ANZ powers plane on vegetable oil....

[DarkSoldier]

The future for air travel? who knows...

BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Vegetable oil tested on NZ flight (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7805499.stm)

[jungle drums]

I find it a wondrous thought that when you look at a contrailing airliner as a distant speck in the sky that that speck may contain enough energy to fly at that height and speed for another 10 or 12 hours.

On that scale our fuel use seems miniscule.

But each day in cruise I look at the ever rising level of brown out from man made pollution.

We can't keep doing this to our home forever.

I am of the belief that the carbon based fuel route is still driving up the dead end of the evolutionary branch for all mammalian species on this planet.

In effect it is returning the energy that has been deposited over millions of years back into the earth cycle and we humans are recreating the primordial atmosphere.

Biofuels are not a solution.

Alternative propulsion is what we truly need, not alternative fuels.

[cwatters]

I recall an article in New Scientist that examined alternative fuel sources for aircraft. The land area required to make veg oil fuel for avaition alone was huge. If I remember correctly the smallest solution needed an area the size of Germany and that used rapidly growing alge in water tanks.

[GobonaStick]

I was told you could power the world airline fleet with an algae pond the size of Belgium which, to me, solves two problems at once :E

[757_Driver]

Alternative propulsion is what we truly need, not alternative fuels.

That may well be the truth - however aircraft, for the moment, have only one viable means of propulsion - with little else on the horizon, whereas road transport and electricity generation both have carbon free alternatives, ready, proven and waiting. So why not concentrate the effort where it will yield the most benefit - rather than banging on about aviation again? Because this is a political, not a scientific argument - thats why.
Unfortunately as long as the environmental argument is hijacked by the dogmatic 'anti' brigade, as it is at the moment then no real progress will ever be made.
Biofuels are a good example of this. In their effort to never be proved wrong 'environmentalists' have pushed a solution that actually increases carbon output as well as pushes staple food prices out of the reach of most of the 3rd world population.
I've still yet to see any reall compelling scientific evidence that says we can alter climate change by reducing carbon output, let alone any evidence that is so compelling that its worth starving millions of people to death over.

[Birdy767]

Yeeeeeeeeee Great!!!!! Please to see I m not the only one to be concerned about the Oil problem and manipulation!

It s time to re-act guys!

[Birdy767]

Here is one of my old post (posted yesterday but strangely blanked):

Sure, the Middle East own Alllll the fuel, then it s time for people to wake up and find a way to be less dependent.

I don't see the point to invest billions in new aircrafts if you can't fill in the tanks because your competitor plays with the barrel...

[The Trappist]

Gobonastick

Please give us a chance to move out all beer production first! :ok:

[Duck Rogers]

Here is one of my old post (posted yesterday but strangely blanked):

You can't have posted in this thread yesterday as it was only started this morning. In fact you posted in another thread.

http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/356228-etihad-a340-grounded-passengers-stranded-sydney-international-airport.html


Big bad mods, eh?

[GlueBall]

Air New Zealand said it was the first time a second-generation biofuel had been used to partly power a passenger plane. Air New Zealand Chief Executive Rob Fyfe said the completion of Tuesday's flight was "a milestone for the airline and commercial aviation".


To be sure, it's good public relations mileage, a la Sir Richard Branson style. But it's impractical reality to use productive farm land to fill up petrol tanks. And it's stupefying how a senior airline executive would make such simple minded proclamations. :ooh:

[ChristiaanJ]

Maybe the time has come to start boycotting Air NZ for stealing food from the mouths of babes and throwing it to the wind, litterally


And if a CEO can make such a dumb statement, it makes you wonder how the rest of the firm is being run...

CJ

[haughtney1]

But it's impractical reality to use productive farm land to fill up petrol tanks.

Ignorant piffel, Jatropa doesn't need to be grown on "productive" farmland..unlike palm oil, and the various other soya based crops.

Algae, Jatropa, and to some extent perhaps some form of wild grass (which don't, won't and will never compete with food production) may well be the next leap in alternative aviation fuels. I can't help thinking though that given aviation produces 2% of the worlds emissions...the "anti" progress lobby certainly are targetting the lowest hanging fruit of all.

[henry crun]

GlueBall & ChristiaanJ: Rubbish ! your talk of productive farm land and stealing food from babies displays your ignorance of the origin of the fuel and where the crop can be grown.

[james ozzie]

Well said jungle drums.

