What would you do??

[msr001]

You are a FO and the Capt starts to repetitively kick hard on the rudder pedals to make the CC working in the galley fall. All this whilst cruising FL 410 at Mach .79!!
Just imagine how would it feel at the very rear of the aircraft. Tell me about metal fatigue after the rather big rudder on a B737NG gets exposed to that tremendous air loads not to mention the cables moving it.
On another occasion and out of being bored, he starts swinging the control column back and forth to give a turbulance effect. so much for passenger comfort.
It's really sad that after reporting this to the Chief Pilot no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.

[EastCoaster]

Wasn't it excessive rudder inputs that brought down the AA Airbus over Queens, NY in October 2001?

Methinks your employer has a potentially very serious problem on their hands with this cowboy; and if they (or their representative) have shown unwillingness to take the appropriate action in preventing a serious incident or worse, then perhaps somebody should be sidestepping the regular chain of command and going straight to the top. Failing that there's always the possibility of a confidential report to the relevant Regulator.

I certainly wouldn't like to have it on my conscience if something were to happen and know that a catastrophe could've been prevented if only I'd passed on the info to the right person in a timely fashion!

[Daysleeper]

Control inputs should be recorded on the system used for flight data monitoring. Should be fairly easy for the company to confirm if this is really happening and if so to do something about it.

[GlueBall]

Jerking the flight controls and kicking the rudder of a transport category airplane constitutes "wreckless operation" of an airplane. As had already been proven during the A306 crash at JFK, it's a life threatening event that should be reported to the Civil Aviation Department. :eek:

[msr001]

Thankyou all for your replies, as I said that was reprted to the Chief Pilot. the fact that he did nothing was an obvious clue that niether would the managment.
And it´s out of my fear of a serious incident that I posted this thread asking your opinion.
Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment, although this wouldnt go down easily at my company.....
a bunch of rookies cant just start aninvestigation not to mention deceplinary action against such experienced Capt. I really wonder why they bother teaching us CRM.

[Non-PC Plod]

I dont know which country you operate from, but do you have a confidential reporting system to your authority/ flight operations inspectorate? If someone is cracking down on this sort of behaviour from the outside, the company wil have to be seen to be doing something, rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet.

[powerstall]

If you're company utilizes the FOMS for eg, Airbus operators, you could make a report and have the safety department check the incident, the event would be recorded and it would identify which control input and who made the input. but then again... you may have gained a point with the management... but against your peers.... :suspect::oh:

[low n' slow]

Get rid of him any way you see possible. There are filters all along the route to becoming a pilot that sees to it that no bad seeds actually make it on to the line. If the odd one should pass through all these filters (flight school, interviews, skilltests, PC/LPC...) it is up to either the colleagues or the linechecking system to make sure that that person is removed. I think it speaks for itself, that type of behaviour would never arise if being supervised on for example a line check so it is then up to you as a F/O to relay the information.

You said you tried your chief of flight operations without success. I would then consider writing what we call an occurence report (one that goes beyond the internal auditing system and files a copy directly with the CAA). To me it sounds like an urgent issue so I would also try and call the CAA to highlight the filed report. It's no fun but it is our duty. I've had a similar incident (although it was not intentional recklessness, only pure incompetence) and I was successful with keeping it in house so to speak, but I would have had no problems with taking it to the CAA.

/LnS

[Brian Abraham]

kick hard on the rudder pedals to make the CC working in the galley fall
Find it a bit hard to believe that the pax sitting at the back of the tube would not have complained about the quality of the ride if this were the case. :suspect:

[msr001]

And how would the pax know that it wasn't just turbulance? They can't complain that the ride was "bumpy".

[msr001]

That's so true, peer pressure can be tough.

[Bealzebub]

If this has happened, not only would it constitute gross negligence and reckless endangerment, but it might also suggest a serious mental impairment on the part of the pilot responsible.

There is one question that I raise out of curiosity though.

In your initial post on this subject you stated that: no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.

Then in a later post you stated: Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment

My question is, if you need to ask other F/O's if this has happened to them, on what do you base your original assertion that this " Capt still does these foolish acts", on ?

[411A]

A wind-up, perhaps?:}

[flash8]

I find it difficult to believe an individual would act in such a reckless dangerous manner.

