NATS - ATCO and the PPL

[flash8]

I am sorry if this has been covered before (I am sure it has) but can somebody enlighten me when the PPL was an integrated part of the ATCO training, and why it was removed? I am sure it used to be mandatory or am I wrong here?

I would have thought the PPL would have been a really useful knowledge base to have in so many ways, and also allow the ATCO to continue to pursue interests in that direction if he/she wished and this could only be beneficial to everybody concerned.

Many thanks.

Flash.

[Gonzo]

Which country/ANSP are you referring to?

[PeltonLevel]

Gonzo
Which country/ANSP are you referring to?Back when you were in nappies, it applied to yours!

[ZOOKER]

I believe it was phased-out, (in the UK), in the 1980s, due to monetary reasons. (See the Thatcher Government for details).
Allegedly replaced by some form of 'Outward Bound Course'.
-Students being required to build rafts, rather than fly aeroplanes.
Team-building horsesh1t. :}

[bottom rung]

I was on Course 72..... we got 15 hours training which could be used towards a PPL. As far as I know the last course to get PPLs was 68 or 69... that would have been around 1988 or early 1989.
Probably wrong, memories on the way out due port and old age.

[Gonzo]

Pelton, I'm well aware of that, it just wasn't clear that the original poster was specifically referring to NATS ATCO training.

[The Fat Controller]

NATS 62 course (April 1986) only got 15 hours flying along with that lovely team-building course at the very beginning.

A couple of previous courses had the full outward-bound nonsense, so I think the last PPLs must have been around 1984, somebody will come up with the answer soon I am sure.

[anotherthing]

Having flown in a previous career and now working at a centre as opposed to an approach unit, although I did my 15 hours flight fam, I honestly don't think the 15 hours, or even PPL would be of that much benefit to someone who had never flown before (though it was a good 2 weeks away from college).

Flying a PA28 or C150 from a sleepy airfield is a world away from flying a modern glass cockpit aircraft from a busy commercial airport.

Having said that, at the very few airports that NATS provides a service where light aircraft circuits still happen, I think some sort of famil would be beneficial.

For larger airports and area units, more fam flights would, IMHO, be far more beneficial.

As for the 'team building' week - the company that NATS used to employ was staffed mainly by ex mil bods. The 'team building' exercises where taken straight from the military and were actually more to do with leadership than team building...the real team building happened in the bar of an evening... Easy money for the company that supplied their services, wasted money for NATS.

[Gonzo]

the real team building happened in the bar of an eveningOr on the pool table in the early hours of the morning, depending on which course you were on......... :suspect:

[Hyperborean]

Anotherthing, in the days when UK ATCO Cadets got a full PPL course they also got a brief introduction to instrument flying, frasca simulator plus 2 shared cross country trips. On the cross country trips groups of 3 of us each flew one leg with an instrument approach at the end of it, I had the pleasure of a radar approach at Brum and an ILS at Ostend. We also spent time at BEA on the ROT and the Trident simulator plus fam flights. So we did get a small insight into life at the piloting sharp end.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Also during the Cadetship, we received local Club membership and the 5 hours for annual currency, along with any required Club CFI acceptance and Type conversion time. Halcyon days indeed.

[anotherthing]

Hyperborean and GBZ

Point taken but I still honestly believe that more fam flights are what is needed today and not bashing circuits.

Regardless of my previous career, the 15 hours wasn't really worth the time - apart from the fact that I was able to teach my 'flying instructor' how to navigate properly!!

Bashing the circuit etc is a great idea for ATCOs at airfields where circuits take place - they can easily equate their trepidation of going solo etc to that of any pilots at the 'fields local flying club and this would hopefully help them provide a better service.

I agree that more cross training/experience should happen, but that nowadays it should take the form of pilots visiting us and vice versa - done on company time.

NATS are supposed to be 'In Tune With Our Customers' as per the destinations... what better way to do so than to recognise that with the dilution of the course at the college, more effort should be made to allow us, especially those at the beginning of their career, to sit with the customers as they do their jobs.

Similarly, slight thread creep, there should be much more famil visits between airports and centres, again because the college course has been so diluted.

We want to be the best in the business - we can't do that is half the ATCOs don't appreciate the problems the other half have on a day to day basis.

Of course, getting released to do this on company time, and getting reimbursed for mileage is not entertained - very shortsighted.

