Whats with BCN approach??

[The Sandman]

Twice lately, and tonight especially I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller. Tonight, 150 deg "intercept" to 02 final, off-scale indications, 1000' ft high, told cleared approach. What the...???
Talk about DIY approaches. Any other similar recently?

[silverhawk]

How about using the official channels if you have an issue and have it resolved like a professional rather than on a public chat site?

[clearfortheoption]

How do you know she was young?

[hetfield]

The "qualities" of BCN ATC had been discussed at pprune many times. Nevertheless obviously still subject for possible improvement...

[BOAC]

Indeed - vectoring for (the old) ?07? had been a problem (and 'illegal') for years and reported many times.

"I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller." - me too, but best not speak about it.:)

[kleerdam]

Hi guys, once it don't endanger the operation it is quite normal to me, we have to work with each other and the controller cannot do everything to fill my request, I think always there is a reason for what ever the case might be, if you are not happy about the situation after landing just give them a call by phone and you will get a explanation and we all will be happy to learn more of what to expect during certain operations.

Let's work together guys.

[tracker999]

Flying there almost everyday, never have a problem!
Sometimes I wonder if the pb is not about some ...pilots!:bored:

[Tight Seat]

Would be nice not to have a 'local' airline push in all the time. Start the app as number 1 only to find your number 2 to the s@@@air by the time you get to 5 miles.

[Enos]

I don't like to bash controllers, The Spanish are pretty good, and compared to other parts of the world, very good.

But BCN at night, can be interesting, I agree with the Sand Man, I once asked if we were still under radar control, the vectoring we were given could only be flow at 152 speeds or left on a vectors to no where then instructed to self position and this was on more than one occasion, better to fly the full procedure at night if unsure.

PPRUNE is good for info, if someone reads here that ATC can be unusual at a certain time or place, it may save a go around or worse.

[dahawg123]

The Spanish are pretty good, and compared to other parts of the world, very good

Is this a joke??? Compared to where? The moon?

It'd be okay if they didn't have the mic behind 3 yards of polystyrene... and they spoke English...and didn't give you taxi instructions at 100kts on the rollout...or not inform you the ILS isn't working for the 364th day this year....or having to dodge a S***air/I***a cutting in front of me on 'short' (150ft) finals....the list goes on.

[The Sandman]

Silverhawk :rolleyes: get a life - this IS a professional pilots network, and it's meant for sharing information in the manner and to the ends suggested by your rather more pragmatic fellow aviator Enos.

[TheGorrilla]

pillot to atco "you're the second best atc unit in the world"... Atco to pilot "thanks!! just out of interest who is the best?"... Pilot "everyone else!".

I recon the basic problem is all centered around the fact that alot of atcos go through their training without doing any flying. let alone fly a jet. So how are they supposed to appreciate the requirements and needs of a jet on a non-standard approach on a day with a funny wind/temp inversion etc.....

On the whole the guys do a good job. I think the more info/js rides etc we can give them the better the service will be.

[captplaystation]

The very valuable tool of giving them jump seat rides went out the window with all the post 9/11 security tosh, certainly in all the carriers I am aware of.
A great shame for our common learning experience. :ugh:

[Hotel Tango]

Captplaystation, you've hit the nail on the head. People will say that fam flights are still possible - and that is true (though very limited and often a pain to organise), but the days of an ATCO simply being invited up front when flying as an ID or regular pax are truly over. We have a new generation of young ATCOs who are great people but have little understanding of aviation in general and what goes on on the FD in particular. I spent 90% of my pax flying days on the FD prior to 911. Only once since!

[misd-agin]

Intereresting observation from an ATC controller while doing an observation trip -

"How do you guys keep track of when ATC calls you?"

From his perspective at work every conversation is either started by him or directed at him. He didn't have to ignore 95% of all the transmissions, so it was very enlightening for him to see it from a pilot's perspective.

And it's always "XXX Center, etc". It's not XX 123 this morning, XX 223 next, followed by XX 2223, etc, etc, while XX 123, 223, and 2223 are on the same frequency.

Nothing like flying into a hub on XX 422 with XX 1422 behind you, and then departing the hub on flight 1422 right behind XX 422.:eek: "Uh, was that for us?"

Two hardest parts of the job - 1. sleep cycle 2. "who are we today?"

[Mister Geezer]

In the UK at least it is a myth that ATC staff are not welcome on the jump seat any more. I can't speak for every operator but the majority still allow pre arranged fam flights. However they are seldom done which is sad. :(

[Gary Lager]

captplaystation - I am under the impression that we work for the same airline. Our (my) airline allows jumpseat flights for ATCOs and they couldn't be simpler to arrange - just an e-mail from the base captain to 'head office'. I have arranged and flown many in recent months - try it!

[Romeo India Xray]

Not been to BCN in recent years, but have had similar problems (and much worse) a bit closer to home. What is wrong with asking for more track miles, stating unable to comply or flying the procedure from the outset (depending on AD in question)? A 120 intercept is hardly conducive to a stablisied APP if you throw in a few other variables (such as the S@@@air cut in necessitating a slowdown and go down at GS intercept). Sure if you ask for any these then you are liable to be up there longer than you planned, but if this is going to be a problem, eg resulting in a nice "chat" with your base captain, then perhaps you are flying for the wrong carrier. The decission to refuse a 120 intercept should primerily be the premise of the PF (and the Captain if (s)he deems it to be unwise), company politics or local landing priority list should not enter into it.

