STN Security declares war on pilots

[F14]

Stansted Airport requires all crews operating or positioning through STN to hold a full Stansted Airside ID, by 1/1/09 !!!

Up to now, procedures have been in force(I wouldn't want to give details) to allow crews to position or operate via STN.

Maybe this is BAA's kneejerk reaction to the events of this week by the anarchist direct action group "Plane Stupid"?

Will this ground the STN armarda?

Will the commuters look for employment elsewhere?

[nosewheelfirst]

What ID do they use at the moment?

[student88]

Escorted I believe.

[055166k]

I presume that a NOTAM will be issued to the effect that Stansted can no longer be promulgated as a diversion airfield. If this is enforced in any meaningful way, it should result a significant traffic reduction.

[Black Knat]

Glad the idiots in security are getting their priorities right....mass invasion of their airport by protesters, pretty serious breach of security issue. Meanwhile the harrasment of flight crews and the removal of explosive water, toothpaste etc continues.
Not surprised this country is in such a state.
'Lions lead by Donkeys' springs to mind, though less Lions these days!

[embraerFObmi]

I have heard that BAA at LHR are doing the same - used to be able to get through say on a Leeds pass with another form of ID. Apparently now you need a LHR BAA pass.

Even though we have just flown over london loaded with fuel into heathrow we cant get in the building incase we are a "risk"

Utter madness. Appears the Dft or CAA cant give a monkeys. Security gropes first thing in the morning are worse than traffic wardens.

Arent Ryanair looking to buy STD? I hope so then O'Leary can sack all these numpteys who ruin people's day in security.

[IrishJetdriver]

Pax still get on the aircraft with knives (6 inch metal and also a full size bread knife). The first item was found by the cabin crew on a turnround and the second was being used by a little old lady to cut her sandwiches.

Security is necessary. Unfortunately they also hold all the cards. Until this changes then the deliberate disruption to free passage of crew will continue.

Measures are also not equal. At SOU (BAA) you can't take an empty bottle that can contain more than 100ml. At STN (BAA) you can.

Once at SOU I left the aircraft at stand 13 (technically not airside) and has to use the security point by the tower. The numpty watched the entire crew approac him from the aircraft, each of us carrying bottles of water brought from the aircraft. As soon as we tried to go back through the security point (5ft from where we came in) we got "you can't take those bottles/more than my jobs worth" etc.

Vive la revolution !!!

[-8AS]

It would appear that the clamp down is on Pilots with no Airside ID of any discription. It has been possible to get airside with a Licence and Passport. From 01/01/09 you will require a full airside pass - even if it is from LGW.

[His dudeness]

It has been possible to get airside with a Licence and Passport. From 01/01/09 you will require a full airside pass - even if it is from LGW.

I´m in executive aviation. Does that mean they want me to obtain an BAA airside pass? For every airport I fly to?

[babemagnet]

What about pilots who have an overnight in Stn or LHR? They can not leave the next day? because they will be held by security?

[mad_jock]

It sounds like they are just doing what the other BAA airports do.

I presume after the protest thing they have had the DFT all over them.


1. If you have a license and passport you have got huge problems.

2. If you have a none BAA pass you have problems but eventually someone will see sense and allow a local passholder to escort you.

3. You have a BAA pass but not a local one. After 10mins of them trying to swipe it they will either let you through unescorted or as per 2.

4. Local BAA pass you should get through unescorted.

But for 2 and 3 be prepared to produce your driving license, birth certificate (I kid you not at BHX), License, passport. But be prepared for the rules to change over night or even by shift change. You can work happly for a couple of days with no hassels to hit a brick wall on the third day.

Executive aviation will use the normal security for their classification of the apron ;) I think we can leave it at that.

I just wish they would have a country wide central pass issue office and aircrew and engineers get issued a pass centrally which is not linked to a company or an airport.

1. Isn't a problem if you fly on anything other than G reg and pretend you don't understand a word security are saying. Or maybe the thought of 300 none english speakers loose in the terminal blocking up the departure lounges not spending any money allows other rules to be used. ie a member of security escorts the 15+ crew to thier aircraft.

[fireflybob]

It really is time to take a stand against this bureaucratic nonsense - I hope BALPA gets involved with this.

Why o why cannot there me a EUROPEAN crew ID card which could be used at ANY airport in the EEC. What's the point of the European Community if we have to have a different ID for each airport? And who pays for this nonsense? Well of course WE do!

I don't think they'd get away with this in Greece! Time for a revolution I think!

Also the illegality and irresponsibility of the "protesters" at STN doesn't seem to have had any coverage in the media which I read.

As I often say if aliens landed from outer space they would not believe how things are organised now!

[fernytickles]

Isn't amazing that your passport is accepted as ID anywhere you go (in the world), yet an airport ID is only fully acceptable at the base where it was issued.

[Litebulbs]

Just play the game. It will be getting increasingly harder to get airside at any other base other than your own over the next year. More and more hoops to jump through. We will protest and Ms Smith will say, I know, how about the national ID card? Just produce that and your permanent base pass and away you go!

[King Chav]

I agree Fernytickles!

It's utter madness and it needs to be stopped ... now!

Can we start a petition (I know something or other was done recently), but we need to keep pestering the idiots that run the UK.

[Mike Echo]

Minor thread drift but along the same lines. (Mods move if you want)
For interest we take our aircraft (Biz Jet) to a maintenance company in Germany, Nuremburg. We have been informed that EU regulations will require an Airport issued Pass if the crew visit more than 5 times a year -- but going in and out of the Hangar even for lunch counts as one visit! On-Line training course followed by a verbal talk plus a "Letter of Good Behavour" i.e. a Criminal record check from the UK police. All to get to your own A/C, unescorted, during an inspection. We are assuming this will only be valid for the one airport. We'll see what happens!
M.E.

[Piltdown Man]

Go with the flow, but make sure that your company allows enough time for you and your crew to do battle with these knobheads. Personally I can't stand the scum who "do security" at airports and I will neither speak nor help them in any way whatsoever. Also, to do battle with them on their own terms is doomed to failure. Instead, fight them on their your terms. If the aircraft is blocking a stand, so be it. If this results in a late departure, tell your company (and the pax) the reasons why. Especially is you are being charged parking by the airport. I'll not be rushed into moving before we are ready and if that is inconvenient to the airport, then so be it. Also, remember, you mustn't let these people on your plane - for security reasons, obviously! It's nice denying them access.

