What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??

[anotherthing]

The NATS Pension thread has been one of the most subscribed-to threads in ATC issues, but is now dying a natural death.

Putting aside cries of 'Vote Yes' or 'Vote No', what do you think is in store for NATS in the near future? Below are my predictions, starting with my predicted vote result...


Prediction 1.

'The Vote'

62% Yes
38% No

Prediction 2.

Swiftly followed by a complete shafting on the annual pay award (I reckon 3% - which would be less than RPI)...

Prediction 3.

3-5% overall reduction in NATS staff by Jul 09.

Prediction 4.

Departure of Mr Barron within 18 months of changing the pension scheme.

Prediction 5.

Break up and shelving of some NSL contracts within 60 months of pension scheme change.

You heard it here first...

[mr.777]

Firstly, good idea to start a new thread...the other was getting a bit stagnant, there's only so many times you can say "Vote No/Yes" !

I agree with nearly all your predictions, although I think that the pension vote will be more like 55/45, no idea which way its going to swing.

Also, I think if we get a payrise of 1.5% ( a flat 1.5%, not RPI + 1.5%), then we'll be doing "well", particularly as several members of management have mooted a pay freeze and the Union aren't exactly refuting this.

I'd like to know timescales involved if it turns into a "NO" vote...

[AFFLECK]

Anotherthing - Don't forget there are 3 ballots going on, we could have a situation with a 62/38 Yes vote, but the proposal still fails.

In fact, if every one just votes randomly for Yes or No, there is only a 1 in 8 chance of passing the proposal.

My prediction would be 55/45 No vote, but i'm sure at least one of the ballots will produce a No vote (probably the ATCO branch). :)

[anotherthing]

Dee Mac wrote:

Any cuts in jobs etc after that will be blamed on ATCOs due to their refusal to accept the proposals on offer.


This is a rumours site after all so I'd like to throw this in for all the non ATCOs here who will believe any possible management guff thats states job losses are due (in part or wholly) to ATCOs not accepting the proposals.

There is a very strong rumour, that at this point in time, regardless of the outcome of the proposals, there is an exercise taking place within NATS to see where savings through job cuts can be achieved.

Any job cuts that may or may not happen are totally seperate from the pensions issue.

Affleck

I understand the mechanics of the ballot, I stand by my predictions. That number is stated will be the overall vote, as for how it breaks down into the different groups, I am not sure. I think the ATCO vote will be very close either way, the other 2 will be a solid 'NO'

[Radarspod]

Dee Mac,

I don't think management can in all reality put other groups on the new arrangements and keep the ATCOs on the current. The proposal is for all NATS employees, so no matter how invincible you think you are if you wear a headset, it goes through for all or it goes through for none.

IMHO, if the ATCO branch of prospect tries to do its own thing, then don't expect to see support forthcoming ever again from ATSS or PCS colleagues next time management try to chip away at your ATCO related Ts & Cs.

Anothering - predictions look about right, although I reckon the overall vote will be much closer. With regard to prediction 3, I reckon that's very likely - the bar stool session yesterday at CTC covered downturn and NATS "coping with the loss of renevue" until things pick up again - losing staff is probably one of the most likely ways and I think was infered to in the Q & A session at the end.

Best keep my Starbucks breaks to a minimum, make sure some of the other dross at CTC gets canned :}

Just wondering how the other two will be a solid "No" with ATCO branch being close, yet still end up with a 62/38 yes/no split, unless ATCO branch numbers are hugely dominant? Ears on the ground in ATSS branch suggests majority yes.

RS

[mr.777]

Best keep my Starbucks breaks to a minimum, make sure some of the other dross at CTC gets canned

Don't worry RS, they'll still need somebody to manage/preside over photo of the day! (said with tongue firmly in cheek, before all of CTC has a pop at me)

I agree that there's no way that they'll have the ATCOs on a separate scheme and everybody else on the SMART one...alhough they'd probably quite like that...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary and any way they can promote a division between us and you is only going to benefit them in the long run.

Interesting you mention job losses. As much as I don't want ANYBODY to lose their job, I can't believe the penny has only just dropped with regards to this. This must surely have been coming for a while, or perhaps its only people below management pay grade that have ANY idea what's going on.

[Radarspod]

Excellent idea - finally I get the power to ban the Rusty Chains! :E

[ZOOKER]

1. Barron in.
2. Lots of people recruited to do noddy jobs on pay well below ATCOs et al.
3. Pensions vote.
4. Noddies vote 'yes'.
5 The Downturn.
6. Noddies made redundant.
7. ATCOs, ATSAs and ATEs shafted.
8. Barron out.
=RESULT

[Dee Mac]

Radarspod, fair enough I was trying to stir things up a bit with that suggestion. Interesting times ahead. I sincerely hope no-one loses their job.

[Vote NO]

If the vote is yes, I predict NSL will be sold off and our Pension will be reduced to 50% final salary scheme, as opposed to the 66% which it is now.

If the vote is NO, I predict NATS management will come back with another offer, perhaps cap at RPI + 1%, then NSL may be sold off. Any attempt to reduce to 50% will be met with strike action:eek:

VN :ok:( for the benefit of RS :))

[Radarspod]

Vote No,

With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.:confused:

Putting VOTE NO in really big letters is IMHO voting propaganda I'd prefer left in the pension forum. :ooh:

Then again, this is PPRUNE and everyone has a right to post what they like.......I'll go back to my latte. :}


RS

[Radarspod]

...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary

I haven't actually heard that before (although someone probably mentioned in one of the 1800+ posts in the pension forum). Where has that come from? I assume that it's because he can't really make changes or reduce numbers that easily to meet profit targets, etc., and ATCOs cost so much to be trained.

Happy to be enlightened,


RS

[Vote NO]

Radarspod


Vote No,

With all due respect, this thread is "What happens within NATS after the pension results are in??" and thus assumes people have made up their mind and voted, and would like to discuss what is going to happen.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

Would you mind keeping your "vote no" propaganda in the pension thread, a number of us have voted and moved on.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

RS


Glad you have moved on:E

Firstly ,what has
Quote:
...Barron's apparent disgust for ATCOs is legendary
I haven't actually heard that before (although someone probably mentioned in one of the 1800+ posts in the pension forum). Where has that come from? I assume that it's because he can't really make changes or reduce numbers that easily to meet profit targets, etc., and ATCOs cost so much to be trained.

Happy to be enlightened,


RS
got to do with this thread?

Secondly

If you use a little of your limited imagination you will realise I have not used any "vote no" propaganda.
I merely used my forum "name" after my prediction!
Unless of course I can't comment on here because of my forum name :)
If it will help, I will abbreviate my name as you have done.

VN :ok:

point taken I hope ? :)

[Radarspod]

Annoyingly, yes :ok:

Although I would still like to know the answer to my last question, even if it is thread creep - after all, we don't have a "Baron ATCO hating" thread running to ask it in.

[PeltonLevel]

If the vote is YES, then Barron can go to the next board meeting and be congratulated.
If the vote is NO, then Barron can go to the next board meeting and ask for guidance. I can't see that the Airline Group will accept the role of enthusiastic lobbyists for pass-through of a more expensive pension scheme, but those of you who are closer to these things (i.e. further away from Starbucks) may have evidence to the contrary.

[Vote NO]

Merry XMAS RS :)

VN

[Radarspod]

So this time staying on thread :E...

FYI, the question was asked again yesterday at the CTC bar stool session about what happens in a NO vote - Mr B stated he didn't know and nor did the NTUS - should be interesting what happens next.

Question for debate - ignore PCS for a moment - what does Prospect as a union do if (a plausible scenario) the ATCO branch is NO and ATSS branch is YES. What does this mean for next step? If it comes to industrial action road does Prospect decide as a union the action for all NATS members regardless of branch - surely that would be in internal conflict of interest? Never got involved with union stuff in depth to know the answer - anyone care to suggest?

RS

[landedoutagain]

my plausible solution... If ATSS vote yes, then the whole thing might only need a tweak, perhaps RPI +1% pensionable (or max payrise will be RPI +1%), limit cap to 10 years, improve the protection for those employees post PPP and write in 'if we wish to sell NSL off during the 10 / 15 years, you will all get a large bung'.

That to me doesnt seem like a too big a step...

LOA


ps they could sort out banding too!!! :}

[Mr A Tis]

Well, the weak knee ATCOs could get up of their bums, stop pontificating on Pprune & do something.
I can't remember in over 35 years when they have ever stood up to Management. Meanwhile the French ATCOs strike almost every Easter, the Spaniards have their share & the Greek ATCOs are on the verge of a walk out now.
It's very sad, but these days if you really want to keep something you have to stand up & fight for it.
If you want a zero pay rise, a shafted pension , & poorer conditions then just carry on as you are now. The RB has very successfully managed the unions expectations, they now expect nowt-so won't be disappointed.

[mr.777]

Agree A Tis 100%. And my point re Barron's attitude towards ATCOs is that it is well known that he would love to get rid of each and every one of us as we cost the company so much money....one slight problem, as much as he would like to think otherwise, NATS is still in the business of providing ATC.

