Whats with BCN approach??
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Whats with BCN approach??
Twice lately, and tonight especially I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller. Tonight, 150 deg "intercept" to 02 final, off-scale indications, 1000' ft high, told cleared approach. What the...???
Talk about DIY approaches. Any other similar recently?
Talk about DIY approaches. Any other similar recently?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Indeed - vectoring for (the old) ?07? had been a problem (and 'illegal') for years and reported many times.
"I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller." - me too, but best not speak about it.
"I've been dropped in it by a young fem.. controller." - me too, but best not speak about it.
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controller
Hi guys, once it don't endanger the operation it is quite normal to me, we have to work with each other and the controller cannot do everything to fill my request, I think always there is a reason for what ever the case might be, if you are not happy about the situation after landing just give them a call by phone and you will get a explanation and we all will be happy to learn more of what to expect during certain operations.
Let's work together guys.
Let's work together guys.
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I don't like to bash controllers, The Spanish are pretty good, and compared to other parts of the world, very good.
But BCN at night, can be interesting, I agree with the Sand Man, I once asked if we were still under radar control, the vectoring we were given could only be flow at 152 speeds or left on a vectors to no where then instructed to self position and this was on more than one occasion, better to fly the full procedure at night if unsure.
PPRUNE is good for info, if someone reads here that ATC can be unusual at a certain time or place, it may save a go around or worse.
But BCN at night, can be interesting, I agree with the Sand Man, I once asked if we were still under radar control, the vectoring we were given could only be flow at 152 speeds or left on a vectors to no where then instructed to self position and this was on more than one occasion, better to fly the full procedure at night if unsure.
PPRUNE is good for info, if someone reads here that ATC can be unusual at a certain time or place, it may save a go around or worse.
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The Spanish are pretty good, and compared to other parts of the world, very good
It'd be okay if they didn't have the mic behind 3 yards of polystyrene... and they spoke English...and didn't give you taxi instructions at 100kts on the rollout...or not inform you the ILS isn't working for the 364th day this year....or having to dodge a S***air/I***a cutting in front of me on 'short' (150ft) finals....the list goes on.
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Silverhawk 
get a life - this IS a professional pilots network, and it's meant for sharing information in the manner and to the ends suggested by your rather more pragmatic fellow aviator Enos.
get a life - this IS a professional pilots network, and it's meant for sharing information in the manner and to the ends suggested by your rather more pragmatic fellow aviator Enos.
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pillot to atco "you're the second best atc unit in the world"... Atco to pilot "thanks!! just out of interest who is the best?"... Pilot "everyone else!".
I recon the basic problem is all centered around the fact that alot of atcos go through their training without doing any flying. let alone fly a jet. So how are they supposed to appreciate the requirements and needs of a jet on a non-standard approach on a day with a funny wind/temp inversion etc.....
On the whole the guys do a good job. I think the more info/js rides etc we can give them the better the service will be.
I recon the basic problem is all centered around the fact that alot of atcos go through their training without doing any flying. let alone fly a jet. So how are they supposed to appreciate the requirements and needs of a jet on a non-standard approach on a day with a funny wind/temp inversion etc.....
On the whole the guys do a good job. I think the more info/js rides etc we can give them the better the service will be.
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The very valuable tool of giving them jump seat rides went out the window with all the post 9/11 security tosh, certainly in all the carriers I am aware of.
A great shame for our common learning experience.
A great shame for our common learning experience.
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Captplaystation, you've hit the nail on the head. People will say that fam flights are still possible - and that is true (though very limited and often a pain to organise), but the days of an ATCO simply being invited up front when flying as an ID or regular pax are truly over. We have a new generation of young ATCOs who are great people but have little understanding of aviation in general and what goes on on the FD in particular. I spent 90% of my pax flying days on the FD prior to 911. Only once since!
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Intereresting observation from an ATC controller while doing an observation trip -
"How do you guys keep track of when ATC calls you?"
From his perspective at work every conversation is either started by him or directed at him. He didn't have to ignore 95% of all the transmissions, so it was very enlightening for him to see it from a pilot's perspective.
