Latest news on Shoe Bomb (Non Political/Racial comments only)

[sky9]

Latest news in the Boston Globe on "Shoe Bomber" indicates that he did not act alone.
<a href="http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/360/nation/Bomb_suspect_has_possible_terror_link+.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/360/nation/Bomb_suspect_has_possible_terror_link+.shtml</a>

[Huck]

From MSNBC:


... sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that some prisoners under U.S. control said they recognized Richard Reid, also known as Abdel Rahim, as having attended al-Qaida training camps in Afghanistan.
Some of those who said they recognized Reid from photographs shown to them by U.S. interrogators remembered him as being “high strung,” the sources said.
If confirmed, Reid’s attendance at the camp would provide the first evidence linking him to bin Laden’s terrorist network.
Word of the reaction to Reid’s photo in Afhanistan came as new details emerged about the suspect.
Among other things, it was revealed Wednesday that Reid attended a London mosque at the same time as Zacarias Moussaoui, accused of helping to plot the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in New York City and Washington.

[FFFlyer]

I remember that 'Samsonite' suitcases and attache cases were favourite for smuggling plastic explosives in and I seem to recall (although I may be wrong) that some airlines banned them for a time. They are in regular use now. Are scanners so much better that they can detect anything in one of those cases?
Perhaps somebody like the Guvnor can enlighten me.

[IanSeager]

There is something that I find confusing in this case. I'm sure there's a good reason, hope somebody can help explain it for me. All of the reports that I have read indicate that he will be charged with assault.

'The FBI said it would be charging Mr Reid, 28, with assault and intimidation of the crew of American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami. He is due in court on Friday' (From the BBC)

These charges seem sililar to those that might be brought for air rage incidents. Why no endagering an aeroplane, attempted murder, possesion of explosives etc.?

Ian

[Huck]

I think the initial arraignment was just to hold him in jail. Most likely a grand jury will be asked to bring federal charges of terrorism, etc...

[Squawk 8888]

Better still, how about High Treason? He's a UK citizen who took up arms on behalf of the enemy during wartime, after all.

[PaperTiger]

Would he not 'qualify' for one of Dubya's military tribunals ? If not, why not ?

[747FOCAL]

I still want to know how he got throught it without at least a fat lip from an overly scared PAX.

[Check 6]

HUCK is correct. He was arraigned in the Magistrates Court on basic charges, pending a more detailed indictment that will be presented to the Grand Jury.

After the indictment, he will be arraigned again in the U.S. District Court. After the usual legal motions by the Federal Defenders, a trial date will be set.

"Give him a fair trial and then hang him!"

[Vmike]

What I find amazing is that someone who looks like him, with a one-way ticket and no luggage was even allowed on an aeroplane. If you asked anyone on the planet to come up with a stereo-typical portrait of an Mulsim fundamentalist terrorist, you'd get him! What the hell were the security people thinking of? <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Ibis]

I wonder, what would happend when the guy got struck over his head and killed in the struggele?
Would the police charge somebody??
or is this self defence?

[bjcc]

As regards to charging someone if he had been killed in the struggle. Don't know about US law, but under UK law (which someone could still be liable under if he is indeed a UK citizen) then very very unlightly. A person is entitled to use reasonable force in self defence. But it would depend on what the person doing the killing had in his mind at the time, if he were aware that this berk was trying to devide the plane and contents into thier compent parts, then no sane jury would ever convict....but then again, I never came across a sane jury! However this is all speculation as sadly no one did kill him, thus saving the expense and the possibility that 12 good men and true will believe he didn't have enough toys as a child ... and aquitt him!

[Huck]

Generally in the states one can use deadly force when one's life (or the life of another) is threatened. You generally have a duty to escape if you can; this rule does not, however, apply to your house - you can use deadly force to defend yourself in your house without having to try to run away first.

Many folks in my part of the country express themselves thusly: "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6!"

Interesting, by the way, that they made it all the way to Boston. Was any other airport (Halifax, Bangor, etc....) closer? How did they know this guy was alone? Al Quaeda had previously sent groups of 5. If I were PIC I might have thought about dumping the cabin pressure and pointing it at the nearest runway....

[PaperTiger]

Remember the passenger who was asphxyated while being subdued on a Southwest flight. No charges were laid against the subduers in that case, and he didn't have exploding footwear.

On another front, according to <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/12/25/plane.investigation/index.html" target="_blank">CNN</a> the head of the firm doing security for AA at Paris, Reid was identified twice as a threat. French Authorities (whoever they were) decided he wasn't. But surely AA should have had the last word ?

[Roadtrip]

So much for the much-touted Euro security . . . even when put on extreme alert and having an individual flagged by the airline and sent for special screening. Pathetic.

[See bee]

If I had been a passenger on the flight, with a little private money, then I might just attempt to bring a private lawsuit, or better still, a joint lawsuit against the body of people responsible for putting my life in danger.
fair or not, we all know that force is the only way to ensure what may be costly changes required to security procedures currently in force.
In this case it may be their whole operations procedures that need to be revised, & revised right now!!!!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

MikeEcho,

Re Vmikes comments.

I don't find them at all offensive. Unfortunately for all the good minded, reasonable Muslims world wide the current threat is demonstably 'Middle Eastern Males of Muslim Religion'. This individual was identified as a possible threat, based on his looks and behaviour, and it turned out he was a threat.

When the Muslim world starts acting with some conviction to stop this madness, instead of a mix of 'dancing in the streets' and Govt responses along the lines "Yes it is terrible and we condemn these people" while secretly(and often not so secretly) saying, "But the Americans had it coming", then they(the Muslim world) will be able to hold their heads up in the world community.

Their Religion is being hijacked by criminals, but I don't see the sort of reaction that one might expect from the Muslim world community.

Chuck.

[StressFree]

MikeEcho,
I'm struggling to work out what your problem is..............

<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[malanda]

For the record, Mr. Reid is reported to have an English mother and Jamaican father.

[TwinAisle]

Ref: Vmike's comment...

Didn't anyone really think that someone travelling longhaul solo and without luggage was a cause of suspicion? The "way he looks" is pretty irrelevant. I know that customs here in the UK make extensive use of "profiling" people, and if you don't fit the profile, you get stopped. Example - I worked for a few weeks in Turkey, and travelling home was stopped by customs (as a single guy, coming in from Istanbul on a regular basis) almost every time. For the record, I am not Muslim, and have a typical European visage...

[allianceair]

Malanda:

So then he is of West Indian lineage. West Indians just don't make good suicide bombers!