[anotherthing]

RS


Mr Barron has openly stated that he believes ATCOs are overpaid by about 20% (I think that's the figure he stated).

Furthermore, about 14 months ago he made a very disparaging set of remarks about ATCOs during a speech he made to a bunch of Private Flyers. The transcript of which was obtainable at the time.

That's by the by though. He can think what he wants... He doesn't really know what ATCOs, or ATSAs or ATCEs do, nor the support staff at CTC, though is probably more in tune with them.
He knows in principle, but he has never actually shadowed them properly for any length of time, and to be fair, he doesn't need to, he is intetrested in NATS as a business, he doesn't really care about what the workforce do. As far as he or any head of a major business is concerned, the product could be anything, the principle of running the business remains the same - cut costs, increase productivity to be very simplistic about it.

Yes he attends ANSP meetings in Europe etc, but he does that as a business man with a view to building partnerships etc- he doesn't understand the nitty gritty of our business and the day he tries to interfere with it is the day he should leave - that's why he has amanagement team (several layers of in fact).

landedoutagain

The possibility of raising the cap to RPI+1% is feasible I suppose. However we have been told that it is the actuaries that insist on a 15 year review period as that is what is needed for them to work their figures. If ther review period is reduced, then it indicates to me that someone is telling porkies.

I fully understand why management would claim they can only afford RPI+0.5%, because it is their job to try to give away as little as possible. The 15 year period however is totaly different.

Anyways, its the closing of the fund to newcomers that is the biggest issue that people seem to have papered over. Once that happens, if the vote is yes, the pension fund as we know it for current memebers will die.

And I agree with Mr A Tis - I think that we could be led down th eroad of pay freezes etc - though the least we should ever accept is RPI, otherwise we are accepting a degradation in living conditions.

[mr.777]

Anotherthing,

I'd be quite interested in reading that transcript if you can point me in the right direction (yes, I know its off topic but lighten up guys...its Xmas after all:))

[anotherthing]

Mr777

it was floating around at the time, paper copy, not sure of any interweb link

[Gonzo]

I think I had a few exchanges of email after that speech with Mr. B., can't really remember what it consisted of though.

[Ben Doonigan]

My prediction .....

PCS vote yes 60/40
ATCEs vote split 50/50
ATCOs branch vote no 60/40

overall numbers 55/45 yes vote
management press on with changes
much grumbling but no immediate action
reduction of extra duties, ojti, aavas
morale down resentment up

more militant new blood voted into ATCOs branch
annual pay negotiations become less working together and more them+us
worldwide ATCOs shortage starts to drive demands for higher pay
union less willing to accept lower paydeals (to compensate for pension loss)
yearly disputes over pay become commonplace

Current state of worldwide ATCO recruitment. (http://www.atm-insight.com/paan8.html)

[Ben Doonigan]

I believe it was a speech to the Aviation Club (October 2006?) and in it he criticised ATCOs for being loyal to their licence and not the company ! :ugh: Can't find it anywhere .... keep googling ....

Here is one of his speeches on SES (http://www.nats.co.uk/uploads/ETF%20July%2007%20(final).doc). Anything in that to worry you ?

Not only does Mr B have a chip on his shoulder about how much ATCOs earn, but the pension briefings gave me the feeling that the Prospect and PCS officers do too. :rolleyes:

[MrJones]

Yep, I think whatever the outcome of the ballot Management will impose the changes. Let us not forget it is just part of the legally required consultation.

And if they get away with filleting the Pension Scheme they'll be absolutely no stopping them.

Anyone who thinks Management have No Plan B is soft in the head.

[mr.777]

I read that particular speech....what a load of cr*p. He comes across as being on some sort of half-arsed crusade to save the aviation world.:ugh:

[viaEGLL]

A quote from Mr B.!
"I was brought into NATS specifically for my experience of bringing about change. In my view, change is easier when the employees can see a burning platform or they realise the business is broken, but this is a very difficult concept in our industry where nothing is broken or burning."

Mr B is trying very hard with our pension to make the company look broken!
The pension issue is now burning too!
I think he has now found the solution to a difficult concept in our industry.

Lots of Love and Christmas Greetings

MR. B.
XXXXXXX

[ATSA1]

From that speech about SES, where he quotes (wrongly) Emerson Fittipaldi (actually it was Gilles Villeneuve) " If everything feels in control, then you are not driving fast enough"...would he say, "If the staff aren't bleating, then you are not screwing them enough!"

[throw a dyce]

Interesting reading the links about PB speech.His company Alstom was under investigation for killing 15 people,and injuring 28 in 2003 when a walkway gave way on the construction site for the QM2.I note that he said nothing about that one in his little talk.At least I,as an overpaid parasite ATCO hasn't KILLED anyone.
PB if you are an engineer,then my late granny was a cowboy.I studied engineering and you certainly couldn't hold any spanner anywhere anytime.Spiv boy yes,chop up companies and pensions yes,engineer bl:mad:dy disgrace.

[fisbangwollop]

In the past the ATSA grade have had the balls to strike......16 weeks in all...!!! I fear our ATCO's do not have those same balls....shame really!! Just look at all the money grabbers doing AVA's....it is these folk that in the end have shated us all and will always be willing to do the same!!!!:(

[Gonzo]

Fisbang, you might want to retract that last bit, we ATCOs have many and varied reasons for doing AAVAs, just as my colleagues have many and varied reasons for doing VAPs and overtime.

[ZOOKER]

I have a copy of the speech to The Aviation Club. (I have just read the SES speech too).
In the Aviation Club speech we learn that "NATS is now run by businessmen. not Air Traffic Controllers"
(Businessmen have just f***ed up the world's financial system).
We are also informed that "ENVIRONMENT is the next big challenge".
Sorry was that Alstom or Aston (a green machine).
Gonzo, I suspect the main reason ATCOs do AAVAs is greed, The same greed that has f***ed up the world's financial system. Alternatively it's the fact that they cannot afford to live in 'Rip Off Britain'.
Remember 'Rip Off Britain', - and that song......"Things Can Only Get Better"
D-REAM was it, mmm, Marvellous!
And who does the song remind us of?
And who did he appoint to shaft your pensions?

[mr.777]

Thanks for that little snippet Zooker. Maybe NATS should be run by ATCOs, they couldn't do a worse job than the so called "businessmen" who have landed us in this sh*t state of affairs.

Fishbang, ATCOs doing AAVAs are NOT the reason we are about to lose our pension. If only it were that simple...

[Radarspod]

NATS run by ATCOs? We couldn't afford the management wage bill :E

[mr.777]

Maybe I should re-phrase that to read "run by ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs"....that should keep most of us happy:ok:

[Me Me Me Me]

There is a very strong rumour, that at this point in time, regardless of the outcome of the proposals, there is an exercise taking place within NATS to see where savings through job cuts can be achieved.

Any job cuts that may or may not happen are totally seperate from the pensions issue.


This isn't a strong rumour surely... It's fact. We, along with everyone else, are facing a significant downturn in income. In that climate, any company would be looking to tighten its belt. Staff costs are a huge part of that. Same thing happened post Sept. 11th.

[Me Me Me Me]

Maybe I should re-phrase that to read "run by ATCOs/ATSAs/ATCEs"....that should keep most of us happy

I look forward to reading the first set of ATCO/ATSA/ATCE-generated Regulatory Accounts.

:hmm:

[mr.777]

FFS, get a sense of humour mate :ugh:

[anotherthing]

Ben Doonigan

Some strange things stated by Mr Barron on the 'Current state of ATCO recruitment' page that you linked to…

Meanwhile UK service provider NATS introduced a different approach to staff retention. Paul Barron’s appointment as CEO four years ago, brought with it sweeping changes within the company. “We were losing good controllers abroad, moral was low, there was a strong attachment to the profession but not to the company,”Does he honestly think that morale has increased during his tenure? I can honestly state that on the operational side, people are more disenchanted with NATS than ever before.

…he says. “We had a mountain to climb in terms of change and getting the controllers to feel like they belong to the company”. NATS began an open dialogue - that’ll be destinations and Vision 2011 – didn't exactly engage the operational staff with its staff to spread core values of trust, what trust – it has been eroded, not improved, loyalty even more staff are now looking to move elsewhere, the pension was the one thing that stopped many from going abroad, recognition, leadership, communication and sharing success. Internal websites, extensive training programmes and transparency across the business are among the new business practices.that'll be recognition through the money wasting dinners and ceremonies that the elite few get inivted to...

“We are closing two centres from four, we are moving 2,500 people around the country. If you want to tackle a pension scheme that is the most generous in country, but our customers cannot afford it; and you want to agree three year flat pay deals 3 Year pay deals – I hope the union realises this is against our interests. , you have to have good relationship – not evident amongst operational staff, I’m afraid, and explain why it is in the company’s long term interest.By trying to bully through a course of action, perchance?

Mr Barron seems to have done the exact opposite with his operational staff. The trust has gone, the loyalty to the company is waning – more people are talking of moving on if the pension is changed.
I’m afraid Mr Barron does not seem to be in touch with his common worker.