Now off at a tangent - how many of us guys have been up to the the tower at their local base, or been in the Approach/ACC room? I thought it would meet resistance but as soon as I posed the question I was welcomed in by the ATCOs with open arms - a most enlightening afternoon out should you have the oportunity at your base.

As for taking ATCOs on the JS, if your OM allows it then why the hell not invite as many as possible. Contrary to popular rumour, we are all together in the same boat. :ok:

RIX

[AMEandPPL]

Very slightly off-topic, maybe, in which case I apologise . . . . . . . but

Our (my) airline allows jumpseat flights for ATCOs and they couldn't be simpler to arrange

Just wondering if the same or similar could apply to AME's ? We are, after all, occupational physicians, and should be able to observe our "patients" in their usual place of work !

Prior to 9/11 used to get lots and lots of jump seat trips, but nowadays the only front view I get is from the left seat of my C172 !

[Romeo India Xray]

Just wondering if the same or similar could apply to AME's ? We are, after all, occupational physicians, and should be able to observe our "patients" in their usual place of work !


Anything is possible, just not sure it would be possible in the UK due to the way things are there at the moment. If jump seats are permitted for anyone other than operational flight crew then it should say so in the OM. If it is not there (or the OM specifically precludes it) then it could only be by permission of the NAA. In any case, I doubt AMEs being specifically listed in an OM as permitted FD visitors. However ......

If you don't mind doing some voluntary work, you might get the chance to observe some crews as part of an airline LOSA programme. Find out who is running a LOSA and then volunteer your services as an observer of the LOSA aspects relating to pilot performance and physiology. I am sure that if you can find the carrier and are willing to give your time freely then you will eventually get to do some observations.

RIX

p.s. check out ICAO doc 9803 to learn more about the LOSA programme.

[captplaystation]

Gary Lager,
reading your "previous" (guv ) it sounds like you are flying Orange Scarebuses.
I am more luddite in blue & yellow. They have no mechanism to facilitate this that I know of, probably would if the IAA would allow ( & then charge them the airport/wheelchair/etc etc taxes :rolleyes: )

[Pedro]

I fly into BCN quite a lot and I have found it is an airport that does need a lot of situational awareness with aircraft flowing in from the north-east and south-west to the 25 approach; in other words coming from opposite directions; interweaving, some offered early intercepts as the situation evolves. So it is not a place to just sit back and let the controller do all the work! We do have TCAS; and surely can make a good stab at anticipating what will come next?

[Gary Lager]

Ah sorry cps, unlike you I was too lazy to check facts. Shame that FR don't operate such a system - it doesn't cost anything & I know I've seen FR pilots at training events at LTCC so there must be some people in the company with the the right idea.

Anyway, my feelings on the thread topic - who's flying the aircraft? BCN (or any other) ATC or the crew? If you don't like something, don't accept it, file an ASR and follow it up. I operate there frequently and whilst certain protocols and assumptions are not the same as other parts of Europe, I take that into account and operate with an appropriate level of caution. I don't think that PPRuNe is the any way to get anything changed.

[captplaystation]

Don't think BCN is so different to anywhere else (mind you I normally go there @midnight coz home has gone out of limits, used to go a lot though in a previous "life" ). If you want to see really ridiculously high vectoring try Ciampino (via Ostia) or the less well known (to non RYR ) NRN where you are kept high due to DUS departures or indeed Forli ,Altenburg and countless others. Every time we defy the laws of physics and get the devil down with 2/ 3rds (or sometimes half) the normal track miles ATC can see what aces we are so don't think twice about doing it again. At somewhere like LHR or STN they would "usually" ask before spinning you a wide ball. In BCN & it's ilk I am not entirely sure they even notice they are setting you up, and if they do, they probably expect you to object if you are unhappy. A little bit "Manana" perhaps on their part, but at least it saves you dying of boredom ;)

To answer the original post " you have to excuse her, she comes from Barcelona" insert John Cleese accent.

[TheGorrilla]

If you don't like something, don't accept it, file an ASR and follow it up.

I'd go one further than that and say "if you don't like something, refuse to do it". Sometimes it's hard to say NO but that's what we get paid for.

[Romeo India Xray]

I'd go one further than that and say "if you don't like something, refuse to do it".

Nail, head and hit

However ...

Have you ever flown for any airlines that are run by accountants? Have you ever faced the prospect of a little discrimination (sorry, I mean landing priority delays) based on the nationality of your carrier? The prospect of a Eurocontrol slot being lost and the next God knows how long being stuck on the ground. How about not getting back in time to see your 5 year old son on his birthday before he goes to bed. They are all things that should not weigh on your mind, but for most of us they will to a greater or lesser extent.

