ANZ powers plane on vegetable oil....
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ANZ powers plane on vegetable oil....
The future for air travel? who knows...
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Vegetable oil tested on NZ flight
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Vegetable oil tested on NZ flight
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Carbon based fuels
I find it a wondrous thought that when you look at a contrailing airliner as a distant speck in the sky that that speck may contain enough energy to fly at that height and speed for another 10 or 12 hours.
On that scale our fuel use seems miniscule.
But each day in cruise I look at the ever rising level of brown out from man made pollution.
We can't keep doing this to our home forever.
I am of the belief that the carbon based fuel route is still driving up the dead end of the evolutionary branch for all mammalian species on this planet.
In effect it is returning the energy that has been deposited over millions of years back into the earth cycle and we humans are recreating the primordial atmosphere.
Biofuels are not a solution.
Alternative propulsion is what we truly need, not alternative fuels.
On that scale our fuel use seems miniscule.
But each day in cruise I look at the ever rising level of brown out from man made pollution.
We can't keep doing this to our home forever.
I am of the belief that the carbon based fuel route is still driving up the dead end of the evolutionary branch for all mammalian species on this planet.
In effect it is returning the energy that has been deposited over millions of years back into the earth cycle and we humans are recreating the primordial atmosphere.
Biofuels are not a solution.
Alternative propulsion is what we truly need, not alternative fuels.
Last edited by jungle drums; 31st Dec 2008 at 08:55.
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I recall an article in New Scientist that examined alternative fuel sources for aircraft. The land area required to make veg oil fuel for avaition alone was huge. If I remember correctly the smallest solution needed an area the size of Germany and that used rapidly growing alge in water tanks.
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Alternative propulsion is what we truly need, not alternative fuels.
That may well be the truth - however aircraft, for the moment, have only one viable means of propulsion - with little else on the horizon, whereas road transport and electricity generation both have carbon free alternatives, ready, proven and waiting. So why not concentrate the effort where it will yield the most benefit - rather than banging on about aviation again? Because this is a political, not a scientific argument - thats why.
Unfortunately as long as the environmental argument is hijacked by the dogmatic 'anti' brigade, as it is at the moment then no real progress will ever be made.
Biofuels are a good example of this. In their effort to never be proved wrong 'environmentalists' have pushed a solution that actually increases carbon output as well as pushes staple food prices out of the reach of most of the 3rd world population.
I've still yet to see any reall compelling scientific evidence that says we can alter climate change by reducing carbon output, let alone any evidence that is so compelling that its worth starving millions of people to death over.
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Here is one of my old post (posted yesterday but strangely blanked):
Sure, the Middle East own Alllll the fuel, then it s time for people to wake up and find a way to be less dependent.
I don't see the point to invest billions in new aircrafts if you can't fill in the tanks because your competitor plays with the barrel...
Sure, the Middle East own Alllll the fuel, then it s time for people to wake up and find a way to be less dependent.
I don't see the point to invest billions in new aircrafts if you can't fill in the tanks because your competitor plays with the barrel...
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Originally Posted by Birdy767
Here is one of my old post (posted yesterday but strangely blanked):
http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf...l-airport.html
Big bad mods, eh?
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Taking food right out of your mouth
Air New Zealand said it was the first time a second-generation biofuel had been used to partly power a passenger plane. Air New Zealand Chief Executive Rob Fyfe said the completion of Tuesday's flight was "a milestone for the airline and commercial aviation".
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Maybe the time has come to start boycotting Air NZ for stealing food from the mouths of babes and throwing it to the wind, litterally
And if a CEO can make such a dumb statement, it makes you wonder how the rest of the firm is being run...
CJ
And if a CEO can make such a dumb statement, it makes you wonder how the rest of the firm is being run...
CJ
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But it's impractical reality to use productive farm land to fill up petrol tanks.
Algae, Jatropa, and to some extent perhaps some form of wild grass (which don't, won't and will never compete with food production) may well be the next leap in alternative aviation fuels. I can't help thinking though that given aviation produces 2% of the worlds emissions...the "anti" progress lobby certainly are targetting the lowest hanging fruit of all.
