easyJet to go long - haul ?

[zoru]

can anyone throw any light on the probability/
feasibility of stelios starting up a trans-atlantic operation out of LGW?

happy new year to yalll.

[Sir_Fly-a-Lot]

Can pigs fly .....?

[basil fawlty]

if (Un)Easy jet, or any of the other low cost, low service brigade start long haul ops there is only one thing to say; God help the airline industry, and all those who use it and work in it!!!

[jetfueldrinker]

It was mooted some years ago, that maybe EJ should employ engineers with 767 experience. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Stelios tested the water where long haul is concerned, but may be not yet. Let us at least get over the repacutions of 11-9-01 before we get too excited.

IMHO I think that a lot has to be learned from the US experience of low cost operators; eventually what started out to be low cost becomes 90% of schedualed, but without the comforts of what you would normally expect for a trip costing so much. I feel that the big boys feer that they have too much to lose if yhe low costers get a foot hold in the money making market.

[Unwell_Raptor]

Isn't the good news that the market will decide? Low cost will only be attracted to high-traffic routes, and we shall see how many people want a minimum service level on a 6-10 hour flight. Long sectors almost entirely remove the advantages of fast turnrounds. As it is, you can fly transatlantic for a couple of hundred quid if you want to, and that does not leave a lot of room to cut fares further.

The die is cast for short haul, but low cost won't have anywhere near the impact on the long runs. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[zoru]

basil

or maybe bye bye ba....ouch sorry rod.... nothing personal mate.

[Neo]

Nah, Bollocks! EasyJet's (and the other low-cost operators for that matter) business model depends on high utilisation of aircraft on short sectors - long haul requires a different model with higher costs. This would push them into closer competition with the established long-haul players who can rely on their business and first class to maintain margins while they flog their economy seats at a price the low-costers cannot match. Eventually, EasyJet would need to offer business and first class services to compete - and I can't see that fitting in with their cheap 'n cheerful approach.

[Sir_Fly-a-Lot]

Hear, Hear, Neo !
:) :) :)

[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: Sir_Fly-a-Lot ]</p>

[controller friendly]

Sorry
Don't agree, as Florida is becoming a standard destination for Brits, surely money could be made on a low cost op from LGW to SFB daily. As EZY luv Boeing, what extra could a 767 cost, if it works from LGW then would follow LTN, LPL,GLA... who knows, the futures bright the future is low cost.... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[BOEINGBOY1]

but many people already do offer a low cost service from various uk airports to sfb - its called a charter flight! anyway, pax figures for uk tourists to florida had declined quite significantly in the past few years, so much so that many tour operators have cut capacity by a large ammount, and so less seats. may pick up again - who knows, but if existing low-cost charter flights go with empty seats and you can fly scheduled (if you shop around) trans atlantic to nyc, bos, mia for around £200 - doupt there is much of a gap,easy can fill.

[xyz_pilot]

Is Stelios british? Can he own an airline that operates outside the eu?

[rentaghost]

Stelios was quoted as saying at the initial set-up of EZY, 'if I ever talk about doing long-haul, will somebody please shoot me!'.

[TwinAisle]

The word that springs to mind is "CityBird", who used to run low cost trips out of BRU to LAX, MIA and I think MCO.... where are they now?

FWIW, I work as a business consultant in this sector, and I think Neo hit the nail squarely on the head. The LCAs won't get a toehold in the long haul sector because the majors won't let them.

A prediction - the LCAs may turn out to be the "dot coms" of the airline business... remember ValuJet?

TA

[The Guvnor]

Most certainly low cost carriers can operate long haul - just don't try and operate both longhaul and shorthaul at the same time.

Laker's Skytrain operation was an overwhelming success - until he put Regency Service on board. It scared the heck out of the big boys who thought he was after their premium pax so they zapped him. Ironically, most business pax steered well clear of Skytrain because they equated it with the great unwashed, backpacking students etc.

The lesson from Sir Freddie is therefore identify your market - and stick to it.

Of course, there's nothing stopping an entrepreneur from doing what Branson has and setting up new companies, each of which have their own identity and business plan, to operate these services.

xyz-pilot is right, though - EZY as it is currently constituted would not be permitted to operate services outside the EU from the UK. Not only isn't Stelios not British, he's not even resident here (he lives in Monaco).

[Stagnation Point]

Guv

Isn't not, isnt that a double negative, but I guess we get the drift.