If this happens to be true, then it is YOUR responsibility to report this matter even if it means pulling the QAR yourself :eek:

[BelArgUSA]

Look at a few facts -
A F/O word going against a captain's "superior" experience, seniority and status...?
Generally does not work too well. Some captains can get away with murder.
Chief pilot might have a few beers with that captain at the pub once a week.
Wish you had a flight engineer. In the old days, F/Os and F/Es could report facts together.
So, that F/O should not try to go at it "alone"...
xxx
Get name/phone number of all F/Os who flew with him recently.
Call them and discuss the matter.
Are other F/Os saying same facts about that captain...?
Are they willing to make an individual report to the chief pilot...?
A dozen of written reports from various F/Os would help.
Reports should include name of cabin staff on these flights.
xxx
The F/Os should refuse to fly with him, and mention that fact in the written report.
The only decent "weapon" F/Os have. "I request not to fly with Captain X..."
Start report with the famous sentence "In the interest of flight safety..."
xxx
:*
Happy contrails

[cortilla]

Ouch, this one sounds like a real toughie. During the flight itself i would try to make some sort of comment, even if quietly so something is recorded on the CVR, to cover yourself at the very least if the worst was to happen (let's hope not).

Next i would talk to a senior captain at my own base ( a TRI/TRE or even your base captain) or any other captain that you feel you could confide in.

Next up contact fleet captain, chief pilot or flight safety department.

If you have one, contact your union rep or call your union's legal department

finally if none of that works contact your local aviation authority. They can demand FDM recordings if they have a problem with what's happening.

Whatever you do, DO NOT STAY QUIET, get something done about it!!!!

[Bealzebub]

There is one question that I raise out of curiosity though.

In your initial post on this subject you stated that: no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.

Then in a later post you stated: Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment

My question is, if you need to ask other F/O's if this has happened to them, on what do you base your original assertion that this " Capt still does these foolish acts", on ?


Still curious?

[msr001]

Ok Bealzebub, since you insist, I'll explain..

Our company employed new Capts and FOs on type (B737), and as you might excpect new FOs fly with more experienced old Captains and vice versa.
That particular Capt happenes to be one of the old ones and I am one of the old FOs.
That incident with me didn't happen last week, it's been a while now (before we had new Capts and FOs), and right after the Chief Pilot "decision" not to schedule us together I talked with a couple of my friends who told me that they too witnessed the same Bizarre actions.
But now none of us old guys fly with him because he is always scheduled to fly with new FOs.
So now if I want to take action I can't make my claim on old info. I have to ask the new guys if that had happened/still happens with them. In that case maybe we can meet with the upper managment and thay can back me/us up with more recent statments.
I hope your curiosity is satisfied now:)

[msr001]

Might have just said i knew from Cabin Crew :cool:

[Bealzebub]

Might have just said i knew from Cabin Crew :cool:

Why ? I can't understand why you would alude to a reply if it were not the case. It was the seeming inconsistency in your two statements that raised the question.

If an individual was behaving in this manner it is difficult to believe any First Officer would not be bringing it to the attention of Senior personell within the company. A Captain who attempts to cause injury to the cabin crew? A Captain who recklessly endangers the aircraft and all of its occupants? An airline whose First Officers (other than yourself) make no mention of this to anybody?

In any event if this individual is actually behaving in this manner his actions would be totaly unacceptable. I mentioned in an earlier post that such behaviour might be as result of mental instability or impairment, however if you (or others) did not report each and every instance of this behaviour then your action or lack of it might well be criminal in the event that the behaviour was allowed to continue to a serious incident or accident.

In my experience F/O's and Captains are not shy about discussing the behaviour of others whose operation or character they find unusual, bizzare or unacceptable. Why have your friends not reported their observations? If this is a cultural issue, it is clearly one that is potentially fatal and one you and your friends should address with more urgency than is being shown here.

I have to say msr001, this has disturbing overtones of msr990 ?

[SNS3Guppy]

If it's already been taken to the chief pilot, I would normally say your involvement ends there. However, if you still feel compelled to act, then perhaps your pilot group, union, or organization has a pro standards committee with whom you can discuss your concern?

[Pugilistic Animus]

there is no more hazardous a maneuver than sudden control reversals in an airplane ---the certifcation requirements do not even consider that--as resonance may develop and quickly result in a catastrophic failure even on a Pitts special or an extra or an f-22 or a cub or a 737---and even at or below Va ---your collegues have given excellent suggestions --I just want to- again- remind everyone that no airplane is certified for such abuse --as for further comment from me on this issue:oh:

PA:*

[Miles Gustaph]

Good subject, and some dam good discussion points here, although the answer is ever so simply, report it to your National Airworthiness Authority, while these threads are being read and your thinking about your position who is this fool going to kill?

Don’t think report…

[CAT1]

Think I would be tempted to get the fire axe out..............

[Pugilistic Animus]

ah yes ... the crash axe how could I have possibly forgotten that:E


Lester

[Vee1Kut]

This could only happen in the airlines......or be considered acceptable, or possible..as a consequence of their hiring practices..and union protection....Had this happened on a corporate jet, pilots would have been fired, and I would be doing the subsequent flights untill either A) I was offerered the position b) they found suitable replacements.

[flipster]

001,

First of all, get good advice from your union!