PM

[golfyankeesierra]

But what has it to do with Ryanair? It must be a major inconvenience for the pilots but RYR itself? And judging on the reactions, everyone is affected (not familiar with the situation).

[Piltdown Man]

that EU regulations will require an Airport issued Pass if the crew visit more than 5 times a year
Is most unlikely to be enforced. This will entail every airport noting the names of every single person without a local pass passing through their security gates, each way. This will have to be done to deny access to those who have passed by too many times. Or, we'll all have to get local passes for every airport. I'd have to carry twenty or thirty passes as a minimum. Mmmmm.... A regulation truly worthy of the pondlife that deals with security, but not even they would be able to get away with this one.

PM

[Gnirren]

Best of luck for all you lucky holders of landside passes now then, there are people at STN who have waited 6+ months before getting theirs, and some have simply given up along the way.

The UK, boy am i glad I don't have to live there.

[skyloone]

Ryanair have large numbers of Brookfield pilots. Some that are floating and others that are sometimes posted off to other bases for the week. Correct me if wrong, but my understaning is that you cannot get a pass unless STN is your base and even if you have one it has to be swiped every so often to stay valid. Therefore they could no longer roster crew to fly from there. Adds up to plenty of delayed a/c ? If FR account for the majority of flights out of STN surley they would apply commercial and or legal pressure to facilitate a change of heart.... but then again.... BAA, CAA & DFT lost the plot on this security lark awhile back!

I can overfly London, land there but cannot get through the door to buy a coffee... yup lunatics... plain and simple:E

[green granite]

Not wishing to stir up a hornets nest but would not national ID cards plus the company ID remove the need for individual airport IDs. (I'm completely ambivalent about National ID cards)

[howflytrg]

As I once said to a member of STN security when positioning to operate on an LGW pass....... rules are for the guidance of wise men......and the obedience of fools! That stumped them for about 30 seconds....after which the expected rejection from the security post was experienced.

I belived that the DfT were supposed to be bringing in a universal ID system for Flight Crew so that details on the pass were stored at all uk airfields using the same gov'nt approved data base??

Or on the other hand you can just go out to Thailand and buy a BAA style airside pass with your photo on and airline logo of your choice!!! Associated press passes are buy one get one free in Koh Samui :}

[wbryce]

It seems they're truly focused on air crew while idiots are cutting down fences and singing songs of praise airside.

[The Real Slim Shady]

The solution is simple: when you get your CPL /ATPL the national CAA do the background checks and issue you with an ID.

Cabin crew? Make them go to the local CAA for an ID.

[His dudeness]

The solution is simple: when you get your CPL /ATPL the national CAA do the background checks and issue you with an ID.

In Germany you have to produce a so called ZÜP - certificate of reliability EVERY 2 years to keep your licence. The ZÜP is basically a check with every agency in Germany that is relavant for security, even the points you have on your driving licence are checked and evaluated. By a civil servant and with no strict rules, and you can`t appeal. (Democracy???)
Sometimes I think the real enemies of a law abiding, hard working citizen are....

So beware what you wish for....

[captplaystation]

George Orwell couldn't have made it up.
What relevance, real relevance, has any of it got to the real business of flying a tin can from A to B.
Anyone dedicated enough to be a sympathiser for some extremist group is gonna be a lot more clever and a lot more adept at covering their trail than to get stuffed by a few points on their licence or some totally non-security related offence.
Basically we have all the hassle & surveillance, and anybody with any real intention to cause harm leads the quiet life until . . . THE day. :ooh: Net worth of all this nanny state / jobsworth security bolloxs ? Square root of tosh all.
The pond life that inhabit VP3(?) must be beside themselves rubbing their hands in glee at their new enhanced ability to b@gger even more people around who are only trying to do a days work. . . where will all this horse manure end ?
Unbloodybelievable though in this day and age that a LGW pass is no use @ STN / PIK / EMA or wherever, strange how technology can only be utilised to dick people around and most certainly Sir not vice-versa . . . .more than me jobs worth :}

[IcePack]

Whatever.

Please do not enter into any arguments, just walk away and go back to the crew room or once well out of earshot Ring you Airline's Operations or whoever and Let them sort it out. Once you put the onus onto the security personnel and the pressure applied from your Airline/Company, you will be surprised how quickly things get solved.

Don't get angry, just let someone else take the heat.:)

[OSCAR YANKEE]

This sounds a bit far out IMHO......in total breach with ICAO guidelines which the UK has signed up to.......

[ExSp33db1rd]

It does all seem a bit much. Here, I was issued with a letter from the airport manager about 3 years ago, authorising me to drive my car - registration not specified - across the airfield to my hangar. In the last couple of months a notice has been placed on the gate asking users to please close it behind them, so I guess the Security nightmare is slowly catching up with us too ?

Sorry ! I know it's not relevant and I do sympathise, I wouldn't last 5 minutes, the cr*p I have to put up with as a pax. these days drives me up the wall.

Can't you all just sit down and refuse to board your aeroplanes one day, or do you think that maybe they won't notice in Whitehall if all air travel stops around the UK ?

[Sir George Cayley]

NATIONAL LEAVE YOUR PASS AT HOME DAY - 1st APRIL 2009 :D:D:D

Just joking GCHQ, just joking:ok:

Uh oh black limos in the road, men in black, gotta g......

[ExSp33db1rd]

Exactly ! Why not ? BALPA pls. organise.

[old-timer]

maybe they should buy a few more security jeeps to patrol the fences instead - crew have to go through enough hoops already:confused:

[General_Kirby]

Security at STN...is it Christmas cos it makes me go Ho Ho Ho. One area of the airfield you get every crevice searched for illegal exploding curry sauce, orange juice, water etc. Another area of the airfield you wave your pass and through you go. And I'm posting this because it is a complete joke and needs addressed NOW. Oh and not to mention the area of the airfield where you can chop your way in and sing Come By Ya and browse the Lush catologe while engaging in a spot of light handcuffing/bondage. I'll go before I get myself wound up.

[doubleu-anker]

Who said the terrorists will not win or are not winning? I say they are winning and will win if this stupidity carries on. At the moment they have the authorities running around like headless chickins.

The terrorists aim is to disrupt and create chaos. Well the way I see it they have achieved that goal. They have managed to disrupt the lives of millions of people. I can see no end to it until we all stand up and say enough is enough!!