As long as these things are allowed to happen then there will continue to be destablised approaches caused by the likes of 120 degree intercepts. Perhaps we should have a new thread entitled "All the problems with our airline, ATC, routes etc. that detrimentaly impair my ability to do my job as well as I would like to.

Ah well - rant over, back to work in 4 hours :ok:

RIX

[gibas]

Hi guys!

I'm flying for the last 10 years in one of the two Spanish carriers that (according to some of you) seems to get priority at BCN. I am not going to defend any lobby position here. I fly all around western Europe and I'll try to be as objective as I can.
As a Spaniard and after 15 years of domestic flying, I have the right to say

Spanish ATC........ just sucks. :}

We should not compare it to the worst ATC's, but rather to the best ones.
UK is an example of how to do it. You just notice that they have airmanship.
In Spain they don't even know what that is, but that's not the problem..... the thing is they don't give a damm:bored: about speaking an understandable English or improving their quality service.
They are rather concerned about golf, snowboard, vacation destinations and sport cars.

Believe me, I've taken many ATCO's that prefer to travel in the cabin (business class drinking whiskey) than in the CKP.

Do you have any idea of how much a Spanish ATCO with 10 years of service (rather than experience) earns?
Well, I know some of them that finish the year with around 200K€ after taxes.

Do (there are always exceptions, of course) they deserve that money????
The answer is straight forward!!!

European amazing salaries for african services?!!:=

Gibas.

[hetfield]

@Gibas

Thx for your straight fwd reply but now watch out for Guardia Civil or similar forces.
:ouch:

[HEisLEGEND]

gibas run 4 your life!!all the king forces are going after you now!:}

[gblen]

was there last night-awful! shocking english and i could barely understand clearances. runway change on the taxi out and they couldnt comprehend why we needed 2 minutes at the hold short before we could depart. dont get me started about the dispatcher-15early in.finish the day 30mins late.....

always seem to have problems in spain!last trip was a sporting R.A to keep things consistent

[John Boeman]

Some things don't change much.

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/96618-spanish-atc.html

[VShadow]

Hi guys,
well i am i spain now for 2 years flying for a spanish airline. at the begining I had a few unstabilized approaches due to the fact that ATC was "different" wich was a real pain in the Butt.
unexpected short cuts, intercept from above, reduce sppe, increase speed, etc etc etc. fact is in BCN, if your new in this are, be very aware of sudden strange instructions during your approach. I must say they are learning and improving by the day, but not fast enough.
now, just as I hear the voice of the ATC controller, I know already if I have to prepare myself for a special approach full of adrenaline and cursing with the worst words in english , spanish and any other language i can remember, fun for those who will listen to the CVR :-P
the bes thing is to just keep an eye on the distance they put you to the traffic ahead of you, and always ask what is the type of aicraft preceeding, they forget sometimes to tell you that i is a B747 or a heavy traffic with minimum to less than minimum separation, from tht point on i manage my approach so as to maintain the safe distance to the preceeding aircraft, i really dont care about who is behind me , thats ATC problem, I concentrate on the traffic in front of me, i manage speed as necessary to have a stabilized approach.
but trust me when i tell you this, i flew also in eastern europe there are really worse places than BCN. I was once cleared into Krakau airport, in the night with FOG an the airport is only CAT I and RVR was less than 100meters for an ILS approach, ATC did not even care about the RVR, they actually even ask us if we are OK for that, now I laugh about it, but at that time i was practicing my multilingual cursing.
Hope that adds a light to you guys.:ok:

[Right Way Up]

If you find BCN bad the best advice is to fly into Madrid a few times (especially on Southerlys). BCN won't seem quite so bad anymore. :}

[toro11]

same old story. you love it eh. Bcn bla bla bla. Just a bit of flying around the world and you will see is not so bad. But if your flying is just north to the spanish coast and return, obviously you have nothing to compare it with. I have been flying all over the world and let me tell you the only time i felt I was going to die due to a radar vector was in Las Vegas USA, straight into a mountain. So, get a life mate

[Suggs]

Last week I asked to cut across the landing r/w to shorten the ridiculous taxi, obviously I was refused which didn't bother me, until a local airbus which pushed behind me, did exactly that and departed ahead of me.

Complete Joke

I think the controlling there has deteriorated significantly in the last couple of years

[Capt Pit Bull]

There's short cuts and there's short cuts.

On the one hand you have the achieveable but tricky. A competant pilot can line up his ducks to cope with that, or, if you get caught out, 'fess up and say you need more track miles.

Then there is the rediculous. The "so-completely-impossible-why-are-you-wasting-time-asking-me" category.

e.g. Downwind at BCN, held at 9k for conflicting traffic underneath, then told to turn and intercept with what would have been about 11 track miles. Obviously I declined, but really, what planet was the ATCO on?

I heard another crew were offered the same. Their response? "Negative ma'am this is an airliner not a grand piano"

pb

[sharpclassic]

Experience 1.

10 mile final, 25R, we spot an aircraft on TCAS heading suspiciously towards the LOC from the east. When said aircraft (MD80 - guess who) is vectored 3 miles in front of us, we question this with ATC. It is then us who are broken off the approach and put the the back of the 'queue'

Experience 2

Vacated 25R, onto the first taxiway (T I think it is).