Mr Barron is proud of Alstom and his achievements there (breaking it up, selling part, closing the pension). Mr Barron has been brought into NATS to do the same as he did with Alstom - and it looks like we are going to let him :ugh:

[mr.777]

:D:D:D:D Great post. Maybe he is referring to CTC workers in that little snippet because, as you correctly point out, its certainly not the ATCOs or ATSAs he is talking about....most of whom cannot WAIT to see the back of him and his blog.

[mr.777]

how would you know that unless you read his blog or someone told you !

There's only so many ways you can keep yourself amused on a night shift :}

[ProM]

Are NATS having some company Christmas dinners at all?

Take bad morale,
fold in divisions between sites and trades
stir in 3 measures of loss of trust
Whisk with stress about pensions
Add a dash of rumours
Bake until a vote pops out

Et voila

(serve and retire to a safe distance, best accompanied by riot police to break up the fight)

[anotherthing]

ProM for Morale Manager (NATS)!!

He's tried a couple of times to inject some humour into what have been fairly heavy and downbeat posts. Not got much response, but he still tries. More power to your elbow, Sir!!

Worthy of a new management post surely - it would do more good for the workforce than some of the money frittering we have witnessed!!

As for reading His blogs - the headlines that flash up on the intranet are enough to get a gist of his latest exploits.. I admit, I started off reading them, but when I realised they were as much about his personal life as his business life, I quickly got turned off.

Note to intranet team - can everyone be allocated some bandwidth to present their own blogs, if they so wish, or is the CEO deemed more important in this company than the support staff, the ATCEs, the ATSAs and the ATCOs?


Continuing the Conversation - An ATCOs Blog - Wed 10th Dec


Got out of bed about 10am as I’m a lazy ATCO who finished work at 2300 the night before. Walked the dog - thank God he didn’t pee on the kitchen floor just because I got up so late - good boy!

Came home and switched on the telly. Fixed myself a cheese and ham toastie and was just settling down to watch Homes Under The Hammer (HUTH) when the door bell rang. Bloody typical.


It was Szymon, the local Polish immigrant asking for the keys to my Porsche so he could clean the interior. (I like to give back to the community by giving those less well off the chance to earn some extra pocket money - Szymon is an ATCO at Farnborough). Note to self - must contact HR to see if I can pay him through this Give As you earn scheme - could save myself 27p.

Slipped him a fiver (cash in hand) - I usually give him six quid for two hours work, but times are tight and he does use my water. Arranged a time with him for his younger, attractive sister Ludmila to come round. She is always keen to earn a little extra cash - being a charitable chap, I try to oblige when I can.

Sat back down and the toastie was cold... I’d also missed the first house auction on HUTH - thank goodness for Sky+.

Jumped into the shower then got into my work clothes. Ripped jeans, trainers and a ketchup stained T-shirt with the legend ‘Viagra is for Pussies’ emblazoned on the chest. Apart from some controlling today, I only have one meeting with SRG so that will be fine - I’m sure Mr Tring will appreciate it.

Drove to work, but was 10 minutes late as every other bugger was trying to get through the one and only entrance at the same time.

Casually sauntered into the Ops room as I finished a call on my mobile and gave the off going watch some verbal abuse. As is usual with operational staff, I plonked my feet on the console then discussed with my mates what we would get up to this weekend. As I’ve said, times are tight so we might only hit Spearmint Rhino’s twice this week.

I diligently kept an eye out for any aircraft appearing on radar as I chatted. Who dare says Luton Approach is not worthy of Band 5 pay?

Finished the shift - no Airpoxes!! Winner.
Yet again I have fulfilled one of the old Destinations without even trying. However, I really need to practice my avoiding action so I might engineer a couple of situations tomorrow. The Management can do it so why can’t I?
I admit I won’t arrange anything as drastic as having an aircraft plummet off radar, but no one would be that stupid, would they???

Had to record Strictly today as I was on the afternoon shift so I had that to look forward to when I finished.

Got home, cracked open a tin of Fosters (I can’t afford Stella anymore - I’m putting money aside to supplement my future pension).

Switched on the 65” plasma which made the dog take a few paces back - he still gets caught out by the heat the damned thing generates - stupid animal, I might get a cat when he dies.

Really don’t know who is going to win this year but as far as my vote is concerned, I’d give Suzanne one.

Switched off the telly and took the dog out for his final ablutions of the day. Couldn’t be bothered to walk far so just let him cock his leg up the neighbours door (he works at CTC and has a fixation with rusty chains and Starbucks).

That’ll teach him to vote ‘YES’.

Day off tomorrow before my morning spins. Will need to start the all-day session early so I can get sozzled and finish drinking by 2200; Hopefully followed by a visit from the lovely Ludmila. Note to self - keep a couple of quid by, just in case.


A good day today - I LOVE NATS. Don’t forget - PINK ELEPHANTS

[mr.777]

Funny as f***....I will email HR when I go back to work and demand that your blog is a permanent fixture on NATSNet. Have you thought about barstool sessions? Maybe you could do the first one in Barron's office?

[eastern wiseguy]

Will Barron resign if it is a no vote?

Seems to me that reducing pension costs and getting the company(s) ready for sale(asset stripping if you prefer) is one of the principal reasons for his being employed.

Will he fall on his (no doubt golden) sword?

[Ballstroker]

If you want to tackle a pension scheme that is the most generous in country,

That's bollocks and he knows it. It is amongst the best in the country currently open to all employees in that company, but it is far from being the best.

Many of the city banks have better schemes. MPs have a better scheme. Many senior executive only schemes in larger companies have are more generous - I'd wager that he was once a member of one of these at Alsthom.

[Vote NO]

Continuing the Conversation - An ATCOs Blog - Wed 10th Dec



Nice one mate :ok:

ps

give us more of what actually goes on in the ops room:mad::mad::mad: :D

[rua]

all these job cuts being mentioned are they controllers, assistants, at the college or CTC?

[Radarspod]

Anotherthing - Superb! Can't wait till the next instalment! :}

[Lon More]

Could someone post a link to the ATCO's blog please

[PPRuNe Radar]

A timely reminder is maybe needed that we shouldn't get personal about an individual (or individuals) on PPRuNe.

That doesn't mean you can't attack their arguments and their stances, or even mention them by name if in the public domain, but let's try not to be insulting or derogatory just for the sake of it.

[alfie1999]

Has the 2% public sector pay cap been lifted?

[two pints]

Another thing... you've made my night shift!:ok:

more of the same please, about time we had some good humour to lighten the grim days ahead! All this doom and gloom is getting far too depressing.

[ayrprox]

another thing:
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
you sir, are a comedy genius!

[Loki]

Probably the best thing since "Not Airway" circa 1988.

Trouble is we shan`t have the comedy spectacle of the Watch Manager shredding all the copies he could lay his hands on (and breaking the shredder by not removing the staples) whilst someone else was producing copies just as quickly on the photocopier....using the WM`s code.

[anotherthing]

There's a few paper copies:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3102288431_d6b780a5a3.jpg

floating round the TC Ops room, unless they have been removed by the fun police...

Flickr Photo Download: Blog1 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/33299001@N03/3102288431/sizes/l/)

[privatesandwiches]

thas a nats award right there..... an add on to vision 2011.... bugger liberating and inspiring people, you sir should be nominated for company morale officer.
You can warm up the crowd before mr barron performs his spinning plates act also known as a bar stool session and then cheer us up after that.

One question, do you do watch Xmas parties?

[max1]

What's Ludmillas' phone number?

[Ali Bongo]

Genius stuff :D

[anotherthing]

This is a bit off topic, but I thought that whilst we are whingeing about pensions or pay and conditions (and I am one of those whingers), it was worth taking stock of what we have and count ourselves lucky.

To that end I'd like to bring your attention the following which is running on the military forum.
In short it's about a guy who at 23 has been given a year to live due cancer - this after he had sucessfully beaten it as a kid and after numerous operations.

Instead of giving up, he is doing a coast to coast walk to raise money for his hospice - his initial target has been smashed and he is now trying to reach £40k.

Try to donate something, or if you can't, at the very least give up a little bit of your time to read about him - it really does knock pension caps or scheme closures into touch.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/353753-shameless-promotion-gordon-buckleys-son-tom.html

to donate or just to read his daily walk diary:

Justgiving - Making a molehill out of some mountains (http://www.justgiving.com/thebuckers)

Donating takes 2 minutes if you are not already registered with 'Just Giving', less if you are - and if you are a UK resident you can stick 2 fingers up at HMRC by selecting Gift Aid to stop HMG from taking tax - a good reason to donate in itself :ok:

[General_Kirby]

Very sobering, a timely reminder there are far more important things to worry about than pensions etc. Thanks for bringing it to our attention on this thread.

[NIFTY SO AND SO]

Have received ZILCH ballot paper on the issue from my union.

WHERE is my ballot paper PCS?

Funny ol' fing, can't vote (NOOOOOOOOO!) without one.

NIFTY

[Radarspod]

So it's a YES on all 3 ballots then.