Look at the West Indies cricket team for example, the bunch of scrubs got a beating from Sri Lanka.

There might be a correlation between the propensitey for suicide bombings and cricketing performance in this case :)

[dallas dude]

Paper tiger,

One would think it reasonable to imagine that the FINAL AUTHORITY as to who goes, and who stays, should be the skipper.

Unfortunately, as Captains like Stuart Clapson discovered, marketing departmants run airlines and accordingly they have the final say regards to who gets on.

Nowadays, any Captains refusing to carry a passenger need a damn good excuse. (I use this as a recent example, NOT in order to drag BA flightcrew or Captain Clapson down).

Said Captains receive little support from the company for fear of a discrimination lawsuit. (I believe all airline tickets should have a "right to refuse service" disclaimer, similar to many other private enterprises. Purchase of such ticket would then become an acceptance of such a condition.)

Sounds crazy I know but they're so concerned about ANY negative implications that they calculate which risks are deemed acceptable. Funny how they're not the ones actually personally subject to the same risks that flight crews are! Sweeping stuff under the carpet doesn't help if you're five miles high when an otherwise avoidable situation occurs.

Marketing majors pore over passenger surveys, take the data and throw the much needed common sense (and experiance) out of the window.

They need to start listening to their front line "troops". After all, the flight attendants spend the MOST time in the company of the passengers. This is real time feedback, not some selective telephone survey taken days after.

But then I guess in their eyes most flight attendants don't have the required "I'm smart
because I went to business school" certificate hanging on the wall.

I'll take practical first hand knowledge any day.

Rant over.

[The Guvnor]

FFFlyer - there are indeed various detection systems that will pick up explosives such as C4, Semtex, PETN, NG, RDX, EGDN etc in checked baggage through the use of scatter radiation.

The main problem is that these systems are very expensive (when they first came out they were well over US$1m each!) and though most major European airports are equipped with them from what I understand coverage is very sparse in the USA and generally limited to major international gateways.

Hopefully, as demand picks up prices will drop making them more widespread.

There are also vapour detectors in use that will pick up passengers carrying such items on their person or in their handbaggage.

Incidentally, the reason for the 'Samsonite ban' was simply that hardsided cases such as the Samsonite and Delsey permitted the installation of hidden compartments and/or the use of existing cavities for the carriage of explosives or other contrabrand. They were therefore given a more thorough examination, though I don't think there was ever a ban per se - most of the world's airline crews use them!

[Squawk 8888]

http://www.canoe.com/Dec27/donato.jpg

[Huck]

Based on pictures I've seen, the only profile this guy met was "butt-ugly"....

[Wino]

Since the mid 80s or so C-4 and other explosives made commercially have been required by international agreement to include an agent that allows them to be detected by odor.

However, that agent is not required in the production of those explosives and so I wonder if explosives made outside the US and Europe really can be detected!

I am not sure what molecule these systems use, it may just be the vapor addative that is required, if so, then all of this is probably crap, as many less reputable countries are probably capable of manufacture without the addative.

Cheers
Wino

[sky9]

Did anyone else hear the Home Secretary on BBC Radio 4 PM say that the Bomber had been foiled. I'm glad he though that the security operation was a success. <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Why didnt he go the the toilet and light the fuse?, this would have probably bought him enough time to set the explosive off!.

[brockenspectre]

What puzzles me from the first report (the newspaper link in the first post starting this thread) is that the French authorities appear to have held Reid back BECAUSE he was on a one-way ticket without luggage, he missed his original flight, was put up at American Airlines expense and permitted by the airline to travel on the following day. Has this information been corroborated? If so it makes one wonder about the sanity of of the airline officials in Paris that they overrule the authorities. What is the situation here - if authorities suspect but airline overrules? Can a person not be searched under relevant terrorism laws? and if so...wouldn't the clothes/shoes have tested positive for explosives?

I am totally puzzled.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[brockenspectre]

and as a corollary to my previous post - if all is as reported, was the Captain then informed of the French authorities' suspicions and Reid's seat number brought to the attention of cabin crew so they could keep an eye on him? If neither of these occurred then American Airlines is extremely fortunate that another airborne atrocity didn't happen.

<img src="eek.gif" border="0">

[Wino]

Broken spectre,

AA kicked the guy back to the French police who questioned the guy and supposedly searched him and verified his as good to go.

After that he was then carried by AA. It was not the french who identified him. IT was American Airlines. It is the french that said he was to fly.

So one more time. American Airlines extra private security profiled the guy, and sent him to the French to be more thoroughly investigated.

Cheers
Wino

[bblank]

In the thread "Tip off FBI, not FAA" that appears on the second page of R&N, I posted a link to the arrest of Zacarias Moussaoui for his involvement in the 9 11 plot. According to an AP story today, Richard Reid attended the same London mosque as that of Zacarias Moussaoui. The leader of that mosque warned authorities of extremist activities. According to a BBC report, Peter Herbert, deputy chairman of London's Metropolitan Police Authority, confirmed that those warnings were ignored.

[aviator]

Several questions come to my mind:

1. Was the Captain of the original flight informed of Shoe-man's removal? Shoe-man could have had accomplices on the airplane.

2. Was the Captain of the second flight informed of Shoe-man's presence and informed that Shoe-man had been removed from the same flight the day before?

3. Did the French questioners contact the British government, since Shoe-man was on a British passport?

4. Were American authorities (the destination) notified and was their approval requested? According to news reports, a link has now been established between Shoe-man and Al Qeada training camps. If that link could have been established BEFORE flight, Shoe-man should not have been permitted to board any flight anywhere.

5. Once having been held off an airplane long enough to miss a flight, maybe the "passenger" should always be given an involuntary reroute. This might just be enough to break the chain of events, especially if nothing specific turns up. The same flight 24 hours later seems risky to me.

6. I hear that now the big security emphasis is on the inspection of shoes. This assumes that the NEXT incident will be a carbon copy of the last attempt. Don't we yet know better?

7. How is it that Shoe-man was allowed to board with matches in his carry-on? Lighters and matches have no productive use aboard an airplane.

[ATC Watcher]

Well , according to my info, the following scenario took place:
Mr shoe-man was questionned before embarking the first flight by AA security staff, who questionned the fact that he was travelling without luggage and had a brand new passport ( he had a return ticket, in fact a multiple legs one bought in a travel agency )They ( the AA security staff) reffered the man to the French police ( Police de l'air et des frontieres or PAF)to check his credentials. The police , according to their spokeman , only checked this the passport, and said it was a genuine one, made by the British consulate in Brussels , Mr shoe-man had expalined he lost his former pasport while on holidays in Benelux . The British authorities (Embassy ?) confirmed the passport was genuine. the Police then returned the man to AA security, who then decided that he could travel , but because the police investigation took too much time he missed the flight.
AA then apologised and put Mr shoe man in a CDG hotel at their expenses and had him travel on the next day same flight.
Now of coure both AA security and French police say they did their jobs correctly and accuse each other.
I do not think ( but it is speculation from me ) that the Captains of both flights were informed .