Ground: XXX123, taxi left Tango, (garbled) right Hotel, stand E3
Us: Taxi Left Tango, Right Hotel to Stand E3, XXX123.

Imagine my surprise then as the Captain starts the right turn onto Hotel to cross the Seirra taxiway to see another MD80 (guess who) hurtling down Seirra from our right, only just avoiding a collision thanks to the quick braking from the Captain. When we questioned ATC, they had a go at US claimed that they said "AFTER the (guess who), right Hotel stand E3.

I thought that the whole point of a read back was to confirm that the instruction had been understood?

LEBL - expect the unexpected, have eyes in the back of your head!

[jlms]

Hi folks.

I've come across this post thanks to a fellow work colleague at LECB (Barcelona Air Traffic Control Center) who was reading through everything that you guys have been sharing here. When I asked him about the issue being commented he replied, "you know, the usual bashing we get"... I immediately asked him whether he was going to step into the conversation and his reply was "there's no point, whatever you try to comment will always be bashed again..."

So, although I am currently not working on BCN Approach and you guys can only come across me on higher en-route sectors I would like to state for the record a couple of things:

- We are FED UP of being portraid as the worst air traffic control service in the world (and beyond as someone stated).

- We are in the business for the same reason as each of you guys, to maintain the strictest measures of safety and order while allowing people and cargo travel to and from.

- We are always a telephone call away after any event/issue/incident.

- We are available 24/7 for visits around any centre and tower.

- We are willing to learn, listen, correct and go to any length in order to offer you guys a better service.

These are the facts. First hand. And I know I'm speaking for a large percentage of my colleagues.

Thanks for your time.

[TheGorrilla]

Ah good! I'm glad you've noticed this thread! I've just flown back from LEBL and I would like to raise a couple of issues:

If the principle language of aviation is english, why don't you use it? It would boost our SA considerably. So would standard phraseology for that matter.

You blatently stick as many Iberia aircraft infront of us as you physically can, is this not a prejudice and therefore against the principles of fair trade in europe?

Thanks for the invite to the tower, however, my Spanish lingual skills aren't that great so I fear it may be a waste of time.

[Airbrake]

Jlms.

While many of your colleagues at Barcelona may do their best to be professional a significant number are highly unprofessional, and it is this group that has given Barcelona Air Traffic its reputation. Only last week I was vectored through the center of 25R to the south just for ATC to feed in an Iberia from behind us.

This is a common occurrence and similar examples are repeated on a daily basis both in the air and on the ground. Madrid ATC do the same adding many track miles to arrivals just to feed you in behind another Spannair or Iberia.

Unfortunately this unprofessional bias towards Spanish aircraft by a significant number of Spanish controllers has given Barcelona and Madrid controllers their poor reputation.

[quickturnaround]

Jlms, If you guys would just STOP speaking Spanish, that would boost your credibility, or do the Spanish ATCO's think that the Spanish pilots do not master English?

[68+iou1]

Folks, I fly out of Spain and agree that Spanish ATC is crap!
If you compare them to most other countries in Europe, I think that the Spanish mucho attitude to aviation is the problem. Spanish pilots don’t do speed control. It’s as simple as that.
Over the years, ATC has adapted to get the job completed. And this is what has evolved.
We should be complaining to Euorcontrol, not bitching on pprune!

[OCEANIC CLEARANCE]

First of all, I don't agree with the initial post. I think that if u were vectored like that is just to shorten ur flight as much as possible, this is at least what they usually do at night in lebl, if u can not do it, just say it!! (probably influenced by all cargo flights inbound)

I've been flying all around Europe, and some flights to US and Middle east. I would say that spanish atc is sure a world top ten (probably the #7 or ·8). I agree of many mistakes u have all commented but u are not looking at your own countries with the same point of view. What I like in Spain is that they don't make us slow down 50 miles away from the airport (excepting Madrid) and that obviously is harder job for ATC, if u go to Charles de gaulle or le bourget u must descent many miles before the FMS's TOD and slow downed. ¿Is that a good ATC procedure? No, but is easier for them. Same in London.

About language, maybe its safer but that's not an Spanish ATC problem, try to post about ICAO rules. Same could be said for all french ATC, Italy, and many eastern Europe countries. Another solution is that all u (English Gods) try to learn any other language, I'm sure that would do your flights safer!! :rolleyes:

And finally....mmmm....are you sure that in UK or US aeronautical english is spoken????????? :suspect: I don't think so....

[becki_]

"I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller."

- Going back to the original post, what does it matter whether the ATCO was male or female? :ugh:

[Mach086]

"About language, maybe its safer but that's not an Spanish ATC problem, try to post about ICAO rules. Same could be said for all french ATC, Italy, and many eastern Europe countries. Another solution is that all u (English Gods) try to learn any other language, I'm sure that would do your flights safer!! :rolleyes:"

Are you SERIOUS? There is a reason why there is an international language in ATC. Using your ideology, every longhaul pilot in the world needs to speak 100 languages so that he/she can communicate with any countries ATC that they fly over.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Mach086]

- Going back to the original post, what does it matter whether the ATCO was male or female? :ugh:

I don't think any cards need to be played here Becki

When different people say a story, some like to give it context, description etc. I think the poster would have been annoyed regardless if it was a woman, man, old, young, black, white, blah blah.

