What would you do??
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Around
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What would you do??
You are a FO and the Capt starts to repetitively kick hard on the rudder pedals to make the CC working in the galley fall. All this whilst cruising FL 410 at Mach .79!!
Just imagine how would it feel at the very rear of the aircraft. Tell me about metal fatigue after the rather big rudder on a B737NG gets exposed to that tremendous air loads not to mention the cables moving it.
On another occasion and out of being bored, he starts swinging the control column back and forth to give a turbulance effect. so much for passenger comfort.
It's really sad that after reporting this to the Chief Pilot no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.
Just imagine how would it feel at the very rear of the aircraft. Tell me about metal fatigue after the rather big rudder on a B737NG gets exposed to that tremendous air loads not to mention the cables moving it.
On another occasion and out of being bored, he starts swinging the control column back and forth to give a turbulance effect. so much for passenger comfort.
It's really sad that after reporting this to the Chief Pilot no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: There's no place like home!
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't it excessive rudder inputs that brought down the AA Airbus over Queens, NY in October 2001?
Methinks your employer has a potentially very serious problem on their hands with this cowboy; and if they (or their representative) have shown unwillingness to take the appropriate action in preventing a serious incident or worse, then perhaps somebody should be sidestepping the regular chain of command and going straight to the top. Failing that there's always the possibility of a confidential report to the relevant Regulator.
I certainly wouldn't like to have it on my conscience if something were to happen and know that a catastrophe could've been prevented if only I'd passed on the info to the right person in a timely fashion!
Methinks your employer has a potentially very serious problem on their hands with this cowboy; and if they (or their representative) have shown unwillingness to take the appropriate action in preventing a serious incident or worse, then perhaps somebody should be sidestepping the regular chain of command and going straight to the top. Failing that there's always the possibility of a confidential report to the relevant Regulator.
I certainly wouldn't like to have it on my conscience if something were to happen and know that a catastrophe could've been prevented if only I'd passed on the info to the right person in a timely fashion!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Control inputs should be recorded on the system used for flight data monitoring. Should be fairly easy for the company to confirm if this is really happening and if so to do something about it.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UTC +8
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jerking the flight controls and kicking the rudder of a transport category airplane constitutes "wreckless operation" of an airplane. As had already been proven during the A306 crash at JFK, it's a life threatening event that should be reported to the Civil Aviation Department. 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Around
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thankyou all for your replies, as I said that was reprted to the Chief Pilot. the fact that he did nothing was an obvious clue that niether would the managment.
And itīs out of my fear of a serious incident that I posted this thread asking your opinion.
Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment, although this wouldnt go down easily at my company.....
a bunch of rookies cant just start aninvestigation not to mention deceplinary action against such experienced Capt. I really wonder why they bother teaching us CRM.
And itīs out of my fear of a serious incident that I posted this thread asking your opinion.
Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment, although this wouldnt go down easily at my company.....
a bunch of rookies cant just start aninvestigation not to mention deceplinary action against such experienced Capt. I really wonder why they bother teaching us CRM.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I dont know which country you operate from, but do you have a confidential reporting system to your authority/ flight operations inspectorate? If someone is cracking down on this sort of behaviour from the outside, the company wil have to be seen to be doing something, rather than trying to sweep it under the carpet.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Behind You.....
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're company utilizes the FOMS for eg, Airbus operators, you could make a report and have the safety department check the incident, the event would be recorded and it would identify which control input and who made the input. but then again... you may have gained a point with the management... but against your peers.... 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Scandiland
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Get rid of him any way you see possible. There are filters all along the route to becoming a pilot that sees to it that no bad seeds actually make it on to the line. If the odd one should pass through all these filters (flight school, interviews, skilltests, PC/LPC...) it is up to either the colleagues or the linechecking system to make sure that that person is removed. I think it speaks for itself, that type of behaviour would never arise if being supervised on for example a line check so it is then up to you as a F/O to relay the information.
You said you tried your chief of flight operations without success. I would then consider writing what we call an occurence report (one that goes beyond the internal auditing system and files a copy directly with the CAA). To me it sounds like an urgent issue so I would also try and call the CAA to highlight the filed report. It's no fun but it is our duty. I've had a similar incident (although it was not intentional recklessness, only pure incompetence) and I was successful with keeping it in house so to speak, but I would have had no problems with taking it to the CAA.
/LnS
You said you tried your chief of flight operations without success. I would then consider writing what we call an occurence report (one that goes beyond the internal auditing system and files a copy directly with the CAA). To me it sounds like an urgent issue so I would also try and call the CAA to highlight the filed report. It's no fun but it is our duty. I've had a similar incident (although it was not intentional recklessness, only pure incompetence) and I was successful with keeping it in house so to speak, but I would have had no problems with taking it to the CAA.
/LnS
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kick hard on the rudder pedals to make the CC working in the galley fall
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If this has happened, not only would it constitute gross negligence and reckless endangerment, but it might also suggest a serious mental impairment on the part of the pilot responsible.
There is one question that I raise out of curiosity though.
In your initial post on this subject you stated that:
Then in a later post you stated:
My question is, if you need to ask other F/O's if this has happened to them, on what do you base your original assertion that this " Capt still does these foolish acts", on ?
There is one question that I raise out of curiosity though.
In your initial post on this subject you stated that:
no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.
Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment
I find it difficult to believe an individual would act in such a reckless dangerous manner.
If this happens to be true, then it is YOUR responsibility to report this matter even if it means pulling the QAR yourself
If this happens to be true, then it is YOUR responsibility to report this matter even if it means pulling the QAR yourself
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: AEP
Age: 80
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain has bad breath...
Look at a few facts -
A F/O word going against a captain's "superior" experience, seniority and status...?