One thing is for sure is that airline security staff authority is dictated by the individual Airline policy. Only very few airlines ( exception : El Al ) give carte blanche to their security staff at check in to refuse boarding on suspicion only . But this might change now. Cooperation with local police authorities is also a problem in some countries, especially as far as their own nationals are concerned. ( But this was not the case in CDG apparently )

[Raas767]

I think we should all start negotiating for combat pay! :)

[In the slot]

Well I am amazed that irrespective of anything else, ANYBODY can board a long haul flight with NO baggage in the current climate and not be subject to intense questioning. After AA security referred him back to the French police, who we know don't have the best reputation in the world (try going to them if you are a tourist and have an incident in France!), and the police found "nothing wrong" I can't believe that nobody at AA was still suspicious.
As mentioned a reroute would be good. Inform all the flight and cabin crew. And now a full change of clothes seems likely.
This guy didnt look too clever, and the fact that he could have gone to the toilet and light the fuse undisturbed and successfully caused a disaster, but didnt shows he was a bit dim. It's just a matter of time before one of his colleagues with an IQ higher than 15 tries his luck, and that is worrying.
I hear stories of all kinds of (innocent) people being offloaded due to a perceived threat, yet the shoe guy after causing MUCH justified suspicion was eventually welcomed on board.
Watch out!!

[Paterbrat]

Looking at a positive aspect of the situation it now appears that not only is their greater vigilance on the part of the cabin staff and pax but there is a far greater liklehood that people will become actively involved now the it has been so horrificaly demonstrated that passive complience is not necceserily going to be the safest thing to do. It's everybody's ass in a sling and up to all to pitch in and help.

[Superpilot]

Edited for fear of aiding the creation of more paranoia and knee-jerk reactions.

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Superpilot ]</p>

[Heavy Landing]

Oh yeah, you'll be just fine with those credentials, Superpilot. you wont arouse any suspicion at all, and all security be waived for you because you have attitude... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

So, what exactly is the purpose of your trip? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[sky9]

Interesting comment in today’s Daily Telegraph pointing out that the intended day of travelling was the 13th anniversary of the Pan Am Lockerbie disaster.
<a href="http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/29/wreid29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/12/29/ixport.html" target="_blank">http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/29/wreid29.xml&sSheet=/portal/2001/12/29/ixport.html</a>

[The BFG]

I just heard his Aunt being quoted on the radio as having said, “he was a lonely sole” I wonder if she realised the pun?

[mboulton]

I blame the french security services at paris for stupidity letting this obvious suspicious character ever boarding an AMERICAN aircraft

[SaturnV]

ATC Watcher, some additional details on 'ShoeMan' or the SneakerBomber as he is sometimes referred to on this side of the pond.

1.) Shoeman's passport had expired, and the British consulate in Brussels issued him a new one. The expired one was stapled to the back of the new, so it was apparently never lost. On examination of the expired passport, there are visa stamps for Israel and Pakistan, and several pages are torn out (which suggests he wanted to hide some of his travels from someone at some point). (More on the Isreal trip below.)

2.) The news reports on this side of the pond have consistently stated that ha had a one-way ticket purchased with cash. There have been no reports on whether the final destination on the ticket read Antigua or Miami. (I suspect that a one-way ticket from Paris to Antigua/Miami over this holiday period would not have been cheap.)

3.) Shoeman apparently had no fixed address, and the indication is that he had no job (if one sought to verify employment with an employer). However, he was well-traveled.

4.) His only luggage was a backpack. When questioned why he had no luggage, his reply was that he had clothing in Antigua, his purported ultimate destination.

5.) French police questioned him extensively, so much so that he missed his original flight. Supposedly, the questioning continued at the 4-star hotel where American paid for his lodging. There was apparently never any physical search of his shoes or clothing. There is no indication that matches were found in any search of his backpack.

6.) American's security contractor at CDG supposedly raised concerns about Shoeman when he appeared for check-in for both flights. Supposedly, at the time of check-in for the second flight, one or more of the CDG security
screeners recognized him from the day before but gave him a perfunctory wave-through this time.

7.) Shoeman traveled on El Al to Israel in July 2001. El Al security remembers him well. He supposedly fit the profile of a terrorist or potential terrorist so perfectly that they subjected him to an extensive search, including removing his shoes and scrutinizing them, before boarding him. Evan after finding nothing remiss, El Al security remained sufficiently suspicious that they sat him at the back of the cabin and sat an armed sky marshal next to him.

8.) After spending some days in Israel, Shoeman apparently transited to Egypt through Gaza. In recent weeks, he was in Belgium, France, and the Netherlands. Supposedly, the high-top sneakers he was wearing were bought in Amsterdam. (Given his height, it may be that sneakers of this type that would fit him could be more readily found there.)

9.) There is no indication that the flight crew on either American flight were alerted to any suspicions security had about Shoeman. On the flight he boarded, a woman passenger was in an adjacent seat in his row, and he did not try to light the fusing to the explosive until she had left her seat. (As an aside, this is one instance in which the no smoking prohibition may have saved an airplane and all souls on board.)

10.) The explosive was supposedly glued beneath the undersole in each sneaker. So not readily detected by a visual scan.

11.) More critically, the explosive in the sneakers was TATP, not PETN or Semtex or C-4 as earlier reported by some American news media. TATP can easily be made in a kitchen using easily obtained materials. Supposedly, it is the favored explosive of marijuana farmers, who boobytrap their plantations with it. And which is why the FBI has characterized the bombs as homemade or improvised. [Several newspapers continue to report on December 29th that PETN (Primacord) was also present in the shoes. However, the FBI in the magistrate's hearing identified only TATP as the explosive device, and further opined that to blow open the fuselage skin, the explosive would have had to been set off in a window seat. (Shoeman was assigned a window seat.) The amount of explosive in each shoe was given as 4-5 ounces, but how much of that weight is inert ingredients (for molding) has not been indicated.]

12.) TATP is highly unstable, and may readily explode prematurely. None of the basic ingredients of TATP are nitrate based, so bomb screening based on detection of nitrates might not have found the explosive.