[OCEANIC CLEARANCE]

Are you SERIOUS? There is a reason why there is an international language in ATC. Using your ideology, every longhaul pilot in the world needs to speak 100 languages so that he/she can communicate with any countries ATC that they fly over.


I think it's obvious it was a joke. But in Spain whenever a transmission affects a foreign airliner is spoken in English (at least most of them). What I was trying to say is that in England, aeronautical English is NOT used, and that for pilots from other countries is like when you come to Spain and ATC speaks in Spanish to other planes.

[TheGorrilla]

Maybe I'll just start writing an ASR every time I go there.....

[justintime5]

Hi,

I was based in Spain for almost 2 years. During that time I built my own opinion about Spanish control and have various goods and bads.
Spanish control is pretty conservative regarding spacing. They don’t usually push you to the limits but on the other hand they also stop climbs and descents in a crazy way due to this as well. This makes me think that they are not 100% confident on their skills or they just simply don’t care about our flight economy.
There is definitely not a pro Spanish control as it dose happen in France and many other countries. We can get some cases but I have seen how Air Berlin takes a clear benefit into LEPA.
Spanish controllers are not aviation motivated and are big money – little work motivated.
Spanish control has a very VERY limited knowledge about planes and how they fly. If everything goes standard, things usually work but when they don’t hell brakes loose.
"LEBL control, XXXXX request to burn fuel due to flap problem"
"XXXXX, STBY for area to drop fuel"
"LEBL, we don't request to drop fuel we need to BURN fuel we are a B737"
"XXXXX, ok climb FL200 and turn Heading 330 for vectors to the ILS"
"LEBL, .....we can't accept vector for approach until we have burned fuel and reduced our weight, we would like to keep low in an area we can hold!!!"
"XXXXX, .....ok......STBY to drop fuel"

Can you imagine this kind of ATC with a double engine failure and about to land in a river? They would be ordering diner over the phone I suppose.:rolleyes:

This lasted for about 8 minutes until we changed frequency.

Regarding speed limits I have to say that the first guys to disregard speed limitations are British pilots. In LEPA you can read in the airport briefing that you have to keep 250 below FL100, 210 until localizer and then 180 till 5 miles out or something like that (I just can’t remember) I can remember that they are a little fast in some cases but perfectly doable. In countless occasions I could see British planes doing 140-150Kts 8 or more miles out. This is also not complying with speed restrictions. Once a B767 was 25 miles out doing 140Kts and the ATC requested this aircraft to speed up and they said they couldn’t as it was a training flight. It would be nice to teach pilots in flying in a proper way. Here is where Spanish ATC is terrible. In any decent control if you don’t comply you are vectored out of the approach and make you re think your decisions. In Spain you will find some one dropping speed when instructed to keep a specific speed and he will land and you will be doing a go around.

Basically what I find is that you simply can’t trust Spanish ATC.

[ReportZMR]

I sadly have to admit youve had a very good analysis of the situation.
I must tell you we have very good proffesionals among us but the system fails...
Regards

[ReportZMR]

It was for justintime5

[hetfield]

but the system fails...

???

Why does the system fail if an ATCO is unable to understand basic English?

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

CDG!!! "Bonjour ABC 123 you arrrrre number fowwwwer behind 'eavy 747 4 miles a'ead. cleared to land 27L" on this ocasion we went around as cloud was on cat 1 limits and frankly i hate it when tower wash their hands of you! On th other hand my french (interms) of ATC french is vastly improving with every visit. decollage, a doit, a gauge blah blah blah blah :} BCN is nothing compared to that debacle (sp)? Oh and La rochelle were a hoot 6 months ago by clearing me for a straight in ILS from 80miles away! oh they dooo have a sence of humour! :E

[ReportZMR]

I mean with "the system" a lot of things related to our work.
For instance that one.

[JToledo]

Hello, everyone :-)

Unlike my colleague JLMS I am an approach controller at LEBL, although quite recent, just validated four months ago. Now at least you have someone to direct your complaints towards, and I'll gladly accept any input you provide.

Let me start by acknowledging that mistakes are done at times and there is always room for improvement. Having said that let me discuss some of the points raised here:

Night approaches to RWY 02:
Traffic entering via ALBER or BISBA have quite a long way to go via SLL. We try to cut the way short by vectoring for a right hand circuitish approach. Because this vectoring is done very early on, wind my take you closer to the FAF than initially planned. My personal take is to redirect you to VIBIM, which is the IAF from the east, and then vectors. From this comfortable position I often clear ILS at own discretion thinking that you can better decide whether to cut the approach short or lose some height having no other restrictions. Would you rather I always gave standard vectors for approach when your are the one and only traffic? (only honest questions here)

Short approaches and traffic cutting in:
As someone commented, we don't tend to slow traffic down if not necessary. In the same vein if we believe a pilot will accept a visual approach or vectoring to mile 5 on final we tend to give him priority as that will minimize the average delay, which is what we care most about (after safety, of course!). It is a fact that the companies that more often will request such approaches, or accept high speed app tend to be local.
On the other hand it is true that we may miscalculate distances and things can go wrong. I try to apply this technique only if I don't have to unnecessarily slow down the traffic behind, but I may fail. If this is the case I for one will honestly apologise.