Until someone opens up a chain of restaurants offering british food and beer the US won't be as popular a destination as the Mediterrainian resorts are that lay on all the comforts of home.

A friend of mine is going to San Fran (not that type of friend) for a business conference and if he flies out on Monday and returns on Friday the fare is £1000, if he stays over for the weekend the fare reduces to £250. If Easy Jet could beat that they would be doing quite well.

The LCA's work on advertising rock bottomm fares that they sell at a loss, because if you fill up a plane at that fare there is no way they could make any money. There standard fares must still be about the same as any other carrier and they get the people who are desparate to get there and will pay the high fare at the last minute.

The Businessman will always pay the high fare because they want the flexibility, if the meeting is cx at the last minute or the times are changed they can either take a refund or change the time that they fly. The more discount you get on your ticket the less flexible the airline will be changes to flights or refunds, also the less you pay for the ticket the less guarantee you have of getting onto the flight in teh first place. If the flight is overbooked the last on is the traveler that has payed the least for his seat.

One thing that amazes me is that no one has challenged the LCA's for anti-competitive behaviour. eg FR have seen off Go on the Scottish to Dub routes by undercutting them on the fares, if FR have been making a loss on those routes to get rid of GO then that must be anti competitive. I'm not a lawyer, does anyone know what the law is on that type of activity.

[BIG E]

longhaul what a load of old tosh,this does not fit into the ezy business plan,by the way stelios does not own the airline,wasn't it floated not so long ago??

[silverknapper]

Other than anything else, one of the prime factors in the easy model is to operate one type only,for obvious reasons of crewing. It would go against everything said so far to then operate 75/767 and have to type rate x amount of pilots onto this, not too mention cabin crew and engineers. Maybe one day the NG aircraft will have a dual rating with the 777 then there will be no stopping him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[clipstone]

Just 2 points to make:

1, easyJet Switzerland operate oputside the EU
2, Stelios in a European Citizen so even if he did owner all of EZY (which as rightly pointed out he doesn't) then he would still have the right to fly from the UK to outside the EU, ownership just has to be within the EU not the country of domicile (look at BY/BLX/JMC etc all owned within the EU not the UK)

[The Guvnor]

Big E - Stelios and his family still own around 60% of the company.

clipstone - EZY Switzerland is, I believe, majority owned by Swiss interests and acts as a 'franchisee'.

The rules are very simple, and you can get hold of a copy from the CAA's Economic Regulation Group if you want. They boil down to the following:

1) If you want to operate intra EU only, the company must be majority owned and controlled by EU nationals. Brits, Greeks, Belgians, French - it doesn't matter.

2) If you want to operate from any EU country to a point outside the EU, then the company must be majority owned and controlled by nationals of that country. This is one of the issues that's holding up GSS - who actually controls it. John Porter and his minions, which would be fine - or Atlas Air, which isn't?

Those rules will change as the EU takes over the sovereign rights on bilaterals. Incidentally, OM is ultimately owned by Globus, which is a Swiss company.

[mjenkinsblackdog]

Easyjet has at this time no plans on going long haul .
It is concentrating on high frequency european routes ,and building up its Gatwick base.
Hope that helps. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[Zulu]

Interesting thread...

Guv - what/who are GSS and OM?

[t'aint natural]

Some four years ago I had the great good fortune to be seated next to Stelios on one of his flights. I raised the possiblity of long-haul operation, and he was very much against it. He cited the example of PeoplExpress, which he believed had had a viable business right up to the point where they began transatlantic operations. He had clearly studied that company's rise and fall in great detail. Such was his strength of feeling on the subject that I would be surprised if, four years on, he had changed his mind.

[The Guvnor]

Zulu - GSS = Global Supply Systems Ltd, the company formed by John Porter to operate the Atlas 747Fs on behalf of BA.

OM = Monarch Airlines (aka Spotty M)

[BOEINGBOY1]

guv just for info- spotty m (aka monarch airlines) havn't been "om" for at least 7yrs! now its plain old mon, or zb if on a scheduled flt

[Davey Clark]

Peeps,

If I try to take a family of four to good old MCO or SFB on what is being called a "cheap and cheerful" charter flight, then I challenge you all to get me a deal during school summer holidays for less than a grand!

Come on Stelios (or Michael for that matter) - "Get in there my son!!" There's money to be had!

Wings level, Ball in the Puddle....

[Flap 5]

Isn't Luton - Athens long haul? Maybe it just seems that way!