So what happens now? :confused:

RS

[anotherthing]

So what happens now? http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

The pension changes happen.

Management will play hard ball on the pay talks (we've asked for Aug RPI+1%) - expect rumours of a pay freeze.

Expect further cuts in Ts & Cs

At least 5% staff cuts over next 6 to 18 months

NSL will undergo some changes...

Mr Barron will leave with a nice golden handshake within 18 months.

New joiners will be on a different pension scheme - which is the biggest issue by the way - and this 2 tier scheme will be used in the medium to long term future to cause more rifts in the workforce.

Expect NATS to come cap in hand well before the 15 year period is up, claiming they can't afford the pension...

Money will continue to be wasted on lavish awards ceremonies/projects/new management posts that duplicate work already being carried out

[Vote NO]

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii270/mkalert/Turkey.jpg

Picture says it all ..........Merry Xmas :eek:

[biddedout]

There is much talk of a sell off of part of the group, but is anyone considering how difficult that might be without full cooperation and agreement of the Pension schem trustees and the Regulator (particularly if the PPF is also involved). Trustees are duty bound to do a covenant assesment of any potential new employer and if they are not satisfied then it will not be that easy to just spin off part of a company attached to a FS pension scheme, particularly if it is still open to further accrual (certainly not without some firm and potentially very expensve guarantees or even a buyout).

[anotherthing]

Biddedout

there are many ways for NATS to release itself from some of the 'burden' that is NSL - the simplest is to just not bother tendering for contracts when they come up for renewal.

[anotherthing]

I'm all for us keeping NSL as it is...

But I can't reconcile the fact that on the one hand we are being told we need to tighten our belts, yet on the other we will bid for contracts in such a manner that we know they will make us a loss...

doesn't make sense to me, looking at it from a very simplistic profit/loss point of view

[ProM]

Another thing.

It can depend on what you mean by loss making - whether you include fixed costs or not

Say you have 10 airport contracts all alike. Costs £100m a year to run each airport, plus it costs £150m to run the central office, HR etc. the central office functions are fixed overheads - they cost the same whether you run 8 airports or 12

So the total costs of the company are £1,150m. So the break even price for running each airport is £115m. Lets say they all airports are currently contracted at £120m a year, i.e. total revene is £1200m, a profit of £50m

If one comes up for renewal and you bid at £110m that is technically loss making when you consider fixed overheads. But the company overall makes a profit of £40m if you win at that 'loss-making' price, but uf you withdraw from the contract the company profit would only be £30m off £1080m revenue.

Thats the first explanation, others reasons involve price of money (i.e. interest rates), strategic importance, leverage on other contracts etc

[biddedout]

Anotherthing.

Good point, not closely involved, so I hadn't thought of that. Another reason for very close scutiny of the books and business plans I guess.

[RPIplus1]

RPI in August was 4.8%

RPI plus 1% is, I hear, the opening gambit...

what next?

[mr.777]

My money is on RPI -4.8%....

[porra]

Someone didn't read the "thread titles" thread...:=

[Gonzo]

The contracts were not tendered for by NATS on the basis of them being loss-making. Now they've learned their lesson, I don't think NSL will bid for any more contracts at the same level.

[kinglouis]

Dubai or Abu Dhabi anyone???

Maybe we could charter a swanky Emirates A380 and fill it full of top notch UK ATCO's to go and enjoy sunnier climes.....

My loyalty to NATS from here on in is gone. if its about the cash and a cushy life, the wife and I are off. Im sure any ATCO's from NATS will be relatively sought after considering the amount of traffic, minimal space and mix of traffic etc etc....

Until then my friends, the next time I come out of a sector and am asked by some management monkey to go straight into another without my sky sports watching 30 minute break..... the answer is NO. I love my job and the people I work with, thanks for screwing the morale permanetly and making me not enjoy going to work, Mrs Louis is going to love my grumpy arse now :ok:

I will see how that land lies in the next few weeks but am considering slowly withdrawing my extra VOLUNTARY duties me thinks.

KL

[mr.777]

I can see it now. NATS gets the tender for DXB, and CTC moves to....the Burj Al Arab.

[Gonzo]

Yahoo, I'm told that you refer to me by name in a post above, and that apparently you've done so before when referring to my Christmas headset

Would you mind refraining from doing so in future please? Granted, my identity is well known amongst my colleagues, nevertheless I believe it is poor etiquette, especially given that I don't know who you are.

Thank you.

[anotherthing]

The dramatic climbdown has already begun - brace yourselfs.

From the Pensions Ballot Result circular:


Pay 2009

You will be aware that the NTUS submitted a core claim in September 2008 which included a claim for an overal increase for all staff of RPI+1%. We met with NATS on the 18th December 2008 where Management outlibned the difficult economic climate that currently surrounds us. Needless to say there is a significant gap between our positions. Our objective is to conclude negotiations as soon as possible in the New Year. Further meetings have been scheduled for Jan and Feb.

This is shaping up to be a difficult negotiation as we seek to protect and enhance members' standard of living. We will update you as soon as we are in a position to do so.


Not a very robust stance to take from the outset - expect a poor pay award.

Also, am I alone in thinking that it is a little bit out of order that we were balloted on the Pension proposals when the MOU has not even been agreed yet? We have now accepted the changes - the MOU could now be written to give us yet another shafting, especially as management will harp on about the downturn in the economy, despite our money spining transatlantic flights actually growing in number...

[mr.777]

Anotherthing,

Thank you for the pay update. At my briefing we were told by Prospect that if we voted the pension proposals in, we stood a great chance of getting a good pay rise.....pay rise, my arse. I have abso-f***ing-lutely had it now with Prospect pussying out over everything at the first sign of management playing their hand. FFS, grow some balls, we don't pay you £15 a month to sit there and take it up the a*** from Barron and his cronies. WE WANT ACTION...NOW. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[rab-k]

mr. 777.

Sadly, I couldn't agree with you more.

I have thought long and hard about taking my £.pcm subs and shoving them elsewhere - TGWU or similar, just in case I end up in an office for an interview 'without coffee' and am requiring of back up from the employee's rights POV.

Prospect, I'm afraid, now has zero credibility with me, the rot probably setting in back in the days of "keeping our powder dry" with PPP. My previous TU, (NALGO, Unison as now), had a far stronger stomach for a fight where member's interests were concerned, and we only need look across the Channel to see how our continental colleagues deal with matters concerning terms and conditions.

I'll confess here and now that I didn't vote. Why? Because I favoured a third option which was not offered. I realised that the status-quo was not an option, but what was on offer came nowhere close to the minimum I would have expected or accepted. That makes me one of the 580+ of the roughly 2000 members who chose not to vote. (I hear some had no opportunity to express their preferred choice, but that's another matter).

Prospect will continue to receive my subs however, for the time being at least, as I can't bring myself to accept whatever pay settlement is reached on the basis of a 'free ride' on the back of the subs of my colleagues.

However, I can no longer consider myself to be a part of this TU and will therefore no longer take part in any way, shape or form, in the actions of it. My subs cover the expenses incurred by those who act for the ATCO branch as a whole in the pay round, as willingly or otherwise I fall within the overall settlement.

But thats it; all correspondence marked 'Prospect' now goes for recycling - unopened. Meetings will go unattended. Voice, for what its worth, will go unheard.

So long as my annual pay increase outstrips my annual subs, Prospect can have them. In all other aspects, I quit...

[The Many Tentacles]

What are one's options regarding other unions? I'd like something as a back up just in case something goes wrong down the line, but are other unions recognized by management with regards to negotiation

Prospect have done nothing for me since I joined other than to send me a pretty unreadable magazine every month and now they've done nothing for me again. I don't want to give them any money, but I feel there may not be an option if I want certain certain aspects of their protection that I may not be able to get anywhere else.

[mr.777]

Food for thought...been reading the "Dubai/UAE" thread. They have just had a payrise and are now on 51500Dhs per month. That equates to just under £10k PER MONTH. Somebody tell me that I have read/calculated it wrong, please!

[marble bar]

RAB-K
Why not just go onto the union website and stop delivery of the quality magazine and bask in the warm glow of saving the planet.

[Geffen]

Rumour has it that NATS don't think throwing money at ATCO's is a way of retaining their services! Now if the going rate abroad is pushing £10K PCM then NATS need to seriously start looking at salaries and the effect it will have on people.

[mr.777]

My point exactly. After yet another shafting, £10k per month tax free sounds damn good to me.....

[goldfrog]

My point exactly. After yet another shafting, £10k per month tax free sounds damn good to me.....

You will be off then?

[mr.777]

No, but I can see a fair few others going....and good luck to them too.

[Defruiter]

(Is anyone else unable to access the last page of the other pensions thread? Wont load for me...)

[The Many Tentacles]

(Is anyone else unable to access the last page of the other pensions thread? Wont load for me...)

Wouldn't me for earlier either, has the NATS pension saga broken Prune:confused:

[landedoutagain]

slight thread creep, but my sleuthing skills lead me to believe that the last post on the broken thread was by vote no, and had some strange web link ( i didnt look just in case!). its post 4603171...