13.) There are reports that Shoeman had bad body odor. Whether this was from not bathing or not changing his clothes is unclear. However, he did stay overnight in a 4-star hotel which, by classification, has more than adequate plumbing to wash and bathe. (One can speculate that the body odor was deliberate, perhaps to mask any odor from the TATP. One TATP ingredient has a sweet odor.)

14.) Kudoes to the cabin crew of AA 63!!! They not only saved their flight, but perhaps their airline as well. Given what is now known about Shoeman and his travels and his profile, the American tort bar could have potentially financially crippled AA with punitive damages. Unlikely this time around, given the circumstances, that Congress would have indemnified AA for this terrorist action as was done for September 11.

15.) The magistrate hearing in Boston on December 28 had the effect on detaining ShoeMan in prison until trial. Additional charges will quite likely be brought, including the attempted murder of all on board. The FBI's main effort at this point is in identifying who aided Shoeman, which would then lead to additional charges of conspiracy and the indictment of one or more co-conspirators.

16.) In response to an earlier post, the flight was diverted to Boston once Shoeman was sedated and the crew assured themselves there was no other accomplice on-board. (One can assume the passenger list for the original flight is being carefully checked.) Diverting to Canada would only mean delay in investigating Shoeman because he would have to be exttadited to the US. A diversion to Boston rather than Bangor was likely the mutual preference of the FBI, because there is a much larger FBI staff in Boston, and AA, which has a large station at BOS.

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>

[Huck]

I still would have put it down at the nearest suitable. Let the FBI worry about travelling to get him.

This incident illustrates one of the commandments of aviation - when you're scared, stay scared. Too many accidents have occured because some crewmember/ground worker thought something was wrong, and maybe even did some preliminary inquiries, but did not assume the worst nor follow through to the final steps. Think of the agony the CDG screeners must be feeling now - their job is to stop these idiots, and they came so close, but just didn't stick to their guns.

[The Guvnor]

Interestingly, Triacetonetriperoxide (TATP) is the most common terrorist explosive used in Israel, largely because of its ease of manufacture. However, in order to be effective, it requires to be detonated in an enclosure (such as a pipe-bomb) and in the format used would not have been very effective. Indeed, even without being detonated, it is likely to have caused significant damage to the wearer's shoes! However, it is highly sensitive to jarring and putting it in one's shoes is akin to playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol.

It's actually used as a 'primary' explosive; ie one that detonates another, more powerful charge such as C4.

It is therefore improbable that much damage to the aircraft could have been caused in this case.

[brockenspectre]

SaturnV
Excellent summation.

Becoming slightly Orwellian let me speculate on the future. I can begin to envisage the day when upon arrival at an airport pax are checked in, provided with a "flight suit" and slippers and their personal clothes, which themselves are of specific style/design, and handbaggage are subjected to rigorous scrutiny and heat-sealed into transparent bags by checkin staff (pax have to change in sex specific open changing rooms). Pax will go through a radiograph-style scan that will highlight any objects in body cavities. Hold baggage will be limited to non-metallic objects only, packed in soft cases. Only items bought in special shops airside will be permitted in the cabin and these items will be sealed in plastic and taken direct to the flight by the store (so a pax can't tamper with items in lavatories). All public areas (including lavatories) will be surveilled and lavatory cubicles will be on timers...anyone spending longer than a specific time in a cubicle will find the door spring open! and finally ... people will only be allowed to fly on specific airlines according to nationality having obtained "safe flyer" status by prior clearance from the authorities and accepting the implanting of a microchip (similar to the Pet ID ones) !!!

Have I missed anything?

OK so it is a dull and dreary southern UK, my car has gone u/s and I have let my mind run away with what is practical but at least these measures would mean that the risks to pax/crews airbone would revert to ATC/pilot skill/engineering!

Just kidding (or am I?).

:)

edited to embolden SaturnV name!!

[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: brockenspectre ]</p>

[Roadtrip]

Unbelievable buffoonery on the part of the UK for issuing this guy a replacement passport without question after seeing ripped out pages in his old one. Also, buffoonery on the part of the French for passing him through their suppossed check.

[Huck]

"It's actually used as a 'primary' explosive; ie one that detonates another, more powerful charge such as C4."

I believe, Guv, that the "more powerful charge" was the fuel tanks. That may explain why he did not go to a lavatory and ignite the charge in privacy. They are full aft and full forward. His seat was over the tanks.

In which case this was a pretty dam' sophisticated plan.....

[Al Weaver]

I read that he did not pick his seat beforehand, since he got an upgrade courtesy of AA the day of the flight. I also read that he was trying to move to a window seat just before he was accosted (probably to see his feet better. Also what make anybody think that they can cause a fuel tank explosion at altitude with cold soaked fuel by blowing a hole through the floor.

Definitley not a sophisticated plan with much intelligence, but alas just the appearance of a terrorist will drive more passengers away and acchieve the desired goals.

[The Guvnor]

Huck - the explosive capabilities of those shoes would have been roughly equivalent to a couple of packets of firecrackers. It would only have done serious damage had it been in a container that would have concentrated and directed the blast.

Put another way: I certainly wouldn't have wanted to wear those shoes, but if I was sitting in the row behind this guy, I would almost certainly not have been injured had they gone off.

The chances of penetrating the fuel tanks and causing an explosion there would have been miniscule.

[OzDude]

What a lot of 'experts' we have here... NOT! Why do the moderators allow such imbeciles to post all this drivel. We have the Guvnor going into orgasmic spasm because he has an opportunity to waffle on about explosives or guns when we all know he is a failed businessman whose only experience of authority is the ones after him for various illegal activities and lewd behaviour.

Now we have that american white supremacist Road Trip whose dear countrymen can do no wrong yet he must be a buffoon for not realiseing that it is most likely that this terrorist probably tore out the pages from his old passort AFTER the new one was issued. While I agree the French were obviously very lax in their supervision and interrogation of this man, AA do have their own security people at all foreign airports so they must be buffoons too!

Why do we have to put up with such people on here? They are either so full of themselves that they believe their own bull or they are unable to use ther underdeveloped sense of reasoning to figure out a few basic things facts.

Thankfully I have another trip so I will not be posting here for a while and those of you that believe that the sun shines out of the Guvnors arse can post your indignation at my comments so that the Walter Mitty of the airline industry can go all moist before making another of his empty "I'll sue you" threats which worries me about as much being hit by a meteorite because we all know he he would not dare as his life of lies and deception would be exposed.

So many topics are ruined by people who think they sound good but do not have the ability to back up their comments with experience.