[FullWings]

Not wishing to stir up a hornets nest but would not national ID cards plus the company ID remove the need for individual airport IDs. (I'm completely ambivalent about National ID cards)
We already have national IDs - they're called passports. We also have flight crew licences issued by the government and BAA IDs from other airports... Why would a national ID card be any more acceptable to the security Nazis?

[NWT]

The terrorist have already won.....look at the expense and hassle everyone who works at or flies from an airport has to deal with. We all know it is nothing more than a farce, looks good to the general public, but to anyone who knows an airport there are more 'holes' than the public would care to know.(apart from the ones in the perimeter fences) Having worked at a major airport where I had to be escorted by a full passport holder to the security pass issuing office, because it was airside, passed through security check/farce, go to office, get issued with pass, come back out through said security, into jo public area, walk downstairs and out on the airside/ramp area with one very un-interested 'security guard' giving the pass a quick cursory glance, no swipe, no check of bag i was carrying etc. etc...Seems to me they should spend some more time and effort securing the perimeter fences etc. As others have said, get to the security, if your pass is rejected, go away, call ops, let the company sort it out. I had to do this at MAN once, (having been through on several occasions with no problems) phoned ops, told them the problems, went and had lunch while they had the hassle sorting it out. Eventually got the call, went back to security who now waved me through...result, very nice leisurely lunch, one plane parked at a gate for any extra 2 hours, much to the annoyance of the airport authorities, and I have no doubt words said by company to MAN airport.......sure it will happen again though..

[Donkey497]

One thing that puzzles me, is how did the treehuggers manage to cut the fence & get themselves all comfy without any of them being shot?

Let me guess, despite the armed plods wandering the terminal, they don't do perimeter patrols and knock off when it gets dark. just so that they're noce & fresh in the morning to back up the macdonalds rejects barking at you to take your belts, shoes, watches, glasses, false legs, artificial noses & wigs off.

I really must stop taking the cynical pills

[Fizix]

Why wouldn't you go through security earlier in "civvies", then change into uniform in the appropriate company lounge and finally proceed to the gate to be allowed on board "earlier" as if you were infirm, disabled or elderly? Plenty of time to check the paperwork, gauges and get on with the real business.

PS All you'll need is a boarding pass, issued by your own employer for SEATS 0A and 0F

[tflier]

one European company I worked for last year printed their own I'd passes, and very smart they looked to. They worked worldwide from Oz to the UK. Still have it! Made a mockery of everything!

[cessna24]

I was on shift the morning it happened. I never went over to look cause i did not want to give the protesters the satisfaction of a crowd. But what does annoy me is the constant hassel when going through sercurity. We as engineers and pilots have the most access to the aircraft and yet it seems we are the ones that get penalised for our jobs. They study your lunch box, touch you up as though you are joe average. If the CAA trusts us with aircraft while do we have to prove it to security personnel. I understand that we need ID to access and thats not a problem but when half the way down the road, potentially dangerous people are maybe putting peoples lives at risk, where are the sercuity guards. Maybe BAA you need to let us engineers and pilots do our jobs and get the so called security to start doing theres!! Securing the airfield, not stopping us licenced personnel from getting on the airfield. Next time ill just go the way the portesters went, seems an easier way of getting on the airfield!!

[Whalerider]

National ID cards - didn't stop the Red Army Faction in Germany

didn't stop the train bombers in Madrid.

Enough is enough - I need to get out of the looney bin that is aviation security.
Hence I am one of several I know who are retiring early - PLEASE - LET ME OUT OF HERE ! The lunatics are running the asylum !

:confused::{:8:sad::(:mad::}

[The Real Slim Shady]

It begs the question "What is the security in place to secure or protect?"

Is it the aircrew? In that case causing us stress and / or difficulty in completing, or even starting, or assigned task is an abject failure on the part of the DfT.

Is it the aircraft? We are responsible for the physical security of the aircraft: we have to secure the aircraft when we leave it. I don't see the airport providing security staff for that. Even if the aircraft is on the ramp we can't leave it with the steps attached, doors open because it is "unsecure". So if the ramp and airside is an insecure area why are we checked and subjected to search and confiscation every day?

Is it the passenger? What are the securing them from? Is it us? Then it raises another query in that WE are responsible for the safety of the occupants as soon as they board.

The whole thing is a can of worms and persecuting aircrew is an easy abdication of responsibility for security.

[scousegit]

Slim Shady, you questions a good one of which originally I'm sure their was a very valid answer. However over time the plot has been lost and security nowadays is there to protect the employment of the people who failed miserably to get any stars in Micky D's.

It has nothing to do with security now and everything to do with money and a business plan. Thats from the top to the bottom. It really is a golden moneyspinner, fed on fear and devised to make the general public "think" they're safe. A window dressing exercise comes to mind.

The escapade at STN this week just highlights how ineffective these security people (I use the word in its broadest possible terms and really mean muppets) can secure anything.

I pass through their banal routine daily and quite often travel round to other airports, the standards are totally different depending on where you go but at STN they excel in making it as miserable process as possible.

Many things are secure, prisons, government installations, military enclosures including bases etc and all of them survive on one basic requirement. To look at the fence and make sure nobody gets in OR out! This is done by patrolling said perimeter fences and being observent. Not sat on you arse gassing about who did what to whom last night or moaning about other collegues (see above)/ managers/passengers/staff/money or anything else this sad and miserable bunch find to whinge about whilst frisking you. For every checkpoint/scanner there are normally at least x6 security staff whinging, why not kick x4 outside to go for a little walk around the fence (thats 4 from EVERY checkpoint) and we'd probably have a more secure enviroment. Their would certainly be a lot less whinging in earshot of anyone and think of the health benefits to the staff. Good employers should always think of the health of there staff :ok:

Of course its cold out there, dark too. Do what us engineers do. Invest in warm thermals, warm clothing, wooly hats and gloves and move about. Gets the blood circulating and gets you warm. Ok, Its not as nice as being in a nice warm terminal giving all and sundry crap but if you don't like it................... jog off to Burger King! :ugh:

If we must be saddled with these muppets in their ever increasing number at least make them perform a task they're capable of, (ie.walking with your eyes open?) and let the rest of us get on with our jobs albeit flying or fixing the multi million pound machines to allow our ever adoring public to travel safely and without the worry that the pilot or engineers been given so much aggro getting into work his mind is distracted to the point where safety could be compromised.