Speed on approach:
It is fact that it is on our culture to be more "creative". In other words: not every Spanish ATCO does things the same way. That has created the unfortunate result that many pilots will try to maintain its own separation using self speed control. And that will bring some very unwanted surprises for those of us that DO maintain speed control all the way to the FAF. If you believe that your current speed is inappropriate for your position, please say so, but don't act on your own without telling anyone.

At this point I have a question of my own. There are times where I will ask pilots to maintain 250 knots up to 14DME or so to reduce a gap. Is it too much to ask? In particular, are there specific speed limitations for Easyjet? Because I find that's the company most likely to reduce beforehand. On the same note may I bring up the fact that 160 knots up to 4DME is published on the AIP.

English language on approach:
Certainly us Spaniards are not known for having the best command of foreign language in Europe, and it's true that my older colleagues did not have as strict selection criteria on this subject as nowadays. I would hope though that the situation is improving with the new generations, and I can happily announce that our employer has been giving additional aviation English courses to those of us with lesser scores on a voluntary check we did a year ago.

Personally I started my aviation days gliding in the UK, so I don't have any issues and would be glad if English was mandatory. But that sad fact is that it isn't. And worse, many a Spanish pilot will not be expecting calls in English. That means a high risk of a lost call if I decided to generally address everyone in English and I'm the only one doing that. I am well aware of the safety implications of the lost situational awareness, but I think you will understand that a lost final vector instruction does not increase safety either. So my personal take is that I will stress English on situations where traffic information is important, but not otherwise.

Controller-Pilot familiarisation:
I would say we both need to get together more often that we actually do. Having said that I think LEBL does not do too bad. There are meetings organised for both controllers and pilots about every three months, and many issues are discussed. I don't know how well the information is disseminated afterwards, and I have just asked the organiser whether I could republish the bulletins here. Iberia, Vueling and Spanair are usually well represented, but we also had an Easyjet pilot on the last meeting. If you would like to participate in our "Foro de Controladores Pilotos" drop me a note.

Regarding actual visits I do make a point to try to fly in the cockpit every time. Spanish ways make it easier on local carriers, but sadly it hasn't been possible for foreign ones, the ones for which I would probably benefit the most. I know it is due to regulations, but it's sad indeed. On the other hand my offer to the pilots I meet to visit the ACC have been very very seldom taken. I know you don't happen to just visit air traffic control centers like I do aircraft, but I think you would benefit. Drop me a note too if you're up for a visit.

If you have read this far you have my gratitude for your patience. I hope this has served to clarify some positions, although it is no excuse for the obvious mistakes we do sometimes. Hopefully we can work together to improve the quality of service. And if anybody knows how can I arrange a visit to the London TACC I'll be very happy about it!

Cheers,
Juan.

[haughtney1]

Superb post Juan..will be interested in the responses.

[rooaaiast]

Juan,
thanks for your side. Enjoy flying into Spain, and yes you do sometimes use your initiave. Not a problem if you plan ahead.
Maybe a little understanding of other languages for english speaking pilots might be useful, but the fact is that over the years as the Southern Europe increased in prosperity relative to W. Europe, I have noticed more local languages being used.
Regards
rooaaiast

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Hi Juan,

Regarding EZY standard speeds, these are our guidelines:
-250 kts 10,000' at 30NM
-220 kts 6000' at 20 NM
-180kts 3000' at 10 NM

Of course they are not set in concrete and we do our best to comply and use common sense. But those 'gates', as we call them, all aim to get us to be stable at 1000'. That means landing configuration, on the glide, no more than 10kts above target speed.

With that in mind, you can probably see why we would not want to be at 250 kts at 14 NM and 4000'. I know the above gates and being stable at 1000' is all fairly conservative, but it has brought down the number of unstable approaches at EZY as close to zero as you can reasonably expect.

The biggest problem is still the combination of language and 'creative' ATC. It's very uncomfortable for us to try and second guess what you are doing by looking at the TCAS symbols. Also, I don't think 'creative' is a great idea at a major airport, unless we really are the only one on approach. Vectors to the FAF, using standard speeds, is simply safer. Of course sometimes we all have to use our brains and cope with different situations. But AIMING to be standard most of the time is a better plan.

Thanks for sharing your views!

P

[Bearcat]

Perma slowing up to 220kts 20dme out must drive controllers mad surely?

Likewise Juan asks about 250kt to 14d....yes it can be done in the bus no bother but we must be level at 3000ft at 14d and starting to decelerate from 20ktto be comfortably selecting flap 2 180kts on glide intercept reducing to 160kt for 4 d.....a 321 might be a bit tight on this one.

Also Juan why do LEBL in the AIP insist acceleration begins after take off at 3500feet as against the normal 3000feet else where.....

Thanks for your post Juan.