Generally does not work too well. Some captains can get away with murder.
Chief pilot might have a few beers with that captain at the pub once a week.
Wish you had a flight engineer. In the old days, F/Os and F/Es could report facts together.
So, that F/O should not try to go at it "alone"...
xxx
Get name/phone number of all F/Os who flew with him recently.
Call them and discuss the matter.
Are other F/Os saying same facts about that captain...?
Are they willing to make an individual report to the chief pilot...?
A dozen of written reports from various F/Os would help.
Reports should include name of cabin staff on these flights.
xxx
The F/Os should refuse to fly with him, and mention that fact in the written report.
The only decent "weapon" F/Os have. "I request not to fly with Captain X..."
Start report with the famous sentence "In the interest of flight safety..."
xxx
Happy contrails
A F/O word going against a captain's "superior" experience, seniority and status...?
Generally does not work too well. Some captains can get away with murder.
Chief pilot might have a few beers with that captain at the pub once a week.
Wish you had a flight engineer. In the old days, F/Os and F/Es could report facts together.
So, that F/O should not try to go at it "alone"...
xxx
Get name/phone number of all F/Os who flew with him recently.
Call them and discuss the matter.
Are other F/Os saying same facts about that captain...?
Are they willing to make an individual report to the chief pilot...?
A dozen of written reports from various F/Os would help.
Reports should include name of cabin staff on these flights.
xxx
The F/Os should refuse to fly with him, and mention that fact in the written report.
The only decent "weapon" F/Os have. "I request not to fly with Captain X..."
Start report with the famous sentence "In the interest of flight safety..."
xxx
Happy contrails
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: slightly left of you
Age: 43
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ouch, this one sounds like a real toughie. During the flight itself i would try to make some sort of comment, even if quietly so something is recorded on the CVR, to cover yourself at the very least if the worst was to happen (let's hope not).
Next i would talk to a senior captain at my own base ( a TRI/TRE or even your base captain) or any other captain that you feel you could confide in.
Next up contact fleet captain, chief pilot or flight safety department.
If you have one, contact your union rep or call your union's legal department
finally if none of that works contact your local aviation authority. They can demand FDM recordings if they have a problem with what's happening.
Whatever you do, DO NOT STAY QUIET, get something done about it!!!!
Next i would talk to a senior captain at my own base ( a TRI/TRE or even your base captain) or any other captain that you feel you could confide in.
Next up contact fleet captain, chief pilot or flight safety department.
If you have one, contact your union rep or call your union's legal department
finally if none of that works contact your local aviation authority. They can demand FDM recordings if they have a problem with what's happening.
Whatever you do, DO NOT STAY QUIET, get something done about it!!!!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is one question that I raise out of curiosity though.
In your initial post on this subject you stated that:
Then in a later post you stated:
My question is, if you need to ask other F/O's if this has happened to them, on what do you base your original assertion that this " Capt still does these foolish acts", on ?
Still curious?
In your initial post on this subject you stated that:
no action was taken other than a written notice to the roastring dept. saying not to schedule them together... But that Capt still does these foolish acts.
Maybe I should ask other FOs if that had happened with them too and if so we can all go and report it to the upper managment
Still curious?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Around
Age: 45
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok Bealzebub, since you insist, I'll explain..
Our company employed new Capts and FOs on type (B737), and as you might excpect new FOs fly with more experienced old Captains and vice versa.
That particular Capt happenes to be one of the old ones and I am one of the old FOs.
That incident with me didn't happen last week, it's been a while now (before we had new Capts and FOs), and right after the Chief Pilot "decision" not to schedule us together I talked with a couple of my friends who told me that they too witnessed the same Bizarre actions.
But now none of us old guys fly with him because he is always scheduled to fly with new FOs.
So now if I want to take action I can't make my claim on old info. I have to ask the new guys if that had happened/still happens with them. In that case maybe we can meet with the upper managment and thay can back me/us up with more recent statments.
I hope your curiosity is satisfied now
Our company employed new Capts and FOs on type (B737), and as you might excpect new FOs fly with more experienced old Captains and vice versa.
That particular Capt happenes to be one of the old ones and I am one of the old FOs.
That incident with me didn't happen last week, it's been a while now (before we had new Capts and FOs), and right after the Chief Pilot "decision" not to schedule us together I talked with a couple of my friends who told me that they too witnessed the same Bizarre actions.
But now none of us old guys fly with him because he is always scheduled to fly with new FOs.
So now if I want to take action I can't make my claim on old info. I have to ask the new guys if that had happened/still happens with them. In that case maybe we can meet with the upper managment and thay can back me/us up with more recent statments.
I hope your curiosity is satisfied now
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Might have just said i knew from Cabin Crew 
If an individual was behaving in this manner it is difficult to believe any First Officer would not be bringing it to the attention of Senior personell within the company. A Captain who attempts to cause injury to the cabin crew? A Captain who recklessly endangers the aircraft and all of its occupants? An airline whose First Officers (other than yourself) make no mention of this to anybody?
In any event if this individual is actually behaving in this manner his actions would be totaly unacceptable. I mentioned in an earlier post that such behaviour might be as result of mental instability or impairment, however if you (or others) did not report each and every instance of this behaviour then your action or lack of it might well be criminal in the event that the behaviour was allowed to continue to a serious incident or accident.
In my experience F/O's and Captains are not shy about discussing the behaviour of others whose operation or character they find unusual, bizzare or unacceptable. Why have your friends not reported their observations? If this is a cultural issue, it is clearly one that is potentially fatal and one you and your friends should address with more urgency than is being shown here.
I have to say msr001, this has disturbing overtones of msr990 ?