Thats all we ask isn't it???

And just what is security in place to secure or protect anyway ????????

[BALLSOUT]

As to the proteters incident, surley if the head of security had any balls he would have just thrown a cordon arround these people and let the airlines get on flyng. From where they seem to have been, I can't see how this would be a problem. A case of another manager unable to manage me thinks!

[Litebulbs]

The best bit is that the protesters do not have to hold an ID card but we will!

Having said that, at least they had the balls to carry out some form of action, to raise the profile of what they believe in. More than could be said for most of the people who post on here!

[Herod]

Five years ago I had to move job from Stansted to Gatwick. I had been a holder of an official (first military and then civilian) pass since 1964. Since I was no longer Stansted based I had to surrender the pass. Despite Gatwick being operated by the same people (BAA), I still had to apply for and submit to the full CRB security check. Then I occassionally had reason to start my working week at Stansted. Pray, how could I do that now? Seems to me someone in the "management" thinks all movements at Stansted are Stansted-based crews, purely on day-return flights. Maybe a look out of the window at the (gasp!) foreign aircraft would give them an idea of what is happening in the real world.

(retreats back to happy retirement)

[Capot]

Ballsout

I've been wondering about that, but assumed that in some way the protestors had managed to render the airfield non-operational by creating an obstruction where none is allowed under ICAO ie CAP168.

If they were blocking a taxiway, but not infringing a take-off or kanding surface or in the strip, operations could have continued, I would have thought, although probably at a slow rate. Better than nothing, though.

The hole in the fence could have been guarded to preserve security, with the protestors contained in their pen. I would simply have left them there, incommunicado ie no press, forbidden to leave, and carried on operating until they begged to be let out one by one for food, warmth or a loo, when each one would have been taken to one of a variety of different places within 15 miles or so and left there. But then I don't run an airport any more.

Above all else I would not have called the Police, and it was that which probably resulted in airport closure as their bovine, instant and unnecessary reaction to the problem..

What are the facts of the matter? Anyone really know, please?

It's the same management that failed to keep LGW open today, of course, with what by any standard was a huge cock-up.

[Sallyann1234]

From where they seem to have been, I can't see how this would be a problem.
The protesters brought in some large metal fence panels. These might have caused a problem for the ILS - not something that can be risked. I suspect they were well informed on this and came suitably equipped.

[Capot]

These might have caused a problem for the ILS

True, if in certain places on the airfield relative to either the localiser or the glide slope antenna; I wonder if they were in one of those places.

A suspect ILS indication should still not have totally stopped operations; especially departures, although it could have been restricting and slowed things up.

[Capt Wannabe]

Sorry to jump on those people who are suggesting this was brought on by the issues at STN earlier this week, but the notice was actually communicated to airlines on 27 Nov.

The actual directive is quite clear and it does not state the ID must be issued by BAA, only that it is a valid ID issued either by the aerodrome or by another competent body authorised to issue passes.

A pilot's licence or boarding card should not be used to gain access to the RZ when the holder is on duty.

All seems pretty reasonable to me :hmm:

Now - as for car-parking and the 36hr limit - that's a whole other issue :ugh::ugh:

[Aldente]

"Sorry to jump on those people who are suggesting this was brought on by the issues at STN earlier this week, but the notice was actually communicated to airlines on 27 Nov."



Despite this, the mighty and highly organised personnel department of one of Europe's largest airlines (consisting of a young bloke at Stansted called Tom !), only saw fit to tell us of these changes, via a memo issued on 10th December , with a deadline to submit applications and 5 year employment historys etc by Friday 12th.

Another classic bit of totally inept FR managment !!!

[bushbolox]

It was all probably precipitated by RYR having avoided getting passes for years. Using Random crews on licences, not applying for diddly and generally taking the piss to suit themselves.

If a robust id system had been in place for a while , ryr's operations would have been well fecked since about 2003 with their transient and licence validated foreign workforce. The caa havent the balls to stop em , maybe this will slow them down abit. Thats why they delayed telling you so its your problem not theirs and they can **** you some more. Your call to join them...reap what you sow. Does anyone know where I can get a security clearance for Poland....no didnt think so. SO MArek have you any convictions...NO...great bring your licence your in.

Real happiness was the last time I dealt with RYR not V1 at lagos.
Personnally I like having my balls felt by anyone so Ive always enjoyed STN , buts that just me.:ok:

[The Sandman]

Sorry, but I've got to cut to the chase. The airport security industry is just that, and a parasitic industry to boot. If they are not careful they will find themselves in the predicament of the unsuccessful parasite that kills the host.

No excuse for their misplaced focus

[rubik101]

The BAA has been taking lessons!
Total Security is provided by building your vulnerable facility in the middle of nowhere, putting a high chain-link fence around it and guarding the entrance gate with a bunch of brainless muppets.
This is the set-up as seen in countless films featuring such stars as Steven Segal, Jean Claude Van Damm and Sly Stallone. The facility generally houses lots of highly flammable, even explosive units along with lots of scurrying, terrified and screaming prisoners.
Now, if I was in charge of something like a group of airports for instance, this is exactly the way I would go about it and then I would get my friend Alan, who used to be a screen writer before he joined Group 4, to be head of security.
Is the job vacant do you think?

[ve3id]

instead of ranting here, why don't you petition the PM to create standards across the UK? At least he won't be sitting there happy as Larry wondering why the air transport system is breaking down!

You can do it electronically here:

http://www.number10.gov.uk/communicate/e-petitions

[kaikohe76]

I thought that Pilots anyway in the UK had a union, what are those at 81 New Road doing to sort out this mess.
UK airports appear to becomming the same as in the USA, to best be avoided if at all possible.

[sky9]

Capt Wanabee The actual directive is quite clear and it does not state the ID must be issued by BAA, only that it is a valid ID issued either by the aerodrome or by another competent body authorised to issue passes.

Surely all airlines in the UK have airport passes for their aircrew at their main operating bases.... don't they? If not it is clearly an issue with the airline concerned and nothing to do with the BAA or security. Is someone trying to save costs by getting round the system?