[eagle21]

There are times where I will ask pilots to maintain 250 knots up to 14DME or so to reduce a gap.

It depends when you inform the pilot about it and whether you have given him clearance to descend to 3000ft.

As a previous poster earlier said, you must be level at 3000 and start reducing from 250kts at D14.

You will find that many UK based carrier will carry out a CDA type of descent and in this case they wouldn't be able to configure the aircraft early enough for landing.

It would maybe help you if you gave a clearance like this one: XXX123 descend to 3000 ft to be levelled by D14 with speed of 25OKts

[JToledo]

As a matter of fact I am not condonig "creativeness". I do believe it would be easier for everyone if everything was always done by the book. But such is our company culture, and that I'm afraid is much harder to change than any procedure. On the other hand it also expedites operations if you're number one or willing to do a VAP to D5 and we don't restrict you to 220K out of the IAF as the AIP says.

Thank you very much for your comments regarding speeds on approach. But I'm not really sure about how they fit with my experience. In the situation I mentioned I want you to keep the speed up because you have a gap to close ahead, which means I will have already cleared you to 2300 feet and ILS approach. Surely that means you can set your descent profile to be level well in advance to help with the reduction afterwards if needed? In that scenario, will it suffice then if I asked to maintain 250k for 5 more miles? (up until approximately D14, but I wouldn't want to use that reference since you will likely not be yet loc stablished by then)

Regarding acceleration after 3500 I have to say I'm not positive, but from my reading of the AIP I would say it's due to noise abatement. Departures from 25L come very close to a populated area, full of very noise aware neighbours. So much so that they have set a up a near real time system to follow the traces of aircraft in and out of LEBL to gather data for complaints. Worth a look: http://www.omsa.GavaCiutat.cat (http://www.omsa.gavaciutat.cat/esp/aeroport/impacteacustic.asp). But if I understand correctly this procedure is to be used only for non RNAV departures, and these are not that common.

This thread is certainly becoming very productive. Keep them coming, guys. :ok:

[Overhaul]

why do LEBL in the AIP insist acceleration begins after take off at 3500feet as against the normal 3000feet else where

Hello all,

A carefull reading of the noise abatement procedures in BCN, tells us that if we are following an RNAV SID, almost the only limitation is reaching the designated altitudes at the relevant points, without mentioning the procedure.
The 3500 ft acceleration only aplies for aircraft flying conventional SID's or not able to comply with the mentioned altitudes.

The very important thing is starting the turn at 500', at least if you are sunbathing in Gavá beach

[Del Prado]

I find it interesting that BA and Easyjet have the same stable approach criteria on the A319/20/21 and yet while they both 'cheat' at 160 to 4, Easyjet regularly slow 2 miles before BA.
Why is that?

[Bruce Wayne]

Thread drift

> JToledo

Juan,

Certainly us Spaniards are not known for having the best command of foreign language in Europe

Your command of English is exceptional and frankly vastly better then than the standard of English generally used in the UK both socially and professionally.

back to thread....

[PGA]

Ezy do have once handed out this christmas cards with these so called gates, however these gates are nowhere to be found in our ops manual, and i'm pretty confident the FDM ppl in hangar 89 don't care how you fly your approach, as long as you follow part B guidance and make sure you're stable at 1000ft, and by 500ft as an absolute minimum.

Flying 250 kts up to 14 dme in an a 319 is absolutely no problem, you just have to be at suitable height for that speed, if you get cleared direct tebla and descend to either 2300ft or sometimes 3000ft, you can happily maintain 250kts to 14 dme as long as you're round about 3000ft, then with the thrust levers at idle decelerate level. I would personally never fly 220 knots at 20 miles out, unless its an ATC request, or the particular approach requires it. When its just rador vectors for an ILS its simply not necessary.

I regularly fly in to BCN and personally never experienced any major problems. The one thing we can't do is 180 to 4, 180 to 6 is the absolute max for me personally since we often land in configuration 3, which means the aircraft doesn't slow down that well. The reason people slow down is because people are generally very worried about busting the 1000ft gate, which is strange, since you only really have to be in the landing configuration then and yes, preferably stable, however if not, its no drama if you are at 800ft or so.

I have in all my time at easyJet never had to go around for an unstable approach, it's not pushing it, its just knowing what the aircraft can do for a certain heigth / weight / head or tailwind.

[jb5000]

Agree with all of the above, but it does say in the (EZY) ops manual that we are supposed to be on the localiser no faster than green dot (about 200kts) and the glideslope no faster than S speed (around 180kts).

Fully admit that it's possible to do 250 until 10-12 miles out, but a few pilots get a bit touchy if you're much faster than the ops manual guidance above.

With the 160-to-4 comment, again in the manual it says we should start slowing down 1 mile before that (i.e. 5DME for 160kts, 6DME for 170, 7DME for 180) in order to guarantee a stable approach.

[PGA]

Completely agree with you JB,

However I do think its important to recognize these are all guidelines and as long as a stable approach is achieved ezy is happy with it.

