UK - Approach or Radar on initial contact?

[Romeo Romeo]

I often talk to East Midland on 134.175. In my initial call I refer to them as 'East Midlands Approach' and they always seem to respond with 'East Midlands Radar'. Should I call them 'East Midlands Radar' with my initial call and when should I use the 'Approach' callsign and when should I use 'Radar'?

Cheers

RR.

[mr.777]

I really think that most approach controllers are not that arsed whether you call them "Approach" or "Radar"...well, not those at TC anyway! Just so long as you call the right unit:ok:

[Scooby Don't]

AFAIR, they should call themselves Approach when giving you a non-radar service, so basically a flight information service, and Radar when giving you a radar service.

[Regular Cappuccino]

Technically EMA are a 'Radar Only' unit, and the controller will be sitting in front of a radar display, whatever you call him / her, but essentially, both respondents are correct - & we're not that bothered what you call us (within reason of course......:E)
RC

[airac]

Aerodrome Control ------------------------ -- Tower
Ground Movement Control ---------------------- - Ground
Ground Movement Planning ---------------------- Delivery
Approach Control ----------------------------Approach
ATS Surveillance Services (in general) ---------------- Radar

However, an Air traffic control service is also set out as:-
b) Approach Control service, with or without the use of ATS surveillance systems;

But I reckon the convention is the former:ok:

[mbcxharm]

Callsigns are published in the textual data for each unit in the AIP.

[Jumbo Driver]

Callsigns are published in the textual data for each unit in the AIP.

Absolutely correct, mbcxharm, but not very helpful in this case, as both callsigns are listed for this frequency, see AD 2-EGNX-1-7 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGNX/EG_AD_2_EGNX_en.pdf)


JD
:)

[NeoDude]

Radar - Approach Control using radar.

Approach - Procedural Approach Control without using radar. (Units without radar or a radar unit where the radar is U/S)

[Jumbo Driver]

RR, back to your original question...

If you are IFR on handover, the preceding controller will normally give you the callsign as well as the frequency of the new unit, e.g. "G-XX, Contact East Midlands Radar 134.175", so the question you pose should not arise.

I guess, therefore, that your question relates to a freecall and probably for a service under VFR. I would suggest that, unless you know otherwise (i.e. from hearing a transmission prior to your inital call), your first contact should be addressed according to the service you require. For example, if it is a request for procedural service (such as a VFR join), then use "Approach" or if it is for a radar service (RIS/RAS or Radar Control Service), then "Radar" would be more appropriate.

As was confirmed earlier by RC and others, I'm sure controllers will not mind which callsign is used to address them on initial contact, as they are usually able to offer either service. However, your choice may just serve as a useful initial indication to them as to which service you may be seeking.


JD
:)

[babotika]

About hand-offs, when I flew into EMA London TC would invariably hand us off to "East Midlands Approach" who would invariably answer us as "East Midlands Radar". Same thing in Birmingham, though a few TC controllers called them radar.

So should we use the callsign mentioned in the hand-off or the one we know we will be answered with? :confused:

S.

[Sky Conductor]

So whats "director" then?

[bookworm]

So should we use the callsign mentioned in the hand-off or the one we know we will be answered with?

How would you know? Why would you care? Why would the ground station care? Use the geographical part of the callsign e.g. "East Midlands" and allow the ground station to identify itself in its reply.

[zounds]

Using the correct callsign for the ATC unit ensures that the ATCO is confident that the pilot understands the level of service that is being provided. This is really more important in the Tower, where in the most extreme cases pilots have been known to take off or land without clearance, under the impression that the unit is FISO or Air-Ground rather than ATC. ("xyz information" rather than "xyz tower"). Any unit that you're contacting will (or should) correct you on initial contact if the callsign is wrong, and that's the callsign you should subsequently use. Many Airports only operate Radar for limited amount of time in any 24hr period and their callsign will change as appropriate. (Hence the possibility of confusion with neighboring Units). The level of service that you require is not relevant to the callsign, however it should be noted that just because you're speaking to a Radar unit it doesn't mean you'll get traffic information. (Unless you require a Radar service, but that's another matter)

Long winded perhaps, but hope it helps

[gone_fishing]

I may be entirely wrong on this, but I believe that the approach control suffixes are as follows:

Approach - Procedural Approach Control
Radar - Approach Control with the use of ATS surveillance systems
Director - Approach Control for arrivals only with the use of ATS surveillance systems

There are several exceptions to this rule (like I believe IOM use "Approach" even though they have a ATS surveillance system but this is due to a limited service due terrain, etc) but most follow the convention above.