[mutt]

OzDude

Do you think that you might be able to keep to the subject for a change? Your constant attacks on The Guvnor are becoming a bore!

Mutt

[whatbolt]

Having read so many differant views I thought I'd find out myself- basically "it would appear that what shoe man would have actually achieved is far from certain "-quote - blown a hole in the aircraft or set a fuel tank off-explosives behave differantly each time and the air pressure around them is just one factor-whether he had explosive in both shoes- in what quantity and whether both shoes would have exploded is another unknown and the result again by no means certain " the problem likely to have an effect in a -pressurised tube -is the sudden lack of oxygen and the shock, wave again the actual result not certain. One things for sure - the cabin crew and pax involved deserve a medal

[mach78]

Hey Ozdude,

If I don't like what Guvnor says (which is often), I ignore it.
You don't have to put up with mate, you can f--- o-- the site.
That choice is open to us all.

And no, I don't think the photons emanate from your sphincter either.......

[Roadtrip]

AA security WERE the ones who tossed him back to French security for a thorough check. Also, why would Reid (or whatever alias he choses to use today) tear pages out of an old passport after he has his new clean one?

OZDUDE - You're slander about me being a racist is beneath contempt, and is as incorrect as your other assertions.

[SaturnV]

Guv, TATP is not the benign explosive that you imply, as if a detonation would merely have tickled Shoeman's toes. Neither you nor I have knowledge as to how much explosive material was in the two high-top sneakers. If an FBI agent is willing to state under oath that the amount was sufficient -- if exploded adjacent to the cabin wall -- to rupture the fuselage skin and cause an explosive decompression, then I will rely on his analytical judgment at this point. Assuming Shoeman is charged with attempted murder, then it will be the prosecutor's burden at trial to demonstrate there was sufficient TATP to produce such a consequence and support an attempted murder conviction.

TATP was allegedly the explosive of choice on a Philippine Airlines 742 in 1994. The device was placed under a seat, subsequently exploded, killing one passenger, injuring others, and blowing a hole in the cabin floor. This particular terrorist incident was supposedly masterminded by an al-Qaeda terrorist who is now imprisoned for life in the United States. (This 747 bombing is also thought to have been a prelude to his more audacious scheme of simultaneously hijacking/bombing 12 US airliners throughout the world.)

lomapaseo, Shoeman was not upgraded. He was in coach, sitting in row 29. I have seen no reports that there was a commotion beforehand about his changing his seat. He did attract the attention of the cabin crew during meal service by declining both food and drink.

Additional miscellaneous information from today's newspapers: the ticket price was $1,800, paid in cash, and the routing was Paris-Miami-Antigua. Taken from Shoeman's person on the airplane was a box of matches, plus several lose matches. In early 2001, Shoeman had applied for a new British passport in Islamabad, Pakistan, but for reasons unknown, it was not issued.

On the missing pages from the expired passport. It is unclear when they were removed. If one were to speculate, the most likely time would have been prior to his July trip to Israel, where the appearance of certain visa stamps might have made the Israeli's even more suspicious of him, and resulting in a denied boarding. If as the Israeli's believe, Shoeman was testing El Al security and vulnerability, then a denied boarding would have frustrated his recon.

[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: SaturnV ]</p>

[George Semel]

I just love 20/20 hind sight. They other thing would have been every body yelling about his rights. Well nothing much happened other that some inconvience. As for the Mutt in question, well at some future date, he will be strapped to a table and put to sleep. My guess is this Mutt is singing as fast and as loud has he can with the idea that Life or 40 years in a US jail is better than being put to sleep. Now some will say that its not right to put this guy to death. Well he had no qualm in blowing up an airplane full of passingers and puting them to death, he went in snow and now will have to pay the tow.

[747FOCAL]

hmmm. He had, what roughly 10 ounces of plastic. Maybe I didn't here right, but that is what I read he had. From what my military buddies say would look like a credit card about 3/8 inch thick. Didn't the NTSB use 200 grams of the same stuff to see what it would do to a 747 after the TWA800 flight? The video I saw showed a plane that nobody would have survived from in cruise. If I am converting right wouldn't this guy have had about 280 grams?

[PaperTiger]

On the missing pages from the expired passport. It is unclear when they were removed. If one were to speculate, the most likely time would have been prior to his July trip to Israel
Highly unlikely the LY selectors would have missed something that obvious IMO.

[ATC Watcher]

Saturn V : Thanks for both very informative posts
.A bit of more speculation on the passport's missing pages: if what I read in the press is correct, Mr Shoeman went to Pakistan after visiting Israel and Gaza .If that is the case , I do not think one can enter Pakistan ( among other Muslim Countries) if one has an Isreali stamp on his passport.(unless of course you have friends in high places )

[The Guvnor]

747Focal - no, the explosive they used on the test at Bruntingthorpe on an ex AF 747-100 fuselage was Semtex, which is approximately 100 times more powerful. Remember, TATP is normally used merely as a primary (detonator) to set off a more powerful charge such as C4 or Semtex.

Don't forget either the more you have, the more unstable it is - so we're talking a very small amount indeed otherwise the simple act of walking would have caused a larger amount to detonate.

According to a mate of mine (who is an expert in such matters) a credit card sized amount would remove most of your foot but that's about it.

SaturnV et al - any pages that have been removed from a passport will excite the attention of any immigration authority - especially as they might indicate that the bearer was denied entry into their country. It's one of the things most airline check-in staff are trained to look out for as well.

[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]</p>

[Paterbrat]

Having been caught in the act I sincerely hope that he recieves what he intended for the entire plane load of passengers and crew. The death penalty.
That goes for the rest of the Al Quida prisoners including the poor misguided American and British Muslims who felt impelled to show their loyalty to Ousama and his networks.

[The Guvnor]

From today's Sunday Times:

[quote]The shoe bomber: Israel’s secret game of tag with terror Briton

DAVID LEPPARD

IT took an alert El Al security guard seconds to see that Richard Reid betrayed the tell-tale signs of a terrorist suspect. With his long flowing hair and strikingly large frame, he stood out among the business passengers and tourists at Amsterdam’s Schiphol airport as he arrived for the El Al flight to Tel Aviv last July.

Reid was taken aside for questioning. He was not Jewish and was travelling alone on a ticket bought with cash. He was unable to explain what he planned to do in Israel.

The El Al security boss decided not to let him fly to Tel Aviv. But officers at Shin Bet, the internal Israeli security service, overruled him. The spy agency wanted to follow him to establish who he was meeting. An armed sky marshal sat near Reid on the flight. For the next five days his movements throughout Israel were monitored.