Being based at one of the European bases I would say that we hardly ever comply with the 180 kts on the loc, simply because we often intercept the loc at around 25 miles. Equally we sometimes end up being high and fast because of ATC. I do know we can tell ATC we won't be able to comply with some of their requests, which we do, however if you got a heavy 5 miles ahead and 3 miles behind not complying is no option. 220 fully established and the gear at around 10 miles still works too.....Flexibility is key.

In my humble opinion it all comes down to common sense, just make sure, whatever you do, that you're fully configured by 1000ft and stable at 500ft, there is no excuse not to be and we do all know that.

[one post only!]

Del Prado, because we are not as gung-ho as the guys at BA!!! Bunch of cowboys.

JOKE, I was joking!!!

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Ahhhm, the beauty of PPRuNe. No matter what you post, you'll get a steady flow of replies from people who love to let you know that they think they are a better pilot than you are. "250kts to 14DME? I do it reading the paper". "220kts at 20 DME? You must be a brain dead cadet". "I fly at Mach 5.0 at the FAF and NEVER been unstable". Love it.

JToledo, I was mostly trying to explain how we try generally look at approaches. Of course, in real life, we rarely do 220 at 20 NM on the localiser. It's more likely to be seen with 20 NM to go on the downwind. But the training department have been very keen, and very successful, at minimising unstable approaches while yet flying a continuous descent approach (CDA). The gates given in my first post are guidelines given to new entrants. They help newbies flying that stable CDA. With time on type, most of us are obviously less conservative. I just wanted you to know where we're coming from.

To all the flying gods out there: well done. I just wish I could be like you :cool:

[TheKabaka]

Hi, a great posting by JToledo deserves a reply.

From the BA perspective it sounds as though we are flying to the same gates as EZY (should be stable at 1000', must be stable at 500') so i'm surprised if one company is significantly more conservative than the other. Both clearly have a good culture and safety monitoring program so will not bust the 500' gate.

A BA crew are unlikely to go to BCN very regularly so not very familiar I probably go 4 or 5 times a year, I think what all pilots want is predictability if it was widely known that ATC want 250/14d following a level decel then we could often achieve that. It is the creativity you mention which means we are trying to second guess whats going to happen next leading to a conservative approach.

We should help you by informing ATC of our intentions or needs, and similarly if you can tell us the plan in good time we can adjust the flight to meet those criteria (or own up as not been able to comply!).

Something like "XXX123 I'd like you to maintain 250kts till 14d, expect 20 mile final at 3000'" may help.

These are just my thoughts, hope it is of intrest

[Looker]

Agree with the above - communication is the key.

If ATC let us know what their plan is - especially if it deviates from the norm -then we can plan ahead accordingly. Being told to do 220kts followed by a long long silence is not particularly helpful.

bmi have the same 1000ft / 500ft stability criteria as Easy/BA and so we have some scope for flexibilty if you share the plan.

Personally I have no great problems with BCN ATC - I get more twitchy about Murcia.

[Del Prado]

From the BA perspective it sounds as though we are flying to the same gates as EZY (should be stable at 1000', must be stable at 500') so i'm surprised if one company is significantly more conservative than the other. Both clearly have a good culture and safety monitoring program so will not bust the 500' gate.


based on watching 10/20 A319s per hour every workday for as long as I care to remember, (many)Easyjet pilots are much more conservative at applying 160 to 4/170 to 5 than BA.

Obviously that's not at BCN so sorry for the thread drift.

[theparrellbarrell]

One very significant difference between EZJ 500' stable criteria and BA is that EZJ have a speed allowance of only Vapp+10 kts, whereas I believe BA allow +20kts....this is probably the origin of the 'more conservative' outcome - and it works, latest figures show very very few 500' busts.:O

[Permafrost_ATPL]

whereas I believe BA allow +20kts

Can someone verify that? Interesting if it's true. Especially with BA not allowing manual thrust. Found out the other day (the hard way) that manual thrust on a windy-ish day is not a great idea :\

The problem is nobody knows what 'transient' speed excursions mean. With the current climate, nobody wants the dreaded phone call for not going around, so we're often going around for what's probably a truly transient speed excursion. I know, thread drift...

P

[FlyUK]

BA SOP-

In order to satisfy the stabilised approach criteria, the aircraft will be:
• in the planned landing configuration.
• on the correct vertical profile.
• have approach power set.
• be at a speed no more than Target App Speed + 15 kts.
If the above criteria are not met at 1000 ft RA then consideration must be given to a go-around. If the above criteria are not met at 500 ft RA then an immediate go-around must be carried out.

Manual thrust is indeed not allowed unless required. Personally I have been on the 'bus for nearly 4 years and never had any worries with it, although there have been times when I would have made corrections quicker than it has. Do I agree with the auto thrust policy? No. But that is not what this thread is about.

I operated to BCN a couple of days ago and had no problems. Although we were asked to slow to 230knts at 25NM as we were number 7! We believe the nice lady meant to say number 3. It was quiet though.

ps. 230 knots on the airbus is truly the most unhelpful speed if you are going for a CDA (as we do as much as possible). Can't take flap, can't take much speed brake, can't slow down if you're doing 700ft min decent. 220 would be a preferable speed to ask for. IMHO.

ATB.