[Apollo 100]

The other day I was positioning through LTN in uniform. I had a ticket so went thro security with pax. Was told by a security staff member to remove my company ID pass. I asked why and was told that it was a security risk to have "passengers" wearing ID tags. I didnt even bother to answer.:mad:

[Rainboe]

It is a strict BAA requirement that ID passes must not be on show when going through security as a passenger, and infringement can result in total confiscation of the pass! Ignorance is no excuse- even though you may never have seen any such rule elsewhere if you were non-BAA!

I wear mine on a lanyard with the pass in a shirt pocket. One of the muppets said 'what is in your pocket?' because the beeper kept going off. I pulled out the ID card and said 'ID'. He then started to object saying 'you must not wear an ID card!' I tried to say as patiently as possible I wasn't and it was he who insisted I get it out! Best talk to them very slowly and quietly, and not use big words!

BALPA is as powerless as we are. Believe me, they have tried raising the problem everywhere! It has to be accepted that with every incident, a response by the politicians has to be demonstrated. It is far easier to make visible and obvious 'improvements' in security to the relatively few crew rather than to the great mass of people who pass thrugh security. The politicians and civil servants then have a tick in the box of 'adequate response given?' What is going on in this newly created security empire/monster transcends even BALPA. Actually it also transcends even the CAA. It goes right up to the minister and DfT, and whilst 'incidents' are continually occuring, the last thing they will do is backpeddle on security in any way. The ongoing risk of an obligatory resignation will stop them easing off security requirements in any way. While nutters drive into terminals and idiots attack airports, we are stuck with this other bunch of idiots and incompetents called 'security' and the 'BAA'!

The one way we can control this is henceforth, any aeroplane with a politician on board will mysteriously not depart UK shores until they remove their useless carcase. It is the only thing that will get them listening and doing something. Nothing else will work! With the enormous breaks they have, they are seasoned travellers. Spoil that and we will get them listening.

[ShortfinalFred]

Guys,Girls, the U.K. is a busted flush in every way. As others have said, the "security" monster that rules working pilot's lives is devised not to protect US, but to protect the sorry ass of the politicians who want to be seen to be "taking appropriate measures", even if they are wholly cosmetic measures rather than truly effective ones.

Lets face it, if there were effective measures in place then the airport "invasion" at STN could never have happened, right!?

In a wider sense, this country is morally and practically bankrupt - look at the Pound for confirmation of the latter. Its time to leave again, which is the end result of every long spell of Labour Government we have ever had.

Finding a better destination in a world in trouble is, I admit, a challenge, but its out there and worth looking for.

Happy Frisking for all meanwhile!

[Apollo 100]

Thanks for the info! I was not aware of that policy even though I have positioned through BAA airports many times! It does seem more than a bit strange though and I cannot really see any logic behind it. Its not as if I am trying to bypass any of the security checking arrangements with my pass. I am simply wearing it. Soon it will be illegal to wear the uniform too, we will have to get changed on the flight deck :ugh:

[Xeque]

The key to stopping this insanity was mentioned in a post on Page 1. (Sorry - have been away from an internet link for several days so I'm playing catchup)
Make sure that you and your crew have turned up on time and in all respects ready to fly. When the 'security' neanderthal stops you for some petty infringement like a ID/Sec Pass issued for some other BAA airport then simply call your operations centre, tell them the story and take the boys and girls back to the hotel (or nearest Starbucks) to wait whilst your employer sorts it out.
Nothing like having a gate blocked by a crewless aircraft to catch the airport operators attention.
You all know how the system works - use it against them!

[skeletor]

STN Security declares war on pilots

They've caught up with every other airport in the (un)civilised world then! :ugh:

[captjns]

Very well said Xeque...

My SOP when I get stone walled by security, or the ground handling agent is to call company, explain the situation at hand in front of the individual that is the cause of the problem. I tell the appropriate party at my company to ring me when the problem is solved, since certain decisions that have to be made must be done so by those above my pay grade. Then I take my crew for coffee and await further instructions.

Its just not wortg the angst in going head to head with some of these wannabe leaders.

[racedo]

When I think people getting onto an airport via the fences I think of Colombo Bandaranaike airport attack.

[fullyspooled]

I can understand the frustration of crews having to put up with the "numptiness" of many so called security regulations, and security jobsworths, but the best way to approach the problem is not through complaining (it has done nothing to date), but rather we should beat them at their own game - especially when it comes to ID passes for those who work in the field of corporate aviation.

Many of us don't have, and like me don't know where to go to obtain a "Crew ID" that seems to be required at so many airports nowadays. I'm not even sure that such a thing exists, but on so many occassions we are asked to produce one.

An American freelancer I recently used showed me a trick that works well at all airports, and for us at least the problem has been resolved.

The solution: A VERY professional looking card, one that he made on his computer, and had encased in hard plastic! It features only TRUTHFULL infomation which includes name, dob, licence number, aircraft reg, company name, expiry date and airport base, plus a load of nonsense bull**** including a bar code that means nothing at all (I'm using the price tag for a packet of crisps on mine!).

On the first day I flew with him to Germany I, with my licence and passport, was not permitted to return airside to fly the the plane I had landed an hour or so earlier. He, on the otherhand, with his home made ID was waved straight through! It took me 30 mins of arguing before I was permitted back to my airplane to join him.

Now, with my fancy looking ID, I can go anywhere - and on many occassions it has worked well as a substitute for my passport. It's worked at London's finest, and their worst (Stansted), and has so far been accepted everywhere throughout Europe, and with no bother whatsoever in USA.

Interestingly, at Stansted, it wasn't needed on one occassion when I had left it in the airplane. I was dircted to an airside entance that "will not require to see it!"

We all know that most of the numpties know nothing at all about the real regulations, so use your intelligence rather than vent anger. Outsmart them.....not by breaking the law in anyway, simply by showing them a card that states all of the truthful facts about you, your licences, your company and your airplane. What could be the harm in that - happy crew, happy jobswoirths!

[mona lot]

We were positioning from the UK to the Middle East. As we were on duty we tried to go through staff search as we are allowed to do. Numpty said because we were not in uniform we were not on duty and so must go through passenger search.

Back in the UK a few weeks later I saw couple of security staff going on their holidays waved straight through staff search in their shorts and flip flops, no ID to be seen!. My concern is there is no consistency.