However, details of Israeli concerns that Reid was a security risk were not passed on to British, French or American officials. Experts say that if they had been it is unlikely that he would have been allowed on any aircraft. Last weekend the British-born Reid was arrested in America after allegedly trying to blow up an American Airlines jet over the Atlantic.

Reid later told the FBI that it was while going through the El Al security checks that he first realised he could get a bomb on board a plane hidden in his shoes. The Schiphol guards had removed his trainers and x-rayed them for explosives — a routine not carried out by any other airline.

Investigators are still trying to establish whether Reid’s Israel trip can be connected to what happened over the Atlantic last weekend. A theoretical link was revealed last week by an FBI agent at Reid’s court hearing in Boston. The agent said the explosive he used was TATP — the same as that employed by many Middle Eastern terror groups. Israeli intelligence has linked it to Hamas, the suicide-bombing group.

Reid’s visit to Israel was only part of his recent travels. Those trips hold the key to the puzzle occupying investigators: was he an aimless drifter with an obsessive desire to martyr himself for Islam, or a key member of Osama Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda network whose mission was to initiate a second wave of terror after the September 11 attacks? The bizarre nature of the plot and its incompetent execution suggest the former. But the cash purchase of expensive flight tickets and explosives and the design of the shoe bomb indicate accomplices and organisation of some kind. American intelligence sources are beginning to conclude that there are strong indications that Reid was a member of Al-Qaeda.

His travels certainly point to countries with a strong Al-Qaeda connection. After Israel he went to Egypt, then to Turkey, then he spent a few days in Peshawar in Pakistan. There, on his own account, he tried unsuccessfully to cross the border into Afghanistan.

He returned to Amsterdam and went to Brussels to get a new British passport to replace his existing one, which had an Afghan visa in it. He then returned to Amsterdam to buy explosives.

Reid claims to have acted alone. He says he arranged to buy a small parcel of explosives after contacting a right-wing group on the internet. He says he handed over £1,100 to a man in a park in exchange for the explosives. Later he caught a train to Paris, where he paid £290 in cash for a ticket on an American Airlines flight to Miami.

At Charles de Gaulle airport, ICTS, the security firm that screens passengers for American Airlines, singled him out again as suspicious, this time because he was travelling alone with only a small carry-on bag. He was questioned and stayed overnight at a hotel near the airport.

The following day police allowed Reid on to American Airlines flight 63. There was no system in place to detect the explosives hidden in his black suede basketball trainers. When the plane was 3 hours out over the Atlantic, Reid is alleged to have tried to light a detonating cord protruding from a hole drilled into the toecap of his shoe.

After a scuffle in which Reid bit a stewardess’s hand, passengers and crew wrestled him to the floor, tied him up and sedated him. The plane was diverted to Boston, where Reid was arrested and charged with assaulting a member of the flight crew.

Forensic experts say there was enough TATP in Reid’s shoe to puncture the Boeing 767’s fuselage, potentially depressurising and destroying it and the 197 passengers and crew on board.

Reid’s outlandish effort, in full view of the other passengers, was described as “cack-handed” by a British intelligence official. He said the early evidence pointed to Reid being a loner. But other officials say the money he used to buy the explosives and pay for his travels must point to a different conclusion. They also say the construction of the shoe bombs would have required at least some help from an explosives expert.

The FBI is giving serious consideration to links with Al-Qaeda. It is possible that Reid may have been used by his masters either for a dummy run to test airline security or to maintain pressure on western security agencies and to keep up the sense of fear among passengers and officials.

The FBI is trying to confirm reports that he was identified by captured Al-Qaeda fighters as having attended Khalden, a training camp in Afghanistan. It was even reported last night that exasperated American intelligence officers were pressing for Reid to be given a controversial truth drug.

One agent accused him of “playing games” and said a drug might have to be used to get important information on possible future terrorist acts.

Scotland Yard is examining Reid’s links with radical Muslim clerics and their associates in London.

Reid, 28, was born in Bromley, south London. His father Robin was a small-time Jamaican criminal. His mother Lesley is English. They separated when Reid was four. Reid went to live with his aunt Madeline while attending Thomas Tallis school in Kidbrooke, southeast London.

Soon after leaving school Reid fell into a life of petty crime. A string of muggings led to two spells in Feltham young offenders’ institution, a notorious jail for “thugs”. It was there in the early 1990s that he converted to Islam.

The combination of an aimless life and broken family relations led Reid to Islam, according to his aunt. “He found his life so empty,” she said. “He was so lonely that he found solace with his Muslim brothers.”

His first experiences of Muslim life were in Brixton, where a moderate Salafi mosque holds its services in English in a two-storey house opposite the police station.

Abu Zakaria, a trustee of the mosque, said Reid’s visits had begun innocently. “At first he was quiet and quite a nice, pleasant guy. He would just come in, pray and then leave,” he said.

Abdul Hakk Baker, the mosque’s chairman, said: “By the end of 1998 he was asking questions such as: what was our view on terrorism and suicide bombing? Was (the West) a place of war? We said, ‘No, suicide bombing is not acceptable’.”

As his views became more extreme, Reid — by this time calling himself Abdul Rahim — grew a beard, began wearing Muslim dress and fell in with a group of extremists who met at Brixton town hall.

On a couple of occasions there were scuffles after members of the group tried to force their way into the mosque.Baker and Zakaria passed on their concerns to the police. But the targeting continued. “People like Abu Hamza, Abu Qatada and Abdullah El-Faisal would send their students and they would try and recruit people,” Zakaria said.

El-Faisal, a charismatic preacher of West Indian origin, left the mosque in the mid-1990s to teach at a school in north London. In 1997 Reid began mixing with radical Muslims who were advocates of El-Faisal’s teaching.

El-Faisal last week denied knowing Reid. He declined to condemn suicide bombings, although he emphasised that he did not support attacks on civilians. There is no suggestion that he supports terrorism, but Scotland Yard is said to be examining possible links between some of his followers and Reid. The FBI says he is one of several radical clerics whose preachings give cause for concern.

“There are any number of clerics up there in north London who have been activists in a radical way for some time. You can almost name your poison as to who Reid has been talking to,” said one agent.

Investigators say it is too early to link Reid directly to Zacarias Moussaoui, who is charged in America in connection with the September 11 plot. Moussaoui lived in Brixton before going to America last year to learn to fly commercial aircraft. Some reports suggest Reid was with Moussaoui at a terrorist camp in Afghanistan and that there are records of telephone calls between the two men.

With more than 4,000 Muslims in British jails and 130 imams employed to service them, Reid’s apparent recruitment in prison has caused considerable anxiety.