[kriskross]

But surely, Guv, EZY (UK operation, vis. EZY 721 -LPL/GVA) as well as EZS ( Swiss operation, vis EZS 942 LPL/GVA) operate from the UK to Geneva? Switzerland is still outside the EU.Also from AMS, NCE, LTN and LGW to GVA. But I would agree long haul would definitely appear to be outside the business plan.

[ 28 December 2001: Message edited by: kriskross ]</p>

[The Guvnor]

kriss kross - when SAir Group was given permission to acquire a majority shareholding in EU carriers Sabena and Air Liberte the Swiss Government agreed to a deal with the EU where EU carriers could operate into Switzerland as if it was an EU member state and vice versa.

[Reagan]

First of all Basil, I thought airlines were in the business of flying punters from A to B, whether it be by a low or full cost airline. It is the punter who chooses how he/she wants to get there and how much they want to pay. Choice must be a good thing. Remember, low cost airlines still employ just as many pilots and cabin crew as the others.

Secondly Guv, as easyJet is a British PLC I don't see any reason for there being a bar against flying outside the EU. After all Rod is the CEO of a British PLC and he's not even European, whereas Stelios is!!

[Reagan]

Guv, the regulations may appear to be black and white, but we all know that nothing in aviation is that clear cut. If there's a will, there's a way. After all, how do the yanks fly in and around Europe, in US registered a/c, without ever seeing stateside. It's just that they're called UPS and Fedex and have money and influence! And please don't tell me they aren't allowed to do it and therefore don,t, I've been flying freight for 6+ years and I know they do.

[speed check]

EAC to start MAN-MCO for easyjet using Ex BA 747's any takers! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

Reagan - it comes down to ownership as, I have already explained. Skippy doesn't own BA.

As for the US carriers operating N reg aircraft in Europe - now there we agree. Various European countries are permitting the Yanks to do what the Yanks refuse European airlines permission to do. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

The Yanks want Open Skies - as long as it's their version of Open Skies, that benefits their airlines. They do not want to provide cabotage; derived fifth freedom, dispense with the Fly America policy or any of their other protectionist, anti-competitive measures.

Not terribly sporting, is it?

[redtail]

Would you have it any other way, if you were in our shoes? How about we cut a deal, you all can fly over here if Southwest, can fly in Europe. Sound good?

[Reagan]

May not be a bad idea redtail, afterall easyJet, Go and dare I say Ryanair (working it's crews into the ground!) do it just as well as Southwest, if not better - hey, at least the passengers' security would be taken a little more seriously!

[Zoom]

As an occasional LCA passenger, I get cheesed off with the delays, changes, cancellations and cramped conditions that I find so regularly with the LCAs, and that's just for short hops about the UK. I usually swear never to travel that way again but, of course, the so-called 'good deal' attracts the cheap-skate in me again. I would be exceedingly cheesed off, then, if I wasn't sure what time of day, or even what day, I would be arriving at my destination some thousands of miles across the Og. I would also be exceedingly cheesed off at having my knees welded to my chin for 8 hours or more. I feel that, as far as most private travellers are concerned, the LCAs would have to operate more like the big airlines and less like taxi services to make the long-haul business attractive, especially when there are so many cheap fairs available already.

[Fluke Skywalker]

Hey ZOOM - that was brave of you, criticising a LCA (is that Loada Cr@p Airline?). Standby for a rabid attack from those who expouse this form of "transport" and vilify any other alternatives. Could it be that there are passengers out there who can resist the "cheap-skate inside them" and would like a more comfortable, reasonably priced option, where you're given the service you deserve?

Dare to defy!

The force is with me...at least until Feb!

[Scottie]

What, like a sandwich (all of £1.50) and a cup of coffee? If on a 3 hour Rome - London service I was given a tiny pasta salad I'd rather have brought my own food to sustain me! If I'm flying with a full fare carrier then I expect good service, not mediocre which the like of BA & bmi are currently giving.

No I don't work for an LCA, I work for another scheduled short haul carrier but the level of service you're paying for in a "reasonably priced option" isn't up too much. No wonder pax are taking the cheaper option, at least you know what you're getting! Last month I priced on the web a day return from London to Amsterdam. easyJet was £47, bmi was £265 & BA was £370. All economy - those are certainly expensive sandwich's with bmi and expensive all day delibags with BA!

Why do LCA pilot's fight back? Well maybe because you've been putting them down for the last X years?