Vote NO, apologies in advance if i am wrong and there was a later post that i have missed!!

:)

[Vote NO]

:O

Do I get some sort of award ? :E :D :D

http://ac4.yt-thm-a04.yimg.com/image/bdcf3f8b5ea983d6"For services rendered to the vote NO propaganda community, and persistent dissagreement wth BDiONU" http://static.pprune.org/images/icons/mpangel.gif

The battle was lost, but not the War :ok:

[BDiONU]

:O Do I get some sort of award ? :E :D:D

Yeah, you broke the internet :}

BD

[Vote NO]

Merry XMAS BD :)


http://webdeveloper.com/animations/holiday/christmas/gifs/merry_christmas_4.gif

[Me Me Me Me]

What are one's options regarding other unions? I'd like something as a back up just in case something goes wrong down the line, but are other unions recognized by management with regards to negotiation

Prospect and PCS are the only unions officially recognised by NATS. You can join other unions, but they will have absolutely no negotiating power... So it would be pointless.

Thank you for the pay update. At my briefing we were told by Prospect that if we voted the pension proposals in, we stood a great chance of getting a good pay rise.....pay rise, my arse. I have abso-f***ing-lutely had it now with Prospect pussying out over everything at the first sign of management playing their hand. FFS, grow some balls, we don't pay you £15 a month to sit there and take it up the a*** from Barron and his cronies. WE WANT ACTION...NOW.

May I suggest you stand for election as a rep, or resign as a member. In other words: put up or shut up. Not that I disagree with your sentiment... but being Mr Angry Keyboard Warrior isn't going to change anything.

[mr.777]

I wasn't being Mr Angry Keyboard Warrior...I believe it was Mr Drunk Keyboard Warrior :}

On a serious note, why should I have to put up or shut up? I pay good money to Prospect to represent my interests, and they aren't exactly setting the world alight at the moment IMHO. AS if the pension fiasco wasn't bad enough we now get this cop out statement regarding the pay talks. Incidentally, at my pension briefing the Union said that they WOULD be prepared to take action over the issue of the pay deal.... I don't believe that for one second.

As regards standing for Union rep...we have 2 more-than-capable new guys who have just taken over the positions on our watch, and who I believe will hopefully represent our interests splendidly.

[choclit runway]

Mr 777,

I am sorry but if you are talking about 'take home' you are talking bo"@ocks old son. If you are talking total package (housing, travel, allowances, medical etc), it has exceeded your quoted amount for some time.

No where close to that take-home even if rumoured 10% increase goes through. Check your Dubai sources.

That said, can't speak for the centre in A.D!

Hope you are proved right though...:ok:

CR.

[Me Me Me Me]

It's all about having confidence in the reps. I think members often forget these are mostly people holding down a day job too. They get no reward for standing up and taking the responsibility on. They take all the abuse for free... The full-time paid union guys... that's different. Throw what you like at them, cause that's their job :ok:

I do think the pay deal will be a tough one. I, personally, am not willing to accept a real-terms pay cut. So it has to be at least RPI. But what RPI?

It was at NATS request that the August RPI figure was the one used each year to base the pay deal on. Since August RPI was the absolute top and it's fallen consistently ever since, I would bet NATS will now want to back-peddle on that one and claim it's unfair to expect a rise in January - as we head in to a year that could see inflation plummet to nothing - based on a figure taken before the bubble really burst.

I would hope the TUs tell them 'tough, you wanted it, you now have to stick to it'. but after the pensions debacle I have less confidence in the ability of the TUs to stand up to management on pay. They have become far too sympathetic to the squeeze for profit.

[choclit runway]

Mr 777,

Just seen the post you read. Total figure seems to include housing and is indeed for our A.C brethren in the capital. Check out the Abu Dhabi rents and that figure won't seem nearly as attractive! Those guys and gals need every dirham they can get!

Cheers, CR!

[mr.777]

Thank you for clearing that up...I just took the complete figure and converted it into £s....which still isn't bad I guess (not knowing anything about Dubai cost of living etc.).

Me me me me

Point taken re Union reps and having confidence in them. As for the pay talks I think we really need to push for at least RPI now as an absolute minimum. Bank of England expect inflation to drop to 1% next year and possibly below so if we are to get anything tangible in monetary terms out of this deal it needs to be based on the August figures for this year. Thoughts on another 3 year deal?? I say no...what does anyone else think?

The management may well turn round and say that the economic climate has changed but they'll just have to suck it up as we have had to do with the pension.

[privatesandwiches]

Bugger all pay rise offered.... i hate to say it, but we all told you so. As soon as that pension deal got shoe horned in we were screwed.
Are the uion going to get a spine ever?
If NATS want August RPI as the deal then they can lump it, they must be loaded by now!!!! Saying that, i'm sure prospect have already offered out the KY, paid for by our monthly subscriptions.
That union statement is the same as the pension, setting us up with a nice, soflty written, times are hard statement so when we get done over with a 2% rise (if we are lucky) they can say they 'communicated' it from the start and the final blow of a crap deal may not be so bad, hell, they probably let NATS management write the damn thing.
Come on Prospect.... please dont roll over and let us ALL down.
I want a minimum of 4.5% prospect..... now go fetch!!!

[RPIplus1]

So we are told that the pension scheme is in trouble and one of the three reasons given was that long term inflation is too high...

then we will be told that the company cannot afford to give a RPI matching pay rise as the current inflation is now too low...

does anyone else see the irony?????!?



P.S.
Long term inflation figure was calculated at a snapshot point in time (the last actuarial valuation) and should perhaps never have been used as a reason for needing a change to the pension scheme.

[rumouroid]

How does everyone feel about a 3 year deal of August RPI +0.5%, underpinned at 0.5%, just in case RPI is negative anytime in the next 3 years. Starting with August 2008 RPI, so that's 5.3% in Jan 2009. I think that would be a reasonable deal that the union could honestly recommend was the best that they could achieve in these current times. I think the union have a duty and opportunity to make up some of the face that they have lost over the pension shafting, however I don't think they will ever fully recover from it.

It also gives NATS some certainty about costs going into CP3. This will enable them to negotiate with the regulator and hopefully get it right this time after the shambles of omitting full cost-pass through for our pension.

If the union manage this it's a :D from me.

[landedoutagain]

agree with rumouroid, and i think thats the least we should get given we have just bailed out mr barron to the tune of £60m-ish a year according to the pension presentations.

The last 12 months average RPI has been 4.26%, and as i've posted before, prospect seem to be negotiating about and average of 4% increases in all their other negotiations.

LOA

[anotherthing]

It will be a one year deal... and I think that's the best option in these times - management will never cough up to a 3 year deal pinned to RPI during this very temporary financial downturn, therefore we need to barter on a yearly basis, otherwise we will get shafted in the 2nd or 3rd year of a 3 year deal when inflation rises and we have no RPI locked deal....

Mr.777

Those figure do look good, until the fact that accomodation is not included is taken into account. Furthermore, when the pound regains some of its strength, those figures will look a bit worse!

Still, if you have no debts and are young enough, it's possibly worth a doing for a few years - there is going to be a shortfall of ATCOs worldwide for many years to come yet.

Update on the KY jelly stall.

Ludmila and myself have, unfortunately(:E), exhausted the stock. I am awaiting re-supply. Standby for further info.

[fisbangwollop]

One wonders now what would be happening now if we were French???? One thing for sure no aircraft would be transiting French airspace, but that said 2 months ago that would have been the case........you can say many things about the French but at least they have balls!!!!!!

[Scuzi]

One wonders now what would be happening now if we were French???? One thing for sure no aircraft would be transiting French airspace, but that said 2 months ago that would have been the case........you can say many things about the French but at least they have balls!!!!!!

You Brits have the cheek to call the French "surrender monkeys" and other such slurs when you don't have the balls to stand up for your own rights and your own benefits like they do. Sickening!

[BDiONU]

You Brits have the cheek to call the French "surrender monkeys" and other such slurs
Actually its 'cheese eating surrender monkeys'.

BD

[throw a dyce]

Well what bothers me about agreeing to the pension issue,is that Mr B will be able to do what he likes now.
Here's a new concept in NATS land.Pay cuts.There are very hard times ahead,so to keep the jobs you'll have a take a cut.Happened in Hong Kong to the ATC staff more than once.Happens outside all the time.
Will Prospect fight that prospect.Yeah right,we'll just work together and this pay cut is the best we could manage.:rolleyes:

[Infiniti80]

First, I've handed back sectors above MUR, I've handed back my LCE, I am considering giving up OJTI. I have sent a letter to Prospect resigning from the union. I cannot believe that with a properly conducted NO campaign by those I pay to represent my interests that a further 135 people would not have sucumbed to scare stories spread by management and latter day union Haw Haws. Those 135 votes would have returned a NO majority for the ATCO branch. Before the brown nosers ask, I would then be prepared to fight and keep on fighting, and stay on strike until my terms and conditions were restored.

We as a workforce deserve everything that's coming. First will be a payfreeze. Redundancies on the new reduced redundancy terms are on the way. The MACC move has problems still to be overcome, don't expect management to budge - we've shown our strength already.

