me of operating the B35 V tail.

If I recall correctly, the earlier tailplane D-section attachment was beefed up in the normal Type ICA manner after the initial mishaps. Not overly different to numerous other Type problems in service.

Not particularly relevant to the Nomad's tail problems.

(d) A Twin Otter was just so much more reassuring.

Perhaps, but you are comparing apples and oranges.

(e) Gerry the stabilator broke away as you would know. The reason it cracked is not certain.

I suggest the reason is quite clear - fatigue damage.

The problem was that the crack was not detected and the damage fixed (which was the intent of the inspection protocol) prior to the mishap. My understanding has always been that a post-GAF inspection deferred iaw protocol proved to be unfortunate on this occasion. As I indicated earlier, the final factory inspection was performed by a colleague for whom I had the highest professional regard. I have no doubt in my mind that the aircraft was returned without any visual evidence of cracking.

(f) 100's of hours of unrecorded ground runs at full noise with ARDU is my presumption.

I don't know whether ARDU did any ground run work but, as djpil has suggested, you probably are confusing the work done by GAF on the aircraft. Unfortunately, it is a bit far back and I cannot remember the available specific data relating to the ground run work - which I looked into as part of the Senate Enquiry activities undertaken by then ASTA.

(g) What we do know ..

I suspect that you don't have much detailed background regarding the Senate Enquiry ? I had no problems with the Senators, per se, but it should be noted that they did have difficulties with some of the more arcane engineering concepts with which they were faced during that period.

[gerry111]

Rather well summed up in my humble opinion, John Tullamarine. :)

[Eddie Dean]

Thanks John

[chance]

JT,
Your comment " a bit too much moonshine, me thinks" is a pejorative comment and should be retracted. I replied to Gerry 111 that I had got it wrong.
Be gracious enough.
I am not sure if any of the recent thread folks have test pilot experience, but if they have then they will understand what we do. I was a TP with the Royal Air Force on lots of types so I know the game and the dangers.
I now understand that this is still raw after some 26 years with lots of you folks and I sympathise with those of you who were personally affected.
Let it be for the memory of GD:).

[john_tullamarine]

I figured you were from a TP background .. my comment was tongue in cheek but quite happy to withdraw it. I think my attempts-at-humour score is running against me .. I probably should give up and just be serious.

I don't know that feelings still run raw to any extent .. however, there was much ducking and weaving at the time, as one would imagine, and disinformation was rife in some quarters. Several of us, who did have inside information, periodically feel moved to correct that which is incorrect.

Glen was just unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. His colleague, on the other hand, never revealed to me whether he went out and purchased a wad of lottery tickets that evening ... probably wouldn't have done him any good .. his allotment of luck for that month had been well and truly spent ..

[chance]

JT,
Touche.

[Al E. Vator]

Anyhow, tweak those problem areas, put two solid engines on it and you would access an ever-growing market with a smart, rugged and reliable utility aircraft at a fraction of the cost of a clean sheet design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUHnk4kF5lY

[Shaggy Dog]

I was part of the crew that flew the first production Nomad around South America etc on a sales/proving flight. It had been flown to the Paris airshow then ferried across the Atlantic down the USA to Caracas where we collected it.
Considering this was the first production Nomad the aircraft performed remarkably well over a near three month period, longer if its run to Paris and down to Caracas is included. Support was minimal and we were a long way from home.
Sadly it was destroyed by a hurricane in Mazatlan Mexico.
Interesting experience.
SD

[shafs]

That you tube video was ATO. looks like it has had a new paint job.

[Ixixly]

FlyHighGetLow, I happened to stop by the factory the otherday and got given a short tour through the factory with no notice which was great of them! Was informed that as of now the GA-18 is on the backburner due to the GA-10 getting ready to be Certified.