<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Scottie ]</p>

[Fluke Skywalker]

Scootie - I never said that BA and BMI are always "reasonably priced options". In fact, I agree that those prices you quoted are expensive and I think that those fares - particularly day trips and those where you don't stay a Saturday night etc. - are a huge part of the problem. My comments were about what I'd like BA (shorthaul) to be (and anyone else who'd like to offer the public an alternative to the LCAs) which is a reasonably priced high quality product for the customer.

There are a lot of areas in which I find the LCAs lacking and it irritates me when their success leads them to think that their product is the only way forward. It would be a very sad day if the only options left to pax for shorthaul were LCAs (I don't even want to think about Longhaul).

The LCAs spotted a gap in the market and went after it with a vengence and with success. They've created a defined product and cornered their share of the market. But being a "no frills" product it only offers so much (little) to the customer, so there must be an alternative market for customers who want more and are prepared to pay for it. This is the market that the "Famous Five" of the BA Future Size and Shape team should be considering (in addition to the Club passenger). There's a lot more to flying than simply the price of the ticket, although that's what the LCAs would have us believe.


The force is with me...at least until Feb!

[Gypsy]

The purpose of the 'no frills' bit is to keep the cost down which for some people is the most important aspect. Frankly sitting up the front it doesn't affect me - a 737 flight deck looks the same be it in ezy, BA, BMI or wherever.

Will ezy go longhaul - I doubt it.

Would the low cost concept work on long haul - I'm not hugely sold on the idea myself but I suppose for some it would be okay and it worked for Sir Freddie.

Why do myself and other ezy pilots take on some of the negative posters on the forum - for myself I only return fire to the ones that are either inaccurate or rude. Fair criticism is okay. As I recently said on another thread if someone popped up being rude about BA pilots they'd probaly respond (Our supposed brother professionals have suggested that ezy pilots are ill mannered and waifs and strays from other locations).

Incidently a lot is made of what some poeple seem to to think of as 'full service airlines' and BA gets mentioned in this class. My honest assessment having flown with lots of airlines is that if you want full service you'd chose to fly with Thai, Singapore or Cathay.

[panda-k-bear]

Unwell_Raptor said it back on the first page, I think - would pax be able to put up with no food etc and no frills service for 7 hours plus? Or do you collect your sarnies and your lunch box at the gate?

Squeezy's business model (and Ryan's for that matter) just doesn't stand up for long haul ops, cos you can't keep the costs down - especially if you want a developed network, cos you'd have to have a hub and spoke operation, and it's that which is costing the big boys money. You'd need massive LFs for a successful point to point service, and I just couldn't see them consistently getting that. With the "real" airlines offering 200 quid returns to the States, there's not really a lot of market for the LCAs to eat into.

Personally, if I'd flown to the States with a LCA (or any other airline, for that matter) and my return flight had gone tech, and the airline refused to rebook me or put me up in a hotel until they could get me back, I wouldn't be flying with them again!

[dundoniandean]

Fluke Skywalker -

There is already a well known airline flying scheduled services with a full service at prices that compete with the LCA's prices - Monarch Airlines. In fact, they even offer free entertainment as well as a three course meal with wines etc on the short-haul sectors they fly to on their scheduled service (albeit only to 6 destinations from Luton and 3 from Manchester). It is an excellent product with excellent loads and a lot of repeat business (hence their frequent flyer scheme).

However, this kind of service extends only to holiday destination airports. That is a shame. I think there would have be a wider market there beyond holiday destinations for the airline who was willing to do it right before the no-frillers appeared in the UK. Neva mind! <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[schwabn]

Fluke Skywalker:

My idea of a full service costing 150 quid + in economy class, is neither the all-day deli meal with BA nor crappy sandwiches with BMI and LH. With a 20 quid ticket on a Ryanair flight for example, the bits that would have made the flight "Full Service" cost about a fiver, I think that's enough said about value for money on flag carriers.

[southern softy]

zoom,
cramped conditions and regular cancellations
hmmm. can you tell me the difference in leg room from an ezy 737 to a BA or scheduled 737, (apart from the fact that one reguarly carries 85% loads)

Can you also tell me the comparison of short haul cancellations or delays. When you come up with the correct honest answer you will have answered the question as to why so many business people let alone many other middle class wise people fly with us.