The discussion and debate here and in other media serves to illustrate how people tend to get focussed on detail and ignore the big picture. That big picture is just so big that it cannot be dealt with by a few indivuduals or enterprises - it requires a generational change in mindset, attitude and outlook. Technically ignorant people seem to take the view: "Lets just hang on a while and some little boffin in a white coat will invent some gadget and then we can all go back to our previous profligate lifestyles" as they do not iunderstand the issues involved.

[Fark'n'ell]

Totally agree with you Haughty. By the way, how is the phlatulence.

[Murky]

AN Air NZ spokesman was ouoted as saying that it would need around 600000 acres to supply enough fuel for the domestic fleet. How many algae ponds I have no idea. I wonder as to how much power is needed to refine such and at what carbon cost.

[GlueBall]

Jatropa Curcas isn't going to grow on water nor on rocks and glaciers of the New Zealand Southern Alps. You need land the size of countries to produce meaningful quantities because it takes at least five (5) tons of jatropha oil seeds to produce just two (2) tons of biodiesel. . . . And in a B74 you can blow two tons of fuel just taxiing and waiting in line for take off. Go figure. Not an argument, just a statement of fact, sir.

[henry crun]

Jatropha does NOT need productive farm land.

Not an argument, just a statement of fact, sir.

[haughtney1]

james ozzie, while your sentiment is admirable..and I'm sure plenty of fluffy thinkers would dip their cups of nettle tea in agreement, your observations are demonstrably wrong as it has been precisely thanks to the little men in white coats who have offered most important advances in technology over the last 100 years or so..then throw in a few wars for good measure..and you have the bulk of human kinds advancement.

GlueBall, either you cant read, or cant be bothered to do any research......
Presently there exists enough swampland in the southern US i.e(Florida, the missi delta, plus various parts of Alabama & Louisiana) to produce enough jet fuel from the production of naturally occurring algae..without ever even considering food producing land! Moreover, a by product of this production may well be stock-feed in vast quantities which will free up even more pastoral land currently dedicated to producing stock-feed.
The bigger question with algae is whether the technology is mature and cost effective enough to impliment.....and for that, we need to rely upon a few fellows with beards and white coats.
As for Jatropa, it can grow on very very arid land...it is in some-ways very similar to the olive in the sense of the environment it thrives in, albeit that it is far more hardy and will therefore have no need to compete with olive oil as a cash crop (Olive oil is at around $2000 per barrel!)
So Glueball, Jatropa could be produced in the vast tracks of western and sub saharan Africa, the interior of Oz, various parts of Central Asia plus half a hundred other non-producing areas too boot.
Did I mention it could also help increase rainfall in arid areas? and therefore help improve food production on the periphery?

[18-Wheeler]

Does it need land at all?
With some filtering why not grow it on cheap rafts on the ocean.

[james ozzie]

Haughtney - I am not denying the central role of new technologies (obviously these are critical) but my point is that technology alone will not fix everything. As energy consumers, we will need to modify our own attitudes and practices. So what is the answer? There is no single answer - it is like winning a world war; it needs the combined resources of everyone over a long and difficult period. The detail of jet fuel substitutes is but one of many highly complex technical aspects. The overall reduction of our fossil fuel addiction is a huge challenge. The good news is that at least these things are being seriously discussed in the mainsteam; unthinkable a few years ago. It is a start. Oh, and no need to make caustic remarks to someone just because their opinion differs from yours!

[haughtney1]

James, I agree with you to a certain extent, but I have to reiterate that aviation emissions are a mere drop in the ocean when you compare them to the power generation industry, motor vehicles, domestic housing and international shipping.
Of that group of four, the two most polluting (and by pollution I refer to air quality and inefficiency NOT CO2) are certainly motor vehicles and power generation. These two industries already have at their disposal technologies that could effectively halve their environmental impact, however for many, it is far easier to point the finger at perceived luxuries aka "air travel" than it is to address the issues surrounding options such as nuclear power generation (take a look at how the French do it), and the emerging hydrogen fuel cell vehicles.
Technology, rather than banging on about "changing our ways:ugh: " is the way forward.

[BelArgUSA]

How about Extra Virgin Olive Oil...?
More expensive...?
Nice to know for catering salads, just drip the tanks...
Could possibly consider production of by-products such as mayonnaise...?
Aeronautical engineering and culinary arts mix quite well.