[DC10RealMan]

I would have thought that flying training to PPL standard is of much more relevance to the personnel who are dedicated FISOs doing London and Scottish Information at the ATC centres.

[Gingerbread Man]

As a trainee with a PPL, i'm not sure it has helped me as much as I thought it would. Training to be an ATCO wll probably improve my flying more than I imagined possible, however.

The reason I don't think it was of much use (from an ATCO training point of view) is that i managed to obtain a PPL without ever talking to a ATC tower (always A/G or the odd FISO), without ever filing a flight plan, without receiving anything more than a FIS. So when I started training I had no cockpit experience of GMC, or even Air Control really. The only CAS I had ever been in was Solent CTA, and that was a rarity.

I've never flown in bad weather (unless you count rain showers) either. The PPL meant that I was already comfortable with broadcasting my voice, and with a lot of the basic phraseology, but I don't think that was a big problem for others anyway.

I enjoy flying immensely, don't get me wrong. I'm sure that flying training specifically targeted at ATCO familiarisation would be beneficial, I just don't think the training I did put me in any better position than my peers.

Ginger ;)

[flash8]

Sorry, yes I was refering to the UK... and many thanks for the replies. I knew even though my memory is rusty that the PPL used to be part of the training.

I agree however with the poster that time in a (clockwork) 152 is far from the reality of todays glass cockpits. As another poster points out, time was had on a Trident Sim in addition.

Perhaps today, the 15 hours (to Solo) coupled with a few hours on a FTD (or FFS) would be a great core intro. Cost wouldn't be prohibitive either.

Not surprised Thatcher phased out the PPL though...

Flash.

[Talla Radar]

The last CAA (now NATS) course to get the full PPL was 57 ATCO Cadet course (in late 1983). Number 58 course (commenced in May 1984) was the first of the "new style" cadetships, which comprised training in Aerodrome, Approach, Approach Radar, Area and Area Radar ratings. The training also included an Outward Bound course and 15 hours flying in lieu of the PPL.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Apt as I am to let my mind wander...... a single individual must have had the clever(?) idea of stopping PPL training for ATCOs. I wonder who that was and what benefit he saw in such an idea?

[anotherthing]

Gingerbread man

The idea of giving ATCOs some flight time wasn't to do so much with helping them through ATCO training but more to do with giving them an appreciation of what pilots do.

As stated though, I think in todays environment the money could and should be spent more efficiently with flight deck famils and visits to units that you interact with.

[LH2]

FWIW, in France it's still the case the ATCOs receive (if they so choose, I believe) a Brevet de Base as part of their training. Coincidentally or not, an awful number of them are active PPLs.

[Spitoon]

Apt as I am to let my mind wander...... a single individual must have had the clever(?) idea of stopping PPL training for ATCOs. I wonder who that was and what benefit he saw in such an idea?HD, whilst I can't give you a name, I'd lay money it was an accountant.

[Heading 365]

Pretty sure it was the account boys that put the mockers on the full PPL, and very nice it was to whilst it existed, I had a PPL beforehand and got 35 hours free flying, gained my IMC and night ratings. The BEA course also proved useful as the instructor was able to sign of the hours towards my IMC, still looks a bit incongrous to have HS21 in the log book but it counted!!

I think the current Kaizen (or going over old ground)event is looking at all things to do with training and one thing is to get the students onto the flight deck. It has been suggested to place it when they are at their units and at least have a bit better understanding and can ask more relevant questions. Problem is that once on a watch the managers say you are not having a fam flight on my budget. So it all goes back to money, which can only get worse now.:(

H365

[Mr_Grubby]

I think Harry Cherry and George Rankin were the top dogs at HQ in charge of training.

They must have had a say in things.

C.

[throw a dyce]

I wonder how necessary all the pieces of cardboard that have appeared over the last few years would be,if the PPL was still on the ATCO training.Telling us safety this,and remember to do that,and don't do the other.The full PPL teaches most of the commom sense that appears on these pieces of paper.Doing a night rating and IMC only adds to this.
I kept my PPL current for many years after the cadetship,and quite often could translate what I was saying as an ATCO,to how a pilot might understand it.
The basics of flying a Cessna and 747 are the same.In fact some light aircraft of the taildragger variety are just as tricky as jets.I think ATCOs need to appreciate all forms of aviation,and not just the jetliners.Some places still have to talk to everything.