Happy new year from an underworked (650hrs per year is hardly hard work) rather well off ezy share holder.
<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[David Hurst]

The basic Laker Skytrain proposition was no forward booking (though that was modified), meals were bought in advance when buying the ticket, drinks were charged on board, dutyfree was sold agressively, legroom was just about acceptable (I'm over 6 foot), he cancelled and amalgamated flights at least as often as airlines do today, and charged £59 one-way to New York.
The majors squashed him when he ordered large numbers of Airbuses and applied for 600 routes around Europe. Regency Class was never a wild success. The final straw was the dramatic change to the dollar exchange rate which destroyed his cashflow.
I do not see a problem for an airline to operate a modern version of Skytrain using internet booking systems. The problem is to keep a charismatic boss from believing his own publicity and wanting to do more and greater things rather than sticking to a proven (and ultimately boring) formula.

[Gypsy]

Panda K Bear - please can you enlighten us as to what you mean by the term 'real airline'.

Are they the ones losing money?

[Few Cloudy]

Gypsy,

The polemic about low cost carriers springs from fear - fear of losing your job in these uncertain times.

By maligning these airlines and being childishly rude to their pilots "You are at the bottom of a large barrel" etc., some ( emphasize the "some" please) people try to reinforce their confidence.

What really sticks in their throats is the fact that there are actually pilots who have a pride in identifying with easyJet and are prepared to lay out sensible reasons for this. In reply not a even nodding acknowledgement to the arguments is shown, but scorn and rudeness, thus actually showing no one up but the authors.

[panda-k-bear]

Sorry, I was under the impression that this topic was about long-haul operations and easyJet, not about validating the opinions of (some quite sensitive) LCA employees. "Real" airlines are ones in inverted commas - perhaps the term "traditional airline would suit people's sensibilities more? They are the ones currently trying to feed into loss making transatlantic operations with loss making European operations - as yet i don't see that I can fly outside of Europe with EZY, or did I miss something.

Few Cloudy - perhaps I'm misunderstood here. I'm not trying to malign any aitline, simply express my point of view about EZY going long haul. In my particular sector of the industry (not a pilot) EZY, Ryan etc. represent an opportunity if anything, and are certainly not a threat. They are certainly useful for personal reasons for me and my family. No scorn or rudeness is intended, and I apologise if that's how it came across, but reading back, I still don't think that it does. Please again notye "real" in inverted commas, I do believe that I gave a precursory nod to the arguments behind there not being a high chance of a LCA going long-haul, did I not? Costs, existing structures for " real" ( or "traditional" if you prefer) airlines, interlining and pax satisfaction. Or are thses not the issue.

In any case, I reiterate that given a choice between paying 200 quid for a full service airline, with (what is laughingly called) a meal and with a guarantee of some action being taken in the event of an a/c going tech., or paying 200 quid with a LCA, then having to buy food and drink on top, and risk getting stuck on the wrong side for the pond in a backwater airport with no one giving a fig (see MOL comments to Watchdog), I know which I'd choose. What about you?

[Rwy in Sight]

Just few comments on easyjet and longhaul.
1. It seems everybody forgot People Express. They flew nicely to Europe in the Mid-80's.
2.Easy should have bought A-320 that they offer almost common crew rating with A-330 or A-340. Too bad. However I thought a B-738 may fly across Atlantic non stop.

[Tom the Tenor]

Yes, Boeing definitely were ready to offer a long range version of the Boeing 737 to the IT carriers around 1994 for Atlantic type length operations. I remember talking about it at a wedding among some EI 737 drivers <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> Those lads were saying that among othere things a part of the galley would have to be taken out.

[HOVIS]

737 ETOPS?
Now that would be fun!
Purely from a maintenance point of view I just can't see it. Airbus onthe other hand........ :)

[Young Paul]

I understood that a 737 could only operate transatlantic in a high yield config. Rather not the idea of low cost operators.

[seupp]

We've got ETOPS on our 737-800's.

seupp

[Tom the Tenor]

Hi Seupp, we are all ears - whose Boeing 737-800s would they be that are ETOPS? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[Few Cloudy]

Matter of fact easyJet themselves inherited a couple of ETOPs 737-300s when they took over TEA Switzerland.

[HOVIS]

They may be equiped for ETOPS but to be maintained and operated as ETOPS is a different kettle of fish!

[thewwIIace]

wouldnt surprise me if BA concede at LGW then once Easy rule surpreme there, circa 5 years time, still massive apptite for expansion, no more available at LGW then decide, 'well, BA roled over nicely, well do the same at LHR' then bingo, they are there. BA must bite the bullet and stay at LGW because, long haul maybe on the horizon, never been done before, but basic cost model cheaper etc, so could be in the future.