I thought about writing to Chirp, The CAA, Balpa etc but what is the point?:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[merlinxx]

A BIZAV Aircew ID is available through your national BIZAV association. These are issued as an IBAC standard and are fully ICAO recommendation compliant. Check with the EBAA or NBAA. In the UK check with BBGA @ www.bbga.aero.:ok:

[Airbus Girl]

This whole system is a farce.
I am based at a London airport. I have an ID from them which is valid. However, if you don't fly from that airport for one month the pass becomes "parked". This means it doesn't swipe and you basically can't use it at that airport. I presume this is an additional security "feature" to prevent stolen passes being used.
The interesting thing is that mine has been parked for many many months and yet I am still able to use the same pass at every other airport in the UK without a problem - they just give it a cursory glance and off I go. I wonder if security staff ever get to see what properly issued passes actually look like anyway?
So...I had to fly, on duty, but not in uniform, as a passenger on another airlines flight recently. Our crew room is airside. I went to the security point but they refused to let me through because my pass had been "parked".
So I went round to passenger security, showed them my boarding pass, then proceeded to the crew room.

The only way this will get resolved is for a politician to want to get involved with it. Then someone could instigate a UK National Airport Security Pass which actually involved proper checks on everybody that works at airports.

There would be a swipe system in place and a pin code for the various keypads at airports around the country. New codes would be promulgated regularly to airside pass holders email addresses or via their employer.

That way I wouldn't get stuck on an aircraft post-ferrying, at a UK airport where you have to swipe your pass to get out of the airbridge - what happens if the agent goes and you don't have a local pass? You can't get off!

I think everyone should have a thorough background check initially, prior to the pass being issued. No exceptions. Not even for foreign workers!!!

And don't even get me started on report times!!!! Report times should be increased by at least 15 minutes due to the security regulations we now have.

[ExSp33db1rd]

fullyspooled

........A VERY professional looking card, one that he made on his computer.......


A million years ago, before 9/11, when crew I.D. cards were first invented, one of my crew reproduced his, with a picture of his dog instead of his own. Took a long time before a slightly less dim security guard than all the rest noticed, and that was when he was flying longhaul with BOAC around the worlds' airports.

I made my own many years ago, having retired and occasionally needing 'photo ID' for various reasons not associated with airports, works all the time - didn't even have a computer then, photo-copiers are fun, too !

"Security" is only to hassle the innocent, the real bad guys know how to circumvent it anyway - like I need a passing 5 year old to light my 'childproof' cigarette lighter when I need the barbecue !

[18-Wheeler]

Just had a thought - Since it's been shown that the security chimps do not follow the rules consistantly, might it be worth finding out their names and if they try to board any flights deny them passage, as they are obviously a security risk?
Two can play at their silly game ...

[Romeo India Xray]

LGW has been a bad one for me in this respect. Was flying back home on an ID ticket in order to facilitate getting through LGW security, with the intention of doing a CAA observation of one of our crews (I had just come from a meeting with the UK CAA). Came to check-in and was told "flight full - go away" (or about the same number of words with same effect). I suggested I would be taking the jumpseat however the not-so-young lady informed me that even off duty company employees are not allowed on the jumpseat. I assured her in no uncertain terms that CAA inspectors ARE allowed on the jumpseat, and I was happy to call an inspector of the UK CAA to explain things to her as slowly as was necessary - magically a boarding pass was produced!

Next at security, I got the no wearing of pass thing (even though it was just on a lanyard and stuffed into my shirt pocket at the time). I explained that it is a requirement that passes are worn when on duty and I most certainly was on duty. According to this McD reject I was not on duty becasue I was not in uniform. :ugh: I was now intent on fighting the principle of the thing (in lieu of removing said pass and stuffing it in my flight bag). I offered to make the call to our CAA who would be happy to call the UK CAA who I am sure would be happy to call the airport manager in order to inform him that an inspector was being obstructed in the line of his duty. A rejected 1 star McD burger flipper then came over and whispered a word or two to the first one. Nothing more said.

I really do sympathise with you guys who have to go through this discrimination on a daily basis.

RIX

[Airbus Unplugged]

In the name of all that is holy, if you come from the Planet Belgrano Perrrrrleasee get the message across to the mandarins.

Airport security is out of control. In 5 years of persecuting crews, UK policy has failed to avert an attack at Glasgow, a Greenies protest at Hounslow Municipal, and a more sinister one at Stanport Airstead.

They have however amde a lot of mischief with plastic bags, and stopped a lot of shampoo.

[Mowgli]

CHIRPS has plenty of reports about security "hassling" pilots who then feel their ability to operate the aircraft safely has been compromised. I have experienced this myself. I try not to be affected by the "challenges" we sometimes get from security going "airside", but when you are held up while your colleague has been allowed through (because of inconsistency) safety is compromised (our procedures are based on a 2 crew concept in the flightdeck).

Presumably this has been "risk assessed" by our policy makers. I think not.

Sadly, a major accident involving loss of life, attributable in part to the issue being discussed here, may bring about a change for the better. What a tragic assessment of the state of our "system". :ugh:

[captjns]

There are some 8 terminals at JFK... Some terminals have more than one TSA check point... and guess what... they all have their own rules and regulations... even within the same teriminal.... you konw... "The World According to Garp". It even gets better... there is never a supervisor, that's supposed to be on duty, when issues arise... go figure?!?!:ugh:

[StudentInDebt]

According the the feedback we're receiving, security related MORs are not being accepted by the CAA as they don't meet the MOR reporting criteria. Explains their comment in the recent CHIRP that they don't think there is a problem :ugh:

[chuks]

Somehow I think the CAA might be on the same planet as these security people.

I had a visit to the Belgrano where I needed to see someone about a licencing matter. I had gone to Licencing but it turned out that I needed Policy, over Licencing in the grand order of things.

All that was allowed was to talk to the Policy bod on an internal telephone line. To be allowed into their inner sanctum and be seated across from them was simply not on offer. It had been acceptable for me to travel all the way to CAA headquarters but I was not going to make it that extra 500 metres to their office, no. That said a lot to me about how we aviation professionals are treated by a prime service provider.

It is not a wild jump of the imagination from that to being harrassed by numpties at security checkpoints with absolutely no credit being given for showing, say, a licence or a logbook. I can see a point in this; you might have people who are so dull they just cannot tell the difference between a terrorist and a common or garden variety aviation professional so that they have to zero in on me as having something exceptional in my baggage such as epaulettes and a noise-cancelling headset with spare batteries.