Last night Imam Abduljalil Sajid, a member of the National Council for the Welfare of Muslim Prisoners, said: “Time is getting short and things are getting out of hand, with undesirable imams still getting into prisons.”

Whatever Reid’s links to Al-Qaeda, the real fear among western security agencies is that his antics last weekend could herald a wave of similar attacks.

To add to worries about how vulnerable the skies might be to someone imitating Reid, it has also emerged that airports in Europe are failing to check passengers’ documents properly and are allowing bags on to flights without their owners, despite the apparent tightening of security since September 11.

Reporters travelling on the Continent have found lapses in security at airports in Germany and Belgium and at Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris, Reid’s departure point.

One reporter flew into Frankfurt airport from Kazakhstan on December 12 during a security alert. Customs officials questioned him over suspicions that he was carrying excess caviar. Despite his protests that his bag had gone on the plane ahead of him, they kept him back and he missed a connecting flight to Milan.

German border police, who control security at Frankfurt airport, said it was “normal procedure” to allow bags to travel on flights unattended. Kazakhstan was considered to have the same levels of security as a European airport and therefore they were confident that proper checks would have been made on the bag.

In 1988 Pan Am flight 103 was blown up over Lockerbie killing 270 people after a bomb hidden in a suitcase was put on the flight at Frankfurt airport without its owner.

Another reporter took a flight from Paris to San Francisco on United Airlines at the beginning of December. A strike by police meant passport control at Charles de Gaulle was inundated and the lone officer was waving through passengers with European Union passports.

Another reporter flying from Charleroi airport, Belgium, to Venice had neither her passport nor her boarding card checked.Further loopholes have been identified in a report by EU transport ministers. Earlier this month they found it was not compulsory to screen every piece of hold luggage in the 15 member states.

Comprehensive baggage screening throughout Europe will not be in place until the end of 2002. In addition, some airports have not yet introduced “security restricted areas” which stop passengers being passed weapons.

Measures approved by the ministers to improve security, including restricted areas, must come into force by the end of February. Other precautions include background security checks on all airport and airline staff and routine x-ray screening of aircrew.

Following Reid’s alleged attempted shoe bombing, transatlantic travellers setting off from Holland and Spain are having their shoes scanned, but in Britain only suspicious passengers are being targeted.

Security experts are sceptical that Reid’s shoe bomb would have been found without a thorough examination of the shoe itself. However, scanners are undergoing trials that can detect explosives by using either low-level radiation or chemical analysis of air blown gently past passengers.

The government has approved tests of a hand-held Millimetre Wave image scanner designed by QinetiQ, its former defence research arm, which uses radiation in the atmosphere to see through clothes and detect explosives.

However, in a sign that the high levels of alert in the immediate aftermath of September 11 have eased, Britain’s leading transatlantic airlines have dropped plans to improve security on flights with armed sky marshals.

Virgin Atlantic said: “We are not intending to put sky marshals on our flights; instead we intend to concentrate on preventing terrorists getting on board.”

British Airways said it had dropped the idea after serious concerns were raised over the introduction of firearms on flights and the need for the government to introduce legislation to allow this to happen.

Experts were not surprised by the airlines’ decision, despite the role of a sky marshal in first tracking Reid’s flight to Israel. Chris Yates, aviation security editor at Jane’s Transport, said: “Security is about discovering holes and plugging them before the terrorists spot them. Although holes are spotted, some airlines do not address them because of cost.”

The question now is whether any security measures would be sufficient to thwart those determined to break them, of whom there could be many. Zakaria said: “A lot of people who were with Reid (in Brixton) have disappeared. We don’t know where they have gone. It’s worrying.”

Additional reporting: Jonathon Carr-Brown; Uzi Mahnaimi in Tel Aviv, Tony Allen-Mills in Washington, Adam Nathan and Edin Hamzic in London; Philip Pangalos, Peter Semler, Susan Bell and Martin Jay<hr></blockquote>

[Barry Fields]

Yawn - rather long winded Guv - maybe just post the link next time huh and stop hogging the bandwidth.

Maybe this tosser lost his enthusiasm to meet Allah when it came close to crunch time and decided the best way out while saving face with his fellow psycho's would be to get caught "in the act".

[TheShadow]

extract only
IMPROVISED EXPLOSIVE
(NOT JUST TATP - TATP + PETN)


FBI agent Margaret Cronin testified Friday about the explosives, saying preliminary tests on Reid’s sneakers showed the presence of triacetone triperoxide, or TATP.
The substance can be manufactured from common chemicals such as acetone, peroxide and acid — and it has emerged in recent years as an improvised explosive for terrorist bombs, even though it is notoriously difficult to handle. TATP, sometimes referred to as “The Mother of Satan,” was used in last summer’s Tel Aviv disco bombing in which 21 people died.
Tests also turned up the presence of another high-explosive chemical called pentaerythritol tetranitrate, or PETN, U.S. officials told NBC News on condition of anonymity.
PETN is commercially available in blasting caps and detonator cords, and is useful for construction and military applications. But the substance can also be separated from such commercial products to create deadly plastic explosives, and terrorists have used it in that way for decades. PETN is a key ingredient in the Czech-made Semtex plastic explosive, which brought down Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988, killing 270 people.
Agence France-Presse reported Friday that Reid told the FBI he bought $1,500 worth of PETN explosive in Amsterdam. The report was attributed to unnamed French officials familiar with the investigation.
Reid was said to have found the sellers over the Internet, Agence France-Presse reported. The news agency said the FBI was contacting police in Belgium, France and the Netherlands to inform them of the Web danger, but an FBI spokeswoman in Washington denied that aspect of the report.
“We have not done that,” she told MSNBC.com on condition of anonymity.
U.S. officials told NBC News that the TATP would have served as the bomb’s detonator, and the PETN would have been the main charge. The PETN was mixed with petroleum jelly to form a putty-like substance, the officials said.