Get used to seeing terms and conditions eroded. We've shown them we're more than happy to accept it. I will never slag off the French again, we've shown just exactly how little we're prepared to defend our interests.

At least I won't be paying Prospect a penny to collude with management.

Merry F*cking Christmas.

[I_Like_Blips]

Anyone know whether French controllers have won better conditions, pay, and pensions than NATS?

I thought that the NATS pension offer wouldn't have been as good without the union negotiations. I'd join tomorrow, if I wasn't already a member.

[Radarspod]

Infiniti80 - How is it that by leaving the union you are in any better position? You now have no voice, as there are no ballots or representation for non-members. Giving up sectors, LCE, etc could be seen by NATS as unnofficial industrial action and leave you severely exposed, even more so now as you've left the union! :bored: There isn't another union to go to that is recognised.......

[alfie1999]

Management would not be doing their job properly if they didn't force through a pay deal as close as possible to 'zero'.

They know that atco's quickly folded on the pension issue with the just a little scaremongering so why would they think the same staff would have any stomach for a fight over pay?

'Take 0% or you'll be threatening the future of the company and with it our jobs and pensions.'

Management should be congratulated on the way they've handled the unions and staff over the last few months, they've done a brilliant job.

[Mr A Tis]

Yes the RB & his team must be havin one hell of a Christmas party this year congratulating themselves on total control of the unions & workforce. Well done, maybe another New Years honour next year I should think.

[eglnyt]

'Take 0% or you'll be threatening the future of the company and with it our jobs and pensions.'

Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?

[rumouroid]

I know what I hope the union will do, that is get some backbone and tell management to get lost. However, having already shown their true colours during the pension proposal, I think they will recommend we accept it. We have now lost all credibility when it comes to bargaining power.
By voting Yes to the pension proposal we have invited the fox into the chicken coup and it will now begin its feast.:(

[alfie1999]

eglnyt

Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?


I'm on managements side (seriously).

It would be selfish of staff to demand any sort of pay rise that would risk future jobs and pensions. Not to mention hypocritical as the majority have already accepted the argument.



A minimum of a 3 year pay freeze all round!!! :}

[anotherthing]

Which will more likely be phrased as "we think we can avoid redundancies if you don't have a pay rise". So what do you think the union should do when that happens ?
The union is there to protect all, therefore it should aim to keep people in jobs.
However in the spirit of workng together, the union and management should sit down before any such decision is made and see if staffing numbers are realistic to carry out the tasks at a level they are currently being done.

I think they will find a few surplus staff around the bazaars that could be gotten rid of without any ill effect on the company. I include ATCOs in this statement as there are many who are doing an office job which could be fulfilled by a non ATCO at half the salary, thus allwoing the ATCO to return to the OPS environment.

There are other ATCOs around who have played the system for too long... doing made up jobs because they have been unable to validate after moving units at their own request. The company need to get some balls and bin these wasters.

This may sound harsh, but why should I take a lower pay award to keep someone in employment when they are wrongfully employed, under utilised?

Then they can talk about pay freezes etc as a cost saving.

A poor pay award is an easy and extremely lazy option. Cost saving is very laudable, but the phrase sticks in the throat when all around us we see money wasted.

I think the majority of people in this company would be a lot happier to accept little or no pay rise if they believed the company was not so wasteful.

We're in a recession but wandering round Swanwick on a night shift you see countless offices with lights left on and computers running for no reason (the NATS Corporate Security office springs to mind - unmanned yet lights blazing... I'd have though of all offices they would have been the most switched on at switching off).
We can't even sort that out, so what hope do we have of reducing wasteage elsewhere?

Also, flights overall may be down, but transatlantic flights (NATS biggest money spinner) are not.
Couple that with payment in Euros at a time when the pound is weak and I think you will be surprised at how relatively well NATS performs this quarter.
However, we will of course be subject to the usual scaremongering tactics, which the Union has already acknowledged. :ugh:

[rumouroid]

alfie 1999

Call me selfish, I want a pay rise!

anotherthing

Couldn't agree with you more, sack the wasters that don't bring home the bacon, that includes some senior managers. A junior management grade of Safety and Training Manager can also go as they are complete waste of time, the position has been made up to give someone a job that otherwise would be surplus to requirements.

It would also help if NATS stopped throwing money at wasteful projects such as iFACTS, £130 million spent so far. It was supposed to be a product that NATS could sell and make a profit from as well as increase capacity and safety. NATS have to take their head out their butt and realise that no other ANSP will want to buy it as there are many other countries with similiar systems in development that will be operational before iFACTS.
:ugh:

[anotherthing]

Don't get me started on the Safety and training Managers post.

That's 3/4 of £1000,000 you could save annually in one fell swoop. Considering each watch (on TC side, no doubt the same on AC) has a training manager and safety man (WOSM); thats triple replication of work.

Each watch should have a training manager - 1 for AC and one for TC, and a watch safety rep/manager (one of the GS's per watch do this), but to then have another 5 managers a few levels up (STM's) overseeing these people is ridiculous :ugh:

[mr.777]

Totally off topic but as its Xmas Eve and I'm several mulled wines into the festive celebrations....

Just like to say a Merry Xmas to EVERYBODY,whatever you voted! I have thoroughly enjoyed the banter on here regarding the pensions issue even if it did get a tad heated at times...and the outcome was not what I wanted:*

Nevertheless, a bit of heated debate never hurt anybody and is what PPRUNE is all about.

So, Merry Xmas to one and all, and to you all a good night! And yes, BDiONU, that EVEN includes you mate! :}

[BDiONU]

So, Merry Xmas to one and all, and to you all a good night! And yes, BDiONU, that EVEN includes you mate! :}
And a Merry Xmas and Happy New Year to you and the rest of my PPrune fan club :ok:

BD

[055166k]

Swanwick: with or without Union/Membership negotiation, cross training for AC and TC simultaneous validation has already started.
Job cuts anyone?

[NIFTY SO AND SO]

Nuff said

or would ayone like an explanation to the title?

NIF

[ATSA1]

Yes I saw Ian Hislop's excellent programme the other night on Dr Beeching, and the parallels between BR in 1963, and NATS in 2008 are chilling! Don't say that you haven't been warned!

[anotherthing]

Mr Barron, in his voice blog dated 22nd Dec states that he does not believe the company is divided and that morale levels have nothing to do with NATS and what is happening within, but is a symptom of what is happening around the country....

He also signs off by wishing employees a good Christmas and a good rest... obviously, he realises most of his operational units will be working every day doesn't he??...:ugh:

[mr.777]

I saw that too...every time I read his blog it makes me want to vomit. The bloke has no idea or just doesn't care what is happening. And why should he? He is sitting pretty now having got what he wanted, all he has to do is convince the Union now that we need a pay freeze or NATS will go under...job done.

[throw a dyce]

What's happening round the country Mr B?
Nats is divided.It's called NERL and NSL.
I am having a good rest on my rostered days off and will be working on all 4 public holidays(Scotland).
I hope his Aston ends up mangled in a ditch somewhere.:)

[anotherthing]

TAD

you have the division of NSL and NERL, but the division I was thinking of is the fact that different units are at each others throats.

What with banding, (unfounded) rumours of Swanwick voting 'yes' en masse etc, I think that the company is very divided and that these and other issues have also smashed morale. There is a level of mistrust and resentment between ATCO grades at different units which has played right into managements hands.

055166K


cross training for AC and TC simultaneous validation has already started
I think you might be being misled there. If you are alluding to a certain LAC ATCO recently promoted to GS(TC) then I think you will find that said ATCO will not be keeping his AC validation and will have to validate on a TC sector (doesn't have to be a core sector mind you, could be East or another noddy non-core sector).

This is in spite of any loud noises being made by a certain WS who not long ago arrived from windy Wales. As the saying goes, empty barrels make the most noise and this WS doesn't really have a clue, nor any management ability - but if the face fits... promote it. It's still an old boys club to a large extent.

To be fair to the promoted ATCO in question, he is keen to validate on a TC sector. It will mean giving up his AC validation however.

[Mr Red]

To add to anotherthings point, SRG have banned mixed mode operations, ie. you cannot be valid on swanwick ac electronic system and tc's manual system at the same time.

If iFACTs ever appears then those people who are valid on it to start CAN ONLY hold that validation, not even another AC validation.

[throw a dyce]

Anotherthing,
Well being out in the Ort cloud of the Nats empire,we don't really see what the Band 5s are up to.
To go back to B's blog.There is very little evidence of a credit crunch here,probably the opposite,yet unit moral isn't good.
The pension reforms wasn't really an issue here,because no matter what we think,it doesn't count.If the centres vote for changes,then it doesn't matter what we vote.
Banding.Screwed again after the last comittee came away with their finding.Don't visit the unit,disregard formula and scores that would cause anything but the status quo.Working together.:ok:Meanwhile we are just as busy as units on higher pay,with no way of getting anything better.Still at the bottom.
If people start looking at jobs elsewhere,then good for them.Nats have lost their staff loyality.At our units leaving is the only option left,because it won't get better staying.
Never mind Mr B can give the eco gas guzzler a good run up to the Kyper belt,and give us a moral boosting pep talk.You've never had it so good.:yuk:

[mr.777]

Just to be clear about the pay talks. I would gladly accept a pay freeze if it was implemented company wide. By that, I mean that EVERYBODY regardless of pay grade, contract or anything else takes it. To elaborate further still, when Barron accepts a pay freeze, then I will accept one.