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GlueBall & ChristiaanJ: Rubbish ! your talk of productive farm land and stealing food from babies displays your ignorance of the origin of the fuel and where the crop can be grown.
Well said jungle drums.
The discussion and debate here and in other media serves to illustrate how people tend to get focussed on detail and ignore the big picture. That big picture is just so big that it cannot be dealt with by a few indivuduals or enterprises - it requires a generational change in mindset, attitude and outlook. Technically ignorant people seem to take the view: "Lets just hang on a while and some little boffin in a white coat will invent some gadget and then we can all go back to our previous profligate lifestyles" as they do not iunderstand the issues involved.
The discussion and debate here and in other media serves to illustrate how people tend to get focussed on detail and ignore the big picture. That big picture is just so big that it cannot be dealt with by a few indivuduals or enterprises - it requires a generational change in mindset, attitude and outlook. Technically ignorant people seem to take the view: "Lets just hang on a while and some little boffin in a white coat will invent some gadget and then we can all go back to our previous profligate lifestyles" as they do not iunderstand the issues involved.
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AN Air NZ spokesman was ouoted as saying that it would need around 600000 acres to supply enough fuel for the domestic fleet. How many algae ponds I have no idea. I wonder as to how much power is needed to refine such and at what carbon cost.
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Jatropa Curcas isn't going to grow on water nor on rocks and glaciers of the New Zealand Southern Alps. You need land the size of countries to produce meaningful quantities because it takes at least five (5) tons of jatropha oil seeds to produce just two (2) tons of biodiesel. . . . And in a B74 you can blow two tons of fuel just taxiing and waiting in line for take off. Go figure. Not an argument, just a statement of fact, sir.
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james ozzie, while your sentiment is admirable..and I'm sure plenty of fluffy thinkers would dip their cups of nettle tea in agreement, your observations are demonstrably wrong as it has been precisely thanks to the little men in white coats who have offered most important advances in technology over the last 100 years or so..then throw in a few wars for good measure..and you have the bulk of human kinds advancement.
GlueBall, either you cant read, or cant be bothered to do any research......
Presently there exists enough swampland in the southern US i.e(Florida, the missi delta, plus various parts of Alabama & Louisiana) to produce enough jet fuel from the production of naturally occurring algae..without ever even considering food producing land! Moreover, a by product of this production may well be stock-feed in vast quantities which will free up even more pastoral land currently dedicated to producing stock-feed.
The bigger question with algae is whether the technology is mature and cost effective enough to impliment.....and for that, we need to rely upon a few fellows with beards and white coats.
As for Jatropa, it can grow on very very arid land...it is in some-ways very similar to the olive in the sense of the environment it thrives in, albeit that it is far more hardy and will therefore have no need to compete with olive oil as a cash crop (Olive oil is at around $2000 per barrel!)
So Glueball, Jatropa could be produced in the vast tracks of western and sub saharan Africa, the interior of Oz, various parts of Central Asia plus half a hundred other non-producing areas too boot.
Did I mention it could also help increase rainfall in arid areas? and therefore help improve food production on the periphery?
GlueBall, either you cant read, or cant be bothered to do any research......
Presently there exists enough swampland in the southern US i.e(Florida, the missi delta, plus various parts of Alabama & Louisiana) to produce enough jet fuel from the production of naturally occurring algae..without ever even considering food producing land! Moreover, a by product of this production may well be stock-feed in vast quantities which will free up even more pastoral land currently dedicated to producing stock-feed.
The bigger question with algae is whether the technology is mature and cost effective enough to impliment.....and for that, we need to rely upon a few fellows with beards and white coats.
As for Jatropa, it can grow on very very arid land...it is in some-ways very similar to the olive in the sense of the environment it thrives in, albeit that it is far more hardy and will therefore have no need to compete with olive oil as a cash crop (Olive oil is at around $2000 per barrel!)
So Glueball, Jatropa could be produced in the vast tracks of western and sub saharan Africa, the interior of Oz, various parts of Central Asia plus half a hundred other non-producing areas too boot.
Did I mention it could also help increase rainfall in arid areas? and therefore help improve food production on the periphery?