<a href="http://www.msnbc.com/news/676895.asp" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.com/news/676895.asp</a>

[The Guvnor]

<a href="http://www.newsandopinion.com/cols/thomas1.asp" target="_blank">Cal Thomas article on poor US airline security</a>

[brockenspectre]

I have flown with El Al and have visited Israel on tourist aircraft and what I have to commend is that the security is tight irrespective of the airline taken. I have no objection to being questioned - in fact I like that the airline/Israeli security care as much for my safety and well-being as I do for myself. Returning from FL in Oct on a Brit charter airline (I had been visiting friends and the flight for biz seating equiv was good value!!) I was shocked NOT to be searched NOT to have bags checked and to see that this tourist airport has way too few departure gates - two flights, departing within minutes of each other were routed through the same "corridor" and there were two security people - did they pay attention to the pax? no, they appeared to be discussing nail breakages!! In the UK the same airline departure procedure saw me frisked twice and once had my carry-on small bag emptied and the pockets/linings swept with a cloth that was then put into the explosive "sniffer" machine! On the outbound flight I felt secure on the way back just shocked at the lack of security! Visiting Disney (each time I am in FL my American friends and I "do" a theme park) I was also totally shocked by the lack of security - when I asked about the perfunctory check of bags I was told that Disney was afraid foreign visitors would be offended!! Excuse me? What is more offensive than failing to keep me safe??!!

Anyway...the world is now a different place from pre Sep 11, I just wish those with ability to make a difference would do so.

Oh and as a P.S. I understand that some of the younger security personnel in Israel are doing national service - maybe we in Europe should think of some deal where kids can get tuition paid if they give a year to acting as "eyes" at airports? Would help get unemployment down too!

:)

[SaturnV]

According to CNN, the maker of Shoeman's bomb is at large. Here is a January 10 update. Note the concern about bombs being secreted elsewhere on a person. I have wondered why, if Reid was part of a greater plot, he was not made to seem more ordinary (put a suit on him, give him checked luggage, do a better job on the passport, etc.) and not put forward someone who so matched a profile that it was almost as if the plotters were taunting (not testing) security.
____________________________________________

Shoe bomb suspect may have al Qaeda link
Sources: Bomb creator 'extraordinary professional'

By Sheila McVicar
CNN

"PARIS, France (CNN) --Suspected shoe bomber Richard Reid is a member of a previously unknown terrorist network that may have links to al Qaeda,
according to European investigators and intelligence sources.

"Reid is in U.S. custody for allegedly trying to ignite plastic explosives in his shoes aboard a U.S.-bound commercial flight last month. He told U.S. investigators he got the recipe for the shoe bomb off the Internet.

"European investigators and intelligence sources said they do not believe Reid made the explosives himself and that the bomb-maker remains at large.

"The investigators said they believe Reid was given the shoes containing the bombs only hours before he was scheduled to board an American Airlines flight from Paris to Miami.

"Other evidence has led investigators to conclude there is some kind of logistics base for the network in Europe where the explosives were manufactured.

"One source described the unknown bomb maker as an "extraordinary professional."

"One U.S. official also cited a possible connection between Reid and al Qaeda, the network run by Osama bin Laden.

""There is reason to believe Reid may have had links to al Qaeda," the U.S. official said.

"But the government said it does not yet have enough information.

""I am not in a position to tell you today based on that investigation that we can formally and strictly tie him to that group (al Qaeda)," said Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge. "There are some signs certainly pointing in that direction, but I will let the FBI make the final determination on that.""

"An FBI analysis of the shoes showed the bombs were made of two explosives -- a military explosive called PETN and a homemade explosive called TATP. Experts said they have not previously seen that combination.

"Reid, 28, a heavily traveled British citizen of Jamaican heritage, missed his original flight when airport security detained him to check him out. He was eventually cleared and caught American Airlines Flight 63 the next day, December 22.

"French police are urgently trying to retrace Reid's movement. A French anti-terrorism judge is so concerned he is now working the case full time.

"At Reid's arraignment late last month in Boston, an FBI agent said TATP is a highly volatile, heat-and friction-sensitive chemical.

"The agent told the court that if the shoe had exploded near the fuselage, it could have blown a hole in the aircraft. Reid was sitting in a window seat.

"One source said it was a fluke the sneakers did not explode.

""The crew and passengers on the plane avoided a catastrophe," the source said. "The next time, where will the explosive be? In a backpack strap? In a shoulder pad of a suit?""

[FLARE DAMIT]

BROCKENSPECTRE, with your attitude then we might as well get searched going into Tesco's or a Burger King. There has to be a balance some where and your over the top feelings are WAY to extreme. It's paramount to being held hostage by the small group of radicals. Life's a risk- live with it. I for one dont want to be frisked or asked a multitude of questions everytime i feel the need to shop or visit a high human density area. Get real and cut out the knee jerk reactions.

[tankermytanker]

I wasn't going to look at this topic until I saw the comment in parenthenses. Then when I saw there were 69 posts, I had have a peek.
Tank

[TowerDog]

Give wannabe rag-head Reid the "truth drug", or torture him or whatever it takes to get all the answers: Who made the bomb, etc.

Take the gloves off and get going on fighting terrorism, round up the rats, give 'em a token tribunal, then execute 'em.

[brain fade]

BROCKENSPECTRE, darling. i get the impression you'll not be happy til they are giving you a 'full cavity search' every time you try to get into asda! On a more serious note when are we going to face up to the fact that these nutters can't be stopped? Really, its an impossible task!
we have to make them stop feeling the need to behave as they are doing and get on with thier lives. There seems to be NO discussion in the press or elsewhere about the reasons for the current (and surely continuing) mess. We can all critisise the nutters, but if the jews had settled in my, or your country, we might be fighting the fight ourselves!
Meantime, in the absence of a solution to the 'palestinian' problem, i say nutters like richard should be treated fairly.
ie. if he wins we die, if he gets caught, he dies. its only fair

[Idunno]

You guys are obviously unaware of the fact that the concept of 'being searched before you go into ASDA' is one that was already tried on 'British' soil.
Between the early '70s and late '80s every person entering the city centre of Belfast had to go through body search/ metal detectors at the security barriers which had been constructed to encircle the entire downtown area.
Once inside, every major shop and department store then had further bag searches/ metal detectors at the front doors.

The bombs still got through.

[MachOverspeed]

Just my opinion, but I think the only way to "solve" this terrorist problem is the liberal application of thermonuclear weaponry.

Make the price for sponsoring terrorism so steep that even madmen wouldn't want to pay it.

Give them terror, in return for terror given, on a scale which they cannot hope to match.

No amount of searching bags, nor any number of security guards, or dollars spent on x-ray machines will prevent terrorists from doing their evil work.

The certainty of utter and total annihilation will.

[mutt]

Machoverspeed,

May I suggest that you review the history of the Middle East and the role played by the USA before asking for some country to get nuked!

Mutt.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Sorry, but this thread is diverging well away from anything aeronautical and the place for all the politics isn't here.

Feel free to debate all the other issues at <a href="http://www.pprune.org/images/duh1.gif" target="_blank">www.letsnukeeveryoneexceptus.com</a>.
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">