You stand there patiently watching them run the stuff back and forth through the X-ray machine, peering intently at the image on the screen, when you would expect some procedure where they just ask, "Are you a pilot? Can you show me your licence and logbook?" say. That is clearly far too much to expect from people with no "people skills".

[Flintstone]

Funny how with all their resources the big airports can continue to get it so horribly wrong yet I have never had an issue in seven years of using Farnborough.

Yes, I know it's a smaller airport with lighter traffic but they also have fewer staff. They're always polite, efficient and friendly and I've yet to see them upset anyone be they passengers or crew. BAA and their lobotomised minions could learn a lesson there.

[Romeo India Xray]

At the meeting to which I alluded earlier in this thread, I learnt a lot about the UK CAA. When I was a pilot under their systems, they were nigh on the enemy.

Now as an expat Brit I was back there talking with my oposite number. I found out that in many respects they are the ones stuck between a rock and a hard place. When I go to work I have the relatively simple task of implementing JAR/EU FCL/OPS etc, as I interpret them and exercising due diligence. For us, we a small unit with a relatively simplistic structure and a "get it done" philosophy. Our flight crews can come in and have a chat any time, get advice in person etc.

The UK CAA has to deal with varying reporting lines through an organisation and political framework that is probably bigger than the whole civil service here! I came away from that meeting feeling pretty sorry for them (as much as I thought it would be impossible to feel sorry for the CAA).

I suspect that in the UK, any real change in the "security" situation would have to come from the Dft, and while there are politicians looking for votes how likely is that to happen?

The only route to a resolution of this madness is if politicians feel it on the votes balance sheet. The only way to make that happen is by a concerted effort to cause disruption to the travelling public. Our problem is that we are professionals and this goes against our very fabric. Maybe prune should have a thread dedicated to thinking of ways to bring an end to the farsical elements of crew security.

RIX

[ExSp33db1rd]

cptjns


......There are some 8 terminals at JFK......


Similar at LAX too, different rules for pax. re. x-ray and locked bags (or it was last time I flew out ) how the f**k are we supposed to know?

And I suppose every crook in the US has a key to one of those special TSA locks ? So easy to put a bomb in a bag for them, but yes, I did pack it myelf, thank you.

What a farce. ( UK word ? " absurd and pointless proceedings " )

[fireflybob]

Coming back to the Stansted protesters and their funding here is an interesting article in today's Mail:-

Lush or not (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1094368/The-innocent-looking-body-cream-hides-sinister-secret---financing-anarchists.html)

[doubleu-anker]

Romeo India Xray

A good point at the end of your last post. I have been thinking along those lines for a while now.

The only real way to change this madness is for crews to play these mindless morons at their own stupid game.

One would need to very careful but is there a way where your licence or ID card could become "contaminated" and the items be removed from you, therefore rendering you unable to go to work? Must be enough brains on here to think of something that is purely innocent. It would have to be attempted en mass of course.

It may sound unprofessional but I feel this is a safety issue that needs to be addressed before someone gets hurt. Crews have caused disruption over pay issues in the past, so why not on matters of safety?

[Mister Geezer]

If you have any issue with security at any BAA airport then pass it on to CHIRP and they can add it to their ever growing list of security grievances at BAA airports. All credit to CHIRP since they seem to be slowly chipping away at this issue but their case can only be strengthened if you pass on your problems onto them. The uniform application of security procedures is piecemeal and non consistent at BAA airports and something needs to be done!

[spannersatKL]

Surely it the ultimate sanction at election time.....its around the corner remember....and its votes that count......how about a few large posters in say Lackey jackies (Home Office) and 'Buff' Hoon's (Transport) constituiencies and around the airports explaining the position? Taking up Billboard space can't be that expensive for a few unions to organise? Oh forgot they aren't on the side of the workers who pay their wages are they, but in the pockets of government.....roll on April 1st national no pass day!!

[Romeo India Xray]

One would need to very careful but is there a way where your licence or ID card could become "contaminated" and the items be removed from you, therefore rendering you unable to go to work?

Anthrax might work, but I would not recommend it!

I was thinking more along the lines of a safety audit whereby an indipendent safety observer views what crews have to go through and then appraises if this will have an effect on their stress levels. Post an outside observer at crew security stations and you will soon see securiy personnel pulling their socks up. If a crew is subjected to excessive stress through inconsistent rules and their aplication then the observer simply has the authority to refuse the crew permission to operate the flight.

This person should be someone with extensive industry knowledge (probably as a former/retired pilot), and enough in-depth knowledge of human factors to assess that a safety issue may result due to the stress created, then simply prevent the crew from operating the flight. There would be monumental changes in "security" and the way it is applied.

RIX

[Kempus]

I'm a non baa pass holder and so cannot work out my base edi until I get a pass however I can work out of stn until 01/09! If i'm positioning however I need a ticket! Missed 2 flights due to that!

Oh and yesterday I walked into a full blown argument between 2 security staff at vp9 about breaks whilst I waited!

The only consistancy about baa security is the inconsistancy! :ugh:

[RAT 5]

Why not just get a ticket and go through with pax? Ah? That would entail a 30 minute wait in the queue. You could queue jump in uniform, but then again no. "You'll have to go through crew control if in uniform. More than my job's worth etc. etc." But I'm not on duty, I'm positioning as pax and I have to travel in uniform, and I have a ticket. And if I wait in this queue I'll miss my flight and therefore the one I'm supposed to operate. The flight will be canelled, I'll not get paid and my company and I will sue you for loss of revenue & income.
I thought the politicians wanted to be at the centre of Europe. If they ground the a/c they will definately stay on the edge. The buck stops with the Minister of Transport, who-ever that is. The first time his flight is delayed or cancleed, things will change. Why not find out when they are flying and walk off in protest due to stress.
The protesters should be air crew, pilots and C/A's. They should be camped outside Parliament. If they are not prepared to fight for their right to work un harrassed, but accept that some whacky group of other protesters can distrupt their everyday lives, unjustifiably, then the world will implode quicker than expected. The best form of defence is sometimes attack.

Good luck from outside UK, thank God. Everyday something new confirms the reason I left.

[Romeo India Xray]

The buck stops with the Minister of Transport, who-ever that is. The first time his flight is delayed or cancleed, things will change. Why not find out when they are flying and walk off in protest due to stress.