If anybody thinks it is acceptable for him and the board to push for a pay freeze for us whilst they get another obscene, double figure % pay rise, then I would suggest that they either need their head testing, or are indeed management themsleves. No doubt somebody will now point out to me the error of my ways.....

[MrJones]

Management should be setting an example.

If the company is in financial trouble then how can any bonus be justified?

No one should be upgrading to a Lamborghini this year!

[eglnyt]

The CEO of the IAA is taking a 10% pay cut, if NATS is truly a world leader then it ought to do better, how about 20% for all members of the executive.

[mr.777]

Not often I agree with you eglnyt, but in this case, well said. I really do think that the majority of NATS employees would accept a pay freeze (ok, perhaps NOT gladly) if they knew that Management were getting the same...but I just do not see this happening.

[rumouroid]

I don't think the majority would accept a pay freeze whether execs got one or not. Ordinarily we would have been negotiating the pay rise towards the end of last summer/early autumn, we couldn't because of the pension proposal taking precedence. If we had been negotiating last summer/autumn we would have got around 4.5% or more based on RPI figures at the time, August is normally used and the RPI was 4.8%. Management now has the benefit of the economy being in a worse position now than last summer to try to "manage the union expectations", which they seem quite good at, and get away with a lower rise now than they would of agreed to then.
Don't let the delaying of the pay talks by the pension proposal become a double edged sword and let it reduce the pay rise we would of received.

[Geffen]

In a weird way pay cut anything less than RPI, pay freeze RPI (purely maintains standard of living and keeps salary in a static position relative to the economy) pay rise RPI plus. Pay freeze all depends on how you look at it. Obviously management would love to have no increase in the salary bill. After the pension issue I would hope goodwill would be forthcoming from management, but I doubt it.

[man friday]

I'd love to take a pay freeze to help poor nats out,

I'm sure that my utility providers would ensure that my bills do not rise during this period, perhaps the government could recognise my efforts to help nats by keeping petrol duty at the same level, and having a word with Shell to make sure their prices do not rise would be nice!.

No increase in fags or booze would also be much apreciated.and i'm sure Tesco's would do their bit to help.

After all poor old nats needs every penny it can get to make a LARGER PROFIT next year and pay its directors BIGGER BONUSES.

Who am i to be selfish and expect the FatCats to recieve a smaller bonus when i can pay for it at my and my families expense, my kids can make do with last years school shoes and uniforms, and we dont need a holiday and the wife can always pick up a few quid down the docks when a ships in!

At least then when i'm selling a kidney on ebay to top up my pension, i know i've done my bit for the company, and can sleep soundly at night!!

[landedoutagain]

While the atcos, atsa's engineers and other office staff have been maintaining and exceceding targets all year, the overall traffic levels have fallen. This must therefore be the fault of top level management, and as a direct consequence, they should be expecting a negative bonus this year!!!

[anotherthing]

Geffen

I agree with you 100%. I would hope the union likened pay awards to the RPI i.e. cost of living.

A pay award of RPI is a standard of living freeze.

Less than RPI is a cut in standard of living.

A pay award above RPI is an incresae in standard of living.

The company can bleat on all it wants that the RPI has decreased since the figure was taken last August (the figure that should be used), but they (NATS) base their charges for the year on the August RPI.

Therefore, if it is acceptable for NATS to charge its customers Aug RPI even when the RPI is now considerably lower, then it is acceptable for the employees to expect an RPI based pay award.

If NATS had the balls to turn round to its customers and say "the economy has got worse since Aug 2008, therefore we have decided that to help you, our customer, out we are going to take the unusual step of reducing our charges using an interim (say DEC 08) RPI as the new basis", then maybe NATS would have a point in saying they cannot afford an Aug RPI pay rise.

Will NATS cut costs to help its customers? Don't be silly. "In Tune With Our Customers" is a Destinations 2011 headline, but only when it suits NATS... as is "Liberating and Inspiring People" :yuk:

A few months ago when the first forays into the pay award took place in the midst of the pension 'negotiations', management offered the unions a 1.9% pay rise. The unions rejected it.

Since then:

1. Several months have passed and the economy has worsened.

2. 35% of peope did not bother voting (for whatever reason) in the pension ballot - the thing that has a bigger impact on an individuals future wealth than any other issue. This indicates, rightly or wrongly to management that the workforce are apathetic and that the workforce will accept any old crap.

3. The Union have stated in the circular the came round after the pension ballot that they accept that the company is feeling the pinch.

What does this all mean? Probably that management will try to get away with an even lower offer as the economy has slowed down further...

Stand by for a lower than Aug RPI pay award whilst NATS continues to charge its customers, several of whom have already gone bankrupt, based on the Aug RPI.

I would take a pay freeze if our senior management did (too late though - Mr Barron got his large pay rise agreed a few months before the pension cap was introduced - clever bugger)- I would be even more 'happy' to do so if NATS acknowledged the trouble our customers are having and tried to help them out a little.
Doing so would aid NATS in the long term... after all, if we help our customers now, it means there will be more of them still around to charge when the economy rallies - which it will.

But of course NATS and long term planning/thinking ahead do not go hand in hand.

Note for management lackeys:

To any management lackey out there who says it is unrealistic to expect a pay award of 4.8% (Aug RPI), because prices have gone down since then - you are talking rubbish.

The Aug RPI is used as a snapshot for annual charges. The economy fluctuates. The Aug snapshot is the one we should use for pay awards because the economy will rally and prices will increase again. A one year deal is acceptable, whilst in incertain times, but you can't have your cake and eat it.

Pay awards have always been carried out this way - do not try to move the goal posts just because it suits you.

You were happy enough to accept RPI+0.25% etc 3 year deals in the past when it suited you (i.e. when you were taking money from the pension fund and traffic levels were growing rapidly) - respect you employees and treat us fairly now!

[Ben Doonigan]

Will NATS cut costs to help its customers? Don't be silly.

Actually I heard that they have.

Because the pound has crashed (25%) against the euro, and because eurocontrol charges are in ... euros ... NATS has accordingly reduced its rates to the airlines.

Seemingly NATS have moved down the 'cost of providing ATC' list in Europe to number 4.

However, despite this reduction in 'costs', I am guessing that we will continue to be screwed by the CAA "RPI minus X" constraint on our income - which I am sure applies to our costs in £ sterling, and UK RPI. Generally means we are screwed whichever way .... ?

But I'm only a lowly ATCO, and not really qualified to talk about the really important money and business side of things (which after all is what NATS is about). :hmm:

I'm very hopeful that there will be some thrusting NATS yukspeak expert lurking around who will be able to correct me in simple words that I might actually understand ... :ooh:

[PeltonLevel]

Ben Doonigan
correct me in simple words that I might actually understandHow about: you've pretty well got it right
(Apart from the fact that, even in December, with the November exchange rate of about £1 = €1.20, UK was 6th most expensive, after Spain [mainland and Canaries], Switzerland, Belgium, Italy and Germany - at current exchange rates UK would be about 13th!)

[RPIplus1]

I'd never be in favour of anything less than an RPI pay increase (4.8%)...

One of the 3 reasons used during the pension briefings to convince us that a change was needed was that long-term inflation was high.

To be told that inflation has now fallen and therefore we should accept a pay freeze feels like we are expected to believe anything that we are told (although I do think that we have been somewhat guilty of that! - too many have listened and taken the information "at face value" and not bothered to check what they have been told).

[45 before POL]

Well being 6th on the list would reflect a good deal for the airlines considering cost of living in the Uk is one of the highest in Europe. And the CAA want to cut these further??:ugh::ugh: Back to the pay....RPI should be the minimum the union should come back with...and yes management did propose a pay freeze.(the wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't try it on) However word from a union rep was they can foxtrot oscar if they think that will be accepted, especially as members have accepted the pension changes.:}:}

[mr.777]

I am glad to hear that there is ,at least, some consistency with what was said in my pension briefing regarding telling management to get f***ed over any potential pay freeze. Some good news there....whether they follow through on this though is another matter.

[Me Me Me Me]

There's a very clear path to getting management agreeing to a pay increase... They'll happily stump up the sheckles for a 2-3% rise, provided it's paid for in P45s.

[rumouroid]

Me Me Me Me

I think you are about right with your post as I've just heard that a Swanwick OPS Manager has suggested that all OPS staff at Swanwick take 3 cycles unpaid leave during 2009 to help out the company by reducing salary costs during these hard times. From what I have heard he has been told where to go when he ran the suggestion past some Local Area Supervisors and quite rightly so.
This could be viewed as propaganda so that when we get offered a 0% pay rise we are grateful that we are not being laid off! Alternatively it could be viewed that this Manager has no loyalty to his staff and is only trying to please the Swanwick senior managers and STARBUCKS COMMAND! Either way it's just another stab in the back during the working together process.