And it's always "XXX Center, etc". It's not XX 123 this morning, XX 223 next, followed by XX 2223, etc, etc, while XX 123, 223, and 2223 are on the same frequency.
Nothing like flying into a hub on XX 422 with XX 1422 behind you, and then departing the hub on flight 1422 right behind XX 422.
"Uh, was that for us?"
Two hardest parts of the job - 1. sleep cycle 2. "who are we today?"
"How do you guys keep track of when ATC calls you?"
From his perspective at work every conversation is either started by him or directed at him. He didn't have to ignore 95% of all the transmissions, so it was very enlightening for him to see it from a pilot's perspective.
And it's always "XXX Center, etc". It's not XX 123 this morning, XX 223 next, followed by XX 2223, etc, etc, while XX 123, 223, and 2223 are on the same frequency.
Nothing like flying into a hub on XX 422 with XX 1422 behind you, and then departing the hub on flight 1422 right behind XX 422.
"Uh, was that for us?"Two hardest parts of the job - 1. sleep cycle 2. "who are we today?"
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In the UK at least it is a myth that ATC staff are not welcome on the jump seat any more. I can't speak for every operator but the majority still allow pre arranged fam flights. However they are seldom done which is sad. 
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captplaystation - I am under the impression that we work for the same airline. Our (my) airline allows jumpseat flights for ATCOs and they couldn't be simpler to arrange - just an e-mail from the base captain to 'head office'. I have arranged and flown many in recent months - try it!
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Not been to BCN in recent years, but have had similar problems (and much worse) a bit closer to home. What is wrong with asking for more track miles, stating unable to comply or flying the procedure from the outset (depending on AD in question)? A 120 intercept is hardly conducive to a stablisied APP if you throw in a few other variables (such as the S@@@air cut in necessitating a slowdown and go down at GS intercept). Sure if you ask for any these then you are liable to be up there longer than you planned, but if this is going to be a problem, eg resulting in a nice "chat" with your base captain, then perhaps you are flying for the wrong carrier. The decission to refuse a 120 intercept should primerily be the premise of the PF (and the Captain if (s)he deems it to be unwise), company politics or local landing priority list should not enter into it.
Now off at a tangent - how many of us guys have been up to the the tower at their local base, or been in the Approach/ACC room? I thought it would meet resistance but as soon as I posed the question I was welcomed in by the ATCOs with open arms - a most enlightening afternoon out should you have the oportunity at your base.
As for taking ATCOs on the JS, if your OM allows it then why the hell not invite as many as possible. Contrary to popular rumour, we are all together in the same boat.
RIX
Now off at a tangent - how many of us guys have been up to the the tower at their local base, or been in the Approach/ACC room? I thought it would meet resistance but as soon as I posed the question I was welcomed in by the ATCOs with open arms - a most enlightening afternoon out should you have the oportunity at your base.
As for taking ATCOs on the JS, if your OM allows it then why the hell not invite as many as possible. Contrary to popular rumour, we are all together in the same boat.
RIX
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jump seats . . . . . . .
Very slightly off-topic, maybe, in which case I apologise . . . . . . . but
Just wondering if the same or similar could apply to AME's ? We are, after all, occupational physicians, and should be able to observe our "patients" in their usual place of work !
Prior to 9/11 used to get lots and lots of jump seat trips, but nowadays the only front view I get is from the left seat of my C172 !
Our (my) airline allows jumpseat flights for ATCOs and they couldn't be simpler to arrange
Prior to 9/11 used to get lots and lots of jump seat trips, but nowadays the only front view I get is from the left seat of my C172 !
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Just wondering if the same or similar could apply to AME's ? We are, after all, occupational physicians, and should be able to observe our "patients" in their usual place of work !
If you don't mind doing some voluntary work, you might get the chance to observe some crews as part of an airline LOSA programme. Find out who is running a LOSA and then volunteer your services as an observer of the LOSA aspects relating to pilot performance and physiology. I am sure that if you can find the carrier and are willing to give your time freely then you will eventually get to do some observations.
RIX
p.s. check out ICAO doc 9803 to learn more about the LOSA programme.