[Spitoon]

So what's 'DEPARTURE'' then?











Hey, we could make this thread last for ages yet....

[airac]

Spit Dear chap

Are you saying that we are not even approaching the half way stage, and there is still no satisfactory consensus visible on the radar?
Or are you saying that there is such a consanguinity between approach and radar that in effect the two are as one and as such could be addressed by the same callsign:confused:

[bookworm]

Using the correct callsign for the ATC unit ensures that the ATCO is confident that the pilot understands the level of service that is being provided. This is really more important in the Tower, where in the most extreme cases pilots have been known to take off or land without clearance, under the impression that the unit is FISO or Air-Ground rather than ATC. ("xyz information" rather than "xyz tower").

In many circumstances, without the aid of telepathy, only the ground station knows what service is being provided before that initial call. So yes, when I call "Littleville, G-ABCD" it's important that the reply is clearly "G-ABCD, Littleville Tower" or "G-ABCD, Littleville Information". At my own home field, only some of the ATCOs are qualified to provide radar services, so "Bigtown, G-ABCD" will be met with "G-ABCD, Bigtown Approach" or "G-ABCD, Bigtown Radar", and that informs my request for a service. But there's no point in guessing on the initial call.

[mbcxharm]

Absolutely correct, mbcxharm, but not very helpful in this case, as both callsigns are listed for this frequency, see AD 2-EGNX-1-7 (http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/ad/EGNX/EG_AD_2_EGNX_en.pdf)


JD
:)

Exactly, so it doesn't matter - call them one or the other, either is a published callsign and you get a response. If they respond with the other, then you can change the callsign you have used.

[Jumbo Driver]

Exactly, so it doesn't matter - call them one or the other, either is a published callsign and you get a response.

Well, of course you'll get a response whichever you call them mbcxharm - that much is obvious.

But just re-read RR's original question, which was: Should I call them 'East Midlands Radar' with my initial call and when should I use the 'Approach' callsign and when should I use 'Radar'?

I have been responding to that.


JD
:bored:

[radarman]

Centre has just handed me an inbound B733 requesting an ILS. I am therefore providing an approach control service. So should my callsign be 'XXX Approach', to indicate to the pilot what function I am carrying out, or 'XXX Radar' to indicate I am using surveillance equipment to carry out the function? (After all, Tower and Ground use their callsigns to indicate their function, and do not change to 'Radar' when using ASMI). I also have three training Senecas in the hold. Since I can't use radar to separate them, should I talk to them using the callsign 'XXX Approach'. And I also have a low level military Puma below cover, just made a courtesy call and asked if I can get him Northolt's weather. Effectively he is getting a FIS. Should I now be 'XXX Information', and confuse myself by using three different callsigns at the same time?

[Jumbo Driver]

radarman, it surely would not be sensible for a ground facility to employ different callsigns on the same frequency, according to the service being provided ...

In the circumstances you describe, I would have thought you should call yourself "XXX Radar", as that would indicate capabilities for the other two services (i.e. procedural approach & flight information) that you may be called upon to provide.

If you announce yourself as "XXX Approach", that would normally suggest to me that you were an Approach facility, and probably not equipped to provide a radar-based service.

"XXX Information" would clearly not be able to provide either of the other two services.


JD
:)

[radarman]

JD
I agree entirely with your para 2, but I got rapped over the knuckles by the SATCO a couple of years ago for doing that. He said that as I was providing an Approach Control Service I should call myself 'Approach'.

The main problem in the Approach/Radar controversy is that there is no guidance as to whether the unit's callsign should reflect it's function (Approach), or the equipment used to provide the function (Radar). So a controller identifying himself as 'XXX Approach' may be using radar. But then again he might not. Similarly, if a controller identifies himself as 'XXX Radar' he may be providing an approach control service. But he might not. As usual, the traditional remedy of looking it up in the MATS 1 only muddies the water. What exactly are 'ATS Surveillance Services (in general)? And isn't Area Control an ATS Surveillance Service? If so, why is its callsign 'Control' and not 'Radar'? :confused: :confused:

[bookworm]

And isn't Area Control an ATS Surveillance Service? If so, why is its callsign 'Control' and not 'Radar'?

In many other states, it is 'Radar'. Germany and the NL both use Radar for their area control services (Langen Radar, Amsterdam Radar).