[PeltonLevel]

rumouroid

It might be a hint that there won't be many AAVAs offered for iFACTS proving!

[45 before POL]

No. AAVA's? who they trying to kid....even with a downturn in traffic. If they don't use aava's in AC and TC during the months june-sept delays are going to be increase considerably, the place will grind a halt on some days without them. Secondly it will not get any better with ifacts as they have admitted the loss of potentially 21 cross validations during the phase in. :{:{:{

[furrybeast]

You have a well paid, secure job - for heavensake, stop whinging!

[anotherthing]

I've heard the rumour about unpaid leave at Swanwick next year as well... a friend was enquiring if part time working was available if they wanted to go down that route and the manpower manager (I forget his correct title)said "yes, in fact next year we will be asking people to take unpaid leave in the summer as we will be overstaffed"

The usual scaremongering and head up arse rubbish... especially considering that now, in the depths of winter, we are still needing lots of AAVAa to run the operation.

Not sure if it is scaremongering to enable a poor pay deal - given this person used to be a big union cheese and is still actually quite fair when it comes to that side of things, I put it down to bluster and a large dollop of naivety

Furrybeast

I don't see any whingeing in the last few posts - unless of course you think that operational staff being concerned about the Ops room being properly manned is whingein. If that's the case then I will put my hand up to being one of the biggest whingers. Maybe we should just let staffing levels be run down, it is only a safety orientated business after all.

[beaver liquor]

Voluntary unpaid leave is not necessarily a bad thing, if people want to avail of some extra time off, or a sabbatical to travel etc. But compulsory - no way.

Given the numbers of AAVA's still being called in, despite it being winter, I think its a non-starter.

Having said that, it would be typical of the sort of cobblers coming from the Swanwick Ops Managers. What a pointless waste of money they are. If you want to save a million, get rid of them, and the Safety & Training Managers, and keep a Watch Sup in each room, with a max of two Ops Managers who could work office hours.

The Ops Managers are dangerous, because with nothing real to do, they are trying to think outside the box :(

[mr.777]

Unpaid leave in the summer? What an absolute laugh. What idiot thought that one up? The person who invented Photo of the Day no doubt. Nope, hang on, its probably the same person who said that once TC moved down to Swanwick AAVAs would be a thing of the past as we would be up to "full numbers" of operational staff. Please please please let this rumour be true...I cannot WAIT to see them get throught the summer with even less staff than last year.:ugh:

[General_Kirby]

Photo of the Day is gay

[Not Long Now]

Unpaid leave sounds ideal to boost the coffers of those near the bottom of the scale. Take the leave, then come in on the AAVAs to replace yourself and end up better off. Not really worth the difference for those at or near the top of the scale.
Absolutely brilliant and completely typical management brain wave.
Perhaps as traffic has dropped off for winter we should also close the college as we're obviously overstaffed now...

[terrain safe]

Why don't we all have this leave in August? Everyone off for 3 cycles, great, we can all go awawy togeth.... no wait.... ahh bugger new plan!

[privatesandwiches]

Like the pension before it, this is more scaremongering from absolute ****e, this time it is da management, aka 'ops managers'.
Once again, we are being painted a crazy 'worse case' scenario, so when we get faced with some piss take 1% pay offer next month, all the 'yes' lemmings will go running scared and think its better than unpaid leave.
Whats next, being asked to take a £5k pay cut as we should all feel how lucky we are that we get to talk to planes each day?
Get some balls people.

[rumouroid]

Another statement recently made by a female senior manager at Swanwick - there is no money for a bung to get ATCOs to work extra days during iFACTS training, just standard AAVAs.
Once upon a time I remember 2xAAVA or AAVA + 2DILS being talked about for each extra attendance throughout iFACTS training, this was if you agreed in advance to attending a certain number of days.
I hope that we don't give in to just accepting an AAVA for each attendance, after all NATS is desperate to bring in iFACTS. It would be such a wasted opportunity if we don't achieve something even better than the £820 a day we got for OCT back in 2001. £820 back in 2001 is worth over £1000 today with inflation, so that should be the minimum we aim for.
Surely we can use the iFACTS training to our advantage in the pay negotiations, NATS do need our commitment to bring in iFACTS and we should make sure we expolit every opportunity to make them pay for our help.

[Emma1974]

GREED has nothing to do with it.

Its called "the going rate " for an ATCO on their DAY OFF

:{:{:{

[Standard Noise]

ATSOCAS training out here in the little places......
A two hour stint after an early - TOIL
A two hour stint today before a late - TOIL

No mention of money at all, standard rate O/T might have been nice, but that's life among the clover for you.
Greed (as Yahoo mentioned it) is maybe a bit strong, but it's up there somewhere.

[ayrprox]

They think that you can get by without the AAVA's? , ok here's an idea. How about you stop doing them now(a pipe dream i know, as there are too many people willing to sell their hard won time off for ,what is ,way below market value) during the quiet time of year, and see if they can still provide the same level of service.If you are as overmanned as they say you are, Then there should be no detriment to service provision. If however you are right , then they will be phoning people to do AAVA's, which you should all refuse!. That way you can make your point that if thats what winter is like then 3 months unpaid leave in summer is never going to work. As i say though, people not doing AAVA's???? what was i thinking. You'll start saying next that ATCO's will start selling their annual leave next!! :}:}........

WHAT??? they already do!!!! :eek:

:(

[Gonzo]

Rather than saying:

"Unit X gets this for additional attendances, new training etc, and we don't, so they must be greedy"

Maybe we should say this....

"Fair play to Unit X and their local union committee who negotiated the agreement. Maybe next time we have a training commitment our local union committee can use Unit X as an example to get more than we got last time..... "

[anotherthing]

An AAVA is voluntary

People will be required to do iFacts training, i.e. not voluntary.

The only other way round it is for people to be scheduled do training on their normal watch days, then AAVA the shortfall!!

Although I think the money being talked about is incredulous (bearing in mind AC ATCOs already get a very good deal with the amount of AAVAs they get offered per year etc), I do think that the rate should be higher than AAVA as it is a required attendance on a day off.

[landedoutagain]

Surely they (swanwick atco's) cant be offered more than the 21 (?) aava's per year thats supposed to be the limit? Or have i missed something?

I will do them if offered, but then i would also support a union motion to suspend the agreement pending its improvement! But then I need the money. Until the rules change tho, i will still try and get maximum use of my quota in the quiet months! :)

[250 kts]

Surely they (swanwick atco's) cant be offered more than the 21 (?) aava's per year thats supposed to be the limit? Or have i missed something?

No they can't and no, you're not.

[45 before POL]

Whatever agreement they try to push for Ifacts, fair play to what they can get but i won't hold any breath...i have heard that whatever deal is brought in it is purely a voluntary basis for the individual.....bearing in mind there is a requirement to do 13 days training in a period of 5 months 6 on core watch and the other 7 being covered by extra staff(where are they going to get those):eek::eek::eek: will need a bit of persuading to get people in, considering the overtime take up in AC is only 40% of staff, considerably less than TC.

[Dan Dare]

Those of you that state you would accept no pay rise - have you seen the value of the pound recently? My pay has gone down around 33% over the last few months in global terms. As participants in the global economy where most of the food and energy that we HAVE to purchase is not priced in pounds, then we have all suffered a significant pay decrease in real terms. We MUST stand up to maintain our conditions. Government and management hope that we are too stupid to realise this. Don't prove them right.

[Me Me Me Me]

Those of you that state you would accept no pay rise - have you seen the value of the pound recently? My pay has gone down around 33% over the last few months in global terms. As participants in the global economy where most of the food and energy that we HAVE to purchase is not priced in pounds, then we have all suffered a significant pay decrease in real terms. We MUST stand up to maintain our conditions. Government and management hope that we are too stupid to realise this. Don't prove them right.

I'm guessing you weren't offering to give some of it back when the pound peaked at over $2?
The relative cost of imported energy (for example) is factored in to the charges imposed by domestic suppliers to us as customers. Their price rises are justified against the same set of measurements as your pay is: UK cost of living. You can't move the goalposts for measurement just to suit each argument... That would make you... well... a bank. :=

I wont accept a pay freeze due to the fact our company continues to make a healthy profit and inflation continues to be a positive figure.

[anotherthing]

45 before POL

considering the overtime take up in AC is only 40% of staff, considerably less than TC.

I think the reason the take up of AAVAs at LAC is a much lower percentage than at LTC is because LAC get offered so many more than LTC.

If people are only offered 3 or 4 a year (on average), they are likely to take nearly if not all of them.

If people are offered 15 plus per year, then statistically, chances are the percentage off take up will be less because people will not want to do all of them.

However, the management do need to come up with some decent renumeration package to ensure that iFacts training happens - unless of course they do it next summer when, according to scaremongering, we willbe so overborne with staff that time out of the Ops room will not be a problem, even on rostered days!!!!