Wrong. The first time his AC is delayed due to crew walking off due stress, a few phone calls will be made, stopping with the CEO/AM of the company, and you will be invited in for tea and biccies (P45 in the post).

How about, when you are positioning through STN, if possible, make sure that your ID is in your car at your base airport. Also make sure the only clothing you have is what you are wearing, your uniform. Next, you will be denied through both PAX and staff channels. Consequence, you call your company, but you were boarding with only 20 mins to spare and have now missed your flight.

I know this wouldn't work for everyone, but there have been 2 or 3 times for me this year when I could have pulled this stunt. It certainly would be likely to get attention!

RIX

[Airbus Girl]

I have been through a few airports this week.

Here is the "standard security check" items I've endured:-

1. Jacket off, shoes off, computers out of bags, liquids out of bags, plus a body scan.
2. None of the above.
3. Jacket on, shoes on, computers out, liquids out, UMBRELLAS out (I kid you not - where the f*ck does it mention THAT in the security details?)

It drives you mad doesn't it?

[ExSp33db1rd]

Why not just get a ticket and go through with pax? Ah?

Guess that's OK if you travel on your 'own' airline, but I was once denied boarding by another carrier when trying to make a quick connection immediately after operating in to that airport, because .. " passengers would think I was crew and would look to me for assisitance in an emergency, and I hadn't passed the relevant SEP exams for that aircraft .. " !! pre - 9/11, too.

[draughtsman99]

I agree that arguing with the Scottish food company rejects is mainly a waste of ones energy
Tiny point of information from Scotland.
McD only sounds Scottish - the are very USA and very litiginous.
Back to topic!
As a pax I can only say I feel for you guys and am happy to join any campaign you devise. (most Pax are on your side).

[captplaystation]

Us healthy living Scots wouldn't be seen dead eating such fatty greasy unhealthy food :yuk::rolleyes:;):=

[Mercenary Pilot]

Strange, I didn't know the words 'battered' and 'Mars bar'* were used in the same the same sentence until I visited Scotland. ;)

I can't remember the last time I've had to go through screening at STN but to be honest it doesn't sound any better or worse then the "security" at any other airport I've had the displeasure to encounter in the UK.

Somehow I think the CAA might be on the same planet as these security people. I think anyone who reads CHIRP's quarterly publication would agree with that. The CAA don't want us to file ASR's unless safety is DIRECTLY compromised (i.e. there is an actual incident)!

So I guess all of our years of professional experience, Human Factors training about breaking the error chain and using an open reporting system to target potentially fatal flaws in an operation/regulation count for absolutely nothing? :ugh:


*Disclaimer: This word can be changed for any other food stuff when north of the Border.

[whitenoiz]

The suggestion that a few senior front bench MPs and Ministers should be delayed deliberately is interesting; unfortunately these guys have there own private airline and airports its called the RAF (used to be 32sqdn) and the airports are RAF Northolt or Brize Norton. You dont seriously think they would consider joining the Human Race and flying Commercial do you...:rolleyes:

[mona lot]

Just a hypothetical situation of course;

Suppose you were checking in for a flight and you thought you smelt alcohol on the breath of one of the SS. Would that mean all the crew/passengers they had checked in would need to be re-screened in case anything had been missed? Would a thorough search of the airport be required? Imagine the chaos!

[Crromwellman]

As an ex-Army Security Officer, I was always told that "Security Must Make Sense" - in some places it clearly doesn't and there is a total lack of consistency which irks everyone.
Making and airport/airfield 100% secure is impossible unless you applied methods so draconian that no-one would fly. Although following the recent incursion at STN perhaps some armed patrols on the perimeter could focus protesting minds. It would probably be more use for the MP5 toting members of Essex's Finest than posing in the terminal. I wonder what their rules of engagement are? I certainly don't want to be in a crowded Terminal when large quantities of 9mm ammunition start flying around to stop some gunman/bomber. I believe its called collateral damage!!
My own experience with STN, as SLF I add, was that my wife's handbag was searched and x-rayed four times because she was carrying both her and my spare sets of spectacles. She was not allowed to open the cases or the handbag (presumably more than their job was worth). On arrival at our destination, she wanted a cigarette. On opening her handbag she pulled out a box of Swan Vestas matches. These have been classified as DAC since Pontius was a student pilot.
If security made sense and operated on the KISS principle instead of maximum embuggerance, perhaps it would be more effective!!

[beerdrinker]

Perhaps the way to bring this to the attention of the politicians is to do what our Ozzie friends did a few years ago when they had a problem and that was to refuse boarding to a politician. (I can't remember what excuse the Oz captains used but I seem to remember that it was effective)

[Aerospace_Line]

Hi Friends,

does anyone know if the 1/1/09 date has been postponed?
I still have a Landside pass w my crew licence and I'll be in STN just for the 1st of January.

In the case it'll be in force already, do you know what's the way to go airside? Have I to ask for a boarding card at check in and pass through the pax channel??
In this case I don't know if they allow me to pass with 2 trolley as I used to do when passing thorough the crew channel...

Thanks a lot! Happy Christmas!

[RVF750]

I thought BAA rules were that non BAA home airport, or other pass holders needed to bring a copy of their roster with them to prove they were on company business to get in? At least that's how it was notified to us by our company?

On a side note, I went through EXT the other day, in smart civies but on duty with my pas on my lanyard, and I was "processed" by a young lady who really puts the rest of the industry to shame. Even her supervisor admitted that.

Polite, courteous and friendly, she made the whole experience of getting half undressed, jumping the hoops and putting my stuff back into a recognisable form a pleasure, nearly.

If only the rest could be given a fraction of her customer service skills, we'd all have an easier time of it.

As to bumping politicians off the plane? It'll only end in tears, not to be recommended. Now bumping them off while they're ON the plane....that's an idea!

[Rainboe]

They don't use the RAF to take their families away during their EXTENSIVE Parliamentary breaks or to commute down to London during 'term time', which isn't very big. Obviously one can't eject them from the aircraft or deny boarding, but once they are on board, if it was common knowledge that no aeroplane with any of our marvellously politicians will actually move because of unserviceabilities (they all have them) whilst their backsides remain in a seat on that aeroplane, they might start getting the picture and prick up their obnoxious ears to the problem! It is the only way to get through to them. It is the only solution that will work, and one that I would happily apply in a co-ordinated campaign. It would not take long.