But have you recently tried speaking to this captain 'mano-a-mano' (no gender implications!) - in a non-threatening and open manner?

If not, you may wish to consider this option before doing anything else. I say this, as going down the CAA/FAA/ASR/MOR etc route is fraught with problems - not least of which is that you depend on your current chief pilot (whom you will be openly criticising) for your continued employment and eventually command assessment. If you get known as a trouble-maker, your position gets awkward. (Been there, done that!) However, your conscience might dictate that you do have to take it further, as the risk of saying nothing and then this captain killing a plane load of passengers, would not be pleasant knowledge with which to live.

If you get to speak to the capt in question, apologise for going behind his/her back directly to the Chief Pilot but also mention your genuine safety concerns and the collection of evidence (once you have other FO's and CCs statements). Then ask him (politely) to desist from his inexplicable control inputs - if only for a/c structural-integrity reasons. However, firmly and calmly state that if he continues in his ways, then you (and others) will be left with no alternative but to take it outside the company. (Assertive behaviour in practice?) A witness to this conversation might be a good idea - the union might help here - especially if they represent the captain too?

I don't wish to pre-judge this captain but you may get nowhere with this approach but it is far less contfrontational and gives him a way out - a win-win situation for both parties and, at least, you will have tried. This will be in your favour, especially if it gets nasty later. However, if you do go this far, you might want to start quietly looking for alternative employment as the chief pilot (and possibly the captain) may have friends in the training dept who can ensure your life is a misery and command will become but a dream in your present company.

Failing that, the crash axe also get my vote!

Good Luck:ok::ok:

flipster

[Miles Gustaph]

Again, good discussion points.... whats wrong with anonymous reporting to the authorities????

Or are we going to be starting a thread that says, "I should have reported it before someone died."

The perceived reluctance to report issues is somewhat inconsistent with modern safety teaching and what is expected of us as professionals in an industry where if we make a mistake we can kill people.

[gary822]

As a 145 QM I would want to know what was going on when the tapes of the flights where downloaded. ( I assume they are on the 737) As the QM I would be asking some awkward questions to operations as to what was happening on these flights. Have you spoke to your maintenance QM? we are approcable and can help and support on issues like this as it is our techies signing for the plane and saying it is servicable, but if we dont get facts from crew it is your lives on the line.

failing that the old fashioned corrective education session around the back of the hangar can be very soothing.

[flying cat]

having read the thread on a certain middle eastern airline on the middle east forums i think maybe the person experiencing this problem may have no recourse to normal reporting channels

[NutLoose]

In a strange way it reminds me of the case here

Industry CRM Developers - Situational Awareness Management Course Outline (http://www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm)

it involved a B52 pilot and eventually the only people that would fly with him were senior officers as everyone else refused to and he eventually took them all to their graves.....

[Old Smokey]

Diverging a little from the general flow of discussion..................

I accurately recall about 30 years ago a report of an American captain who partook of similar inexplicable and dangerous activities. He was previously a well experienced, professional, and cautious pilot. The change was fairly rapid.

Several F/Os did report his activities, and to the credit of the airline management, fully investigated the matter, including psychological evaluation.

He had a rapidly developing brain tumor, which was, fortunately, successfully removed. After surgery, his behaviour became normal again.

The original poster has stated that both he and the captain are "old-timers". I'd like to ask, was his behaviour always like this, or is it a recent development?

I have long ago discarded the original report, I'd be interested to know if anyone still has access to information on this case. It was quoted in many airline's safety journals at the time.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[flipster]

Miles,

In reality, there is rarely such thing as 'anonymous reporting' for the simple fact that the reported person probably knows who did the reporting - and they can/will then undermine the reportee's position with their employers. As I suggest, a direct and open approach leading to a win-win situation is possibly the reporter's best bet. Failing that, I agree that reporting the perpetrator is the reportees only recourse because saying nothing is not an option - esp in this case. If reporting is necessary - have the door to escape tunnel well and truly open!

flipster

[pilot999]

I think that this is some snotty fo just trying to get his command a bit quicker,

[bfisk]

Stop that,
stop that,
my controls.

Chief pilot,
company quality system,
authorities.


Edit: of course in the tactful manner that this rather awkward situation requires. Talking to him, talking about it, fill in the rest. Point is not to let your skipper screw up just because he's the skipper. That is in fact pretty much the only thing I'm paid to do.

[Piltdown Man]

msr001 - You have had plenty of input here. How about you telling us the country of registration and that of the operator. This has a bearing on which route you take to fix your/our problem - and let's face it, you are now "honour bound" to do something. None of want to hear that the rudder has fallen an aircraft or cabin crew/passengers have been injured.

PM

[john_tullamarine]

Let's leave the operator out of it unless you can provide evidence to substantiate the matter ... or it is already in the public domain elsewhere.